Switzerland. The size of 2 New Jerseys. FOUR OFFICIAL LANGUAGES

[Bluebear]

German, French, Italian, and Romansh. What is the big problem, "English-only" folks? Yes, it is better for the immigrant's economic health to learn English. Enormously better. But somehow a lot of the people who are concerned about this issue seem to have something else stuck in their craw about this. And I don't even know where the craw is.

Think Switzerland. Great clocks, terrific chocolate. And FOUR languages.

[Heidi]

1. My point exactly.

Socialized medicine and direct Democracy, too. :thumbsup:

[Bluebear]

2. You'd figure HEIDI would be my first fan :)

:toast:

Teaching our kids more than one language would certainly serve them well too!

[NewJeffCT]

11. The Swiss medical system isn't exactly socialized

I believe the government provides for a minimum standard among all Swiss, but they still utilize private health insurance. However, it is far superior to our system here and would likely be the easiest system for us to implement here in the States. (The NY Times had a lengthy article on the Swiss system last year)

[Heidi]

16. I agree with you.

I may have chosen the wrong term. Health insurance is federally mandated, and how much we pay is based on income. Health insurance here is very expensive but states subsidze the payments for low-income residents. But I don't think anyone has to worry about receiving adequate health care, and I've never heard of anyone being afraid to go to the doctor, just because they can't afford it.

:hi:

[NewJeffCT]

23. Didn't see you're from Switzerland

I guess I shouldn't be lecturing you on the Swiss health care system... Being from the Hartford, CT area - the so-called Insurance Capital of the World - national health care is one of my pet issues.

[Heidi]

24. I'm from Oklahoma!

But my husband, Call Me Wesley, is Swiss, and we live here. :hi:

[cboy4]

3. In the words of Dubya:

War's Switzerland?

[driver8]

6. Isn't Switzerland that country up there by Norway??

I don't really care...ah'm fixin' to load up muh little buddy here. Gotta keep it away from Cheney, though...if he gets his hands on it Ah'll never see it agin!

[regnaD kciN]

4. C'est vrai! J'habitait a Genève quand j'etait petit...

Of course, there, one started off speaking French, but one was expected to learn two other languages before graduating from what we would call high school. Generally, people picked German and English, but I'm sure others picked Italian. (Romansch was only spoken in the mountains of eastern Switzerland, and few outside that region knew it.)

On the other hand, there was always a cultural split between the majority of the country where German was the primary language, and the part to the southwest where French dominated. Of course, what else would you expect between those two cultures? And the level of contentiousness was limited to some stereotypical caricaturing of each other -- nothing that could turn to real conflict. I'm sure there was likewise some tension between the German and Italian (southeast) sections, but I never really spent much time there.

At times, I do wish I could move back to Geneva, but they'd never allow me in nowadays -- I'm not rich enough. (We're not the only country with some attitude problems about immigrants; in the case of the Swiss, it used to be Italians and Spanish, although it's probably Muslims there too, now.)

[malaise]

5. Belgium

Dutch and Flemish

[I_Make_Mistakes]

9. I remember our tour guide saying that 5 languages were

officially spoken in Switzerland. Was that your point. I think Dutch was the 5th, but not positive.

[malaise]

12. Switzerland has several languages

but my point was that Belgium has two dominant languages. This language rubbish is merely pandering to the worst elements. I believe people should learn as many languages as possible but the current discussion is more about racism and xenophobia.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

13. OK I got you. I had 4 yrs of French in Middle School 3yrs Spanish

in HS and 1 yr Latin in HS. I took an additional yr in College of Spanish. I am very much an advocate of language diversity.

[Heidi]

19. German, French, Italian and Romanche.

And kids begin learning a second language in elementary school. I think it's excellent, and agree wholeheartedly with you. :thumbsup:

Incidentally, more than 50 percent of the people in Zurich speak English, and I've never met a Swiss person who was rude to me for speaking English when my German and Italian vocabularies were broad enough to conduct business. :thumbsup:

[TahitiNut]

28. I had a fun time once in a general store near Thun

On our meandering way from the headwaters of the Rhone to Interlaken, we were attracted by the public swimming 'beach' in Thun. Having our swimsuits with us but no beach towels, we stopped at a general store. I, equipped with American English, decades-old high school German, and two months of total immersion restaurant French, forayed forth to purchase two beach towels, confident in the linguistic diversity of Switzerland and my cosmopolitan attitude. Alas and alack, I didn't know the words for 'beach towel' in either German (we were 'scientific' and Brecht apparently never swam) or French (I've yet to see them on a menu). Neither the proprietor nor two local patrons knew English. Charades were the order of the day, accompanied by a polyglot of hints and coaching. It took about 20-30 minutes, but I emerged triumphantly from the store with two beach towels in hand, leaving three Swiss behind with broad smiles and a sense of international mercantile accomplishment. We spent a few hours at the gorgeous public 'beach' (mostly grass, actually) enjoying the sunshine between freezing immersions in Lake Thun. (Those glacial waters are sure chilly, even in early July.)

Those beach towels lasted for years and years. Every time I used them, I smiled and took a brief trip back to Thun and a day in the sun.

[Canuckistanian]

38. "Brecht apparently never swam", LOL!

Great anecdote!

[troubleinwinter]

40. More than that.

My great grandmother was from Switzerland. She spoke Italian, High German & Low German, French, Romansh, English, and several different Swiss dialects.

I asked her why she learned these dialects. She said because there were isolated valleys where their own dialect was the only things spoken and understood. This was many years ago, of course, but Switzerland never fell apart with so many languages and different dialects.

She taught me to sing 'Silent Night' in German, and say "The tea is served" in Romansh.

[Algorem]

7. they should be on everyone's watch list.

.

[greekspeak]

8. Those non-warmongering money keeping watch making devil worshippers!!

Do you really want to be like THEM? THey make CHOCOLATE! They won't even protect the world from terra by going to war! They try to control your mind with their Swiss Miss from the cocoa package. We should be MURKINS who speak MURKIN...Gawd's language! :sarcasm:

[Heidi]

20. Toooooo funny, Greekspeak.

Call Me Wesley's 93-year-old grandmother is fond of pointing out that her apartment building is just across the street from a county prison in canton Zurich. When I asked her whether that's ever caused her any problems, she remarked (in English), "Oh, no! They're very clean and well-behaved."

[NewJeffCT]

10. My great grandmother came here from Italy around 1900

She passed away in the mid 1970s. She hardly spoke English when she died. She lived in Middletown, CT where a majority of the population from 1900 to probably around the mid 70s was either of Italian or Sicilian descent. She had no pressing need to learn English.

However, all of her childen spoke fluent English & Italian.

Unfortunately, her grandchildren never learned to speak Italian & only spoke English.

So, don't tell me immigrants must learn English to survive in this country, or how when your grandparents came here they were forced to learn English by law.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Yeah, but look at how tumultuous their society is.

All those riots, wars, and interfering in other countries.

[Laughing Mirror]

17. Yes indeedy

A perpetual bloodbath among and between those warring tribes in those lakes and mountains these past 500 years of that country's existence. How it's held together so long is a mystery.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

15. Think also BANKS.

You want to roll out the red carpet to the big investors by speaking their language.

[Egalitariat]

18. Does Switzerland have a tough immigration law? And do they enforce it?***

nm

[Call Me Wesley]

21. No tough immigration laws - tough about citizenship.

Switzerland considers itself a country that should not attract immigration. However, we have plenty of immigrants (30% of the population of Geneva are immigrants) and the laws are not tough. It's a long process to obtain Swiss citizenship, though.

Edit for clarification of the subject line.

[leftchick]

22. when I was there I noticed MANY spoke English as well

I also have a Swiss friend who is fluent in five languages. Switzerland was gorgeous! Like heaven on earth! :)

[Heidi]

25. Come back and visit again sometime!

Switzerland is very visitor-friendly. :hi:

[leftchick]

29. I would love to!

The next time I would like to travel the near the Italian border and Lugano. I was in Zurich and Lucerene last time. Simply lovely! I am jealous of you! :hi:

[Heidi]

31. Right on!

We live five minutes from the Italian border. :hi:

[slackmaster]

26. And those Army Knives...

...Fabulous! This is the one I carry at all times:



ETA Switzerland has sound economic and social reasons to maintain four official languages, due to its geography and history.

USAmericans by and large never even need a passport.

[Maestro]

27. My response.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Maestro/6 This is an old thread of mine and some of the links no longer work, but it is still pertinent to the discussion today.

[Heidi]

32. Thank you, Maestro.

I knew from some of your other posts that you were an educator/administrator, but I didn't bilingual education was your specialty. Thank you for contributing to understanding. (One of the hideous groups to which you link in your journal is fighting tooth and nail against the sovereignty of the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. Thanks for throwing some light on that group's darkness. :hi: )

[Maestro]

35. No problem Heidi

I am surprised that not more people know about some of these financially well backed organizations that are basically closet (sometimes not) racist organizations that get good PR from the MSM! The immigration threads have really upset around here lately. But we must be careful when attacking those who are defenseless and those who are basically being abused by the system. And to top it off now we have the useless English as an official language crap to deal with. Argh! Thanks again for the kind words.

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. There are also four officially recognised languages in Austria...

(German, Hungarian, Slovenian and Croatian). And Belgium has three (French, German and Dutch). The Netherlands has two (Dutch and Frisian).

Any law making English the 'official' language of the US is essentially pointless anyway; it's not going to change the fact that there are millions of people in this country who conduct their daily business in languages other than English. Here in Atlanta, one can drive through some areas and not see any businesses with signs posted in English; there are bars, restaurants, and shopping centres where the signage is primarily in Chinese, Vietnamese and Spanish. The same thing is true in most major cities, and making a useless law isn't going to change that.

[lastliberalintexas]

33. Who needs an official language?

While I applaud the Swiss for at least trying to include all their residents in naming their official languages, personally I think it's just silly for a country to have any official langauge. As though it's the only language people must or even should know how to speak. Even an official designation as inclusive as the one of Switzerland is still going to exclude some component of society.


But then what do I know? I'm a godless commie pinko who's teaching her 2 year old English and French. And then we'll both learn Spanish and Italian together. :)

[dysfunctional press]

34. apples and oranges...

look at the geography and history of switzerland, and those four languages make total sense.

and ultimately, the u.s. will probably become a two-language society- english/spanish...the demographics and the numbers can't be denied.

but we're not there yet, and it's not something that can be forced- just look at all the progress we've made vis-a-vis the metric system.

it has to happen naturally, over time, as the population shifts...which it is doing.

[Heidi]

39. Not really apples and oranges.

The four officials of languages of Switzerland represent the native languages of areas that once were parts of other countries but are now part of Switzerland. It's not really too much different from US regions that once were part of Mexico, or were properties of other countries or Native American sovereign nations.

[dysfunctional press]

42. more like apples and watermelons then.

switzerland is also much smaller than the u.s....more like a state. there are no large areas of french-speakers in new england, even though much of it borders on quebec.
the american southwest is the only place where the comparison might make sense- but then we're only talking two languages, not four, and over a much larger area than switzerland- so canada, with it's english/french thing might be a more valid comparison.

i'm not aware of any areas in the u.s. outside reservations, were any native american languages are commonplace.

[Bluebear]

49. 'there are no large areas of french-speakers in new england'

There are a great many families in Maine and New Hampshire whose first language is still French. The younger generations are proficient in English, of course, having assimilated, but French is still widely spoken.

[dysfunctional press]

51. i wasn't even aware of that...

we never ran across any french-speakers, or french signage when we traveled through the area a couple years back.
go to the southwest u.s., and spanish is everywhere.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

36. olde europe. What do they know? We are AMERIKA, dammit!

and therefore, we are right, even if we are wrong. Because we never admit we are wrong, we have to be right, right?
Right!

Besides, we got four languages here, too.

We got Southside Irish, Southern, Bawston and hoity toity midwest.

[Gregorian]

37. But the Furher Bush wants an Aryan America.

I am just finishing my morning cup of espresso, and upon waking, I've had this thought that won't go away regarding the image orientation of the conservatives. Maybe this isn't the place to post it. But it's all about blonde, blue eyed, english speaking, nongay, sober, etc.

It has something to do with body versus spirit. And spiritual poverty.

[Igel]

41. Yes, and it's to maintain public order and discourage

overt discrimination.

Not that it works completely: there's antagonism between some groups, rivalry, if you would. And Romansch ... it'll be dead in a couple of generations, in all likelihood. Neat little language, with some truly bizarre excrescent consonants in some dialects.

But the reasoning isn't the same as here; then again, it's unclear exactly what the Senate's reasoning is, because the provision has few, if any, real consequences.

But countries designate languages as official for a number of reasons; we'd have nearly a thousand, and the translation costs would be exorbitant, if we used Switzerland's reasoning.

(As for the Austrian example ... Slovene isn't probably a viable concern in Carinthia and Styria. As with Rhaeto-Romansch in Switzerland, it's mostly a symbolic thing.)

Does anybody know if the local legislatures and governments in, say, Suisse romane, are required to have everything translated and issued in Italian, German (Swiss or "Hoch"), or Romansch?

[Cleita]

43. You gotta know that the residents speak more than one of

the languages and some all of them. I met Swiss also who speak better English that our pResident.

The more languages you learn, the better you understand each other.

[bobbieinok]

44. and many speak/read English

[Neshanic]

45. One New Jersey has four languages...I'm just saying....not for nothin'.

[pitohui]

46. human brain development

many people can't learn a foreign language if they were not exposed to it when young just as many bird species cannot learn a new song if they never heard it in the nest

i really care not a fig abt the switzerland example, it's wonderful the 2 year old in switzerland has opportunities i never had and can therefore speak all these multiple languages but i live in the real world where i am already a grown-up and my brain already frozen

you are comparing apples and oranges but feel free to insult people for being stupid for reasons of brain physiology that is beyond our control

i'm sure calling people stupid wins you lots of friends

many many many people who didn't hear english in their childhood will NEVER speak it well on a deep level, many many many people who didn't hear spanish in their childhood will NEVER speak it well on a deep level, you call all these people stupid and their barriers imaginary at your own peril

[The Straight Story]

47. Ummmm....they have official languages?

Is sanskrit one of them? Why not???

[Recursion]

50. Well...

They have official languages, but that's not to say every citizen knows all 4. Just everyone who works for the government (including train operators). They learn all 4 languages because plenty of people only know their one language.

Switzerland also has nearly-universal military service and gun ownership, which make this yellow dog democrat happy :)

[4freethinking]

48. Switzerland is

also one of least corrupt governments in the world(7th). I attribute that to Switzerland is still in many ways a decentralized state where the cantons still have the balance of power. The power is dispersed and not concentrated like ours. When power is concentrated/centralized the more easier it can be corrupted by the few. That's why Thomas Jefferson looked to the Swiss Confederacy as an example for our government. And in 1849 Switzerland took some of his ideas(that were in our constitution) and put it in their constitution. The Swiss still adhere to those principals/laws while our government no longer does. Switzerland also rates first in freedom of the press per Reporters Without Borders.

[genie_weenie]

52. Hey were just getting in line with our great ally

Turkey. Turkey has for 90 years (until very recently in an effort to woo the EU) outlawed the usage of the Kudish language in the "Nation". This included a ban on teaching Kurdish, naming children Kurdish names, radio braodcast in Kurdish, religious ceremonies in Kurdish and just plain speaking Kurdish.

So, jump on broad and emulate our Ally, Turkey! (Armenians need not apply...)

[teknomanzer]

53. English only is a great way...

to keep Americans ignorant, uncultured, and xenophobic. In the whole western hemisphere only two countries have English as a majority language. One of those two countries has French as a second language. This english only paradigm serves only to alienate Americans from the rest of the hemispere specifically, and the world in general. In addition it gives Americans an absurd sense of superiority. Well guess what? If you can only speak one language you are limited. And thats what english only will ultimately do... put limits on the american people. It will cut both ways folks. Sure, it will force them "damn feriners to learn them some english," but it will also limit any exposure to the posibility of learning an new language.