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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:38 PM
Original message
Is Hillary's war position different then McCains?
Edited on Tue May-16-06 12:53 PM by mdmc
The War is a just war... alla Leiberman? Any DLC'ers care to defend her?
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Drum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. I won't touch that.... nt
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Same position: Whatever s/he thinks leads to the White House.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. What do soccer moms think of this issue?
Whatever the polls say soccer moms think, becomes DLC policy (from Real Time).
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. First off, she should apologize...she voted for the Iraq war
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. McCain is war until we can leave - Hillary's is no time certain to pull
out but do it soon whether or not goals for Iraq are met.

She is not into "getting a victory" the way McCain is.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. please clarify, if you will
I think that we are in Iraq until
1) We are willing to admit a vietnam like defeat, and withdraw
2) There is a stable, pro-western democracy in place in Iraq.

Are you suggesting that hrc is not committed to #2?
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. yes - that is what I am stating - she is close to John Kerry's position
although far from Fiengold's get out in 6 months concept.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. thanks for the clarification
cutting and running is getting to be in vogue. I would admit defeat (I doubt that a pro-western, stable democracy was ever eeven a possibility in Iraq).

peace and low stress
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Peace
:-)
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. That was Murtha's 6mo. redeployed. Feingold stated US should be out by end
of 2006 in remarks made in summer 2005, and Kerry submitted the plan to make it happen, one in Oct 2005, and another a couple months ago that factored in the growing civil war.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thanks - did redeploy mean out of Iraq now for nearly all troops? -I
Edited on Tue May-16-06 01:58 PM by papau
thought it was pull back to Kuwait and safe zones in Iraq - but do it quickly.

And I thought Kerry was a 2 year idea for an actual pull out. Boy was I wrong:

http://kerry.senate.gov/v3/cfm/record.cfm?id=253876

04/06/2006

John Kerry Speaks on His Iraq Strategy: Two Deadlines and an Exit

Introduces Senate Resolution on Iraq

In a speech on the Senate floor today, John Kerry lays out two important deadlines for Iraq – if Iraqi leaders can't form a unity government by May 15, American troops must leave rather than be stuck in the crossfire of an escalating civil war; if they do form a government, we need to empower the new Iraqi leaders by agreeing on a schedule to withdraw American combat forces by the end of 2006.
===========================================================
At least Hillary's position is as I recalled:

http://www.clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/index.cfm?topic=iraqletter

November 29, 2005

<snip>I do not believe that we should allow this to be an open-ended commitment without limits or end. Nor do I believe that we can or should pull out of Iraq immediately. I believe we are at a critical point with the December 15th elections that should, if successful, allow us to start bringing home our troops in the coming year, while leaving behind a smaller contingent in safer areas with greater intelligence and quick strike capabilities. This will advance our interests, help fight terrorism and protect the interests of the Iraqi people.

In October 2002, I voted for the resolution to authorize the Administration to use force in Iraq. I voted for it on the basis of the evidence presented by the Administration, assurances they gave that they would first seek to resolve the issue of weapons of mass destruction peacefully through United Nations sponsored inspections, and the argument that the resolution was needed because Saddam Hussein never did anything to comply with his obligations that he was not forced to do.

Their assurances turned out to be empty ones, as the Administration refused repeated requests from the U.N. inspectors to finish their work. And the "evidence" of weapons of mass destruction and links to al Qaeda turned out to be false.

Based on the information that we have today, Congress never would have been asked to give the President authority to use force against Iraq. And if Congress had been asked, based on what we know now, we never would have agreed, given the lack of a long-term plan, paltry international support, the proven absence of weapons of mass destruction, and the reallocation of troops and resources that might have been used in Afghanistan to eliminate Bin Laden and al Qaeda, and fully uproot the Taliban.

Before I voted in 2002, the Administration publicly and privately assured me that they intended to use their authority to build international support in order to get the U.N. weapons inspectors back into Iraq, as articulated by the President in his Cincinnati speech on October 7th, 2002. As I said in my October 2002 floor statement, I took "the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a U.N. resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible."

Instead, the Bush Administration short-circuited the U.N. inspectors - the last line of defense against the possibility that our intelligence was false. The Administration also abandoned securing a larger international coalition, alienating many of those who had joined us in Afghanistan. <snip>

I take responsibility for my vote, and I, along with a majority of Americans, expect the President and his Administration to take responsibility for the false assurances, faulty evidence and mismanagement of the war.<snip>

It is time for the President to stop serving up platitudes and present us with a plan for finishing this war with success and honor – not a rigid timetable that terrorists can exploit, but a public plan for winning and concluding the war. And it is past time for the President, Vice President, or anyone else associated with them to stop impugning the patriotism of their critics. <snip>

America has a big job to do now. We must set reasonable goals to finish what we started and successfully turn over Iraqi security to Iraqis. We must deny terrorists the prize they are now seeking in Iraq. We must repair the damage done to our reputation. We must reform our intelligence system so we never go to war on false premises again. We must repair the breach with the Muslim world. And we must continue to fight terrorism wherever it exists.<snip>

If these elections succeed, we should be able to start drawing down our troops, but we should also plan to continue to help secure the country and the region with a smaller footprint on an as-needed basis. I call on the President both for such a plan and for a full and honest accounting of the failures of intelligence – something we owe not only to those killed and wounded and their families, but to all Americans.

We have to continue the fight against terrorism and make sure we apply America's best values and effective strategies in making our world and country a better and safer place. We have to do what is right and smart in the war against terrorists and pursuit of democracy and security. That means repudiating torture which undermines America's values. That means reforming intelligence and its use by decision makers. That means rejecting the Administration's doctrine of preemptive war and their preference to going it alone rather than building real international support.
<snip>

===================================================================================
I need the DNC to put out a comparison of our competing plans, or to propose one plan that 95% of the Dem's have signed onto.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Hillary is sticking pretty close to Biden on Iraq from what I've seen.
.
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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm a democrat, always have been!
but i really don't care what her position is on this war. She voted for it thinking it would be a good political move, and i for one can't forgive her or that.

Now she's having dinner with Murdock and moving to the middle, i suppose she's doing this to get the nod in 08. I for one hopes she doesn't get the nod, because if she does i may have to stay home.

I listen to her speak to the right then speak to the left, she is no Bill Clinton and i have no idea where she stands on any issue except flag burning!
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I see many folks ascribe to her IWR vote reasons the RW put out - curious
The stated reason was trusting a President to protect the security of the US and to not go to war unnecessarily. Why is that a political move?

Murdock is not acting as a bagman for her - he is just letting his name be used for a breakfast with folks not on the far left - businessmen who really do provide jobs - somewhere in this world.

Not wanting abortion to needed that often is a bad idea? I really do not see the "speaking to the right" examples - although I do see the RW smear folks trying to sell that idea (and I am not saying you are such - I just am wondering if I missed something that shows her as two faced.

Indeed I am curious as to why McCain and Liberty U do not get him labeled two faced.- but he just asserts that he is selling his high integrity and folks seem to buy it and the media never questions it - forgetting his role in the S&L scandal.
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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Mrs. Clinton
Sorry if i offended anyone here, but this is my position on Mrs. Clinton. So i'll address each position, as followed.

1. The vote to give president Bush permission to go to war, was made by several senators on that day not all choose to believe this president. This was a mistake, and she should have known better then to trust Bush.

2. Senator Clinton does not need Murdock's help to regain her seat in the US senate, i'm not from NY but i know this to be true.

3. I'm only guessing here, but i'll be willing to bet not one RW voter would ever cast their ballot or Mrs. Clinton ever!

4. I wasn't discussing McCain, i was discussing Mrs. Clinton. But since you brought it up, I really don't care who McCain talks to, he'll never get my vote no matter who he speaks to.

All politicians try to move to the center, i've never figured that move out myself. Because independent voters in this country cast their votes for who they like best. It's just that simple, independent voters never pay attention to politics until a few months before election day, then they seem to decide who they like best and thats who they vote for.

I want a progressive democrat in the White House come November 08, and Mrs. Clinton has proved to me she's not a progressive democrat.

Peace!

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. Not so you'd notice. Both hack politicos with the ethics that implies.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hillary is a Senator from New York State and that's all she will be ...
Why should I care? I'm from Virginia. There's nothing that the DLC can say or threaten to force this LIBERAL to support her in ANY position other than being a Senator from New York State.

Why the hell should anyone who's not from New York State care? ;) :hi:
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. Yes they are different...
Hillary is doing what she thinks will help Hillary Clinton politically, John McCain is doing what he thinks will help John McCain politically. That's the only difference I can see.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. He cheered a little louder for it in the beginning, but I think they are
cheering about evenly now. $$$$$$$
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. money!
:kick::)
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Terran1212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
21. I've seen her praise the war IN PERSON
Saw a speech of her; she was up to her ears in praise of the war.
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