Within You, Without You

[H2O Man]

"It seems to be so very hard to maintain detachment of mind in the midst of raging fires."
-- Gandhi

In the past five days, I have noticed a significant rise in the tension being expressed in a number of threads on DU. My goal today is not to review any of the disagreements, or to argue that one side is right, or another side is wrong. Instead, I am going to review something that I wrote about last April, and that I think others might find of interest. It is part of the annual spring-cleaning of my mind.

Any time two or more people are in a situation where they are together for periods of time, there will be disagreements. It doesn't matter if it is in one's family of origin, in your adult family relationships, in your place of employment, or even on a political discussion forum such as the Democratic Underground. That is in part because any time two people agree on everything, and think exactly alike, only one person is thinking.

More, it is the result of a simple fact -- no one person, not you, certainly not me, and in fact no one, is as big as the whole. Weaknesses and strengths are in each of us, and it is not always of our own making. Some people are strong while others are weak, yet those strengths are not necessarily something to praise, nor are others' weaknesses necessarily something to condemn. If all people in a group were "strong" in the same area, that group would eventually suffer for it -- just as surely as if each member were "weak" in the same way, the group would degenerate.

One way a group experiences degeneration is by allowing differences in opinion, which are simply a result in differences in perception, to become fights. Disagreements can be viewed as "me versus you," and as "us versus them." Issues become reduced to black and white, and right or wrong. When this happens, human beings can be reduced to being perceived as good or bad.

In order to reduce the chances of that happening, there are ways of discussing differences of opinion that allow a person to hold onto what is valuable to them, without having to insult a person for having different beliefs. I didn't come up with these on my own, of course, but have found them to be useful. They are some tools that some Quakers used to teach dispute resolution in jails and prisons. Let's look at them:

{1} Clarify as much as possible the nature of the differences between you and the other person.

{2} Do not bring up irrelevant material. That means that you don't bring up a person's past behavior, or mistakes they made years ago. No one likes to hear, "You ALWAYS do ____!!!" or "Well, you did ______ before!" Stick with now. And if the other person attempts to derail a discussion by bringing up the past, either say, "That has nothing to do with this," or ignore it, and immediately re-focus on the topic at hand.

{3} Do not be accusatory in any way. As hard as it may be, do not tell another person what their motives are, or what they think. You are never on solid ground when you think you know what another person thinks.

{4} Do not label or call names. "That's stupid" is insulting. "You're stupid" is even more so.

{5} Do not attempt to blame the other person for anything.

{6} Resist the urge to be hostile, condescending, irritable, or sarcastic.

{7} If you are "face-to-face," speak in a medium tone. Speaking too loudly or too softly is disrespectful. This includes mumbling under one's breath.

A second part of this method for discussing differences of opinion came as a result of the Quakers meeting with some of the Clan Mothers of the Iroquois Nations. Let's look at them:

{1} Seek to resolve differences by reaching common ground.

{2} Reach for something good in the person you have a conflict with.

{3} Listen before making any judgements. We all tend to begin to formulate our "response" in our minds when we are upset, which always reduces our ability to hear what the other person is really saying.

{4} Base your position on truth.

{5} Be prepared to admit when you are wrong. We are all wrong sometimes. We grow in strength by correcting our own errors in thinking.

{6} Risk being creative. Human beings can become rigid during conflict; that which is rigid tends to snap under pressure. Creativity allows us to flow.

{7} Use surprise and humor.

{8} Be persistent and patient.

{9} Trust your inner self. You know if you are trying to reconcile a difference, or if you are trying to score a debating point.

{10} Build community based upon honesty, respect, and a hope for a better future.

{11} Be aware that saying "sorry" does not mean that you are saying that you are wrong. It simply means that you are sorry that you are having a conflict.

"When you've seen beyond yourself
then you may find peace of mind
is waiting there.
And the time will come
when you see we're all one
and life flows on
within you and without you."
-- George Harrison

[Dora]

1. I needed this today.

Thanks for the reminders.
:thumbsup:

[stop the bleeding]

2. DU badly needs this right now

thank you

"Any time two or more people are in a situation where they are together for periods of time, there will be disagreements."

[Beetwasher]

3. But It's So Much More Emotionally Satisfying

To beat people to death with a spiked club. :evilgrin:

Happy Birthday, brother!

[Warpy]

4. I would add another, especially for situations off this board

and/or in real life: No matter how patient you are, how forbearing, how tolerant and forgiving, some people are just determined to be assholes, to cling to wrongheaded ideas, and to act contrary to all forms of manners and decency. Walk away.

Or, for those who appreciate brevity: Never argue with a crazy person.

[H2O Man]

9. That reminds me

of something Rubin said to me many years ago:

Q: What do you have when a wise man argues with a fool?

A: Two fools.

I agree with you that there are many times that it is best to avoid conversing with certain people. Some are best to avoid altogether. Others for periods of time.

[BrklynLiberal]

39. Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not know which one is the

idiot.

Don't remember where I heard that, but I guess it is the same concept you were bringing out.
:thumbsup: :hi:

[bvar22]

50. Never wrestle with a pig!

You both get dirty, but the pig likes it!

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Gregorian]

17. But sometimes it takes several attempts to crack a nut.

I find myself doing meaningless things that become meaningful.

Hit a nut enough times, and maybe it'll crack.


Edit- But sometimes doing nothing is best. I came full circle to seeing what you meant. I had to sit with cats in the grass, and hear the creek, and the warm breeze, and the birds. Then I realized what nothing was.

[Bethany Rockafella]

5. Your posts are a sight for sore eyes.

Thank you!

[bigtree]

6. happy b-day man

great post :hi:

[dogday]

7. Great Post and Happy Birthday

:dunce: :yourock: :thumbsup: :toast: :party:

[stop the bleeding]

8. yep

had a special appreciation thread here in the GD for about 4hrs before it got locked and moved

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5158565

[Lochloosa]

13. Not locked....just moved

and if you ****ing don't agree with me, just try it yourself ....:wtf:






















}( :sarcasm:

[mdmc]

10. nice post

happy birthday

[Patsy Stone]

11. As always a voice of reason

and to think this is how you had to spend part of your birthday. Go out and have fun. We'll still be our own dear dysfunctional selves when you get back.

[porphyrian]

12. You always say stupid things like that!

What?

14. thanks for calm in the storm

when the discussion becomes about insulting people, I start using the ignore button. Words can be weapons.

Also I was reading a little about the Onondaga and how in their council circles, a person would give their point of view, and then the next person to talk, had to repeat all the previous points made, before they could add their own points. This would seem a good way to discuss an issue (and also work the brain and memory muscle). However it wouldn't work here, because we are in the 100s here on any given thread.

[wicket]

15. Happy Birthday my friend

:yourock:

[Gregorian]

16. These are extremely valuable life-tools.

Thank you so much! I now have another tool for my box. And I love tools. They help me do work.

I've watched myself in arguments while here. My observation is that in some subjects I am very attached to my position. I go nuts with religion. But the arguments about how the indictment has been handled has been neutral for me. That is one of the things we must notice in ourselves as we work through this process. The subject of what is happening with Rove is not personal for me. It's something we're all working on as a group. But for some, it represents years of hard research and work in their lives.

The one thing that I want to note is about being united. What is the group goal. Is it bigger then one's own? When one's goal is bigger than the group's goal, then the group can suffer. There are members of this forum who have left, but who are very valuable. What ecclipsed the argument over the Rove indictments, for me, was to see members of the forum who've worked for years to expose, doing research, being creative. Like you mentioned, these people all have something unique to add, even if they disagree. In fact disagreeing means there is some variety.

I believe that little disagreements lead to larger ones. And that is how world wars begin. I also believe that most conflicts begin with misunderstanding. Literally, an error.

I reread your post, and I'm not adding anything here. Haha. I guess I'm thrilled to see a post that is so inspiring. I love it H2Oman. Even if I am distracted by Spring outside my window. The swallows are ecstatic. And I think it's time to go outside. Spring cleaning of the mind. I love that.

[Alamom]

18. Very wise words.....thank you & have a H-B-D. n/t

[jokerman93]

19. In the interest of better communication

H2O Man - Your posts are always thoughtful and helpful. Online virtual culture is in many ways still in its infancy. So there's a lot of kinks yet to work out in the ways we all communicate. I'd also like to add a few related to situations I've observed here and on other boards.

1. Don't presume to know another's intentions or reasons. If there's doubt, ask. You might help the communication process that way. And you might even be surprised!
2. If you have no doubt, see #3.
3. Don't be a know-it-all. They often assume and presume far more than they know they do.
4. Avoid gossip. Inevitably you'll be wrong and can damage relationships that may have otherwise gone well.
5. If you have concerns and want someone in particular to take your opinion seriously, show enough respect to address them directly as a person. If you feel it's too much of a risk for you to address them publicly, then a polite private message is always a good option. The person may respond better than they might after finding out later you've been tossing up innuendos, insults and oblique challenges while their backs are turned.
6. If you think someone else has a problem that needs fixing, fix yourself.
7. Candor.
8. Kindness.
9. Humor helps.
10. And remember - none of us has all the answers.

Thanks,
J.

[Me.]

20. !

Day after day,
Alone on the hill,
The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still,
But nobody wants to know him,
They can see that he's just a fool,
And he never gives an answer,
But the fool on the hill
Sees the sun going down,
And the eyes in his head,
See the world spinning 'round.

Well on his way head in a cloud,
The man of a thousand voices is talking perfectly loud
But nobody ever hears him,
Or the sound he appears to make,
And he never seems to notice,
But the fool on the hill
Sees the sun going down,
And the eyes in his head,
See the world spinning 'round.

And nobody seems to like him
They can tell what he wants to do.
And he never shows his feelings,
But the fool on the hill
Sees the sun going down,
And the eyes in his head,
See the world spinning 'round.

woah ooh,
Round and round and round.

He never listens to them,
He knows that they're the fool
They don't like him,
The fool on the hill
Sees the sun going down,
And the eyes in his head,
See the world spinning 'round.

*shadow government*

[jokerman93]

26. A song for every occasion

It's about the filters we all use to see the world, each other, and ourselves. The mystery remains though. What is it he wants to do? It never really gets explained...

I've always been more of a Rolling Stones guy myself.

Peace.
(And I'm not kidding!)
:hug:

[DoYouEverWonder]

21. Thanks

and Happy Birthday.

[dalaigh lllama]

22. Thanks so much, H2O Man

That's why I've mentally compared all these "tussles" here lately to what would be happening in a large family, and we're almost 90,000 large. All of the points you laid out are ones I eventually figured out after working with the public over the course of 30 years. Oddly enough, it's stuff you're told from the first, but it took me several personal epiphanies to figure out that, by golly, that really works.

Whenever I'm tempted to fire off a fiery rejoinder to what I perceive as a thoughtless post, I try to remember my sig line:

DU unto others as you would have them DU unto you.

Thanks for being the peacemaker.

[crispini]

23. K&R

:kick:

[kpete]

24. You are SO inspirational - Gandhi Would Be Proud...

"Be the change that you want to see in the world."
Mohandas Gandhi

[BurtWorm]

25. Interesting.

[yellerpup]

27. Thank you for honoring the Clan Mothers

of the Iroquois and Quakers for their gentle, pervasive rules of handling conflict. Patience is its own reward. You never know how much you need to cultivate it until you find yourself in a situation that requires nothing else, and you don't have any.

[Binka]

28. Reminds Me Of The Fable Of The Tiger In The Heart

An old grandfather was talking to his young grandson about the time as a young man he discovered that he had two battling tigers in his heart. One was full of hatred and bitterness the other one full of compassion and love. The young boy asked which one won the battle. The old man replied THE ONE THAT I FED.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MY FRIEND!

[Hoping4Change]

29. What a great post. I'm bookmarking this.

Thanks.

[capi888]

30. This is Wonderful H20 and wisdom is a virture.

How great to read this especially during this time of great frustration. Thank You very much.
Happy Birthday to you, and hope you have a Wonderful Day.
I so look forward to your words of wisdom...

[spuddonna]

31. My son and I had a discussion last night.

Ben asked, "Why are people mean? It is so much easier when we can all get along. We have so much fun when everyone is nice. But it can be hard to be nice, too... like when Samie is driving me crazy and I wanna punch her lights out. (He's 8, and Samie is his 6 yr old sis.) Why can't it always be like today when we had fun and got along?"

I told him it was a great question, and that arguments between even close friends and family are hard to avoid because people are different - they have different minds, different experiences, and different hearts. It is what makes us seek each other out, and it also what drives us apart.

I'm also going to show them your post tonight, H20 Man. What great information, as always! I hope you know how much I appreciate all of your thoughful posts and articles. They make my day, and my brain, much happier!

And I hope you have a very happy birthday! :yourock: I wish Fitz would give you a special present today! :7

[Nothing Without Hope]

32. Like a pool of cool water in the burning desert, and as badly needed.

Thank you, H2O Man. I'd like to see this reposted from time to time when it is needed again. We have so many serious issues to deal with together, we need to keep centered and focused on what really matters. You are so very right: "...Any time two people agree on everything, and think exactly alike, only one person is thinking." Respect, compassion, understanding and humor. These are always the strong core that holds friendships and social groups together - and in these hard, frightening times, we MUST stand together on the important things no matter how we may disagree on nonessentials.

Bookmarked and added to my prized H2O Man collection.

[spindrifter]

33. Tremendously good sense here.

Thanks.

[hfojvt]

34. "Resist the urge to be hostile, condescending, irritable, or sarcastic."

We can't be sarcastic? :cry: You're trying to take away all the fun!

When you wrote that the group would suffer if all people were strong in the same area I was reminded of my volleyball analogy. If the ball goes between two players there are three possibilities. If both are passive, it will fall to the ground, if both are active, they will collide with each other, and again the ball falls to the ground. The best result requires one to be active while the other watches, ready to assist. A certain amount of trust is required in the ability and competence of your team-mates, and also that each person is there for the team more than for their own glory or some hidden purpose.

[blm]

35. And a Happy Day to you, Waterman.

I'll try to dial down the sarcasm a notch.

;)))))

[understandinglife]

36. Superb.

Never Forget: George W. Bush willfully violated National Security to cover-up his willful launch of a war of aggression and illegal occupation of Iraq.

[Just Me]

37. I've had a terrible month. Lost all center. I'll read this over and over.

Thank you! :hug:

[fooj]

38. Here's a quote that always helps to "ground" me...

If we have no peace it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.-Mother Teresa

H20 Man...I adore you. Thank you for all that you do.:hug:

[BrklynLiberal]

40. Thank you for another post worth printing out and keeping on my wall.

It has happened several times before with your posts.

Yours is a voice that is always worth hearing.
Thank you...again.

:hi:

[veness]

41. Thank you and congratulations! n/t

[democrank]

42. Happy Birthday

and thanks.

[shaniqua6392]

43. DU seems like a family to me.

A completely dysfunctional family who will, at one time or another, have to apologize for something to another member of the family. In this case we are a family under a great deal of stress. Everything will be alright in the end if we don't get carried away and say things in anger that we should not say. Happy Birthday by the way!!!

[robertpaulsen]

44. Thanks for the inspiring words. Yours and George's!

I've seen some other threads recently where the poster tried to encourage everyone to get along and not be divisive, only to resort to the same tactics of being accusatory and labelling that undermined the point they were trying to make. This thread is a must-bookmark for anyone finding themselves in a situation rife with conflict.

[Mr_Spock]

45. That's very timely water man. I think a bit of reflection is needed...

at this time. The techniques listed in your post are excellent for all of us to follow. We are in a good place at this time, and it shows. It always seems that we overstep our bounds when we are experiencing much success. Let's not get ahead of ourselves - it's a long and winding road (to cheesily quote another Beatle). :D

[Raksha]

46. That's beatiful, H2O Man. Wise words indeed.

I try to avoid flame wars on DU, but on other forums I'm usually right in the middle of them! And of course in the real world, conflicts and disagreements come up constantly. Most of us don't handle them well at all, even when we know better.

[Laurab]

47. The right man, at the right time with a GREAT Post

Happy Birthday H20 Man!!!

k & r

[CabalPowered]

48. I hereby nominate H20 Man for a Nobel Peace prize

Can I get a second?

[Radio_Lady]

49. H2O man, we need you in the United Nations -- but a Nobel is OK, too.

I second the motion.

[DisgustedTX]

51. Could.It.Be?

SH!

[Vektor]

52. Great post - thanks!

Sometimes we all lose our cool, but it would be great if we could all make a concerted effort to live by these words, and treat each other with respect.

[bleever]

53. May you have a strong foundation, when the winds of changes shift.

Thank you for this superb contribution, and all your contributions.


Forever Young

May God bless and keep you always,
May your wishes all come true,
May you always do for others
And let others do for you.
May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung,
May you stay forever young,
Forever young, forever young,
May you stay forever young.

May you grow up to be righteous,
May you grow up to be true,
May you always know the truth
And see the lights surrounding you.
May you always be courageous,
Stand upright and be strong,
May you stay forever young,
Forever young, forever young,
May you stay forever young.

May your hands always be busy,
May your feet always be swift,
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift.
May your heart always be joyful,
May your song always be sung,
May you stay forever young,
Forever young, forever young,
May you stay forever young.

--Bob Dylan


Happy Birthday, Mr. O'Waterman.


:yourock:

[Major Hogwash]

54. "Words to live by, Lloyd, words to live by."

Unity comes from within, as we pour ourselves out.

Excellent post!

[bridgit]

55. balanced, vivid, talking words; k&r...

:thumbsup: :kick:

[marions ghost]

56. thanks

for your anger management efforts H20 Man. Very timely :)

I would like to add also that right now we are all under a lot of stress in the liberal blogosphere. We would do each other a favor to chill sometimes, not take up the cudgels so quickly. Think first & post afterwards. As a last resort there's always the "erase" option via edit.

Not to make excuses for temper flare-ups, but I think these times would be enough to try the most patient and long-suffering among us. We ALL have every right to be full of anger. We really are being serially abused, losing our rights, losing our faith in government, insulted by the media --and have been for these past 5 years. Finally we can smell blood in the water...our abusers have a couple of chunks removed, but we know very well they are so pig-headed they will fight on to the death. I don't think anyone around here underestimates them. It's a very strange and scary time. All delusions are being blown away. It's not at all excessive to say that Democracy is on the skids in this country. And fighters are needed.

To be irritable and anxious under such extreme stress is normal. But we have a lot further to go. So those of us paying attention to it all, being in the front lines so to speak, should not beat up on each other unnecessarily. There's a way to argue anything so it doesn't end up in a flamewar (without being a polyanna either). It's only going to get worse as the Hindenberg goes down. Lots of stress all around. A real roller coaster ride. Up days, down days. We chose to ride it...it would be far easier to choose oblivion. But meanwhile let's not tear each other up like penned pit bulls. We are more resourceful than that.

[demobabe]

57. All great stuff H20Man...

Even more important to keep in mind here on the internet.

It's so easy to look at a bunch of ascii and not consider you're talking to a real human because you can't see them. Many people act far differently than they would in person for this reason.

It is a challenge, and we can't be reminded enough of your words of wisdom.

[Greylyn58]

58. Words to live by

and just what this board needs right now. Everyone must remember that is really easy to call out or deride someone else for their opinion when you don't have to face them. Since we all want the same thing--Our Country, Our Congress, and Our White House back--why can't we here on DU, just treat each other with simple common decency and respect.

And in the end, won't we all be better for it. I know DU will be.

[Jazz2006]

59. Excellent, thoughtful and timely

Thanks, H2O Man, and happy birthday!

:toast:

[KoKo]

60. Wonderful post, Waterman....and some real good replies with more

inspiration. This post and thread is a "keeper."

And, a HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!

O8)

[Time for change]

61. Thank you

This should result in an improvement in the quality of discussion.

[myrna minx]

62. Thank you H20 Man. Sage words. n/t

[zippy890]

63. kick

:dem:

[happydreams]

64. I just don't believe it.

I call this soothsayer psychobabble and cannot believe it gets booted to the top.



On Edit: I do not feel this "division" at DU alluded to in the topic.

[Octafish]

65. K&R for Truth & Wisdom.

H20 Man knows both.

What's more: He knows how to share.