If "The world is better of without Saddam Hussien"...

[Dangerman]

They should check out this article:
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=32693

This survey shows that women's right are far better off UNDER Saddam's rule.

[Psephos]

1. Your source is biased

and that makes the argument weak.

Whatever else they may feel about the current mess, most Iraqis (I saw >75% in a poll last week) are glad to be rid forever of Saddam and Uday and Qusay.

Check out Time Magazine's feature on Uday and Qusay and the unfortunate women of Iraq. It's called The Sum of Two Evils and it ran May 25, 2003.

Here's an excerpt:

After months of recovering from an attempt on his life that put eight bullets in his left side, Uday Hussein, the eldest son of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, was ready to party. At his first outing in 1998, at the posh Jadriyah Equestrian Club, he used high-powered binoculars to survey the crowd of friends and family from a platform high above the guests. He saw something he liked, recalls his former aide Adib Shabaan, who helped arrange the party. Uday tightened the focus on a pretty 14-year-old girl in a bright yellow dress sitting with her father, a former provincial governor, her mother and her younger brother and sister.

Uday's bodyguards picked up the signal and walked through the darkened room, flicking cigarette lighters as they approached the girl's table. Uday, then 33, flipped on his too, confirming they had identified the right one. When the girl left the table for the powder room, Uday's bodyguards approached her with a choice, says Shabaan, who was Uday's business manager. She could ascend the platform now and congratulate Uday on his recovery, or she could call him on his private phone that night. Flustered, she apologized and said her parents would allow neither. One of the guards replied, "This is the chance of your life" and promised she would receive diamonds and a car. "All you have to do is go up there for 10 minutes," he urged. When she demurred again, the bodyguards pursued Uday's backup plan. They maneuvered the girl in the direction of the parking lot, picked her up and carried her to the backseat of Uday's car, covering her mouth to muffle her screams.

After three days the girl was returned to her home, with a new dress, a new watch and a large sum of cash. Her parents had her tested for rape; the result was positive. According to Shabaan's account, Uday heard she had been tested and sent aides to the clinic, where they warned doctors not to report a rape. Furious, the father demanded to see Saddam himself. Rebuffed, he kept complaining publicly about what Uday had done. After three months, the President's son had had enough. He sent two guards to the man to insist that he drop the matter. Uday had another demand: that the ex-governor bring his daughter and her 12-year-old sister to his next party. "Your daughters will be my girlfriends, or I'll wipe you off the face of the earth." The man complied, surrendering both girls.

<snip>

Here's the URL:
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1004927,00.html

Peace.

[wtmusic]

4. You are way off topic

No one is arguing that Saddam, Uday, and Qusay weren't the most pathetic pieces of shit in the universe.

We've killed 100,000 people and bombed Iraq back to the Stone Age for what? To take out three people?

That's the weakest argument of all. Let's ask those same Iraqis if it was WORTH IT. The only information that matters.

[enigma000]

5. link

Iraqis overall have a positive view of the toppling of Saddam Hussein. Asked, “Thinking about any hardships you might have suffered since the US-Britain invasion, do you personally think that ousting Saddam Hussein was worth it or not?” 77% say it was worth it, while 22% say it was not.

Gallup asked the same question in April 2004. At that time, 61% said that it was worth it and 28% said that it was not.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/jan06/Iraq_Jan06_rpt.pdf

[wtmusic]

6. I'm amazed

and I'd be more amazed if this was a true representative sample.

Based on this description of the parameters of the poll:

"The poll was fielded by KA Research Limited/D3 Systems, Inc. Polling was conducted January 2-5 with a nationwide sample of 1,150, which included an oversample of 150 Arab Sunnis (bringing the total of Sunnis to 421). Respondents from all of Iraq’s 18 governorates were interviewed for the sample."

is that it was unduly weighted toward rural areas, which have not felt the brunt of civil unrest/violence.

[enigma000]

8. I'm not sure I follow on the rural / urban breakdown

I did notice nearly half of the respondents had no problem with attacks on coalition forces.

[wtmusic]

9. Some observations

from the Brookings Institution, which co-sponsored the poll:

"...Pollack agreed with Kull that the timing of a poll was very important. He interpreted the upswing in Iraqi attitudes close to elections as indicative of Iraqis' expectations that the new government would secure a better future for them. Pollack argued that Iraqis are most concerned about basic needs, such as security, employment, clean water, electricity, and gasoline, and that each time a new government is formed they believe that it is going to deliver on basic services. Pollack noted that this was true of the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance, the Coalition Provisional Authority, the Iraqi Governing Council, the Iraqi interim government and the Iraqi transitional government, all of which failed to deliver, and as a result, public support and expectations waned in the aftermath of the elections."

<>

"a vast majority of Arabs outside Iraq believe that Iraqis are worse off today than they were before the war."

<>

"Telhami observed that most Arabs profoundly mistrust American intentions. They are confident that the United States invaded Iraq to control oil and help Israel. Very few Arabs believe that the United States is in Iraq to promote democracy, human rights, or peace. Therefore, while most Arabs acknowledge the benefits of removing Saddam Hussein from power, they are suspicious of the United States' motives."

http://www.brookings.edu/comm/events/20060131.htm

Geographically, there is no specific breakdown--but because of security issues it stands to reason that the residents of safer areas are more highly represented.

[enigma000]

11. I see your point - far safer to conduct a poll in rural areas away

from the fighting. I'll have to read more of the article.....thanks.....

[Psephos]

12. I was dead center on topic

The topic was the treatment of women in Iraq. I produced an actual account of how the ruling family in Iraq treated women under Saddam. I only reproduced a few paragraphs. There was worse - and it was a long-standing pattern. Brutality of the basest sort - serial child rape, followed by threats and harm to the victims' families. This done by the actual rulers.

We have no problem ascribing broader cultural problems to the example of the ruling family here, and rightly so - why the double standard? Iraq is no picnic now, but to solemnly proclaim it was better for women under Saddam and his vicious heirs?

Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight.
- Albert Schweitzer

Take a look at the website the original poster referred to. It's a kool-aid site - not a single variance from a hard left political viewpoint. That's fine, it just isn't objective, which means it only carries part of the story. Just as the hard right sites miss most of the story to focus only on that which fits *their* template.

To pretend differently is to say that dyed-in-the-wool true believers have good critical judgment. If you feel that way too, I won't bother responding to you in the future. I'm here for discussion, not spittle-flecked lectures.

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into.
-Jonathan Swift

I notice downthread that someone posted a link to the poll I mentioned. First you pooh-poohed the whole idea, and then when shown the poll, suddenly you were figuring out the myriad ways it could be wrong. Of course it's wrong; no poll is perfect, and some are far from it. But if the poll had shown what you want to believe, tell me with a straight face you would have picked it apart the same way. The poll is a snapshot...many snapshots are needed to see the broader picture. As always, the broader picture is more complex than our puny ideologies allow.

Peace.

[wtmusic]

13. OK, then your topic was not the OP's

The topic was the treatment of women in Iraq. Most would consider the broad scale of that topic, but you have chosen to fixate on the highly publicized, abhorrent crimes of Saddam's personal family. How many women are we talking about? 7? 16? 300?

I suggest we talk about the 12 million women who have to eak out an existence in the steaming pile of shit we've left for them. Where crimes like the ones committed by Uday and Qusay likely occur on a daily basis but go unreported.

The words you're reading right now are presented on apparently what you consider a "kool-aid" site--very little if any variance from a hard left political viewpoint. We read sites like this; we do our best to sift fact from opinion. But for you to say that site is not objective, that they're only carrying part of the story--implies you have another relevant part to present. And merely recounting the well-documented personal crimes of the Hussein family, in the context of Iraqi society in general, is not going to cut it.

Misstating my reaction to the poll doesn't help your argument either. I said I'm amazed--and I am. Everything I've read, seen, heard about public opinion in Iraq would seem to contradict it. Critical judgement would require me to take a hard look at it, and I did.

[texasleo]

2. Saddam was no threat

[rman]

3. Maybe, but it sure is worse of with W then it ever was with Saddam.

[Peter Frank]

7. I just posted this in GD - Malnutrition Rate in Iraq More Than Doubled Now

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1207691

[Jacobin]

10. How is it better off without him in power?

I mean from a practical standpoint?

He sold us oil and kept the factions from warring.

Somehow I think most Iraqis would be glad to have him back as a substitute to their current condition with foreign invaders occupying their country.