Pathetic.

[cssmall]

Arguing about horses and other things and then a spite post about a two year old child being run over by an SUV. Pathetic. Is this what we are? Raving mad, bickering amongst one another like trolls underneath a bridge arguing which piece of flesh they'll get to eat. I simply have a modest proposal since we are sometimes so keen on being clever around here (yes, the swipe is intended). Stop arguing and start debating.

If you feel that horse racing is barbaric, then try to explain exactly why it is so barbaric. If you are in favor of the sport, then explain your reasons. There is no circumstance by which the death of a child should be used for bartering a swipe at arguments. It's sickening. In fact, it's horrifying.

Sometimes we have to get off our perfect little quests to become the world's most perfect little liberal and realize that within us at things we like and dislike (we still somewhat have that right). As for Leopold, if he lied or was lied to and reported too early, we won't know. Stop speculating, we'll know shortly, I assure you. There is no reason that the wars and name calling that erupts should be so destructive in nature as that it does not encourage personal growth, but we're too damn caught up in being right all the time to realize that I guess. No, I believe the actual term would be myopic.

Planning for the future? Fuck no, all you want is to win and look cute on this little website. Fighting for the future? Sure, but don't look down on the freepers too hard when you call them the 101st keyboardists. And, how often does it occur that shining starts oft steal their thoughts from those with a brain and no journalistic or blogsphere license? I am not sure, yet pieces are inherently strangely familiar after having read posts and then a reponse from one of our fine fellows.

We are a party of the people; not a party of the sovereign individual. You want to be like that, fine, don't come knocking on my door and be sure to vote for whomever gets you excited in their cult of personality. All I ask for is this: stop treating other ideas as if they were anathema to the site, respect opinions and at least treat people equally. I guess, though, that might be too much to ask. And, that's pathetic.

Edit: needed to look cleaner.

[ourbluenation]

1. (((((applause))))))

well done...

[Mandate My Ass]

2. Hey now

:applause:

[Jane Austin]

3. Bravo! Bravissimo!!

Great post!

[northamericancitizen]

4. Recommended. "Stop arguing and start debating. " Indeed.

[BrklynLiberal]

5. Thanks for saying something that needed to be said, and saying it so well.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Canuckistanian]

6. Judging by the absentee recommendations

I'd say you did a fine job of criticizing the "circular firing squad" mentality that sometimes exists around here. Even if it's not always acknowledged.

I'm always astounded that if some champion or another doesn't get immediate and resoundingly victorious results, they're vilified. Or the failure is endlessly parsed until it has no meaning.

Hey, the Republicans never acted this way on their long, slow climb up the ladder to political supremacy, (not that they used the best methods getting there) but they at least understand the value of coherency and doggedness.

There's plenty of blame to go around, but right now is the greatest opportunity to recapture the greatness that was the Democratic party.

A pity if it's squandered on infighting and small-minded second-guessing.

K&R.

[QC]

7. Well said. I don't recognize DU anymore.

I don't know what has happened to the place, but between the relentless groupthink and the unnecessary nastiness surrounding practically every issue, well, I don't know what to say.

[Hissyspit]

14. All nothing new - it has always gone on. DU is a different place every

week. Depends what is going on in the world.

[QC]

15. It wasn't always this nasty.

I've been around since not long after the site went online, and while there has always been conflict, it wasn't this bad.

I think things really changed early in 2004, during the primary wars, and it's gone downhill from there. Maybe the ugliness around the primaries set a new tone, or maybe it's just a matter of the place being so much bigger now, but the civility, and the level of the discussions, really has suffered.

[sendero]

28. I think...

.. DUers are fed up with ineffective representation, blatant unchecked cheating by the executive, and tired of losing every single battle.

So they take it out on each other. It is a dynamic that plays out in families, companies, churches, any organization of people - in fact it is playing out in the Republican party as we speak.

[QC]

32. I think you're probably right. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Yes lots of sanctimonious people here

[TahitiNut]

8. "pieces are inherently strangely familiar"

You've noticed, huh? Yes, it's somewhat remarkable that a fresh viewpoint might get somewhat awkwardly articulated on DU and then find itself presented wearing the shiny suit of a more skilled linguistic tailor with a shingle. Questions of "intellectual property" often seem fuzzy, at best.

We all stand on the shoulders of others, I guess. It'd be nice if we weren't wearing hob-nailed boots.

[crispini]

9. K&R

[Beausoir]

10. Man. I have got to agree with you. I want my donation back.

I've been here since 2002.

This place is going crazy with hatred.

I've always looked to DU to provide me with the latest news and interesting discussion.

Lately, it's become a cesspool.

I have been very charitable to the moderators because I know how hard the job is. Lately, they seem to have taken a vacation. I guess anything goes from here on out.

Pity.

I will spend much less time here. And money.

[QC]

11. I took a few weeks away from DU,

the longest I have been away since I first came here in 2001, and returned to find it even nastier than before. You're right--the place is a cesspool lately, downright psychotic at times.

Do you know of another progressive forum with a few less netkooks? It's definitely time to move on, if this weekend is any indication.

[diamondsndust]

12. well said, thanks for a voice of reason.. n/t

[kma3346]

13. Excellent post

:applause: :applause: :applause:

I've felt exactly the same way. The tone of the discourse has changed so much it hardly seems like the same place. Lately, I feel like an observer of this board instead of a member. I hope that changes because this is too great of a place to sink into sea of antagonism, sarcasm, and negativity.

[emcguffie]

16. Well done. NT

[Jed Dilligan]

17. How about this

If you've got a thin skin and don't like to fight, stay off the political web.

[Gormy Cuss]

21. I'll assume that you know that fighting and discussing aren't

synonymous. This is a discussion forum, not a boxing ring. Good debate can bring to the table diametrically opposed views without fighting or name-calling. Granted, the thin skinned person may not be well suited for even civil debate but there's considerable incivility posted by people whose best debating technique is 'STFU.' IMO, that's just a waste of space.

[Jed Dilligan]

22. Seems like an operating cost--the wasted space.

I'm happy to see people fight because it shows they are passionate in what they believe.

[Gormy Cuss]

23. It's tiresome when that passion blinds them to a different POV.

That's usually when the fighting begins, as opposed to discussion.

But hey, we're not fighting so we're not degrading the level of discourse.

[NoSheep]

18. I rarely post anymore. I used to feel a lot of support from

this website. We were all in it together. And I used to learn a lot. Now, I sift through too much crap. I have been through really tough financial times since 9/11 and the fall of the .coms. I lost my job when the business I worked for went bankrupt. Then I lost my modest 910 sq ft house. I am still not fully recovered from my losses. I went from zero unsecured debt to about $12,000 just to keep a roof over my head. I'm in it alone and it's been hard. Some people who knew me on DU knew this and someone would give me a star or at least offer encouragement. Then one day, some asshole said he doesn't respond to posts from people who don't donate. I couldn't believe it. Whenever I feel like I want to donate now, out of the little extra money I might have because groceries were less expensive last week, etc., I run into what looks like a circle jerk and that's not what I'm here for. I don't want to keep this place going for that kind of thing.

I love so much of DU, but I also see a lot of whining babies. Too much self centeredness and not enough reaching out in a positive way.

I've left for stretches at a time and I basically come back for news....not to discuss anything. It's really sad and yes, pathetic.
:shrug:

[faithnotgreed]

24. im very sorry for your hurt nosheep

youve been through a great deal and certainly dont need more of the same when you want to be amongst friends
no matter how great any website can be its always healthy to take a well-deserved break

take good care friend
you are cared about even when we cant always get the message through the clutter

[Beausoir]

27. We are still here...but our voices get drowned out by all the hate.

I really believe that.

I am sorry I bashed the moderators upthread. I was frustrated at a particularly hateful post and overnight, the thread was locked and the hatemonger's posts were deleted.

They have a very tough job.

[Coexist]

19. Very well put.

[dogday]

20. I came here for support last

year. I have posted often in my past year and have enjoyed it.. I see a difference here. It used to be about discussion, but lately it has been about disruption.

[titoresque]

26. This is what I do....

I get in these crappy ass moods. And I could fill a page here with listing the same stuff you all go through as well, so I won't. But I find myself being extremely clever and rude. It never makes me feel better in the long run. And often times I feel so fucking bad about it I can't even bring myself to apologize to the person whom I've berated. Anyhow, what I've been making a point to do when I feel myself getting self righteous is to search through the posts and find places where I can just say hello, or goodmorning. Or "thanks for posting this" just trying to find places to be nice. To be humane. It makes me feel better which tends to help me treat people better.

It's small but it's a start.

[NoSheep]

33. good for you. at least you are honest with yourself. and trying to shake

off the negativity that seems to come with our frustration.

[redwitch]

29. good post

I want to be among friends here. I don't think my skin is particularly thin, but I don't come here looking for a fight. Makes me sad to see people treating each other with sarcasm and general meanness.

[SeattleGirl]

30. Excellent post. You expressed many of the thoughts and feelings

I have about things I read here. Many of us comment/laugh/look down upon the freepers because of how they march in lock-step, and yet so often, I see people on DU demanding we do the same, by their responses to people who have different thoughts, ideas, opinions, and POV's than they do. I've been hit by drive-by snarks and insults, and when I ask the person to please explain why they said what they said, they either give me another snark or insult, or they don't respond at all.

And you are exactly right when you said, "We are a party of the people; not a party of the sovereign individual." I wish more people would realize that, and stop putting others down who think or feel differently than they do.

[donco6]

31. It used to be that people would admit they were wrong.

I've certainly done it my share of times. But these days it seems people just don't know when to quit. They keep hammering and hammering the same dead issue, even in the face of indisputable evidence to the contrary. The ad hominem flies, straw men are propped back up, red herrings are reeled in and out . . .

That's just not real dialogue IMO.

[NoSheep]

34. I came back tonight to see what was happening. Thanks to my

benefactor, perhaps at least I won't be ignored for a lack of "bling-bling" by my name ;) I suppose we could try to allow some balance to seep in to these conversations. we could just be determined to take that road. Some may recognize the wisdom of it and come along.

I was heartened by a post above from someone who recognized their tendency to lash out and is trying to consider the affects of that.

I also would like to mention...in our private lives, away from DU and away from our face to face social interactions, my closest political ally and I often engage in self congratulatory rants regarding how smart we are and how enlightened we are and then how ultimately frustrated we are with the state of our country and its people.

What happens is...the bulk of our interaction is negative. Not toward each other, but the content of our discussions is glaringly pissy, for lack of a better word.

We listen to the "news" and we immediately start yelling at the radio or the television. our senses of humor are all that save us, but our souls hurt from the constant vigil we keep on the horror of it all.

I'm suggesting we may need a conscious break from this stuff every now and then. If we become incapacitated by the pain of it all, we may not be able to affect change.

WE KNOW BETTER is what I'm saying. We can know what goes on, without even listening to the radio or reading the paper...and we can take our energy and channel it for change...but only if we have the state of mind to be strong.

Political junky-ism can be debilitating and THEN what are you gonna do?