The end of Will and Grace

[dsc]

Will and Grace was an important show. As the first long running show with a gay or lesbian lead character it introduced a stable, if shallow and vain, gay male to America. Since it was a commedy no one could be a well developed character with complex lives but at times Will and Grace made straight America think about what gay America is forced to think about.

Jack's coming out to his mother was both hysterical and poignet. While it was absured that anyone wouldn't know Jack was gay, it presented in a funny way the real struggle that gays face telling their families they are gay. Will's aloofness from his family showed the flip side of the same issue.

With this show's demise we have no recurring gay characters on network tv left except the role in ER. One has to hope that is temporary but given the failure of two shows with gay characters (Book of Daniel and Crumbs) one has to wonder. Gays and lesbians deserve role models. More importantly, a realistic vision of life in America includes gays and lesbians. Will and Grace lost its way for a time. Frankly, it lasted about a year longer than it should have. But, the next gay man or lesbian woman should soon be visiting our homes weekly. If not, tv land will be all the poorer for it.

[ToolTex]

1. What he said.

n/t

[Mythsaje]

2. And for the dramatic (and sometimes funny) side of things

we have had Queer As Folk and (currently) The 'L' Word on SHO.

I miss QAF.

[knitter4democracy]

3. I had an idea once for a movie. Might make a better tv show.

It was about a woman's life as remembered through diary entries. She realizes early on in her life that she's different from other girls and then comes to the realization that she's a lesbian. She stays in the closet, though, as she's from a small farm town in the Midwest (patterned on the one I grew up in) and her father's a total bigot. She goes away to college, gets into journalism, and then ends up getting her own talk show (like Oprah). After getting syndicated, she ends up coming out during a show on abused children while crying with a guest. The networks drop her like a stone, so she is adrift for awhile, trying to figure out her life. She's in her late thirties by then with a great wife, and then her father gets sick enough that someone has to come home and take over the farm.

Her father doesn't want to talk to her at all, refuses to even see her in the room, but her brother won't come back home, and it's up to her to save the family farm. Drama ensues.

That's as far as I got, and I think it would really make for a neat movie or something. I don't think it's for me to write it, though. I've tried many times, but it's not for me. Maybe someone else can do something with it.

[grasswire]

4. how did it end?

Were there any surprises?

[Beaverhausen]

25. I want to know that, too.

I was on vacation and set my DVR to record but for some reason it didn't.

If anyone can summarize I'd be much obliged! :hi:

[julialnyc]

5. I thought that David and Keith

on Six Feet Under were wonderful characters.... who had the most "normal" relationship out of the family. I remember how my husband used to get uncomfortable with them when the show first came on (uncomfortable with the love scenes), but actually grew out of his immaturity as the show went on. It was nice to see something as simple as a tv show help him evolve as a person.

[dsc]

8. I was a huge fan of that show

I felt David was about as complex a gay character I have ever seen.

[rocktivity]

6. What bothered me about Will and Grace

was that they were the sexual "moderates" while Jack and Karen were the "extremists." It was Jack and Karen who made Will and Grace look "normal" and acceptable as role models. Jack and Karen--now THERE'S a sitcom!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Placebo]

7. I never watched it.

As a gay man, none of the Gay TV ever connected with me. I couldn't stand QAF since it was so stereotypical and was just a big soap opera. I didn't like Will and Grace for the same reasons, except in a boring sitcom way.

In the end, I'm not sure these shows helped the gay community much. What they did, in my opinion, was make the stereotypical and extravagant gay man some sort of hilarious sideshow entertainment for most of straight America. If the only gay people being shown on TV, and for a lot of people, maybe the only gay people they are exposed to, are so lacking in diversity, it can't be a good thing.

But in the end, I guess these are problems with American TV in general.

[SoCalDem]

9. Agree 100%.. Shows that follow the "What's Happening?"

formula and hone in on obvious stereotypes do no favors to any group of people.
Shows that have all kinds of people without putting a spotlight on a few characters are usually better at the role model thing..

Carrie's character in ER is not flamboyant..her character is just HER.. Her private life has been zeroed in on ..as have other characters.. BUT it's the storyline that;s important

Until people are recognized as people first, instead of "gay-actor".."black-doctor".."asian-student".. we won't get very far..

Oddly, the shows that do the best job of presenting people as just people?.. HGTV... Their silly home makeover shows often have gay couples, and the presentation of their homes' makeovers is exactly the same as anyone elses..

My gay friends long for ORDINARY....not special :)

[Placebo]

11. Totally.

"Ordinary, not special."

And I agree that a lot of those makeover shows are great for seeing what real people are like, including gay men. They are just lumped in with the rest of the people, as they should be. Same for ER.

[Mythsaje]

17. Did you ever watch QAF?

I gotta ask, because I didn't think the characters were at all stereotypical. I'm left wondering if you watched a couple of episodes and assumed that from what you saw. Because my wife and I watched every single episode, and thought that all the characters showed a lot of depth of characters. There were no "clowns." Emmett, who was the only one of the main characters who "flamed," was big-hearted and sincere, and, while often funny, was no joke. Michael, who came across originally as a "nice guy" could be an insufferable, self-righteous prig at times. Even his mother, who was as proud as a GLAAD mother could be, had her own bouts with this same self-righteousness.

Brian, the party-boy, played at being the devil-may-care slut, but he was fanatically loyal to his friends, and far more dedicated to the cause of gay rights than he wanted to pretend. He acted like a selfish jerk, but that's not who he was. Of all the characters, he probably grew the most throughout the run of the show.

If these characters are stereotypes, I've been terribly misinformed all my years of writing and reviewing.

[Cleita]

10. Isn't Rosie O'Donnell trying to develop a family sitcom

with gay characters? I haven't heard much about it lately but if the networks don't want to offend the Xtian right, HBO might be happy to do it. After all they are doing a show about polygamists right now.

[sandnsea]

12. Big Love is a spoof

It isn't meant to take a real look at the life of polygamists, except maybe the compound. The main characters are a complete spoof, which a gay family sitcom wouldn't be. The comparison kind of misses the mark. HBO has already had David & Keith, and Rosie's Family Cruise, so a gay family comedy isn't really groundbreaking for them. If they did it, it would be because it was quality programming. Big Love is actually kind of trashy, in a classic nighttime soap opera way. The characters and writing are what really drive the show, not the premise.

[Cleita]

13. Bad comparison.

I was pointing out that HBO is willing to tackle taboo subject matter. I'm sure a program about gays would be handled completely differently.

[sandnsea]

16. Yeah

That particular comparison just gave me a little twinge, that's all. Some people really do think Big Love is about real Mormon polygamy though, good grief.

[Rowdyboy]

14. For all its faults, the show could be hilarious or deeply moving.....

Often it was neither, but sometimes....

I always found the relationship between Will and Grace vaguely disturbing though. Several of my closest friends are women but I've never had a relationship resembling theirs. It seemed destined to destroy both their chances of happiness.

My guy and I will miss it.

[ruggerson]

15. I think the value of Will and Grace

even though it was based on silly comedic caricatures, is that out there in no man's land America, little gay kids were able to see gay folks on television and know that they were not alone.

That's a very important thing for a nine or ten year old gay child to process. Because it helps them absorb the reality that society is the one that's fucked up about this issue, not gay people, and helps them gain a sense of self worth at the age when they most need it.

[MazeRat7]

18. Well there was Vito on the Sopranos... but they whacked him tonight....

For being gay..... :shrug:

MZr7

[tritsofme]

19. Ahhhhh....I recorded that episode...

I really thought Tony was going to let it be...

Don't say any more about it please.

heh

[MazeRat7]

20. ooops so sorry. Nothing more will be said.... but go home and watch!!!!

[Freedom_Aflaim]

22. ugh...I havent seen it yet

Although I suppose its not THAT big of a spoiler...kinda saw it coming.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

21. Well there's Vito on the Sopranos..

(ducking the shoe flying my way).....


(on edit, just saw the post above)...

[Yollam]

23. I'd like to see a gay character where being gay is NOT AN ISSUE.

It seems like being gay is always the central focus of these characters' lives. And they are always some stereotype.

Psycho slasher (Nip/Tuck)
Noble Saint (Melrose Place)
Fussy Neurotic (Will & Grace)
Flamboyant Femme (Will & Grace)

I suppose the character of David on "Six Feet Under" is a bit closer to that ideal...

[Freedom_Aflaim]

24. Gilligan and the Skipper

Definitely Gay and they never made a big deal about it.

They lived together happily in the same hut. Two other single women on the Island and never they never shacked up with'm