Help me to understand one thing about his immigration thing?

[Jamison]

I wonder why they even cross the border in the first place. Things are bad here under Bush, you'd think they would just stay put. Is Mexico really that bad or what?

Enlighten me.

[buff2]

1. They love bu$h

He got over 40% of their vote in the last selection,and that was from the ones who are legal and can vote. Just think of the millions who will help keep the repukes in power. The Bu$h bastards will promise them the moon for their votes then ignore them when it's over. Only the have mores prosper under the bu$h nazi regime. The rest of us can rot in hell,for all they care.

[Breeze54]

5. not anymore......

The gop won't have their support. Not this time.

[Minnesota Libra]

15. For some reason liberals choose to ignore the fact........................

....that Mexicans by a large margin do support Bush. In fact I've gotten flamed for pointing that out but it comes from the mouths of Mexicans. I hope you have better luck pointing that out than I've had. :hug:

[Telly Savalas]

19. The 40% cited is a larger total than the population at large?

If that was the case, Kerry would be living in the White House.

[Minnesota Libra]

24. With almost half (40%) casting votes for neocons/fundies...........

....of the 11 million Mexicans in this country (legal and illegal) that figures out to be a little under 6 million votes. That couldn't keep neocons/fundies in power?? :sarcasm: Nuff said.

[High Plains]

30. That's just stupid.

More Hispanics voted against Bush than for him, and you say they contributed to his victory?

It seems like Hispanics voted for Kerry at a higher rate than the general population.

[Random_Australian]

2. It is worse in Mexico than America.

[mrcheerful]

3. Because in mexico, $90 a week is a lot of money they can send back

to support their families with. Most farms that they pick fruits and veggies for supply them with housing or a bunch of them will rent a place and they all chip in for rent, I've seen 25 mexicans living in a one bed room apartment in Texas. Also living conditions outside of a few large cities is rotten, no running water, outdoor bathrooms and shacks as homes. Most mexicans in mexico are dirt poor and have little to no chance at bettering themselves. Education is only for a select few in mexico, the list is endless on why they want out.

[Breeze54]

4. Yes, it is that bad! - see "The “Dirty War” Returns to Mexico"

http://www.narconews.com/Issue41/article1831.html

Please see my post here -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2635288&mesg_id=2635288

[Philosoraptor]

6. Few American realize the poverty they are coming from.

I've met enough Mexican immigrants to know that they are coming from the worst kind of poverty and desperation imaginable. They come here to escape all that.

[Breeze54]

7. I don't agree

I think many Americans understand they are extremely impoverished.
They just don't understand what's really going on, politically, in Mexico.
JMO.

[Minnesota Libra]

8. I've got news for you - Mexicans love Bush - in fact that's why..........

...the neocons/fundies are cozy with the Mexicans. I didn't believe it the first time I heard some Mexicans sing Bush's praises but they love him. Think about it. Add 11 million more voters to one party and you've got a force to be reckoned with. That's what lower education levels do for a whole group of people. That's why the neocons/fundies want to automatically make illegal aliens citizens. Then they will set back and wait for the next 11 million and repeat the whole process of automatic citizenship all over again.

Life being bad in Mexico is their problem to work out and shouldn't be ours. Vincente Fox is making it our problem by encouraging illegal aliens to come here illegally rather than apply for citizenship and do it legal like is required in their country. That isn't the bottom line concerning the illegal aliens from Mexico though. The bottom line is they want the southern states they believe are still theirs and if we won't give them all back they will take them. I've heard that from Mexicans and read it numerous times right here in these forums.

[RagingInMiami]

9. Bullshit

Mexicans do not love Bush.

[Minnesota Libra]

10. Then Mexicans are choosing to lie and for who knows what...........

....reason Mexicans themselves would choose to lie. Mexicans have told me and others that they indeed like Bush and republicans in general. Supposedly they see republicans/neocons as being more family friendly. I'm not going on my own information here, rather I'm relying on what has been explained to me by Mexicans themselves.

Simply on a personal note, I'd be inclined to think it's bull crap myself if that hadn't come out of the mouths of Mexicans themselves and my reply more than once has been, "You guys need to educate yourselves about the politics of this country because republicans/neocons could care less about anything but their own pockets. In other words, if you can make them money they love you, if you can't or don't make them enough money they could care less."

[RagingInMiami]

13. I've talked to Mexicans in Arizona, California, New Mexico

and Florida and never have I met one that supports Bush. And it's not like it never comes up. With me, it always comes up.

[xchrom]

17. i live in mexifornia -- and i don't know ANY mexifornians

who vote for ANY republicans. period.

i'm with you.

[Breeze54]

11. Oh ok...so it was the Mexicans who passed NAFTA????

"Life being bad in Mexico is their problem to work out and shouldn't be ours."
:crazy:

Keep drinking that koolaid and you'll be totally brain-dead before the November elections!

[Minnesota Libra]

14. Why is it that the Democrats/Liberals claim to be so............

....inclusive and yet when someone disagrees with a particular issue they get "Keep drinking that koolaid and you'll be totally brain-dead before the November elections!" :wtf: The illegal alien issue is about the only issue I routinely disagree with fellow liberals on. :shrug:

Now to the actual issue you raised and that being "so it was the Mexicans who passed NAFTA????":wtf: Of course not, but at the same time I don't remember seeing anything in NAFTA about welcoming 11 million illegal aliens either.

Next is the issue of what Mexico does with it's immigrants, especially the illegal aliens, that crash their border. :spank: They certainly don't go about granting automatic citizenship to them.:eyes: Yet we are supposed to.:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[buff2]

16. Very seldom do I post that I don't get attacked.

The last couple of days have been awful,just because I am against these people coming here and taking our jobs. What kind of a future will our kids and grandkids have if we are shoved aside to make room for all these illegal immigrants? Khrist on a carrot.....they are STEALING OUR SOCIAL SECURITY numbers and getting jobs with them....and everyone cheers them on! WTF is WRONG with these people that are in here DEFENDING their illegal criminal behavior? It boggles my mind.

[Minnesota Libra]

18. "It boggles my mind" - You and me both!! nt

[Solon]

21. When you dismiss a large factor as to WHY the Mexicans are here...

in the first place, expect to get slapped for stupidity.

[xchrom]

20. funny -- i've had the opposite experience -- support the immigrants

and all you hear is hysterical whining about mexicans stealing our jobs.

[Solon]

23. Who the hell is cheering them on?

And when did illegal immigration become the WORST CRIME to commit in this country, I mean, I would assume that it would be murder and other felonies that our worst than that.

[High Plains]

33. You assume the US economy is a zero-sum game.

That there are only X number of jobs in America, and if an undocumented worker takes one, that's a job lost. But more people, more workers, creates more jobs, too.

What are your kids and grandkids going to do? I don't know. Perhaps they could make a fortune selling services to people with names like Gomez, Lopez, and Herrera.

[Minnesota Libra]

26. Why is it that Mexico doesn't grant it's illegal aliens automatic.........

.....citizenship but expect and demand this country to do so?? :freak: I can't help but wonder how many illegal aliens/families of illegal aliens are trying to pass themselves off as legal residents with the "ignore the laws and do your own thing" approach. :banghead:

[High Plains]

34. Your concerns about Mexican immigration policy

have absolutely nothing to do with the debate over US immigration policy.

[Minnesota Libra]

41. Course not - "doing unto others..." would make sense can't have that nt

[High Plains]

45. Well, yes, you can, I suppose, accuse the Mexicans of hypocrisy.

Don't see how that's relevant to our discussion of US immigration policy.

[Breeze54]

48. Is this why you are so upset???

What does it matter what Mexico's illegal policy is? :shrug:

--------------------------------
Pawlenty outlines plan to fight illegal immigration
by Tom Scheck, Minnesota Public Radio
by Brandt Williams, Minnesota Public Radio
January 3, 2006
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2006/01/03_scheckt_immigrationplan/

Gov. Tim Pawlenty - REPUBLICON - GOP

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2006/05/02/68314
Rally stresses immigrants' value
"the undocumented immigrant population in Minnesota could range from 75,000 to 100,000"
That's all??

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_researchc536
The INS estimated in February 2003 that the illegal alien population
in Massachusetts was about 87,000 residents.

California has 2 million or so!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You might want to read this:

http://usliberals.about.com/od/immigration/a/IllegalImmi.htm

Illegal Immigration Explained - Profits & Poverty, Social Security & Starvation

From Deborah White, Your Guide to Liberal Politics: U.S..
May 19 2006

Why the Federal Government Can't End Illegal Immigration

Illegal immigration into the United States is a highly profitable proposition
for both employers and the US government, and it also benefits Mexico,
which is the largest source country of undocumented immigrants into the US.

n Fall 2005, the US and Mexican governments are silently, and actively,
enticing illegal immigrants to enter this country and to work illegally.
Poverty-stricken immigrants respond to the financial enticements..
and then are blamed by US citizenry for illegally being in the US.

The purpose of this 4-part article is to explain why the US federal government
can't afford and doesn't soon plan to to end illegal immigration.

More at the Link....

;)

[Minnesota Libra]

50. I'm not as upset as you may think - I just want...............

.....American LEGAL citizens give priority in everything. Yet at DU if a person doesn't agree with open wide the borders and let anyone and everyone in they get flamed. Go figure.

on edit: I didn't always live in Minnesota. Before moving here I lived in a large western city that went from 25% illegal aliens to almost 60% the last census. Oh, and notice I'm not picking out any one race/group/country, in other words I'm not being racist.

[Breeze54]

28. Nafta and the violence of the "Drug War" are a lot of the reasons

they are coming here. And the value of the peso, or lack of value.
I don't disagree with you about the 20 million! It's insane!!
But the people hiring them are the real problem and raising the minimum wage to
a level that would sustain American's, would draw more Americans to those jobs
and dry up the source of those jobs to the immigrants who snuck over the border.
Meaning more Americans would do those jobs.
This is a huge issue, which is making the gop happy. Their newest wedge issue.
I'm well aware about the jobs issue. It isn't just lettuce picking and house cleaning.
But America and NAFTA are a lot of the reasons they are fleeing here. CAFTA too.
You should read that website I posted above. It's quite interesting and informative.
http://www.narconews.com/Issue41/article1831.html

[Minnesota Libra]

29. On that I agree totally, NAFTA and corporations are a huge part...........

....of the problem but that doesn't mean we should automatically grant citizenship to anyone who has broken our immigration laws.

I've said before and will say a million times more, if we hit these big corporations as well as the mom-and-pop operations with a $1 million a day fine for each and every illegal alien they employ we would close down the problem quick. So if a company/corporation employed 5 illegal aliens for a month that would be $5 million a day for 30 days = $150 million a month. Don't think that would impress any corporation to hire only legal Americans?? Then if the IRS came up next and hit these same corporations and mom-and-pop operations with fines and penalties for all the unpaid taxes for each and every illegal alien employed we'd put some real teeth into the laws. Couple that with a good electrified fence, car barriers, and an "anything goes" no-man's land and you've got some laws that can be enforced. I know I will get flamed for this one but that would be my plan along BOTH borders - not just one border.

[Breeze54]

31. You didn't mention raising the minimum wage. ?? n/t

[Minnesota Libra]

38. That comes AFTER we secure our own borders. nt

[Breeze54]

43. Then they will never be secure.... n/t

[High Plains]

35. Your plan sounds like a plan for mass economic disruption

So, "El Patio" Mexican restaurant is discovered to have a dishwasher without papers. He's been there two weeks. El Patio is fined $14 million dollars, which of course it doesn't have. Net result: One undocumented worker deported, one business shut down, 25 people unemployed, and one nice place to have dinner gone.

Multiply by X million.

[Minnesota Libra]

39. Easy solution, hire LEGAL American workers only. nt

[High Plains]

46. We should try a thought experiment:

Imagine you had your wish and all undocumented workers suddenly vanished. What would happen?

I suggest there would be massive dislocations in the US economy, followed by price increases on everything from housing to lawn care to food, and people in shitty jobs would still get shitty wages.

What do you think would happen?

[Minnesota Libra]

47. Well one thing for sure...................

....maybe then we could rebuild our economy into something beside a cheap service economy.

This is the one and only issue I routinely disagree with fellow liberals on. I just can't for the life of me figure out why people disagree with securing our own borders and making sure our OWN LEGAL CITIZENS have employment, housing, health care, social services, on and on before we try taking on anyone else. Oh, and notice I DO NOT discriminate as to which border needs secured either because they both need to be shut down to all illegal aliens.

on edit: I'm getting tired of having to go over the same old same old, time after time. I would like to see our economy saved and OUR LEGAL citizens give a fair shake for once. That is not going to happen with 11 million plus illegal aliens granted automatic citizenship every ten to twenty years.

[High Plains]

32. Stop this crap!

You know full well that Hispanics voted Democratic by a large margin. Why do you make this shit up?

[Minnesota Libra]

40. All I know is what many told me themselves. You are right on one thing...

....I don't know for sure how they voted all I know is they told me they supported Bush because "he's strong on family values". :shrug:

[High Plains]

44. Yes, the Hispanic vote is not monolithic, but it tends Democratic

Some Hispanics will vote Republican on "family values" issues, but it is clear that a majority of Hispanic votes vote Democratic. And I would wager the Republicans have lost Hispanic votes because of the immigration blow-up this year.

[annabanana]

12. Are there 'two' Mexicos?

A rich upper crust, living in gated splendor, supporting B*sh's oligarchy, sitting down hard on a Mexico of the desperately poor?

This is America's future. Look well, Oh Wolves.... look well.

[Phx_Dem]

22. The minimum wage in Mexico is $6.07 per DAY

It's even worse in other countries in central america. A lot of Hondurans, Salvadorans and Nicaraguans have been "sneaking" into Mexico to work there.

[Breeze54]

49. Try $2 to $3.00 a day if that. 40% unemployment too! n/t

[jerry611]

25. Compared to Mexico or Cuba, we are paradise

The middle class does not exist in Mexico. You live in Mexico and you are either very rich or very poor. There are no jobs and families are going hungry. So they come to America to work and make money. And even if they make $3/hour, it is a lot of money when they convert it to pesos and send it back to Mexico.

It is estimated that over $60 billion dollars is sent into Mexico every year by immigrants.

Truth is that there is not many places in the world right now where things are going well. In Europe there is double-digit unemployment and almost no economic growth. Russia is still a mess. Africa is still a mess. Asia is all slave labor.

World economy right now is a mess. Mostly because of oil and bad leadership. And when I say bad leadership, I mean on the international level as well. The United Nations has been a joke for quite awhile now. Koffi Annan and his corrupt son need to be thrown out. He's don jack-shit for this world.

[MercutioATC]

27. Mexico isn't all tequila and cheap hookers...

...unless you're a wealthy American tourist, that is.

[Cleita]

36. One meal a day of tortillas and beans might have a lot to do

with it. I don't think it's so much for themselves as watching their families go without. Many of the immigrants are teenagers averaging fifteen or sixteen years of age.

They usually have to go to work at that age or even younger to help the family out. A busboy I once worked with told me he had been working since he was six years old. I used to cash his checks for him because he was illiterate and I had to do the X thing with him.

This is why el Norte looks so attractive to them. Those dollars they earn translate into a lot of pesos when they send money home.

[High Plains]

37. Let's not overstate how bad Mexico is.

Mexico does indeed have a middle class, although it's standard of living has been under severe pressure for the past 20 years or so. It has a significant industrial base. It's a hell of a lot better off than some countries, including its Central American neighbors. (Christ, I remember flying into Mexico City after being in Nicaragua. It felt like Europe.)

But it has been unable--for complicated reasons--to generate enough jobs for its population. Mexican workers have been flowing north for at least a century. Sometimes, the US attempts to regularize the flow, as it did with the bracero program back in the 1950s. Sometimes, the US just ignores it, as has been the case for the past 20 years. Sometimes, the US wakes up and freaks out, like now.

[Cleita]

42. Also, it's not the educated and the middle classes who are

coming here. And if they do they blend into the population better. It's the rural campensino who is on the bottom of the ladder who is looking for a more hopeful life.