I voted electronically for the first time today!

[hopein08]

It's PA primary day and my county (Erie) has complied with HAVA and all that by getting ES&S iVotronics machines. I have to say that I like the whole setup and machine in general a lot better than the crappy old lever machines. I know that ES&S is almost as shady as Diebold, but so far my excitement and naivety allows me to give it a tentative thumbs up.

[Warpy]

1. ES&S likely disenfranchised me in 2004

along with another 17,000 or so New Mexicans.

You see, that's the difference in the total votes cast for local judge races and the total votes cast in the general election.

To believe Stupid won this state, you'd have to believe 17,000+ people left their nice warm houses to stand in line and cast a vote for a JUDGE, while refusing to vote for President, Representative or Senator.

Democrats swept the judge races.

The conclusion seems pretty clear, to me. Richardson got shamed into signing a 100% optical scan, paper ballot law this year. At least my vote has a slim chance of counting this year.

It didn't in 2004. Thank you, ES&S.

[Avalux]

12. ES&S are just as bad as Diebold -

There were problems in my county in 2004 and in our primary a couple of months ago.

[RufusEarl]

2. Been voting that way for awhile here in Texas,

and yes it looks very cool and easy to use. But one never knows where the votes goes, that the only problem.

[ramblin_dave]

3. Did you see a paper record made of your vote?

If not, then how do you know your vote was recorded properly?

[sinkingfeeling]

16. Unfortunately, paper printouts don't do anything either. As a programmer,

I could 'display' your selections and 'print' out those on a piece of paper, and still add your 'votes' to whomever I chose.

[ramblin_dave]

21. Paper records are a necessity that must be followed up

by random, and perhaps candidate requested, hand counts to verify the electronic totals, and to provide a backup in case of equipment malfunction.

[hopein08]

17. No paper record...PA law forbids it, I do believe

That's what will have to be worked on next, I suppose.

And I guess I don't know if it was recorded properly...I just liked it better than lever machines.

[annabanana]

29. How the hell can they FORBID a paper record?

The only thing you can get from that little tidbit is that THEY INTEND TO STEAL IT.

[hopein08]

33. IIRC, the PA Constitution was interpreted that a paper record...

would be too close to a public record of how a person voted and as a vote is supposed to be private, there can be no "public" record. Now, I'm only as good as what I read and I do remember reading something to that effect. I will try and find some verification.

[bullimiami]

4. its the backend that hurts so bad.

when the exit polls and pre polling all show one result and the computer tally shows another unexpected result.

[bcoylepa]

5. but how do we verify??

first time in Bradford Cty with Diebold touch screen - but no paper trail - we are screwing ourselves

[reichstag911]

6. Sadly. however,...

...your vote, unbeknownst to you, was recorded in favor of opposing candidates. They're just practicing for the general election...

[CornField]

7. Even a 5-cent piece of bubble gum has a verifiable paper trail

Why don't all our voting machines?

There are days when I wish I could share your naivety.

[Skidmore]

8. It's not the casting of the vote that's the problem, but the counting

of them that is manipulated.

[blogslut]

9. yes but

Here's one way voting machines can invalidate a vote:

Say you vote a straight Democratic ticket but you leave a checkbox blank because you don't like that dem candidate and would rather sacrifice the vote to the repub encumbent. If the machine is programmed one way, when you send you voter card through the scanner, the machine stops and waits for you to confirm your vote because the scanner detected that you left a checkbox blank.

If the machine is programmed another way, the scanner takes your vote, doesn't stop for you to correct your vote and then invalidates your vote. Oh, and no receipt thank you.

I experienced the above scenario and luckily, the new electronic machine in my city caught the empty checkbox. I have read that in some cities and some neighborhoods of a certain economic status and ethnicity, voters used voting machines programmed much like the latters ones I mentioned.

Am I making this stuff up? Am I embellishing the truth? I don't know. I'm only on my second cup of coffee. :)

[BlooInBloo]

10. LOL - no you didn't - ROFL

[EFerrari]

11. I'm sorry to hear that. Because we need people to understand

how these machines disenfranchise voters and we need them to help us fight them, yesterday. :(

[Avalux]

13. I vote with ES&S machines too.

When I voted in the Texas primary a couple of months ago, I asked the pollworker how I know my vote gets counted (while he was explaining process). He looked at me puzzled then said "I don't know. Trust?".

Sorry - but 'trust' doesn't cut it. I want a goddamn paper trail, and you should too.

[marions ghost]

14. so you have never

had the experience of using a paper ballot. It was clever how they did that little update in lever machine counties, so everyone would think the touchscreen systems are such a big improvement.

[hopein08]

18. But my question has always been...how do I know how my lever machine votes

were counted?

Who's to say that there was never a problem with them?

[ramblin_dave]

22. Theoretically that's true, but

lever machines are hard to rig on a widespread basis. Someone has to gain access to the insides of lots of machines to make a difference. Tampering can be detected by visual inspection.

Even if you could look inside a rigged electronic voting machine you would not see anything wrong even if you're an expert. Also, rigging can be implemented on a widescale basis and affect an election outcome, and be undetectable after the election is over.

[marions ghost]

23. there are lots

of documented problems with lever machines. Just as there are with touchscreens.

Optical scan is 5X cheaper than touchscreens. The problem is then that you still have scanners to read the cards, and at this point they are not safe from tampering. But at least there is a paper record.
And you can move a lot more voters through more quickly.

People who have never voted with paper tend not to see the advantages. If you go from those clunky old lever machines to touchscreens, you miss the obvious advantages of paper. With paper it's very easy to have random hand-counting as verification during the voting process.

[Canuckistanian]

15. Yes, they make it so easy and convenient to steal your vote

Push a button and say goodbye to your vote.

Until this problem is solved, you have no idea what happened to your selection.

Period.

[Junkdrawer]

20. Yep. An exercise in "feeling like you had your say"...

Democracy and a hierarchal society are incompatible, so, Democracy had to go.

[The Wielding Truth]

19. Going out to vote now.

I'm at least giving the crooks something to do,delete or fix. I want to make them work for their crime. Im going to ask for proof that my vote was counted.

[The Wielding Truth]

28. After the process of asking my name and my signing their book

I refused to vote when I got to the Ivotronic machines unless they gave me some kind of proof that I voted. The older ladies were a bit shocked. One was put off telling me that I would be the only one that would ask for it. I insisted and they said they could give me a Democratic slip of paper used to separate the voters. I asked for her to sign it but she said no and handed it to another lady who wrote on it. I thanked her and voted. When I left I saw that she had written todays date on the paper. It would show that I was there at least. Small fuss for right to vote. I was a pest but maybe they will be ready for more pests like me in Nov.

[Stevepol]

24. IMO ES&S is worse then Diebold. It showed in FL in 04.

The counties where the vote was most out of whack with the party affiliation or registration were ES&S counties. Diebold was actually reasonably close to what you'd expect from the registration totals.

BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS THE CENTRAL TABULATORS. These are exceedingly easy to hack and since they are just dealing in the totals from other machines or totals plugged into them, they can use data from any other kind of source, lever, paper, or whatnot.

First step is a paper trail. Optiscans have that and touchscreens that have retro-fitted with printers have it.

Second AND MOST IMPORTANT STEP: There has to be a required audit for all elections where these vote-theft machines are used. It should be a minimum of 5% I think. And the paper has to trump the invisible record.

If the machine vote does not match the paper vote count exactly, then the audit should be expanded and eventually the whole shebang should be hand-counted.

This the most important issue today. THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT BAR NONE.

[Rainscents]

25. Sit back and watch... one by one, Dem's will go down in Nov.

No paper trail? I guess, you'll never know, who really won. This is what had happened GA and FL. They were both pretty much Dem state until, Diebold took over with NO PAPER TRAIL! Trust me, your State and CA IS NEXT!

[miss_american_pie]

26. The senior citizens in line in front of me

(in Allegheny county) were not happy. One had so much trouble she quit halfway through and didn't vote.

[spinbaby]

27. Me, too, and I have questions

Aren't they supposed to have paper ballots if you ask for them? On TV, the local newspeople assured us there would be paper ballots for those that wanted them. The poll workers had never heard of them.

Also, the poll workers had those electronic cards you use to access the machines scattered across the table. One of the poll workers picked up a card, seemingly at random, and handed it to me to vote with. Because of the casual way the card was picked and handed to me, I assume it's just to access the machine. What's to stop me from finishing my vote, removing the card, and immediately reinserting it to vote again?

[SoCalDem]

30. Jim Jones' koolaid probably tasted just fine ...at first...:(

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. Good luck...I hope your vote counted.

[SmokingJacket]

32. Well, I hope the results are accurate! That's all. nt