Basic Math Lesson: D>R

[smartvoter]

Primaries can be ugly, and I can understand the desire by many to oust some DINOs. But talk about never voting for those DINOs if they win the primaries is utterly foolish. Don’t like Lieberman if he wins the primary? Vote for him anyway. He might be seat 51, and reaching seat 51 is much greater than any individual senator.

This is simple math. DINOs in name only still tip the entire power structure toward the side that has the good representatives in it. Committee control, subpoena power, control over legislation and the whole ball of wax comes with a D majority, even if we have to tolerate undesirables to get that majority. The "D" matters, even if it's followed by "INO."

D>R. If we don’t get this into our heads, the opportunity to end the madness will be lost.

Once again: D>R. Accept it. Live it.

[grasswire]

1. excellent

Thanks.

[Avalux]

2. I like it - great bumpersticker idea.

D>R :thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

3. Even, though I HATE to say it, in Lieberman's case.

It's still true even there though.



Nedreneline! Nedreneline! Nedreneline!

[central scrutinizer]

4. then it follows that D - R is positive

[Warpy]

5. An antichoice DINO is the same as an antichoice GOPer

as far as I'm concerned. As long as this very basic right for half the population is cavalierly dismissed, the inital at the end of the name is completley irrelevant.

That's where the line is, guys. Cross it and you're losing my votes and a lot of others just like it.

It's amazing how a party that has struggled to win elections by igoring its working class base now thinks it can ignore its women.

[rpgamerd00d]

7. Lieberman is pro-Choice.

[BlooInBloo]

8. He voted for cloture on Alito, didn't he?

Keep in mind there's NOMINAL pro-choice, and there's REAL pro-choice.

[smartvoter]

9. Understood, but 100% of nothing is nothing. nt

[jmowreader]

11. I don't think that's important right now

What is important is getting more Democrats than Republicans in the Senate.

An antichoice DINO will still cause Bush to moderate his judicial nominations. If, (insert deity here) forbid, we lose a consistently liberal Supreme Court justice with a Republican majority, Bush is gonna nominate someone like Randall Terry's attorney...and he'll be seated. A Democratic majority, no matter how many antichoice DINOs are in it, will throw out the Alitos and Robertses--those guys would have been nightmares even if they owned their own abortion clinics.

[Warpy]

13. It's important if you're a woman

Abandon choice and we'll abandon YOU.

[smartvoter]

14. What if the D and the R are anti-choice? You vote for neither, even

though the anti-choice D is kept in check by the larger pro-choice D majority, if they get it, when the anti-choice R has no containment if Rs remain in power?

[Usrename]

22. I see the crisis we face differently.

If you fear the anti-abortionists more than the fascists that support the first despot in our history, then let me try to persuade you why that fear is misplaced. The anti-abortionists are a small subset of our population. They are perfectly harmless without their despotic leaders. Lieberman has done everything within his power to prop up these same criminals. He is on their side.

No matter how his voting record appears, look at his actions in covering up and white-washing their crimes. He has been on your side in many bi-partisan investigations of this White House, ranging from torture to Katrina. He thinks that you will be fooled by his claims of bi-partisanship. Do you really believe that there is anything that is bi-partisan about this Congress or this Senate? It is a very simple equation.

[tavalon]

35. He is not on our side

That said he could be the 51st "D" in the Senate and even though he will sell us out on every issue, that matters.

[Pacifist Patriot]

23. I'm a woman and I have to agree with those looking at the bigger...

picture. As much as an anti-choice Democrat directly representing me would turn my stomach, I find it much more important to get a Democratic majority into BOTH houses of Congress. The odds are a Democratic majority would be better able to curtail any actions of a handful of anti-choice members. At the national level I cannot think of anything more important than taking back the legislature. Nothing will ever be fully investigated otherwise.

Thankfully I'm not in CT where it's not a matter of voting against an anti-choice Democrat, but a pro-Bush one. They'd better kick butt in both the Primary AND the General Election with Leiberman's Democratic opponent.

[smartvoter]

24. Amen to that last part. (All was good, though)... nt

[jmowreader]

25. You can't abandon choice by not voting

or for voting for a non-Democrat.

Listen close, my friends, for this is important--more so than anything.

If you do not vote specifically for a Democrat in any race where one is running, you are handing George Bush license to do anything he damn well wants, from eliminating the right to choose, to attacking every country that has oil but isn't run by one of Bush's consiglieres, to declaring himself President for Life.

Voting for a third-party candidate is just like voting for a Republican. Face facts: except for two independents, the only people who can be elected to office in the United States as we stand now are the candidate from the Democratic Party and the candidate from the Republican Party. If you do not vote for the Democrat, you are therefore by default voting for the Republican.

In the 1998 election cycle, when we had a good president, we could choose who to vote for based on their stands on issues important to us. In the 2006 election cycle, we have a pResident who is attempting to turn the US into a theocracy. Only Democrats can stop him.

Once we get rid of Bush, we can go back to weeding out the undesirables from our party. Right now, the only thing we need to look at is electability.

This fucking sucks, reducing ourselves to pain-avoidance mode. But that's where we are now.

[tavalon]

34. We are not abandoning choice

Woman to woman.

We are fighting to save this country and as soon as we have it back in the hands of the semi-sane Dems, we will take back what has been stolen. Well, we will take it back arduously but it will be taken back.

Vote against any Democrat and you vote against choice in the long view.

Please take a long view. It is the only thing that will save us.

[BlooInBloo]

12. So I guess there's no difference between chairing committees and NOT?

Fair enuff - if that's how you see things, that's how you see things.

[tavalon]

36. Hey look!

Here's something we agree on! That's why I hardly ever put anyone on ignore.

[tavalon]

33. I'm a woman

Please don't be a one issue voter, please.

Yes, that is incredibly important.

So is the creeping fascism.

So is the GOP stealing of votes.

So is the shredding of the constitution by the Shrub and his neocon ilk.

So are 42 million people, men, woman and children, without health care.

So are the children being left in the dust by the "No Child Left Behind" fuckers.

Did I mention the fascism?



Please, please, please, do not be a one issue voter.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. Absolutely. It Is Of My Opinion That Only The Narrow Minded Say That It

isn't worth voting for a DINO. I feel that way because they are only seeing a very small section of the bigger picture, and stand on this false integrity platform saying that they refuse to vote for someone who does this or doesn't do that etc...

But we know there is a much bigger picture, such as winning back congress. It's kinda like having a disease that there isn't a cure for yet. But there's medication that keeps the disease at bay and extends life expectancy. There might also be a few side effects, but the benefits of taking the medication far outweigh the slight nausea that might occur. So one could be stubborn and narrow minded and say "fuck that, I refuse to take a pill that just stifles the disease, and I refuse to take something that might make me a little nauseous, regardless of it saving my life and having 100 other benefits. I want all or nothing. Either give me an all out cure, or give me nothing."

Now that person could claim they are standing on integrity by refusing to take the pill, but I'd disagree. I'd say they were just being pig headed and simply stupid.

My advice for them would be "Hope for the cure, but in the meantime, take the fucking pill dumbass" LOL

[smartvoter]

10. Great analogy.

And Mindcrime is a great album, BTW...

[Usrename]

20. False integrity?

If Gore/Lieberman had been sworn in back in 2000, and if some misfortune had happened to Gore (like being in the towers on 9/11), what do you think would be different today? If Lieberman were President, what do you think would change?

He supports the destrution of this country with all his might. HE LOVES THIS SHIT!!!! He is one of them.

I wish you people could get it.

[smartvoter]

21. It's not a matter of "getting it."

It's that we need the "D" to tip the power balance so that people like Lieberman are kept in check. If you vote R, instead, there is no chance at all (assuming your vote is on winning side) of containment. Voting for Lieberman provides an opportunity to contain all of them, INCLUDING him. Right now, he is not contained at all.

The point is to look beyond the individual race and to the seat totals. Try to take Lieberman out in the primaries, if at all possible, but if unsuccessful, voting for him is the best way to contain that which he stands for... Otherwise, there is no chance for the containment on any of this. It sucks but it is reality.

edit: typo

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. We Do Get It. And Like I Said, That Example Is Narrow Minded.

Way I see it, control of congress is far more powerful than the presidency itself in my opinion. You ask what would be different with Joe Shmoe as President. Well I submit to you that is the wrong question. The real question is what could be different if the lock-stepping republicans that refuse to issue oversight and investigations had not been in charge this whole time, and the majority in congress were democrats, with control of hearings, investigations, etc...

That by far is the right question, and the relevant one. Failing to see the reality and monumental gravity of that fact is why I consider the former question to be extremely narrow minded.

And you can be very certain Mr. Or Mrs. UsreName, I Do Get It. And I don't appreciate being called 'You People'. That is all now.

[Usrename]

30. My mind is open to any solutions for the crisis we are in.

I think that some show of strength and unity is the only thing that can save the Democratic Party. If we cannot agree to rid ourselves of this traitor Lieberman, then there is no legitimate resistance that we can offer, working through the Party.

Things will get worse, not better, if this guy is allowed to continue. He is wearing our uniform, while all the time scoring goals for the other side. He is far worse than a Republican. He is the reason the Democrats are viewed as weak and without a message.

But hey, perhaps that is a narrow-minded view of what is wrong with the Party.

[tavalon]

38. 2012

If he runs again, he will be gone. By then, we will have saved the country or not, it will be clear by then. We are at a juncture right now, a slice in time so crucial as to be compared with the Civil War and the Third Reich.

There is plenty wrong with the party. It must be fixed. But not by Naderizing right now. Our country is dying, right now, and the "D" behind that scum suckers name is the only useful thing about him. If he wins the primary, to vote for the Rethug or Third party or not vote is to be very, very narrow minded indeed.

[Usrename]

43. If I were convinced this conflict is about parties, I would yield.

I am just not convinced that there are not allies in both parties. And enemies in both parties. How do we separate the wheat from the chaff. An R or a D behind the name is not nearly enough. We can only look at behavior to have some guidance. Have you seen who the DLC are inviting in? This is a very bad situation. We must expose these monsters for who they are and withdraw all support for them.

The hands that hold the levers of power now control both parties. I think that is the dilemma we face. It will only get much worse if we do not act now. We must resist at every turn. It is the only thing we can do now.

[tavalon]

37. We get it

and when it's safe to jettison him, he will be removed, post haste. We need a majority even if one of them is fake. He knows he can only win with a "D" behind his name so he will stay and we will use him until he isn't needed anymore and then he will be removed, discarded like the trash he is.

Get it?

[Usrename]

40. Sure, keep our powder dry, I've heard it all before.

I just disagree. The time for resistance, total resistance, is NOW.

It may already be too late. These people are scary and dangerous. What is to be gained by letting them continue down this path?

I think we all know where we are headed, we must change course. Do you not see this?

[tavalon]

41. I do

And I guess this is just my way of asking God/dess for one last chance to try to take back our country in a way that won't require bloodshed. Or, I should say, any more bloodshed. I don't want another Civil War. I see it coming and I'm choosing one more time, just one more time, to keep trying this way. If it doesn't work in the midterms, then I will know it's over, I will grieve and then, well, the next thing won't be voting for third party candidates. That will all be over. I feel it deep in my gut that this is it, not 2008, the midterms. I play the who should run in 2008, but it isn't real to me.

I see us headed toward bloody revolution. I desperately don't want that. I want to believe just a while longer that it isn't coming, okay? I need to hold on just a little longer. No, Lie berman isn't ours, he's just a number but he may be a number that will save us from those awful visions in my head. Not by being a good Democrat, he never was, he never will be. He's just a number. A number we, I desperately need.

[Usrename]

42. The message must be clear and unambiguous.

One third of a nation believes that their leader is guided by God. They will follow him.

Another third believes he is a member of an unholy criminal cabal that feeds on corruption and greed. They will oppose him.

The remaining third have been terrified. They do not share the hard political views of either side. They are good and patriotic people. They have been taught that we who oppose the current leadership have no message. We are weak and disorganized flip-floppers that cannot communicate an alternative to the present leadership. They are scared. They see the unity and strength of the ruling neo-con cabal and are drawn to it. They are scared. We can, and must, win them to our cause.

The fight will be between our side and the right-wing fascists. Others, those in the middle who do not take part in the fight, will be watching. I believe they will support our cause if we show enough unity and strength to allow them to set aside their fear and listen to our message.

In the liberal community, standing apart, having your own independent views is seen as a having character and strength. I do not believe that all people share that view. Unity is seen as strength by many who do not follow these things so closley. We have to get on a unified message, and do whatever it takes to speak out and resist these people at every turn. As the electorate, and not the elected, we can still send our message out. The elected ones who are on our side will respond. They must, or the Party is doomed, and so are we. History shows that despots and tyranny are difficult to deal with.

The propagandists in the media are heartless. They will not come to our aid. If we must do damage to Lieberman to make our message clear and loud, then we must. I feel it is our last best chance.

Besides, he deserves it. No mercy.

[longship]

15. DINOS are generally from red states

Ask yourself this question?

Would a liberal ever get elected to the US Senate in Indiana?
How about Nebraska?
How about Florida?

Nearly all the DINO Senators are from states which would never send a perceived liberal to Congress. So Democrats have a clear choice. Either send the DINO back to Congress or send a Repug.

My choice in this case is simple. Vote for the DINO.

[LibDemAlways]

16. That truism doesn't hold in CA where our senators are

the wonderful Barbara Boxer and up for re-election DINO Dianne. There's a little-known liberal opposing her in the primary who I intend to vote for. She'll have no meaningful repuke opposition in the fall. I'll vote for the Green or abstain. No way am I supporting a pro-war Bush ass kisser whose going to be back in the senate next year with or without my vote.

[longship]

29. I live in CA also.

I will at least vote for Feinstein opponent in the primary.

[bleedingheart]

18. we have a boatload of DINO's here in Pennsylvania

[AX10]

17. Excellent!

D>R

[bonito]

19. Good point even D/R>R n/t

[slay]

26. What if the D is really an R in disguise

Like Lieberman - he is NO type of democrat that I want to be associated with. Just because someone runs as a Dem doesn't mean he is. I understand the point you are making and in theory I agree - but sometimes I have to stand up for what I believe in and honestly, I could never bring myself to vote for someone like Lieberman. Sorry. Maybe things will have to get worse before they get better if that's what it takes unfortunatly. I never would have thought it would have taken so long for people to realize just how bad BushCo really is, but it did. Maybe it's going to take awhile for people to realize some of the Dems are no good either. :( If we can elect good Dems in the primaries then we can avoid that problem. Then here's where Diebold, ES&S, etc come into the picture, but that's a whole other can of worms.

[smartvoter]

31. I agree on the primaries.

Every vote is one's own, of course, but the reality with someone like Lieberman is that with Republicans in control, he actively works against us. If Dems are in control and Republicans don't control the agenda, he's contained, so voting for him and then going home and taking a shower is better than voting against him. But I do understand you. I used to take the same position until this crew came to power and getting it out of their hands trumps all else (at least to me)...

[tavalon]

39. It's the "D" behind his name. Don't you see?

He is worthless to us except for that. Once we have D>R solidly in the Senate, he must, and will be removed. You should vote for his opponent in the primary because it will send an important message to Lie berman. He will know to watch for the horse head in 2012, metaphorically speaking.

[paparush]

27. I find it EXTREMELY difficult to stomach JoeMentum

But, I do like saying 'JoeMentum'!! :-)

[tavalon]

32. I know

But it is good to have the reminder. And it's important that Lieberman gets the message from the primary, win or lose, that we are unhappy with his performance and that he had best straighten up and fly right.

[smartvoter]

44. I agree to that, and trying to take him out in the primary if possible. nt