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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:02 PM
Original message
I need an answer regarding Freemasonry
My fundie friend informed me this evening that the reason John Kerry didn't win the election is because, unlike GWB, he isn't a freemason. She insists that ALL the presidents, going back to numero uno, were freemasons.

Now, I know a bit about freemasonry, and I know that some famous leaders were such, but I doubt that every single president since Washington was one. In fact, I doubt it completely. Can anyone verify this whacked out piece of information?

In the meantime, I saw the DaVinci Code, for which I'm going to write a review. Thanks to anyone who might be able to handle this question.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. They all were.
Even Colbert mentioned it in his new series "Better know a President".
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Tell him that
it's highly unlikely that Jimmy Carter was ever a Freemason.
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Kennedy could NOT have been a Freemason...
...as he was a Catholic. The Church bars its communicants from becoming Freemasons, and until recently Freemasons would not accept Catholics, either.

helpfully,
Bright
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Egalitariat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. The Church also bars its communicants from adultery...
What the Church bars its members from doing has nothing to do with what its members do.
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Believe me, in 1962, if you were a Catholic...
...and you were running for public office, you weren't prancing around hollering "So Mote It Be!" in a funny outfit with a lot of other guys in funny outfits in a tyled lodge.

Vatican II was barely outta the chute and no public-figure Catholic worth his (they were all "his" back then, too) salt was going to thumb his nose at that shibboleth. And anyway, adultery was a way less serious sin than Freemasonry back then.

reminiscently,
Bright
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-20-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. That didn't stop Mozart from being a Freemason
Edited on Sat May-20-06 01:38 AM by JVS
He was both Catholic and a Freemason. It wouldn't be that tough to pull off unless you blab about it in front of a priest.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. here's a list I googled
George Washington
James Monroe
Andrew Jackson
James Polk
James Buchanan
Andrew Johnson
James Garfield
William McKinley
Theodore Roosevelt
Howard Taft
Warren Harding
Franklin Roosevelt
Harry Truman
Gerald Ford


Other sites have other names as well.


I'm curious, does your fundie friend think being a Freemason is a good or a bad thing?

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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Hey, Chica!
Whazzup? :hi:
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. I'm gonna be
"up" that is...... lol

I'm MOVING to the far far north this summer! All the way to Wisconsin. I think hubby's trying to trick me by moving in the summer, but I know better. It's damn cold up there! He's from Buffalo, so what does he care. (sniff) Besides, he'll still be traveling all the time.

The boyos are sick about moving. Especially the nearly 13 yo one. :(

(Did Jael live in wisconsin or minnesota or montana or someplace "up there" ... I think Soc lives in Michigan but I can't remember - maybe it was Wisconsin.)


So what's new with you?

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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Soc's in Petosky.
I have his snail mail if you want it, I can send it privately. He's well, email him! He's always asking about you.

I don't know what happened to Jael. The "other" forum has succumbed to the Bird Brain Brigade, for the most part. Since the new forum format came to be, it's like navigating the Freeper homeland. :shrug:
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. Petosky
heck - that's even FURTHER north! I'm glad to hear he's doing well.

When I switched ISP's I lost everyone's email addy - if you'd PM me his, I'd really appreciate it!

I'm totally blocked from you know where. (lol)

I made the mistake of looking at Nanny & sues "crime" forum once - and I thought I was going to :puke: - it was the female version of freerepublic. There was so much racist crap on there. gag.....
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. She keeps trying
to tell me the world is run by secret societies and that the evangelicals and fundies are the only ones untainted by secret societies. I know it's ludicrous, but try convincing someone who has been brainwashed. :shrug:
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. Start here:
It debunks your buddy's theory...


Masonic and Anti-Masonic Presidents of the United States
presented at Federal Lodge #1, F.A.A.M., of the District of Columbia
February 9, 1998, by Paul M. Bessel
http://www.bessel.org/presmas.htm
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Thanks--I've
been trying to get enough fuel to debunk her theories and the things she's been reading. It's difficult to convince someone who is too narrow-minded to listen.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. No they weren't all Masons
Did your fundie friend vote for a man she thought was a Mason? I thought fundies hated Masons (the ones I know do).

Here's a list of presidents who were Masons....http://www.mastermason.com/wilmettepark/pres.html
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MelliMel Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I thought that traditionally the Catholic Church disliked masons.
You said fundie, so I am assuming you mean fundamentalist Protestantism. I am not sure how they feel about them.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I don't think it is a dislike. The Catholics have their own fraternal org
... called the Knights of Columbus. I know several Catholics that were freemasons. In the area of the country I am from, the Knights of Columbus and the Shriners (the social organization of the masons) often did social events together, however, they also had their own pet projects (like the Shriners' burns hospitals). I don't even think of it as a rivalry or a competition, certainly not a dislike.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-20-06 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #14
35. Not just a dislike, but condemnation
Edited on Sat May-20-06 01:50 AM by JVS
"In 1736 the Florentine Inquisition investigated a Masonic Lodge in Florence, Italy,<2> and the Lodge was condemned in June 1737. The lodge had originally been founded by English Masons, but accepted Italian members.

In 1738, Pope Clement XII issued Eminenti Apostolatus Specula, the first Papal prohibition on Freemasonry.

In May 1739, Tommaso Crudeli, a physician and freethinker, was taken into custody and questioned under torture about his heretical beliefs and Masonic affiliation. He was released in April 1741 and died in January 1745 from what is believed to be the result of his interrogation and incarceration<3>."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism_and_Freemasonry#Original_Prohibition

The reason that organizations like the KofC exist in the first place is twofold:
1) because some of the other "fraternal" organizations (e.g The Masons) were forbidden.
2) because some organizations were simply not open to Catholics

KofC provides all the fun of being in the Rotary, Lions, etc. while keeping the member safely within the fold of the Catholic Church.

I've seen similar restrictions and replacement organizations among some Lutherans as well.
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jumpoffdaplanet Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. Carter a freemason?
I find that difficult to believe?
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. Washington, yes. But not all.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
10. Are you being on the level?
:evilgrin:


(its a masonic joke, I guess...)


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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I don't get it. Just what does your joke en-compass?
Edited on Fri May-19-06 08:16 PM by Bucky
hee
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. No that's on the square.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Gee...
:evilgrin:
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Give him the third degree about it! (n/t)
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Are you a freeper trowel or something?
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. No, he's just a little square
nt
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Freeper-No, Mason-Yes (n/t)
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. you might also add this information:
(I just ran across this one, which is probably the hysteria that got your friend (be prepared, everyone, this is hysterical::)

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/us_presidents_and_satanism.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Abraham Lincoln was not a Freemason. He did apply for membership in Tyrian Lodge, Springfield, Ill., shortly after his nomination for the presidency in 1860 but withdrew the application because he felt that his applying for membership at that time might be construed as a political ruse to obtain votes. He advised the lodge that he would resubmit his application again when he returned from the presidency.
Lincoln never returned. On the death of the president, Tyrian Lodge adopted, on April 17, 1865, a resolution to say "that the decision of President Lincoln to postpone his application for the honours of Freemasonry, lest his motives be misconstrued, is the highest degree honorable to his memory."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lyndon Johnson received his first degree on October 30, 1937. After receiving the degree he found that his congressional duties (elected in 1937) took so much time he was unable to pursue the masonic degrees.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ronald Reagan has often been referred to as a Freemason. President Reagan is not a Freemason although he is an honorary member of the Imperial Council of the Shrine. President Reagan has on numerous occasions been involved in Shrine and masonic functions throughout his career.

The confusion as to his membership arises from a ceremony held in the Oval Office of the White House on February 11th, 1988, when a group of Freemasons presented President Reagan with a certificate of honor from the Grand Lodge of Washington, D.C., then he was made an Honourary Scottish Rite mason. The title of Freemason can only be conferred by a Grand Lodge of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons. In Reagan's case this was not done, probably because the ceremonies would have taken a full day to confer and the president's time was limited; therefore,President Reagan should only be referred to as a Shriner or Scottish Rite mason. The Shrine and Scottish Rite are concordant bodies and cannot confer the title Freemason on any person.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

George Bush has also on numerous occasions been referred to as a Freemason.The confusion as to President Bush being a member arises from the swearing in ceremonies at his inauguration. President Bush took his oath of office on the George Washington Bible which belongs to St. Johns Lodge in New York City. Because the Bible belonged to a Masonic Lodge many writers assumed he was a Freemason. The Bible was used at the request of the Joint Congressional Committee on Inaugural Ceremonies

This Bible was first used on April 30, 1789, by the Grand Master of the Masons in New York, to administer the oath of office to George Washington, the first president. Other presidents who took their oath of office with this Bible are Warren G. Harding, Dwight D. Eisenhower and Jimmy Carter.

http://www.mastermason.com/wilmettepark/pres.html

http://www.bessel.org/presmas.htm


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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Here was my favorite
Edited on Fri May-19-06 08:39 PM by Patsy Stone
A cross reference of illuminati and freemasons. But even they didn't want Nixon. :)

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/uspresidentasmasons.htm

1969-1974 Richard M. Nixon, 37th. President of the United states (R) Unknown Mason status. Was also a member of the Anti-American organization known as the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR). Was also a member of the all-male ultra-exclusive Bohemian Club to which every Republican President since Herbert Hoover has belonged. Secret Societies, Bohemian Club Vice President Spiro T. Agnew,1969-1973. Unknown Mason status. Vice President Gerald R. Ford, 1973 1974. Confirmed Mason. Note: Again we have a non mason President and a non Mason Vice President, replaced with a Mason Vice President before a non Mason President dies or is forced out of office to be replaced by Mason power.

At one point in Eisenhower's paragraph (I think) they call Nixon a socialist and then point to opening "Red" China as an example. :rofl:

It's a hoot!
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
17. George Washington, Ben Franklin and others...
PBS just aired a documentary just last night on this very subject.

Went into the history and "conspiracies" of both Freemasonry and the Illumanti, which i thought was really interesting to see on PBS!

I learned a few things. on the top of my head, apparently the when our Constitution was being written the French Revolution broke out and it was apparently considered to be provoked by the Illuminati - a secret society that Washington and Freemasons truly loathed and feared. Apparently Jefferson considered the Illiminati to be pretty radical, and needed to be tightly reigned in - some of their views apparently he did not reject - but the founders of our Constitution and all the leaders of the American Revoltuion were largely Freemasons according this documentary.

Interesting.. i can't recall the title of the film, but it was broadcast on KQED last night. if you want to do a google search for last night's schedule.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. Secret of the Masons, its hidden Past and Role in the Founding of America
Apparently there are two parts and i missed the first one. I'll be checking into this title and see if I can't get me a copy of both parts. Very informative as to the history of Freemasons and the Illuminati, when they got started, the conspiracy theories around etc etc.

Broadcast last night on PBS KQED (San Francisco)

http://www.kqed.org/tv/daily-schedule.jsp?Month=5&Date=18&Year=2006&Format=long#

Channel 9
Thu, May 18, 2006 -- 8:50pm


Secrets of Masons
Part 2 uncovers the secrets of Freemasonry, its hidden past and its surprising role in the founding of America
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. This widow's son found the PBS most enlightening.
Only those on the square get this. The Masons were (and perhaps still are) the largest organized group that champion individual liberty, religious freedom, and brotherhood with no regard to borders or tongues.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. History channel is running a program about this
saw it yesterday and will be again on May 21.

http://www.historychannel.com/thcsearch/thc_search.do?keywords=freemason&networkCode=THC&x=0&y=0

Meanwhile http://www.mastermason.com/wilmettepark/pres.html

George Washington
James Monroe
Andrew Jackson
James Polk
James Buchanan
Andrew Johnson
James Garfield
William McKinley
Theodore Roosevelt
Howard Taft
Warren Harding
Franklin Roosevelt
Harry Truman
Gerald Ford


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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-20-06 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
32. Thanks, guys--some of those sites are of interest
and I can find enough to fuel a debate. Please forgive me for going off on a tangent here, but it is helpful to understand this discussion in the overview.

My own interest in Freemasonry goes back to Rudyard Kipling's story--made movie--"The Man Who Would Be King"--which depicted two masons--Daniel Dravot and Peachy Carnehan, veterans of the Indian Wars, who travel to the mythical country of Kafiristan, where the natives mistake Danny's necklace--a level and a square--as a sign that their beloved "Xander" has returned, fueling the thought that Alexander the Great had been a freemason.

My interest peaked with this film, at a time when I was only 20, and I began to look for references to Freemasonry. As a female, it was difficult to learn much more than a few books that were available, except for a copy of a magazine (can't recall now which one) that gave a lot more information than even most books available at the time.

Another reference I found of great interest was a film about Sherlock Holmes called "Murder By Decree" with Christopher Plummer and James Mason, and how Holmes connected Jack the Ripper with the possibility that he was a Mason, and that the Masonic Order protected his identity from the law, and likely handed out their own justice in the end. I recommend it to anyone who loves conspiracies.

Meanwhile, in the real world, the Da Vinci Code and other books have made it all the more intriguing to take notice of secret societies, and to speculate on how much--or how little--these societies have influenced history through the years.

My friend is a conspiracy fan--whether that comes from her newfound belief in the fundie and evangelical world of "truths" I don't know, but she has her own world in which all is pretty much pre-ordained and such that no one has any real power except for those who are involved with such secret groups, and that we are but pawns in the ultimate scheme of things. I don't know how she reconciles her faith in such a world of fate and puppetry, but I find it somewhat amusing in the sense of how much paranoia she must have to possess in order to allow such revelations to rule her world. I love her dearly, but I find nothing less than utter frustration in trying to convince her otherwise.

To her, there is little difference between Freemasons, Illuminati, Gnosticism, Order of the Golden Dawn, Rosicrucians, Skull and Bones, etc. They are all out to silence those who love and preach of Jesus Christ, and all the wonders and miracles he bestowed, and of his holy bible--i.e., the New Testament. They tend to ignore large tracts of the Old Testament--too many contradictions, you know.

I've started to read Bertrand Russell's "Why I am Not a Christian" and in his introduction, there is one sentence that makes the most sense I have ever read in any discussion for or against the Christian faith: "Apart from logical cogency, there is to me something a little odd about the ethical valuations of those who think that an omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent Deity, after preparing the ground by many millions of years of lifeless nebulae, would consider Himself adequately rewarded by the final emergence of Hitler and Stalin and the H-bomb."

It becomes easy for me, a probable heretic, agnostic bordering on atheist, heathen and non-believer, to see the hundred, nay, thousands of contradictions in her organized faith that show the fragility of such faith, but to my best friend in all the world, the doubt I have only spurs her on that much more. Her fanaticism is no different that that expressed by so many in the past, where belief is part and parcel of matyrdom and the sacrifice of everything for one's beliefs.

I don't wish to shakes anyone's faith if they wholly believe in something--another very close friend was a Catholic, and she would often debate with me on such matters. She was very strong in her beliefs, and because she was still open-minded, she allowed for many interpretations on articles of faith, including such things as the role of women, and on evolution.

What I doubt, and what I feel is wrong, is the complete narrow focus of the evangelical movement, and how they are made to believe that anything outside of their own literal interpretation of the bible is heretical and therefore untrue. They accept a god who says in his "ten commandments" that they should not kill, and then they justify killing in his name. They accept the other commandments, and yet commit every single one of those crimes in his name at some time or another. They preach the bible, but hypocritically ignore anything that they don't agree with. Theirs is a world where they are the living proof of everything they supposedly hate.

Anyhow, the fact that my friend has been brainwashed into believing so many falsehoods is telling--the evangelicals and fundies would have the world believe that they are the chosen ones, because they believe in a literal translation of the bible. And all these secret societies somehow justify their rantings and ravings of paranoia out to destroy them and their righteousness. I've tried to argue with her that the bible of the evangelicals is missing quite a few sections, but she won't listen. Of course, the very recent discovery of a book by Judas is likely something they will ignore as well, and any of the other books removed by Martin Luther centuries ago are not counted, either. And while much of the New Testament was written LONG after the time of Jesus Christ, it's difficult to prove that it was written as anything OTHER than pure allegory to her and to the others who are in the cult of fundametalism.

She finds solace somehow in such limited beliefs. Her love of Christ is fueled by her devotion, and the Christ she believes in is somehow greater than the sum of all the parts she believes in. It's the equivalent to an adult fairy tale where the hero is almost always just beyond reach, somehow pure, chaste, and indestructable. Perhaps I'm not the best one to discuss it with her, because I gave up fairy tales a very long time ago.

Anyhow, any argument I can counter with facts is one I will gladly make. The paranoia she often expresses, of how secular humanism is destroying what she believes in, is best debated with logic and facts--and I am too close to her sometimes to destroy the fantasy world she has built for herself.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-20-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. You might want to read "The Illuminatus Trilogy"
It will show you how things might look if your tinfoil hat is very finely woven and you have a genius IQ and a great sense of "what-if." More importantly, if will provide an entertaining diversion from the hopeless task of trying to bring a "faith-based" zombie back to reality by mere facts.

http://www.rawilson.com/bookstore.shtml
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