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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:31 AM
Original message
The Present Debacle/ or a disturbing missive from a "friend"
Edited on Tue May-16-06 12:36 AM by LibInTexas
It starts out..

May 21, 1945

After that...I wanted to puke...


After the debacles of February and March at Iwo Jima, and now the ongoing quagmire on Okinawa, we are asked to accept recent losses that are reaching 20,000 dead brave American soldiers and yet another 50,000 wounded in these near criminally incompetent campaigns euphemistically dubbed “island hopping.”

Meanwhile, we are no closer to victory over Japan. Instead, we are hearing of secret plans of invasion of the Japanese mainland slated for 1946 or even 1947 that may well make Okinawa seem like a cake walk and cost us a million casualties and perhaps involve a half-century of occupation. The extent of the current Kamikaze threat, once written off as the work of a “bunch of dead-enders,” was totally unforeseen, even though such suicidal zealots are in the process of inflicting the worst casualties on the U.S. Navy in its entire history.


Worse still, our sources in the intelligence community speak of a billion-dollar boondoggle now underway in the American southwest. This improbable “super-weapon” (with the patently absurd name “Manhattan Project”—in the midst of a desert no less!) promises in one fell swoop to erase our mistakes and give us instant deliverance from our blunders—no concern, of course, for the thousands of innocents who would be vaporized if such a monstrous fantasy bomb were ever actually to work.

We are only now coming off even more terrible losses in Europe, after being surprised by a supposedly defeated enemy in the Ardennes where another 20,000 Americans were killed and another 60,000 wounded or missing—again, due to our continued strategic incompetence and abject intelligence failures. Macabre reports of American bazooka shells bouncing off German Tiger tanks and our Shermans ablaze like Ronson lighters have only now come to light as we plow the Belgium countryside for yet another new American war cemetery. Tragically, this is not the first, but the fourth year of this war, when victory rather than endless bloodshed has been long promised.

A number of issues arise. Why is Henry Stimson (“Gentlemen do not read each other's mail”) still Secretary of War? After the debacles at Pearl Harbor, the Philippines tragedy, the Kasserine Pass disaster, the unforeseen bocage in Normandy, the Falaise Gap escape, the Anzio mess, the fatal detour to Rome, the surprise at the Bulge, the bloodbath at Tarawa, and now the Iwo Jima and Okinawa nightmares, is not five years of his incompetence and arrogance enough? A number of our retired generals seems to agree, who have recently bravely come forward to remind us that Sec. Stimson long ago tried to dismantle key elements of our intelligence services, attempted to curtail the operational command of our Army Air Corps generals in conducting bombings of Europe, and has on more than one occasion intervened to remove targets from Gen. LeMay’s campaign over Japan.

As we see thousands of Americans dying and our enemies still in power after four years of war, it is also legitimate to question the stewardship of Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Marshall. The Sherman tank tragedy, the daylight bombing fiasco, the absence of even minimally suitable anti-tank weapons and torpedoes—all these lapses came on his watch, and the man at the top must take full responsibility for mistakes that have now cost thousands of American lives. Indeed, it is not just that America has worse tanks and guns than our German enemies, but they are inferior even to the rockets and armor of our Soviet allies. The recent publication of “The Sherman Tank Scandal” follows other revelations published in “Asleep at the Philippines,” “The Flight of Gen. MacArthur,” “Gen. Patton and the Atrocities on Sicily,” “Do Americans Execute POWs?” “Torture on Guadalcanal,” “Incinerating Women and Children?” and “Civilian Massacres in Germany”—publications in their totality that suggest a military out of control as often as it is incompetent.

Such problems start at the top. It is not out of “Roosevelt hating,” but out of the need for truth that requires this paper to remind the American people that Mr. Roosevelt, in whose hands our collective fate lies, has been untruthful to his wife about his liaisons, untruthful to the American people about the extent of his crippling illness, and thus, not surprisingly, untruthful to the United States Congress about the extent of our prewar involvement with the British Empire in its European war and the secret nature of our present commitments.

Recently we have learned that President Roosevelt, the former law school dropout, once again has violated basic freedoms enshrined in our Constitution. Supposed German suspects were subject to military tribunals, tried in secret, and then executed. Tens of thousands of Italians, Germans, and Japanese war captives are detained in hundreds of American prison compounds, without charges and often in secret. How many were truly captured in uniform, and under what conditions, is never disclosed.

Unfortunately this violation of American values comes not in isolation, but on the heels of the unlawful internment of thousands of American citizens in Western concentration camps, the cover-up of the Cobra disaster in Normandy and the criminally negligent killing of General McNair, and still more rumors that hundreds of American soldiers perished in secret in training exercises on the eve of the Normandy invasion. Yet, the American people to this day have no precise idea how many of their enlisted men and officers have been killed, much less where they perished or how.

Indeed, what little we know comes to light only due to the brave efforts of a few unnamed operatives in the Office of Strategic Services who have in secret provided such information concerning patently illegal activities to the responsible news organizations.

Yet even this government’s propaganda efforts ring hallow, as we noticed with the recently released film footage purportedly showing Adolph Hitler incompetently handling a Colt .45 revolver. In fact, such a weapon, little known in Germany, is hard to load and shoot, especially the early model that the Fuhrer was shown trying to fire. To be fair, his apparent unease is not necessarily proof that Mr. Hitler was unfamiliar with firearms, much less fraudulent in his demonstration of military experience.

Remember as well that these clandestine transgressions of this administration follow a long record of constitutional disrespect—whether trying to pack the Supreme Court with compliant justices, unilaterally turning over our destroyers to the United Kingdom, or, well before Pearl Harbor, ordering, by fiat, attacks on the high seas against German submarines. Such abuses of presidential authority, characterized by intrigue with British agents and unauthorized spying on foreign nationals, go a long way in explaining the German decision to declare war against us on December 8, 1941, presenting the United States with the present catastrophe of a two-front conflict.

We can envision that when this lamentable war is over, fought with such malfeasance, the real heroes will not be Gen. Marshall, Secretary Stimson, or yes-men like Gen Eisenhower, but courageous mavericks such as a Charles Lindbergh or Senator Robert Taft, who long ago warned us that we were provoking an unnecessary war, one that, as they feared, was subsequently to be waged barbarically and yet incompetently at the same time.

The final irony is that we may well end up friendlier with our current fascist enemies than with our Communist allies. It is not hard to envision a policy looming on the horizon that soon coddles Hitler’s current friend Gen. Franco, while opposing his dire enemy Joseph Stalin. We have it on good authority that already there are postwar contingency plans to train and reform the Japanese and German militaries to serve as a bulwark against a Communist Soviet Union and a soon to be Communist China, as America readies for yet another war, one that may last not five, but 50 years. How ironic that a struggle that started out in 1939 to ensure a free Eastern Europe and China may well end up, at best, guaranteeing their enslavement to totalitarians every bit as cruel as Hitler and Tojo.

Citizens should not have to look to our actors and intellectuals for answers, but, in the absence of political accountability, they often do. After the release of The True Story of the B-17 Slaughter, Gary Cooper thankfully came forward to remind us how President Roosevelt took us into a British war that we were utterly unprepared for. Next look for Coop’s recently completed and powerful American Gestapo this fall. Likewise, Jimmy Stewart remarked from the front lines above Germany (so unlike our president, who failed to serve in any of America’s past wars) that it is hard to know who the real enemy is after we have bombed the children of Hamburg. And Clark Gable is currently preparing a documentary on the Pacific theater, 12/7, that outlines the racist nature of that campaign that seeks the extermination of all the living Japanese we encounter.

Finally, we welcome the upcoming courageous anthology edited by John Steinbeck, Ernest Hemingway, and William Faulkner, Worse Than Our Enemies?, that charts the near criminal direction of American foreign policy under this administration’s plans of total and endless war, of preparing for a new imperial conflict against the Soviet Union before the current one with Germany and Japan is even over. It is in this context that the venerable John Ford recently resigned from the Navy, and instead will produce a series of films Why We Shouldn’t Fight that will reveal what was really behind this needless campaign of annihilation against the Japanese.


Hey DUers...read it and weep (or be pissed off) as I did. I'm trying to come up with a response that doesn't involve firearms. (OK, just kidding..just...)

This whole thing is fiction. I tried Snopes for a reasoned and concise rebuttal, but could not find anything.

The thing is, this guy sent it to about 25 addresses and I'm going to reply...fool him. I want some DU love to go along. Any response is welcome.

Here's what I've come up with so far (I'm not saying it's good, just a draft...OK?):

This is pretty misleading, Don. You sent it looking like either you had written it or someone form 1945 did. It's fake and you know it.

Mindless drivel comes to mind as well. Also the words, propaganda, disinformation, jingoism, and nonsense, just to name a few.

I sat here looking at this like it was written in 1945. Then, with a bit of googling, I found out it was a National Review tome written by one Victor Davis Hanson on May 12, 2006.

It was not written by any vet from WW2. As much as you would like to make the article appear a message from our fathers. My father was a decorated vet from WW2 and would never condone this garbage you send out on the net as truth.

I am ashamed that you either forwared this or sent it as your own; to feign that it was the words of a WW2 vet. You should be ashamed.
This thing was written by a neocon at the New Republic who has an agenda. The "facts" in this article from WW2 are not only twisted, they are patently false. Fakes. A LIE. If you like I can step you through one by one. First of alll VE day as 2 weeks before this thing was suppoedly written.





PM is OK if you like. Good help appreciated.

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Drum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think it sings just the way you wrote it!
Keep on fightin' the good fight, LibInTexas.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Hey...Thanks for the response.
I know it needs some editing..but I'm so pissed off, I have to give it some time before I send..


HEY, but thanks for the positive vibes...!!!

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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. give it a few hours... cool off a little
that's a great start!

Make him eat those lies.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. OK
My wife came in and said pretty much the same thing looking over my shoulder.

"I delete all his stuff, and you should too."

OK, but it just got me going.

Good advice. Thanks.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. tell him

that he's an idiot for analogizing Germany and Japan to Afghanistan and Iraq (or Iran). That's what got the neocons into trouble in the first place in Iraq, and repeating the analogy is not going to help.

As for equating the threats involved, only cowards can possibly do that. WW2 was a war of industrial production and whole populations. The War On Terror is a few idiots chasing and running from their own shadows, giving the world pinpricks. Chickenhearts and chickenhawks.

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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I think
the anagogies are convenience.

We were attacked on 2 coasts in WW2. Besides Pearl, UBoats sat off the east coast and lobbed either torpedos or machinegunned planes. We were attacked. Not only Japan, but Germany declared war on us.

We were not attacked by Iraq. Duh.

I agree. The war on an elusive idea is stupid. Wander around attacking...what? Terrorists? Where are they?
Over here? Over there?

No, this is a a corporate war.

=P
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. Here's the most maddening part..
Edited on Tue May-16-06 01:27 AM by chill_wind
This misleading lying crap wil get circulated a bjillion times by emailers mailing their friends of cc'd friends of cc'd friends so that it will rapidly become another email urban legend, if it isn't already. Someone shoud submit it to a couple of the largest commonly searched fact-checking and debunking sites like Snopes et al. Then we can give our friends a simple url instead of a painfully time-consuming reply. They'll get the message.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I agree.
I could not find a Snopes response.

I am gong to make a measured reply tomorrow and send it to the 25 or so people on is list that he stupidly let me click on to "reply all".

Again...Any DU love will be appreciated.

I'm waiting for a few hours to retailate, gathering anything you all have to add.



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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Excellent
Thankyou. We all owe you.
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
8. When you call him on the lies, prove with facts and sources how and why
they are lies. If it takes an extra day to pull it together, it is worth it. You will be reaching at least 25 people this way. Might as well reach them with a fact filled response. Also, when responding to this kind of drivel, use as many "unbiased" sources as possible. A reich winger is less likely to trust a source called "Truth Out" (even thought I would.) Use these sources to link you to sites that prove your points, but sources (most likely MSM) sites that the reich wingers are more likely not to dismiss as complete "liberal lies." Remember, you're working to convince them, not preaching to the choir! :)

Best of luck. :hi:
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yes, Kerrytravers...
That's kind of why I even posted this.

I kind of want some DU help. I'm not sure that I'm always aware of the facts or how to go after complete lies like these things are...

Just looking for a little help...

??
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Oh good. Sometime people just let out their frustrations and miss
great opportunities. I hope some very knowledgable Duers are able to be of assistance!

kt
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
9. One big diff- Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, so we went after JAPAN.
Edited on Tue May-16-06 01:29 AM by dicksteele
And we saw it through until they surrendered unconditionally.

After 9/11, we attacked Afghanistan because BinLaden was there...
but then we suddenly lost interest JUUUST when we had him surrounded,
and ran off to invade a nation that BinLaden hated even worse than we did.

Imagine if, 2 weeks before we bombed Hiroshima...
we suddenly pulled our troops out of the Pacific
and invaded Mexico:

World opinion would have turned against us,
and a lot of small nations would have started making deals with Nazi Germany...

Foreign intelligence regarding the REAL enemies would have stopped
coming our way, leaving us BLIND to every new threat,

500 million USA-loving foreigners would be our newest sworn enemies by June of 1946...

And Japan would have an extra 2 or 3 years to put those newfangled JET FIGHTERS into production.


Long story short: If Dubya had handled WWII, we would be a bilingual nation today.
Everyone in this country would speak German and Japanese equally well.

(Oddly enough, Karl Roverer would still be Chief Advisor to the President in 2006.)
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Read this twice..or so...
Jet fighters were German, not Japanese. The Nipponese had the Zeros..wonderful planes that out turned or dancd around anything we had...

The Japanese were suing for peace before either bomb was dropped. We dropped the bombs to show our muscle to Russia. That was the beginning of the cold war.

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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. I know what a Mitsubishi "Zero" was, friend.
FYI- the Japanese military was as interested in jets as anyone.
Actually, MORE interested than some- namely, _US_.

They were a few months behind the German Air Force in that particular
area- They didn't have any jet squadrons in the air,
but they had developed some VERY advanced prototypes: stuff that was
superior to anything the Messerschmit Corporation had built.

They were suing for peace only because their supply shortages
and lack of manufacturing facilities in 1945
made mass-production of those jets impossible.

But if they had had a nice, quiet 3-year respite like B*sh gave the Taliban,
they could have rolled out an Air Force 10 years ahead of it's time
by 1948 or 9...
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Hmmm..
I stand corrected..See..



It looks very much like the ME 262, eh?

I didn't know that.



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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
13. V-E day was May 8, 1945
the original article pretended to be from May 1, 1945. I'm not sure why the e-mail has the 21st.
However, Hitler died on Apr. 30th and things had not been going well for the Germans.

"By July, 1944, the German military situation was desperate ..."
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0858637.html

Certainly things went well for the allies in the two months prior to May 1945

"On Mar. 7, 1945, the Western Allies—whose chief commanders in the field were Omar N. Bradley and Bernard Law Montgomery—crossed the Rhine after having smashed through the strongly fortified Siegfried Line and overran West Germany. German collapse came after the meeting (Apr. 25) of the Western and Russian armies at Torgau in Saxony, ..."

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/veday1.html

Even 1944 Socialist Presidential candidate, Norman Thomas supported the war, but was still critical of some things:

"Thomas joined Burton K. Wheeler and Charles A. Lindbergh in forming he America First Committee (AFC) in September 1940 and soon became the most powerful isolationist group in the United States. The AFC had four main principles: (1) The United States must build an impregnable defense for America; (2) No foreign power, nor group of powers, can successfully attack a prepared America; (3) American democracy can be preserved only by keeping out of the European War; (4) "Aid short of war" weakens national defense at home and threatens to involve America in war abroad.

The AFC influenced public opinion through publications and speeches and within a year had over 800,000 members. The AFC was dissolved four days after the Japanese Air Force attacked Pearl Harbor on 7th December, 1941. Although previously a pacifist, Thomas now supported United States involvement in the Second World War. However, he was critical of some aspects of Roosevelt's policies, including the internment of Japanese Americans and big business control of war production. ..."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAthomas.htm


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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Good one.
However, I'm kind of looking for the stff around 1945...

VE was months before this idiot (really 2006) piece of shit was written.

I think I'm looking for the (dreaded) talking points.

This is so bad, that I want to be able to throw several quotes in the man's face.

Get my drift?
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
15. Excellent Psy-Ops piece he sent you
Edited on Tue May-16-06 02:39 AM by IChing
Using reverse psychological and tactical debating points. This is very professionally done, but bullshit.

However, on observation I don't like letters written in history without sources and links.

My God, you know of course
the Catholic Church also stands against fiction and the movies
You know the one that is written under a Roman emperor's guidance 300 years after the facts.

I need links and historical documents even to start a dialogue
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I'm making a list...it's why I started t he thread.
This is a good point.

I don't agree with the last part, but the first..yes.

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
19. Why not just ask him WHICH countries were doing the "pre-emptive" invading
Edited on Tue May-16-06 03:32 AM by impeachdubya
in WWII?
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well......Both Japan and Germany........?
We didn't pre-empt..they attacked us.

Japan at Pearl. The Germans declared war and started to lob torpedos at ships and the coast line.

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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I think that was the point
We, as the preemptive invaders this time around are much more like the germans and japanese in ww2. Not a pretty or comfortable thought, but there you have it.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. 'Zactly. n/t
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tenshi816 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
22. So Victor Davis Hanson is at it again.
Shortly after 9/11, Hanson wrote the following for the National Review and falsely put Ed Murrow's name on it:

What Should We Do?
By Edward R. Murrow
Washington, D.C.
December 8, 1941
President Roosevelt will call for a joint session of Congress today to discuss yesterday's bombing of Pearl Harbor and the reported loss of 2,400 Americans. I can report that our commander-in-chief is calm and will not ask for a precipitous "outright" declaration of war against the Japanese, but instead leans toward a general consensus to "hunt down the perpetrators" of this act of "infamy." Speaking for the Congress, Senator Arthur Vandenberg promised bipartisan support to "bring to justice" the Japanese pilots. Many believe that the "rogue" airmen may well have flown from Japanese warships. In response, Secretary of War Stimson is calling for "an international coalition to indict these cowardly purveyors of death," and will shortly ask the Japanese imperial government to hand over the suspected airman from the Akagi and Kaga — "and any more of these cruel fanatics who took off from ships involved in this dastardly act." Assistant Secretary Robert Patterson was said to have remarked, "Stimson is madder than hell — poor old Admiral Yamamato has a lot of explaining to do."

Hanson did this in 2001 solely to try and ridicule the people who didn't want to rush willy-nilly into war immediately after 9/11 without thoroughly thinking it through first. Now he's using the same tactic again, writing more misleading and grossly distorted "historical fiction." He's a bit of a one-trick pony, isn't he?

Here's the Snopes link: http://www.snopes.com/rumors/murrow.htm
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