The Welsh are the true Britons?? Genetics point that way.....

[HysteryDiagnosis]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

[hedgehog]

1. I wasn't sure why this was news until I read the story.

I've come across other 20th Century references by Englishmen insisting that there is no "racial" difference between themselves and the inhabitants of the British Isles, i.e. there really is no such thing as a Welshman, Irishman or Scot. It's a convenient attitude to take when justifying the existence of the United Kingdom.

[tlsmith1963]

2. I'm Welsh on One Side of the Family.

That's interesting stuff. I always like to read about things like that. Thanks for sharing it.

Tammy

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. Ubet..... 4mor, er 3mor, but who's counting?? n/t

[gaspee]

3. Bookmarked

To read later, but I've always thought the English were actually mostly French. Heresy, I know!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. And dont forget Vikings

Folks from East Anglia often have roots that go back the the "Danes", which as I understand it meant anyone from Scandinavia. In my particular case, they went back to Norway sometime before the Domesday Book.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

8. And Poland.... please please don't forget Poland!!! Poland is

HUGH!!! lol.... :)

[brook]

25. My English

ancestors (according to family lore at any rate) started out in France and Saxony (I don't know the order of migration) before settling in Wiltshire. Some then came to the 'Colonies' around 1628.

My other lines are Irish & Scot. I find this research quite interesting. Thanks.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

27. Yes... I thought it was worth throwing it up here, as opposed to some

of the crazier stuff I have put out lately... :)

[Cleita]

50. Normans actually who were descendants

of Norsemen settlers. I was always under the impression thought that the Normans, who were conquerors, became the upper classes and the Anglo/Saxons the peasants.

[ieoeja]

59. Sort of.

The Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc came from the Netherlands to Britain. They established the kingdom of Ang-land (England) driving the Britons to Brittany (in France) and Wales.

Some Norsemen established Normandy in France. Some of these Normans came from France and conquered England becoming the rulers thereof. And among their men-at-arms were many Britons from Brittany.

In other words, they're all a bunch of inbred hillbillies!

[dalaigh lllama]

4. Thanks for the info

This stuff always fascinates me.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

6. Your sig is very very clever, nice job.... :) n/t

[dalaigh lllama]

15. Thanks! You're the first who's mentioned it

I made it up after witnessing a few of the vitriolic exchanges here at DU.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

16. I should have majored in vitriolics... it would have helped in this

thread.... put on your tinfoil hat first.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=68171&mesg_id=68171

[dalaigh lllama]

30. Interesting knee-jerk reaction

and reminds me of something my old high school science teacher kept pounding into our heads -- scientific theories are merely the best explanations of how things work based on information to date -- nothing in science is carved in stone. I remember reading a book called "Worlds in Collision" way back when, based on an idea that an asteroid had caused the demise of the dinosaurs. The author was considered a whack job. Let me think...what's that current theory now? <sarcasm> A few years ago I read a book called "The Emperor of Scent" which is about a guy whose radical new theory on how the olfactory system works is yet to be accepted in the scientific community -- it was interesting to see how validation happens or doesn't happen in the science fields. Sometimes they can be as trapped in dogma as any fundie minister.

As my dad used to tell us: "Keep an open mind, but not so open the wind can blow through." ;-)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

Bee very careful while reading this article then.....

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_n11_v18/ai_19847180/pg_2

Quantum honeybees - research on honeybee behavior
Discover, Nov, 1997 by Adam Frank
Continued from page 1.

Von Frisch's Dance Language and Orientation of Bees was some four decades in the making. By the time his papers on the bee dance were collected and published in 1965, there was scarcely an entomologist in the world who hadn't been both intrigued and frustrated by his findings. Intrigued because the phenomenon Von Frisch described was so startlingly complex; frustrated because no one had a clue as to how bees managed the trick. Von Frisch had watched bees dancing on the vertical face of the honeycomb, analyzed the choreographic syntax, and articulated a vocabulary. When a bee finds a source of food, he realized, it returns to the hive and communicates the distance and direction of the food to the other worker bees, called recruits. On the honeycomb which Von Frisch referred to as the dance floor, the bee performs a "waggle dance," which in outline looks something like a coffee bean--two rounded arcs bisected by a central line. The bee starts by making a short straight run, waggling side to side and buzzing as it goes. Then it turns left (or right) and walks in a semicircle back to the starting point. The bee then repeats the short run down the middle, makes a semicircle to the opposite side, and returns once again to the starting point.

It is easy to see why this beautiful and mysterious phenomenon captured Shipman's young and mathematically inclined imagination. The bee's finely tuned choreography is a virtuoso performance of biologic information processing. The central "waggling" part of the dance is the most important. To convey the direction of a food source, the bee varies the angle the waggling run makes with an imaginary line running straight up and down. One of Von Frisch's most amazing discoveries involves this angle. If you draw a line connecting the beehive and the food source, and another line connecting the hive and the spot on the horizon just beneath the sun, the angle formed by the two lines is the same as the angle of the waggling run to the imaginary vertical line. The bees, it appears, are able to triangulate as well as a civil engineer.
Continue article

[dalaigh lllama]

33. That was awesome

and that scientist was running into the same problem as the scientist in "Emperor of Scent." There seems to be a huge blind spot in the sciences where much could be learned with approaches using multiple disciplines; there's been almost too much specialization. It seems that scientists like these who have gone from one discipline to another have the best chances to make these new and fascinating discoveries.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

35. Exactly, you nailed it right on the head. n/t

[MrBadExample]

46. "Worlds In Collision" was written by a psychiatrist

> I remember reading a book called "Worlds in Collision" way back when,
> based on an idea that an asteroid had caused the demise of the dinosaurs.
> The author was considered a whack job.

You're talking about Immanuel Velikovsky, and he's still a whackjob. Among other things, he believed that the planet Venus was a former "comet" ejected by Jupiter that swung past Earth twice back in the 15th century BC, altering its orbit and temporarily stopping its rotation.

[dalaigh lllama]

53. Sorry. I was relying on my not so wonderful memory

I read "Worlds in Collision" 30-some years ago when I was in high school, and I had just remembered that he was a proponent of asteroids hitting the earth with literally earth changing repercussions, but it was about the Biblical flood, not the dinosaurs. My bad. :spank: Yeah, you're right -- a lot of his stuff was pure speculation based on untested premises.

Here's some more on poor Velikovsky from the wikipedia article you found:

The storm of controversy that was created by Velikovsky's works, especially Worlds in Collision, may have helped revive the Catastrophist movements in the last half of the 20th century; it is also held by some working in the field that progress has actually been retarded by the negative aspects of the so-called Velikovsky Affair. Works with similar themes, such as those of de Santillana and von Dechend,<7> Allan and Delair,<8> and Clube and Napier,<9> <10> have met in part with an academic tolerance never experienced by Velikovsky himself, and even with acclaim by critics of the originals.

He did go a tad overboard, but here's some more from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophism

A 1950s proponent of catastrophism was Immanuel Velikovsky, who wrote a number of popular books proposing such speculations as the planet Venus being a "comet" which was ejected from Jupiter 3,500 years ago and which made a number of catastrophic close passes by Earth and the other planets before settling into its current orbit. Velikovsky used this to explain the Biblical plagues of Egypt, the Biblical reference to the "Sun standing still" for a day (explained by changes in Earth's rotation), and the sinking of Atlantis. Most scientists consider Velikovsky's speculations to be pseudoscience at best, and sheer nonsense at worst.

Over the past 25 years, however, a scientifically based catastrophism has gained wide acceptance with regard to certain events in the distant past. One impetus for this change came from the publication of a historic paper by Walter and Luis Alvarez in 1980. This paper suggested that a 10-kilometer asteroid struck Earth 65 million years ago at the end of the Cretaceous period. The impact wiped out about 70% of all species, including the dinosaurs, leaving behind the so-called K-T boundary. In 1990, a 180-kilometer candidate crater marking the impact was identified at Chicxulub in the Yucatán Peninsula of Mexico.

Since then, the debate about the extinction of the dinosaurs and other mass extinction events has centered on whether the extinction mechanism was the asteroid impact, widespread volcanism (which occurred about the same time), or some other mechanism or combination. Most of the mechanisms suggested are catastrophic in nature.

Thanks for the mental prod, MrBadExample. Haven't thought about this stuff in years.

[manic expression]

9. Makes sense

The Welsh were the Britons who took refuge from the invading Angles, Jutes, Saxons and other Germanic tribes.

[lildreamer316]

10. What about the Scots? And the Irish?

I'd be interested to know. Hope they do some more research.

[JerseygirlCT]

13. Well, the Romans didn't make inroads into Ireland, and not

much into Scotland, yes?

And I think the Anglo-Saxons had their hands full for a while.

But I would also guess that the Welsh were more protected by nature than the Irish ended up being. When the English continued to invade and invade, the Irish were also pushed to the far west of their island. It would be interesting, indeed to see what the genetic geneology of the island was.

[evlbstrd]

17. My family is Irish.

But our name means "Man of Wales." They were a part of the proto-Norman invasion of Ireland, and later were called "more Irish than the Irish." Cromwell did as much damage to my Irish/Welsh/Celtic ancestors as he did to the old Irish families.
Yeah, we're definitely a race, and have always been treated that way.

[manic expression]

20. I was thinking about the small islands

like the Isle of Man. It is very interesting.

[rpannier]

32. There were also a group called Picts that seemed to just disappear

after the 700's.

[Bridget Burke]

52. Irish DNA holds some "surprises"

Abstract for "The Longue Duree of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on the Atlantic Facade of Europe"

Celtic languages are now spoken only on the Atlantic facade of Europe, mainly in Britain and Ireland, but were spoken more widely in western and central Europe until the collapse of the Roman Empire in the first millennium A.D. It has been common to couple archaeological evidence for the expansion of Iron Age elites in central Europe with the dispersal of these languages and of Celtic ethnicity and to posit a central European “homeland” for the Celtic peoples.

More recently, however, archaeologists have questioned this “migrationist” view of Celtic ethnogenesis.
The proposition of a central European ancestry should be testable by examining the distribution of genetic
markers; however, although Y-chromosome patterns in Atlantic Europe show little evidence of central European
influence, there has hitherto been insufficient data to confirm this by use of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).

Here, we present both new mtDNA data from Ireland and a novel analysis of a greatly enlarged European mtDNA
database. We show that mtDNA lineages, when analyzed in sufficiently large numbers, display patterns significantly similar to a large fraction of both Y-chromosome and autosomal variation. These multiple genetic marker systems indicate a shared ancestry throughout the Atlantic zone, from northern Iberia to western Scandinavia, that dates back to the end of the last Ice Age.

www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v75n4/41464/41464.web.pdf

This article is a bit, ummm, dry. But the thesis that Irish=Celtic has been mostly proven wrong. Most "Irish" blood dates back long before the arrival of the Celts & no archaeological evidence shows a Celtic "conquest."

Bob Quinn's book "The Atlantean Irish: Ireland's Oriental and Maritime Heritage" covers the "cultural" background & refers to recent genetic discoveries. (Note: "Atlantis" has nothing to do with it!)

www.lilliputpress.ie/listbook.html?oid=2733139

Populations living near the sea will tend not to be "genetically pure" (otherwise known as "seriously inbred"). Of course, different sources have continued to pour into Ireland's gene pool.

[JerseygirlCT]

11. That's funny, I'd always thought that was exactly the case.

Maybe I read too much "fantasy"? ;)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

12. Whaddya mean by that??? Oh... I get it... ;)

[JerseygirlCT]

14. That's the general line in most

historical/fantasy novels about those early years. It always made sense to me. Also, the language seems to follow the same trend...

I apologize if I was unclear. I do that too often!

[lildreamer316]

29. Hey!

I was thinking the exact same thing! Did you notice the fact that the fantasy authors alredy worked this premise into their stories?

[JerseygirlCT]

40. I guess they're just that far ahead of the rest

I'd thought they based their stories on known facts.

It sure does make sense, which is why it surprises me that it's news.

[misanthrope]

18. I dig your sig...

...Bell's Theorem on non-local motion, huh? It's a head-scratcher for sure.

Where did you find that?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

19. Well, you are not going to believe this, but here goes. I was

reading a book about a person who has a stunning resemblance to Edgar Cayce, who also channels, who has been given "information" to share with the world, (you have to have a Cayce background AND read the first part of the book in order to even begin to understand how any of it could be true) and I started getting into his ideas that our galaxy may be moving into an area of higher density/vibrations at this point in history, which in time may bring about startling changes in and on our planet. Whilst perusing some of the principles and phenomenon he alludes to, I happened upon a machine that takes images of a persons body, FROM A DISTANCE, and I believe it uses nothing more than a drop of blood to achieve the image.... soooooo naturally I started looking into other spooky items, and this article from Toshiba came up, check it out, it's all good.... 4Mor

http://www.toshiba-europe.com/research/crl/QIG/Press2006-01-12-entangledlight.html

[HysteryDiagnosis]

23. Thought you might like to cast your eyes on this article as well....

http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/2-5/Benford.htm






Preliminary Research



In 1951, a research project was instituted at St. Bartholomew’s hospital in London to study the applicability of using the DelaWarr system to detect various disease conditions under controlled conditions. A physician was trained to use the system, and the camera was transported from the DelaWarr Laboratories to the hospital. More than 400 remote images were captured using a drop of blood as the “witness,” or test object, for each patient. In order to control for fraud and/or deception in obtaining the images, some of the images were produced with the doctor “blinded” to the patient’s condition. In these randomly selected cases, the validating data were abstracted from medical records and/or autopsy files after the pertinent remote images were produced. This safeguard was implemented to ascertain whether accuracy in image formation was linked to the operator’s prior knowledge of the patient’s condition. These tests demonstrated that pre-knowledge was not a factor in producing diagnosis-quality photographs.7

A recent discovery by the author reveals that the DelaWarr images vary from X-rays in that they produced a spatially-encoded three-dimensional (3-D) effect (see Photograph 1A), similar to those possible via fMRI, which is detectable with the use of VP-8 image analysis technology (see Photograph 1B) and computerized digital 3-D software (see Photographs 1C, 2C).

[JVS]

21. Duh!

Genetic proof BFD! Anyone who knows the history of the English language knows that

[Jed Dilligan]

22. Of course

When white anglo-saxons show up, the people have to run for the hills.

No, they weren't protestant yet, but they were gearing up to be!

[H2O Man]

24. Did anyone think otherwise? n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

26. I never really studied the history of the area, the people, very

very limited knowledge on the subject, never even gave it a thought... but this article was interesting to me, so I thought I'd share.

[H2O Man]

28. It was a nice article

and I'm glad you shared it.

[Cleita]

31. This may explain why the Welsh don't like the Britsh.

Until I got to know some Welshmen and Welshwomen, I didn't consider them that distinct from the English, more like a cultural offshoot rather than a separate culture. I wondered why they seem to have the same dislike for the English that the Irish and Scots do and this explains a lot. It's probably a mindset and bias passed down through the generations from the time of the Saxon invasions.

[BooScout]

38. The Welsh love the British........

They are British.......it's the English they aren't too fond of. :evilgrin:

I have it on good authority they like Southern American girls too. At least my Welsh husband tells me that.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. I'm trying to refrain from making a sheep joke.

Do they like Southern American sheep, too?

Damn, that didn't work at all.

[Cleita]

47. Okay, my bad.

I should have been more nit picky about the British/English distinction.

:hide:

[JerseygirlCT]

41. Being Irish American and sort of in love with

what Celtic history I've been able to get my fingers on, it doesn't surprise me in the least!

[Cleita]

49. It kind of gives scientific verification to the legends, doesn't it?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

42. Ooh!

Until I got to know some Welshmen and Welshwomen, I didn't consider them that distinct from the English

Them's fightin' words!

:)

[Cleita]

48. Yep. So I found out. n/t

[Uncle Roy]

34. "Y ddraig goch!"

Or so my grandmother used to say. I always thought she was saying "Dry Gook!" It's the only Welsh phrase I still have, unless you count another one that sounds something like "gymmanva ghanny" that means "10,000 Welsh guys singing hymns in a stadium".

I think the Welsh Y chromosome has a singing gene on it somewhere. Soccer teams sing in the bus travelling to and from games. I sing along with "Take me out to the ball game" and "Sweet Caroline" during the 7th inning stretch at Fenway, no matter how nervous it makes my neighbors.

I think we're part Italian that way.

Blessings on thee, little one...

[REP]

37. "The Red Dragon"

Cenedl heb iaith, cenedl heb garon is what we say in my family (I think it's the national motto - may just be the unofficial motto).

[Uncle Roy]

55. There's a Welsh town whose name chokes DU's forum software (DCForum+).

It's "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch".
Try posting something with THAT in the title!

Of course, they have a website:

http://www.Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.com

I think the Welsh must have given the Germans a few pointers in how to construct long words.

Does anyone know how the Welsh language compares to the Irish and the Scottish? Are they similar? You might think they would be, given their similar status as places the Romans did NOT conquer.

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. The Romans did conquer Wales; Welsh is closer to Breton

than Irish or Scots Gaelic (there are 2 existing sub-families in Celtic languages, Goidelic and Brythonic - the former is the Gaelic one - Wikipedia article.

The place name was made up for tourism purposes, when the railway was built through the village - before that it was far shorter.

[Uncle Roy]

58. I never new that. Thanks for the info. It's an education being here.

(BTW, is Volestrangler Welsh?)

[muriel_volestrangler]

60. It's Cleesish

An ancient language, now sadly with only one living speaker - John Cleese.

[REP]

36. Duh.

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. Typical 'Englishmen' still have significant Welsh ancestry

Here's a paper from 2003, from the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL (the team includes the Dr. Mark Thomas quoted in the 2002 BBC article) and other universities.

In summary, our results show that Norwegian invaders
heavily influenced the northern area of the British Isles,
but this group had limited impact through most of mainland
Scotland (except the extreme north). Instead, main-
land Scotland was more influenced by the German/Danish
input. Despite their well-known activities in the Irish
Sea, Norwegian input in adjoining areas is modest.Some
is indicated in the Isle of Man, and a smaller amount is
indicated in Ireland. Perhaps the most surprising conclu-
sion is the limited continental input in southern England,
which appears to be predominantly indigenous and, by
some analyses, no more influenced by the continental
invaders than is mainland Scotland (Figure 3 and Table
S1). It is interesting to note that the areas in southern
England were, historically, mostly occupied by the An-
glo-Saxons, while the activities of the Danish Vikings
were mainly in eastern England <1>. The results seem
to suggest that in England the Danes had a greater
demographic impact than the Anglo-Saxons. An alterna-
tive explanation would be that the invaders in the two
areas were genetically different and that we cannot see
this difference reflected in the current inhabitants of the
Continental areas corresponding to Anglo-Saxon and
Danish homelands. This would seem to be a difficult
distinction to make, and it should be emphasized that
our analyses assume that we have correctly identified
the source populations. If, for example, the real conti-
nental invaders had a composition more similar to the
indigenous British than our candidate sample set, our
Castlerea sample would bias our inferences, but the
very similar composition of the Basque and Castlerea
samples suggests that this has been minimal. With regard
to source populations, we note that Weale et al.
<7> recently used Friesland as an Anglo-Saxon representative
source population and suggested a substantial
replacement of pre-Anglo-Saxon paternal lineages in
central England. We therefore compared Frisians to our
North German/Danish sample and found that the two
sets are not significantly different from each other (p

0.3, data not shown). When included in the PC analysis,
the Frisians were more “Continental” than any of the
British samples, although they were somewhat closer
to the British ones than the North German/Denmark
sample. For example, the part of mainland Britain that
has the most Continental input is Central England, but
even here theAMH1 frequency, not below44% (South-
well), is higher than the 35% observed in the Frisians.
These results demonstrate that even with the choice of
Frisians as a source for the Anglo-Saxons, there is a
clear indication of a continuing indigenous component
in the English paternal genetic makeup. We also note
that our analysis includes representatives of the Danish
Vikings, which were not available in the Weale et al.
study. Consideration of Danish Viking input is important
because their activities on the British eastern coast are
well documented <1>. Our evaluation of the Danish and
Anglo-Saxon source populations, however, shows that
the contributions of these groups are unlikely to be dis-
tinguishable by using the resolution available in our analyses.
Whatever level of replacement took place in En-
gland, it could have been due to “Anglo-Saxons,” Danes,
or a combination of both groups.

Conclusions

The detailed sampling scheme used here identified other
previously unknown regional patterns in the degree of
continental input. For example, the Central-Eastern part
of England experienced the most continental introgres-
sion. In addition, our inclusion of samples from Wales
additional to those of Weale et al. <7> indicates that
the transition between England and Wales is somewhat
gradual, which was not visible in the samples analyzed
in the Weale et al. study.

Most studies in human evolution and genetic history
have used samples from very few locations, often near
major metropolitan areas. Here, we show that detailed
samples from multiple small, urban areas with a geo-
graphically structured sampling design reveal patterns
that could not be detected with typical sampling
schemes. For example, analyses of multiple sets have
confirmed higher continental input in central England
and the northernmost samples (Durness, on the north
coast of Scotland and the Scottish Isles) and a lower
level of continental introgression in southern England
and Lowland Scotland. In addition, multiple sample sets
revealed heterogeneity in Wales.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/capelli-CB-03.pdf

The Weale study from 2002 that this paper builds on would appear to be what the 2002 BBC article was based on. This more detailed study seems to show that the Anglo-Saxon invasions of the 6th century did not displace the existing Britons/Welsh, but a gradient of Anglo-Saxon/Briton ancestry formed - the talk of "ethnic cleansing" is misplaced. The Danish invasion of northern and eastern England in the 9th and 10th centuries, which formed the 'Danelaw', had more of an effect.

[DrDebug]

44. It's a very complex mix which is regional as well

The study to which you are refering has been slightly revised by other scientists, because it used Frisians as a baseline, however there is no difference between the Frisian genetics and the North German/Danish genetics and that the "invasion" was most likely one or more tribes between the north of France and Danmark and it is not possible to determine which tribes were the Anglo-Saxians.

(...)

In summary, our results show that Norwegian invaders heavily influenced the northern area of the British Isles, but this group had limited impact through most of mainland Scotland (except the extreme north). Instead, mainland Scotland was more influenced by the German/Danish input. Despite their well-known activities in the Irish Sea, Norwegian input in adjoining areas is modest. Some is indicated in the Isle of Man, and a smaller amount is indicated in Ireland.

Perhaps the most surprising conclusion is the limited continental input in southern England, which appears to be predominantly indigenous and, by some analyses, no more influenced by the continental invaders than is mainland Scotland (Figure 3 and Table S1). It is interesting to note that the areas in southern England were, historically, mostly occupied by the Anglo-Saxons, while the activities of the Danish Vikings were mainly in eastern England <1>. The results seem to suggest that in England the Danes had a greater demographic impact than the Anglo-Saxons. An alternative explanation would be that the invaders in the two areas were genetically different and that we cannot see this difference reflected in the current inhabitants of the Continental areas corresponding to Anglo-Saxon and Danish homelands. This would seem to be a difficult distinction to make, and it should be emphasized that our analyses assume that we have correctly identified the source populations. If, for example, the real continental invaders had a composition more similar to the indigenous British than our candidate sample set, our results would systematically underestimate the continental input. Similarly, any Continental input into our Castlerea sample would bias our inferences, but the very similar composition of the Basque and Castlerea samples suggests that this has been minimal.

With regard to source populations, we note that Weale et al. <7> recently used Friesland as an Anglo- Saxon representative source population and suggested a substantial replacement of pre-Anglo- Saxon paternal lineages in central England. We therefore compared Frisians to our North German/ Danish sample and found that the two sets are not significantly different from each other (p = 0.3, data not shown). When included in the PC analysis, the Frisians were more "Continental" than any of the British samples, although they were somewhat closer to the British ones than the North German/Denmark sample.

Whatever level of replacement took place in England, it could have been due to "Anglo-Saxons," Danes, or a combination of both groups.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-48PV5SH-12&_coverDate=05%2F27%2F2003&_alid=339895807&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=6243&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000049116&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=949111&md5=9edf5ce1c39d4139af4c01733282fa82

[muriel_volestrangler]

45. That's the same study I linked to, isn't it?

Though your link has better formatting ... :)

[Odin2005]

51. More likely plauge then genocide.

A massive plauge spread through the remains of the Roman world during the 500's, depopulating large parts of the countryside.

The "it was a small elite" theory seems to be related more to looking good to post-WW2 political sensibilities (the Saxons were Germans, after all) then being real history.

[SmokingJacket]

54. That is what I always assumed.

They were chased out of England by the waves of invaders and hid in the mountains of Wales...

to me a more interesting question is, where before that?

[MsTryska]

57. makes sense to me......

Most English are really Norse.