No filibuster = Good-by Democratic Party for many of us.

[tedzbear]

The lack of a coordinated response to this nominee proves that this party has gradually become Republican Lite since 9-11. It's time for the progressive liberals in the Democratic Party to defect to the Green Party (or the Socialist Party if desired). The only chance for us to have a voice in government is to build a third party that truly represents our values.

Time to go Green!
:bounce:

sp. filibuster

[huskerlaw]

1. Good for the Green Party

Perhaps...though I think it's a big maybe. But what are you getting in exchange? A Supreme Court that overturns Roe v. Wade and pisses away what's left of the Bill of Rights.

Huge price, small return. Totally not worth it.

[xchrom]

5. it's very possible over turning roe v wade could be a

good thing for dems. long term.

bad in the short term -- good, possibly, in the long term.

[huskerlaw]

9. Good, possibly

You willing to take that gamble? Seriously?

[xchrom]

21. listen -- i'm seriously at a loss here.

i'm not sure what they should do -- the candidates for justice are never forthcoming about what their real philosophy is -- and i say that knowing full well it's all a nod and a wink.

the fault it seems to me is a lack of commitment to a strategy of liberal revivalism. not when the train is about to wreck like now.

[huskerlaw]

28. I do understand

where you and the OP are coming from...and I don't know what to do either. But every time BushCo does something horrible (ie domestic wiretapping), I think OK, that's gotta be the last straw! The country will wake up! The Dems will start (or continue, for some) screaming from rooftops!

And then it doesn't happen. That's why I think giving up the Supreme Court in exchange for the possibility of more 3rd party votes is a huge gamble. Sure, one would think making abortion illegal would wake a few more people up. And I'm sure it would. But would it be enough to make a majority of the country say "That's fucking IT. I have HAD IT. I'm voting Green."? I'm guessing not.

[EFerrari]

35. I AM a Green. And I'd rather keep Roe and let you all

continue as you are, lol!

[xchrom]

36. we're thinking{or confusing} the same.

[politicat]

51. Lucky you, it's not your body. You don't have to live with the

consequences.

It may be a good thing, long term, but for the millions of women who need abortions every year, it's a VERY BAD THING.

So glad you can so cavilierly give away our rights to determine our own lives.

[Boredtodeath]

10. Wait.......I'm confused....

Aren't we getting "A Supreme Court that overturns Roe v. Wade and pisses away what's left of the Bill of Rights." without the Greens?

Hey, same difference if you ask me..............

Surely you see the fallacy of what you typed, right? Forgot the sarcasm tag, right?

[huskerlaw]

17. we don't have one yet

True, we have the POSSIBILITY of getting aforementioned Supreme Court. But the OP seemed to be saying that it would be a GOOD thing to get Alito because then people would support the Green Party.

I was merely stating that hoping that the Dems fail to block Alito's nomination merely so that the Green Party gets more votes is pretty dumb. Sure, the GP might get more votes out of it but we're stuck with the Supreme Court from hell in exchange.

You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that it's a foregone conclusion that Alito's nomination won't be filibustered. Watched the news lately?

[tedzbear]

30. I am NOT hoping the Dems fail to block Alito's nomination so...

the Green Party gets more votes. I am merely saying the Democratic Party seems content to let this right wing fanatic become a tie breaking member of SCOTUS.

That is a betrayal of progressive liberal values. So it's time to move on and help build a third party that will be willing to fight for liberal values.

One positive outcome: If there are enough registered Greens then their candidates will be included in the big broadcast debates and for the first time the American people will get to hear true liberal arguments. When Americans hear the Green Party views in these national broadcasts, they will abandon the other 2 parties in droves.

[huskerlaw]

37. ok, but

unless you get 51% of the country to vote Green, how have you helped the situation?

By fracturing the Democratic party, you ensure that the Repubs get MORE votes...more seats in Congress, another 8 years in the White House, more Supreme Court justices. Think of it this way. You've got 100 people. 50 are Repubs. 50 are Dems. But now the Dems are pissed, and 30 of them decide to vote Green. It's election day. The Repub candidate gets 50 votes. The Dem candidate gets 20 votes. The Green candidate gets 30 votes. Who just won? Oh...shit, it's the Repubs.

Don't you think it's more "cost effective" to work within the Democratic party, a party that already has essentially 50% of the vote, than it is to try to build a 3rd party from the ground up while the Repubs continue to run the country?

[tedzbear]

42. Fuck "cost effective."

We are not discussing economics here. This is politics where I would hope candidates earn their votes by following the conscience of their supporters. If they don't, they will lose those votes to another candidate, or to apathy.

[huskerlaw]

43. I didn't mean it

in the economic sense...hence the quotes.

Go ahead and vote Green, but don't come bitching to me when the Repubs win again. Voting one's conscience is fine, but then you have to accept the consequences. With the Green party as weak as it is, you are, essentially, voting for the Republican. Your vote leaves the Democrat and goes to a candidate who has no chance of winning. That puts the Republican up by one vote. If your conscience can live with that, go for it.

[tedzbear]

44. I am NOT voting for a Republican!

I am voting for a Green Party candidate. Case closed.

[huskerlaw]

46. Do the math

Your vote for a Green Party candidate = 1 less vote for a Democrat. If the Republican wins by one vote...well, your vote made the difference, didn't it? You helped elect a Republican.

[Dhalgren]

31. No...I think the OP said "No filibuster=good-bye Democratic

Party". I thought that the OP was saying that the Dems must filibuster Alito or the progressive left would bolt the party. I didn't really read it as saying that he/she wanted it. Maybe I'm missing something (not hard to believe)....

[President Jesus]

2. yes, going Green will bring the GOP to its knees!

good, rational thought process.

[Boredtodeath]

12. With the DEM party on THEIR knees

We need to make sure the GOP can get down there with them.

[tedzbear]

14. Ha! The Democratic Party sure isn't trying very hard, are they?

Your argument no longer computes.

[President Jesus]

56. ...and yours does?

Please.

[zanne]

15. Grasping at straws doesn't do it, either.

If the Dem leadership feels confident that enough people will put up with what they're dishing out, why should they change? Don't you think they'd care if people started leaving the party for the Greens? We've been like an abused spouse who keeps "threatening" to leave. I say it's time we actually DO it.

[bowens43]

3. It won't happen in our life time.

All that will do is ensure a Republican majority and president for decades to come. A better choice would be to work to get more progressive Democrats elected.

[rpgamerd00d]

4. Loser - dont let the door hit you on the ass on the way out

And you wonder why people view us as weak.... sheesh.

[G_j]

20. unforunately

that is exactly what DLC has been telling people too.

they must not need the votes I guess :sarcasm:

[hopein08]

24. I agree...the LAST thing to do is jump ship...

but if you can't reconcile yourself to the idea that maybe, just maybe, someone knows more than you...perhaps you would be better off elsewhere. But I refuse to leave this party based on what 44 people decide to do. The principles of the Democratic Party are still my values...until those change, I'm in. However frustrating it may be.

I always wonder about the people here at DU who say they're leaving the party and through with Democrats. I wonder if they will never vote for a single Democrat again. I wonder if they also leave DU as it is called the DEMOCRATIC Underground.

Anyway, a belated welcome to DU rpgamerd00d!

[aquart]

6. Is this where Abramoff's missing money went?

[zanne]

7. I agree.

Patience, my ass! We've been telling each other to be patient for at least five years now. If they don't filibuster this attempt to subvert the constitution, they don't deserve our loyalty.

[tedzbear]

18. Democrats now = Republican Lite, I tell you.

No filibuster means the Democrats are not even putting up a fight against this history making appointment.

[longship]

8. Consider this, please.

People leaving the Dem party is what the Repugs want. It's what they pray for. It is much easier for them to hold power when the opposition is divided.

With the situation as it is now, only by staying united can we win. The Repugs are playing the divide and conquer game. We must not give them the satisfaction on winning this issue.

If you don't like the Dem party the way it is now, then contact the local (county) party and volunteer as a precinct committee-person. Participate and vote at the caucuses and the conventions. Change the party from within. That's precisely how the Rapture Rightists did it in the 1980's. We have to fight the right fight here. Leaving the opposition party accomplishes nothing.

[Walt Starr]

11. I'll probably go (I)

I have never and will never cast a vote for an (R), but if there is not a filibuster, I cannot in good conscience ever again cast a vote for a (D).

[Yollam]

13. Kerry throwing the 2004 election wasn't enough?

That was the final straw for me. And I'm not just complaining that he conceded too soon. He threw the election when he hired Shrum and Cahill and decided to run as though he really didn't care whether he won or not. So many dems put so much passion into his campaign, but I never felt like he intended to win.

Add to that the fact that dems in the senate gave Bush the blank check to go to war, and the fact that most of the dems STILL oppose an immediate withdrawal from Iraq, NOBODY is seriously pursuing impeachment. I've had enough of supporting spineless careerist bastards. To those of you who still believe that there are still vestiges of functioning democracy left in this country, and continue to work as though that were so, I salute you. But at this point I'm just waiting until the barricades go up and the country completely implodes, because I think we passed the point of no return a long time ago.

Jefferson's 'tree of liberty' has never been this parched...

[emulatorloo]

25. probably sounds good at cocktail parties, but sounds like nonsense to me

Um Kerry almost won the election. Do some research on the numbers.

If anybody "threw the 2004 election" it was the national corporate media, who left Kerry's best stuff on the cutting room floor while propping up Bush at every oportunity.

OTOH there are some (including me) that think the Rove machine did some funny things in Ohio (and other places), and padded the popular vote in CA and TX

[Yollam]

32. Yeah, and dems in congress are fighting hard to save the USA. (sarcasm)

From where I sit, most of them are totally complicit with Bushco, and unwilling to make waves.

And I wish I was of "cocktail party" status. I'm a broke-ass working schlub, you know, the kind the democratic party used to actually give a damn about.

Claims of election fraud, even if they were legitimate, and even if they were enough to swing the election (POS Bush did supposedly win the popular vote by 3 million votes) do NOT excuse Kerry, Shrum & Cahill's ATROCIOUS performance throughout the duration of the campaign. THe ONLY time Kerry shined was during the debates, and had it not been for Bush's pathetic debating, even that would have been underwhelming.

If anything, it's the "cocktail party" dems who fail to realize that this government no longer works for ordinary people, and continue to try to prop up the system, and their own meal tickets.

I will probably vote for whatever sacrificial lamb the dem party puts up in 2008 (unless it's Kerry), but I'm done with the party in general.

[seabeyond]

39. yep yep yep, but then so much more convenient to bash a dem

after all we learn it well from media and repugs, and being the sheep we are, just best to pile on the dems rather than actually addressing the issue or being pissed at the people that are truly responsible

go figure

i am confused

[KharmaTrain]

16. We'll Show Those Evil Repugnicans...We'll Build Two Weak Parties

I'm not happy with how the ScAlito hearing are going, but what does one expect? Without control of the agenda and enough votes to stop the nomination cold, this is what Democrats have to be prepared for...and, yes, be very, very pissed. So, the answer to all this Repugnican abuse and lying is to punish Democrats and help make Repugnicans stronger? Maybe I missed a Poli-Sci class somewhere about this phenomena.

Is America ready for a third party or an alternative to the two established ones? I'd say, yes...but is the system ready? Of course not. It's been designed and rigged by both parties for nearly 150 years that gives any third party an automatic two-strikes and ScAlito as your umpire.

Well I wish you well in your new party. I'd become an Independent before I'd join another party.

[leftstreet]

33. The system is rigged against us "human resources"

http://www.fairvote.org/irv/end_majority_rule.htm

A Gallup poll in August 1995 showed that 62% of Americans favored "formation of a third political party that would run candidates for President, Congress and state offices against the Republican and Democratic candidates." The support for such a third party increased steadily the younger the voting age group, with 18-29-year-olds favoring formation of a third party by a lopsided 72%-18% margin. Gallup also found that the proportion of voters calling themselves independents had doubled since 1940 to its current 39%.

As Colin Powell has remarked, the national results in 1992 and 1994 indicate an electorate that is "channel-surfing." In 1992, voters tried the Democrats and Bill Clinton, in 1994 they tried the Republicans and Newt Gingrich and in 1996 they may be ready for someone new. Although greatly simplifying the complex reasons for these election victories, this analogy captures the volatility and frustration of the many millions of Americans who are leaping to limit legislators' terms -- or stepping away from voting altogether.

[KharmaTrain]

48. Golden Rule: Ye Who Has The Gold...

I had a teacher once explain (in far less PC times) that the Mafia can't hold a candle to the self-preservation system set up by the established political parties. They've legislated themselves into an almost unapproachable position by only but the chosen few. And the game gets stacked more and more every day with every new law, new patronage job and special interest vote delivered.

Sadly, we're about to learn what our political system is all about. It's not ideologies as much as it's power and money. Any third party movement will need a long-term, solidly financed plan...and in the world of independents and other "disaffected" that's like herding cats.

[seabeyond]

19. you guys are such wusses. i am tellin ya. this little something of

repugs getting total power and control and religious right grabbing the balls of the american people and you guys run away. and who said it was going to be easy. what....... you cant take a little hard work. i think this is about the most absurd thread i have seen. i am trying to get people to be aware enough of what is happening in their world, like the president saying he doesnt have to follow law. or putting in a man to scj that believe strip searching a ten year old girl is ok. i am trying to get people to see why they should care. you see why you should care. and yet

you run away

[underpants]

27. DING!

:thumbsup:

[tedzbear]

40. I haven't run away, the Democratic senators have.

They are willing to give up without a fight. Why should I support that?

[seabeyond]

41. your statement is simply bullshit. not factuAL at all

they arent doing what you wnat them to do ergo you equate it to them doing nothing. because you say that doesnt make it true. no, you are running away. so be it. go. go to nadar that allowed the repugs to pay his way to take dem votes. oh, that is clever, yes sir. something to respect

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. I don't think you need to worry about a "political party" because

I don't think elections are going to be anything we need to worry about in the future. It will be like Saddam Hussein.....vote for me or else, mixed with evoting machines to make up for that 1% who doesn't vote for King Whoever.

fascism anyone?

[peacetalksforall]

23. You are right and wrong. The premise is right. It won't work unless

the Republican Party splits equally.

If we have:

1. A radical, evangelical, corporate, military, banking Republican Party -
2. A Republican-Lite Democratic Party (DLCers)-
3. A Libertarian Party
4. A progressive Democratic/Green Party that fights -
5. A Disgusted Republican Party base (who, by example, don't believe in invasions and reversals) -

Who is going to win? I would say it would bring us back to platforms and candidates and their histories and it would be a blessing for this country.

But Group 1 is a criminal party. Lies, theft, death, deception, and invasions are their forte and their power.

Four and five (and three?) joined together would bring us back to more integrity. Can integrity win against criminality?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. It's the only way to get rid of the corrupt system of "politics as usual".

The two wings of the Corporate Party serve only to maintain the illusion of democracy in an oligarchy.

[saracat]

29. As someone else reminded us, If not for the Green Party and Nader

we wouldn't have an Alito nomination and we wouldn't need to filibuster.As a third party, the type of weasal, selfish candidate they produced in Nader doesn't represent my values!

[emulatorloo]

34. then why is mrs alito crying?

what if they dont need to filibuster? That is, what if they get enough repug votes to stop him? will you still leave the Dem party? or will there be another Hoop for Dems to jump through?

They didn;t filibuster Harriet Miers. Should we go green?

[ieoeja]

38. So long, greenie!

[NoPasaran]

45. Don't let the door hit yah in the ass, treehugger!

[oneoftheboys]

47. There used to be some kids in my neighborhood like that.

When things didn't go their way, they picked up their toys and went home.

When the going gets tough...

[cascadiance]

49. I registered as a Dem earlier this year when Dean took over the DNC!

I also gave a donation that day to send a message of what I felt was a party moving in the right direction.

Perhaps now is the time to reregister back as an independent this coming week as shortly after the nomination as possible. And perhaps even sending a note to Dean that "I want my money back"!

If they do fillibuster though, that is when I will donate some money, and will try to give some right after they start it, and more if they can successfully thwart the choice! They have a choice. What is it?

[OneBlueSky]

50. I won't leave, but I also won't contribute . . .

and I'll certainly be open to voting for third party candidates . . .

"Go ahead, help the Repugs stay in power!" is a likely response, I'm sure . . . to which I say "What's the difference, if the Democrats are voting for all the Republican issues, positions, and appointees anyhow?" . . .

Ralph Nader was, unfortunately, more right than wrong (and I'm no fan) . . . on the issues that REALLY matter, we do have a single corporate party in Washington . . .

[Jamison]

52. The Green Party.

Unfortunately it will never be a real viable 3rd party. I've always hoped the party I most align myself with (communist party) would be a viable party too, but only in my dreams.

[EFerrari]

57. I think that depends on what you mean by "viable."

:)

As a Green, I'm okay with voting Dem in some elections. But, I am totally in love with the way Greens just roll their sleeves up and get to work.

Will we win a Federal election any time soon? Probably not. But, the quiet heavy lifting is very attractive to this old hippie.

And, I repeat: Please do no leave the Democratic Party. Please call your Senators instead and make them work for YOU. We cannot let them overturn Roe. We can't.

[Tom Rinaldo]

53. Some logical question to ask

What is the purpose of going Green? I assume it is to finally build an organization that can be counted on to take good positions on important issues and then deliver on their promises. I assume that means gaining enough seats in Congress to be able to, either on their own or in coalition with progressive Democrats, pass the legislation that should be passed, and block the legislation that needs to be blocked.

How long do you think it will take to achieve those ends?

What will happen in the meantime?

What makes you think it would be quicker to build a third party into a viable "First" party then it would be to change the Democratic party into one that you can keep supporting?

Changing a major Party into one that they could keep supporting is the route that the mid 60's Goldwater Republicans took with the Republican Party, though I few tried the third party route instead with the American Independence Party I think it was called.

Building the Green Party to the point where it will win dozens of Senators and Governors within 4 to 12 years seems a lot more far fetched than working to support Progressive changes inside the Democratic Party over a similar span for those same ends, if you ask me.

[cry baby]

54. Not me, I'll just keep my nose to the grindstone.

I don't see an advantage to going green out of spite.

[Bake]

55. A lot of folks here are just plain tired of being sold out

Many, many progressive Dems put their hearts, minds, souls, wallets, and sweat into progressive (dare I say it: LIBERAL! Yes!) causes and candidates, and we're just goddamned tired of being sold out to corporate interests by the likes of Biden and Lieberman. We're goddamned sick and tired of being told to "keep your powder dry" for the next big fight.

IF NOT NOW, WHEN?

It just doesn't get much bigger than this: control of the SCOTUS for a generation. Loss of Roe v. Wade. Loss of environmental protections. Loss of basic Constitutional rights. Ascendance of the Imperial Presidency (which will, apparently, be a Repuke Prez).

In other words, the loss of American democracy in every sense of the word. The loss of everything we hold dear.

But hey, as long as the Super Bowl is still telecast, and the NBA, and corporate "rock" shows by bands with lots of loot but no talent or soul, and American Idol, what the heck. Bread and circuses.

In short, if the Dems don't fight now, they NEVER WILL.

I don't blame Walt one whit. A lot of us are sick and goddamned tired of being sold down the river. Personally, I won't levae the party. It may be worse than that. I just may never give a damn again.

Bake

[rucky]

58. I've been flirting with the Labor Party

www.thelaborparty.org

About the Labor Party

The Labor Party is a new political party of, by and for working people. It was founded in June 1996 at a convention of 1,400 delegates from hundreds of local and international unions as well as individual activists. We believe that on issues most important to working people – trade, health care, and the rights to organize, bargain and strike – both the Democrats and Republicans have failed working people.

The Labor Party is national in scope and includes state parties, chapters and local organizing committees which organize members and promote the activities and policies of the Labor Party in its jurisdiction, and elect delegates to Labor Party conventions. The convention is the supreme governing body of the Labor Party and has final authority in all matters of national policy, program and constitution.

Between conventions, the National Council is the governing body with full authority to issue policy statements in the name of the Labor Party. The National Council is made up of representatives of the major affiliating unions and worker-supportive organizations, Labor Party chapter representatives and individuals who represent constituencies not otherwise adequately represented. The National Organizer directs the Labor Party's activities on a day-to-day basis.