How about a 3-yr moratorium on ALL immigration?

[cantstandbush]

Nobody wants to talk about those "guest workers" who come here and actually take good paying jobs that Americans ARE willing to take and ARE qualified to take. Just ask those struggling med research students and pre-med students.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. I like those immigrants even better than the illegal ones.

Here's a crazy idea. How about we keep all immigrants, kick out the minutemen.

[muntrv]

2. Those immigrants are actually skilled,

unlike the illegals.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Let's see you pick lettuce

for sixteen hours a day.

[MichiganVote]

4. But...but...who will wash my car? Mow my lawn? Wash my sheets?

Watch my kids? Burn my burger? Clean my floors? Pick my produce? Play my sports? Drive my trucks? Butcher my hogs?

For 50% less per hour than legal citizens?

[mzteris]

5. and do it better

and more reliably and more honestly. . .

[MichiganVote]

7. One can only imagine what the very senior citizens, most of them male,

who built our bridges, paved our roads, picked out our mines and so on and so forth during the Depression, while building the railroads, settlements in the West, blasting away roadways through the Rockies.....

Back then, Americans and immigrants worked together. Now? Our Corporate Congress has damned both.

[mzteris]

9. divide and conquer

it worked for the earliest "Americans" (before there was an America) when they deemed African American indentured servants as "slaves" and white indentured servants were still allowed to redeem their freedom.

Before the artificially applied division - all indentured servants were working together to demand better working conditions.

[Strelnikov_]

10. Oh, Yes. All Legal Citizens Are Inefficient, Dishonest Goldbrickers

Unfuckingbelieveable.

[mzteris]

12. yeah, you are.........

what you said. ;)

The POINT is, my friend, that all illegals aren't the "scary people" some think they are.

*most* "illegals" that I have known DO work harder, longer, faster, (more than one job, live on less) and are much more honest and do a better days work than *most* "amurkhin citizens" I know who are "qualified" to do the same kind of work.

When you consider that "illegals" are doing the jobs that most "educated/trained" Amurhkins can't or won't do (yeah, you heard me right, and I know whereof I speak) - and that the Amurkhins who DO "have to do" that "type of work" are (for the most part) lowlife scumbags and/or lazy mf's - then yeah - what you said.

[Strelnikov_]

13. Won't Do, Because They Do Not Pay A Living Wage

I never expected to find this kind of view regarding the working class of this country on a progressive board.

How low we have sunk.

[Cobalt Violet]

15. I know. People like that make me not want to come here anymore.

[mzteris]

16. ok - so why blame

people who can and will do the work because the "less than living wage" is still way more than they can possibly make "at home"?

It's the corporations, not the people.

[RB TexLa]

22. And I never expected to hear such about people trying to better

their lives (actually the lives of their children in most cases) on this board. So you will not work without the full protection of the laws of the federal and state governments to protect you. I guess you would starve to death if you were not able to work in safe conditions or without being paid 1 1/2 times an hourly rate if you had to work a 41st hour in a week. I do hope at least the air is better with your nose pointed that high.

Most immigrant families I know are usually working for one thing, their children. Many of whom are born here and thusly American citizens.

As far as how "low we have sunk," at least I am assured of never sinking as low as you.

[Strelnikov_]

31. What Are You Talking About?

Show me one post I made where I in any way made a derogatory remark concerning immigrants?

I was simply responding to a post that seemed to lump all working class Americans in a very negative way, starting off with the Corporatist jingoism 'Jobs Americans Won't Do'.

Meanwhile, you seem to be celebrating the labor black market, and denigrating me for not.

I think.

I really have no idea.

[greendog]

14. mzteris, could you clarify something for me?

Do you really believe "that the Amurkhins who DO "have to do" that "type of work" are (for the most part) lowlife scumbags and/or lazy mf's?"

If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that the majority of American citizens who hold unskilled and semi-skilled jobs are, in your opinion, morally deficient.

[mzteris]

18. All I know

are the experiences I have had.

YMMV.

While not, not all American "citizens" who hold unskilled or semi-skilled jobs are "morally deficient" - it seems, to me, that the majority those with whom I have come in contact with in the last 15 years have significantly more issues than immigrants (who may or may not have been illegal).

I've been in HR in various settings - mfg, university (encompassing EVERY type job imaginable), wholesale, etc - and I'm here to tell you that those I have seen apply for jobs, doing jobs, counseled, fired, promoted - well - there does seem to be a pattern of behaviour.

The "immigrants" - overwhelmingly - were more reliable - they came to work everyday, on time. They did their jobs properly. They didn't come into work in an impaired state due to drugs or alcohol. They worked hard and wanted to learn more so they could advance.

The non-immigrants - had more issues that kept them from being hired in the first place (drugs, arrests, poor work records, etc.) and, if hired, were more often the ones to be late, to leave early, to cut corners, to do a poor job, to complain about "unfair treatment" (when there wasn't), to fail drug tests, to just not show up, to get arrested, to ---- well you get the picture.

I'm not making judgements, just observations. These are factual observations.

What does this mean?

You tell me.

[mccoyn]

19. But you are saying lazy workers are morally deficient.

Actually, your words were "lowlife scumbags and/or lazy mf's". Since when has it been a virtue to be hard working? Work is, always has been and always will be an ends to a means. Anyone who chooses to work poorly to be paid poorly is fine in my book.

Employers aren't entitled to hard working employees, they have to attract them by paying better wages and benefits. When you offer the lowest you can legally offer guess what you get?

You are only blaming the laziests citizens as an excuse for exploiting illegal immigrants. The problem isn't that Americans are lazy, just that you aren't willing to pay a compititive wage for hard working Americans.

[mzteris]

21. Boy this is spiraling totally out of control

rapidly, isn't it?

I DON"T advocate exploiting illegal immigrants.

I DON"T think "all lazy people" are morally deficient. Many have undiagnosed mh issues, actually.

DON"T put words in my mouth.

DON"T take a comment out of context that was applicable to one particular situation and apply it across the board and try to make it sound like I'm some sort of monster. Give me a freakin break.

I believe in a living wage. I believe in legal immigration - but I certainly understand WHY people immigrate illegally. (And I most certainly and fervidly believe that THIS COUNTRY's GOV'T has always manipulated immigration to serve their own purposes. Good job market and not enough people, open the gates. Economy going sour? Crack down on the immigrants.)

I don't believe in exploitation of anyone, period - be they immigrant, the uneducated, or otherwise disadvantaged.

I didn't set pay scales. I didn't create the jobs. I tried my best to hire people who wanted a job and who would do it WELL. I tried my best to create an environment of respect. I did any and everything I could to improve their working conditions to the best of my ability.

Unfortunately corporate America will do as little as they have to do and if the pressure gets too great in this country they will OUTSOURCE the jobs to another country as a way around complying with regulations in THIS country.

What steams me is people BLAMING "illegal immigrants" - or indeed it seems on DU ANY immigrants (read NOT Amurhkin) - for taking these jobs. If you had to live in the conditions many of these people came from, you'd "do anything", too, in order to survive.

What's that old saying? We have the richest poor people in the world. MANY Americans seem to think they're ENTITLED to a house and a car and cell phone and $200 tennis shoes and $100 jeans and a color tv.

Many immigrants are coming from areas where there isn't even water you can safely drink without boiling first. They're grateful for a job and the prove it by doing it well.

Too many Americans have been fed the lie that they shouldn't have to sweat and get dirty. Too many want a corporate job with a company car and an expense account. They don't want to get their hands dirty. They don't want to "work hard". They want a clean job. with executive fringes.

The fact remains that many of the "Americans" who were applying for the un/low-skilled labor jobs that I was hiring for had significant *issues*.

[mccoyn]

27. Alright, I appoligize.

I've been in your situation before where every rebuttal is taken the wrong way and I look worse and worse (and less and less like myself).

It sounds like we have many of the same views and goals on the immigration issue.

[mzteris]

32. Thank you!

Wow, I was afraid to even look at "My DU" this am........

I admit the night I wrote the original response I was tired and very out-of-sorts and particularly upset with my son's birthmom who had just happened to call that day. She's one of the chronically unemployed and of course it's NEVER her fault when she gets fired or not hired. (sigh)

[pitohui]

24. yes i have to hear it every day

you are using more words than they use IRL but it's the same old song

"we have to hire illegals because blacks won't work"

every racist tells me he is just making "factual observations"

every damn one

[mzteris]

33. ROFLMAO

you're calling *me* a racist? Am I hearing you right?

Wow, my black son will be so surprised...........

[MelliMel]

6. Hm. I do all those on my own.

Funny how it's possible to wash your own car, take care of your own kids, and cook your own food.

And if you really want to avoid pesticides and toher assorted nasties - grown your own garden.

[MichiganVote]

8. Yup. Me too. And scores of others at all income levels.

[SammyWinstonJack]

17. So do I, well except for picking "produce and butching hogs" part that is

:shrug:

[pitohui]

25. me too mel

must be nice to be able to hire all those servants cheaply but how is getting cheap labor a democratic issue, let the GOP fight for the right to hire low paid labor, why are people here fighting for the reagan/bush agenda to import foreign slaves

[mdmc]

11. nah

we just need to change the laws to allow open immigration.

[treestar]

20. As to family based immigrants it would just be cruel

As to employment based immigrants, it would be interesting to see the effects on our economy.

Some of us might actually have to become immigrants to other countries.

[BlooInBloo]

23. I thought those were visas, and not actually immigration?

And I thought there already was a tightening of the work visas?

[Tansy_Gold]

26. Isn't there already a moratorium on

illegal immigration?

So then, would a moratorium on all immigration, including legal immigration, make all immigration illegal?

And don't we already have lots of illegal immigration despite a moratorium against it?

Am I confused, or is this just nonsense?


Just so anyone who cares knows where I stand --

Mother Nature didn't paint lines on the Earth. We're all one people. I say, let them come in whoever wants to come in. Let them apply for citizenship, let them join unions, let them be protected by the (wage and labor) laws that already (sort of) protect the rest of us. Let them pay taxes and receive benefits.

The truth is, the businesses and other haves don't want to stop illegal immigration, because they get all kinds of benefits from it. What they don't want to do is grant the immigrants the legal and social protections that cost business money. In other words, they want to have their cake and eat it, too, and under the booshnazis, they get to.


Tansy Gold, who has friends who may or may not be legal but they're still her friends and she doesn't as her friends for "documents"

[Dorian Gray]

28. Absolutely not...

I have a friend who claims to be liberal, and this is his position. Even more ironic since his family emigrated from the DR. But, he thinks that the USA should allow no immigrants until the problems with immigration are addressed and the process is cleaned up.

I think that is a very unreasonable solution. If our lawmakers can not address the problems with the current process, establish a straight-forward process, and make it desirable for people to come to the US through legal routes while making it criminal to come here illegally, then we have a completely incompetent government.

[BooScout]

29. Why should legal Immigrants suffer?

For those that take the law into their own hands and break it? You want to ban spouses from immigrating to be with their spouses? Or keep children from parents?

[Ganja Ninja]

30. What if I want to leave before then?

:yoiks: