Drivers that stike cyclists should rot in jail for the rest of their lives

[question everything]

Tuesday, May 23, 2006

'He was always on a bike'

One of two bicyclists hit on Sunday in Mission Viejo dies, the other is in fair condition at Mission Hospital.

By ERIKA I. RITCHIE
The Orange County Register

MISSION VIEJO - David Pullen loved the rigors and challenges of mountain biking but always worried when he hit urban roadways.

"He was always aware of cars," said his wife, Pamela Pullen, 56, from her bed at Mission Hospital on Monday. "He'd point out people who were on their cell phones or doing other things while driving. It was always his greatest fear that someone would come over into the bike lane."

On Sunday, his greatest fear came true. A car veered into the bike lane in which the couple was cycling. David, with multiple broken bones and internal injuries, died at Mission Hospital that evening.

(snip)

David rode to work in Lake Forest. He most loved the exhilaration of riding trails and the technical challenge of mountain biking. He was known as an endurance rider, not a downhill speed demon. He loved the camaraderie of the mountain bikers and competed in masters events in the Big Bear and Mammoth Lakes areas. He didn't care if it was raining, muddy or snowing.

(snip)


http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/local/article_1152075.php

News background

• The Pullens were riding their road bikes at 1:21 p.m. Sunday when they were struck by a bronze 2005 Mercedes driven by Houssin Halal, 38, of Mission Viejo, authorities said. The Register was unable to reach Halal for comment.

• Witnesses told police the driver could have been reaching into his glove box at the time.

• The Sheriff's Department says the investigation will take about two months. No citations have been issued. Witnesses are asked to call [phone].

[stop the bleeding]

1. not that rotting in jail forever is suitable,

but what would be a good penalty for something like this?

[BiggJawn]

2. Stand them in the street with a sign around their neck...

...in the path of the next "Critical Mass" ride.
A sign that says "I killed a Cyclist with my Mercedes". Wouldn't be enough left to flush down the storm drain...

[seabeyond]

13. what torture that would be if i were in those shoes. and the rotten

fruit we could throw at the man. the names we could call to bring him further into shame. what kind of sick people are we becoming. i am fearing it is just not a handful anymore.

[Clovis Sangrail]

21. hard to say

Accidents happen but the impact, as in this case, can be enormous.
I think a lot more information is needed about the specifics before anybody is condemned to hell.

Years ago I left a commercial driving job; in part my decision to leave was based on a kid running out in front of my van.
I wasn't speeding and I was watching the road, but if my brakes hadn't been good and the kid fast I would have killed him.

That made me think long and hard about putting people in prison for accidents.

[Warpy]

22. Take the car away, permanently, and

force the perp onto a two wheeled vehicle, if it was egregious.

I've seen cyclists to blame in some collisions, cyclists who have clung to the wrong side of the road, and one notable bimbo who almost wrecked me out by trying to make a left turn from the extreme right edge of the roadway, where I couldn't see her signal. I've done mostly urban cycling, and you HAVE to get into that left turn lane if you want to make a turn. Car drivers can lump it, it's YOUR safety.

However, there is a type of macho scumbag that waits for cyclists to come along so they can open car doors in front of them, who throw things at cyclists, and who intentionally force cyclists off the road. Those are the ones who need to rot in prison. They're psychopaths.

Most of the time, though, they're accidents caused by a second's inattention, a dropped item, an unexpected noise, a rambunctious kid. I can't see punishing these folks with prison. The knowledge that they've badly hurt another human being through carelessness is enough (well, that plus paying the medical expenses). The worst cases can have the right to drive eliminated.

[stop the bleeding]

34. To those of you that responded to my question

thank you - the answers were/are interesting.

Just for the record I am cyclist/amature racer, put in about 300 miles per week, so needless to say I have a lot of opinions about this subject, but I will keep them in my head.

Thanks again.

[question everything]

41. Please don't. As an avid cylist your thoughts will be most welcomed (nt)

[stop the bleeding]

52. well like several on this thread have said, it depends on what the

facts are in this case as it does with every situation in lfe, not just with bikes and cars.

I find that when cyclists get hit it is because of 1 of a few reasons.

1) the cyclists is at fault, ie in the wrong place on the road - where they shouldn't be - sometimes accidental sometimes on purpose

2) the motorists is at fault, ie in the wrong place on the road - where they shouldn't be - sometimes accidental sometimes on purpose

3) maybe I am just salty a little bit from living in Florida, where the per capita of Puckup Trucks with gun racks along with the stars and bars seems to be concentrated out on country roads - where most of us like to ride.

I find these people(and I use that term in it's broadest since) seem to have some kind of malfunction when it comes to having common sense. They, time and time again without fail will try to "brush" you, throw garbage on you, spit on you and the best start a fight. To this day I still can not figure out how it got like this unless #'s 1 or 2 had something to do with it. I usually will let these people go, but I have also stooped down and "gotten even" on a few occasions.

All in all cyclists have to look at for themselves no matter how good or bad the driver's are, or what they're real motives are in "accidents" - hell it seems that no one else is.

Thanks for the article

Peace!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

3. hell yeah...let's lock up everyone who has an accident

if the motorist fled the scene...then that is another issue...if the motorist struck them on purpose, yet another issue. But if the driver made a mistake it is certainly no more worthy of rotting in jail than someone who has an accident that kills someone else in a car.

But, hell yeah...lock up everyone...cause god know, YOU have never made a mistake and never will...

sP

[jesus_of_suburbia]

8. Bravo, ProdigalJunkMail

You said what I feel. I was so shocked when I read the headline.

[liberalhistorian]

72. Thank you, that's exactly

what I was trying to say, below. Undoubtedly, there are macho idiots who deliberately attempt to interfere with or cause harm to cyclists (I've seen that shit as well), and THOSE are the ones who need to be locked up with the key thrown away if they kill or severely injure someone. But not in a lot of other cases where it's often just a tragic accident, or the cyclist ran in front of the car or disobeyed other safety practices.

[lindisfarne]

91. How would you classify someone who is rummaging in a glove

compartment while driving and kills someone as a result? This is the situation in the OP.

[Last Stand]

111. not much different than if a cyclist caused a driver to get into a head-on

collision by swerving to far out into the road. I don't think I'd have the cyclist rotting in jail, but some might think that way.

Cars and cyclists are a bad combonation on today's busy roads.

[pitohui]

89. thanks prodigal

what the hell is matter w. people?

a v. dear friend of mine hurt and seriously injured someone on a bike, it was a freakin' accident

don't destroy an innocent person's life over an accident, two wrongs don't make a right, christ

[SammyWinstonJack]

116. !

:applause:

[SeattleGirl]

136. I'm with you, Prodigal

There are a lot of bikers around here, and I am absolutely fine with sharing the road with them, and I enjoy biking myself (though I usually do most of mine on bike/walking trails). Most of the cyclists I am around while I'm driving are also good at sharing the road, but there are some I've been around who scare the crap out of me. They seem to think that because they are on a bike, they can do whateve the hell they want, like not paying attention to cars, not obeying traffic laws (which they have to do, at least here), not stopping at stop signs and lights, etc. I've come close to nailing a couple of people on bikes, NOT because of MY carelessness, but because of the cyclists! The last thing I want to do is hit someone on a bike with my car, and even if it was their fault, I would still be sickened by it. Both drivers AND cyclists need to watch out for each other.

[question everything]

138. Except that drivers and cyclists are not equal on the road

when a mass of steel hits a cyclist, you know who will lose.

Drivers need to pay close attention to their surroundings. What if instead a careless cyclist you have a child who does not know any better?

If driver schools and the police will start demanding that we drive defensively, that we knowingly concentrate on our driving, instead of arranging our days, and stop dismiss accidents as "accidents" perhaps more will pay more attention.

[SeattleGirl]

139. Sometimes and accident IS an accident, qe

I am not disagreeing with you as far as who the big loser will be if a car hits a cyclist. My point was that cyclists ALSO have to be aware of their surroundings, obey traffic laws, etc., so that they do not increase the chance that something will happen to them. If a cyclist shoots through an intersection when they are the one with the red light, and I or anyone else hits them, the fault in a legal sense lies with the cyclist. And that has nearly happened to me, though thank The Maker I was able to stop before I hit the person (and I did have the green light).

Again, all I'm saying is that both drivers and cyclists need to be aware, and need to do their best to keep themselves and others safe.

Peace.

[lindisfarne]

145. It's too bad we don't have as an extensive a system of dedicated

bike roads as we do dedicated car roads (i.e., freeways). That would even things up. Until then, drivers really do need to be careful. They're getting the lion's share of the public subsidies, both oil subsidies and road subsidies (no, your gas taxes do not cover even 50% of the cost of building roads). Additionally, drivers are creating pollutants which have been shown to lead to higher rates of asthma as the degree of pollution increases.

There was a study of NY City bike accidents. The police had initially determined that bikers were responsible in 75% of the cases. But when the cases were re-examined, the majority of the blame for the accidents was assigned to the drivers. Bias on the part of the police led to erroneously assigning blame.

I'm just astounded at the response I've seen in this thread toward bikers. Just because some small fraction of bikers act like idiots (generally, young males and careless kids) doesn't justify aggression towards bikers.

All the people who have expressed frustration with bikers ought to get out and bike for a month solid, and see what bikers put up with. Bike commuters put up with life-threatening deliberate actions from drivers - and bike commuters are not the ones who generally are biking dangerously.

I'm quite certain that a great portion of drivers violate laws and create a greater potential for killing others than do bikers. There are idiotic drivers as well - does that mean I'm justified in driving aggressively?

[SeattleGirl]

152. My daughter rides her bike to work 2-3 times a week,

which involves crossing the Highway 520 floating bridge (essentially, a highway, with a specific portion for bikers/walkers). And I have SEEN drivers be deliberately aggressive toward bikers and pedestrians, and believe me, I want to kick the shit out of them. I do not get angry at people riding their bikes on city streets; the only time I do get angry is if they act like they are riding in some invisible protective bubble. And my anger comes from my fear that because of some bikers' negligence, a driver may hurt or kill them.

However, just an FYI - I LOVE to ride my bike. And in 1972, I was part of a bunch of high school teams that built one of the very first bike trails in the country. It was in Eugene, Oregon. Most of it was off-road, but some was on the streets, with very clearly marked bike lanes that accommodated bikers, parked autos, and cars being driven down the street. To this day, it is still something I am extremely proud of being part of, as that trail helped spark other cities across the country to do the same. We still need more, of course, AND bikers and drivers still need to obey the laws, and watch out for each other, but as I said, I'm proud that I was part of the start of something so cool. My mom still has the front page picture of me in the local newspaper of me and another girl clearing brush for the trail along the Willamette River.

I was trying to Google the pic, but came up empty. Dang!

[lindisfarne]

165. I used to ride across I-90 on the dedicated bike/pedestrian part of

the bridge (why don't we have such dedicated bike paths along all freeways? Wouldn't it be great to have one along I-5 - how much easier would bike commutes into downtown Seattle be?). From there I rode the bike route across Mercer Island and through the swampy area out to the Factoria area. I loved that ride. (I also used to bike the perimeter of Bainbridge Island and out on the Olympic peninsula).

I also road along Lake Washington parkway to get to the bridge. I don't recall ever experiencing (on Lake Washington parkway) the aggression I now experience regularly in Southern California, despite the fact that Lake Washington parkway is a fairly narrow, one-way in each direction road, and bikes and cars absolutely must share the same lane.

Seattle drivers are far more aware of bikes and pedestrians - they expect and watch for them and generally are very friendly toward them. I rarely experienced the kind of idiocy which you see almost everytime you go out riding in Southern California. That's not to say it didn't happen (all those California immigrants to Seattle I'm sure retained some of their old habits) but it was more rare, and the fact that Seattle tended to enforce the speed limit and other traffic laws really helped keep it in check.

[MindPilot]

4. That's a rather extreme punishment

Did the driver deliberately hit the riders?

[question everything]

9. They think that he "reached into his glove box"

We used to ride in that area. There are nice, wide bike lanes but there are always soccer moms, or other busy drivers who don't even see the cyclists. And this was a Sunday afternoon, not even a rush hour or something.

There are always drivers who think that they want to make a turn and are completely oblivious to the presence of cyclists. Especially if they try to cross at a cross walk. I often wonder what would happen if these are pedestrians.

I think that a harsh penalty will send a signal.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

19. hell yeah...

there was this mother one time...she misread the label on some medication and overmedicated her child...and the child died. That mother SHOULD SPEND THE REST OF HER LIFE ROTTING IN JAIL. There was this other time...a person was trying to prevent being stung by a bee whilst driving, ran off the road in his panic and struck a tree killing a chipmunk. That bastard SHOULD ROT IN JAIL FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. My daughter, spilled her milk out of negligence the other day, and to send a signal to my 10 month old, I beat the milk spiller senseless. That should work... :sarcasm:

Let's be sure to punish anyone for making a mistake... oh yeah...more :sarcasm:

sP

[regularguy]

33. Dude, you're on a roll!

:thumbsup:
And I say this as someone who is more or less a radical anti-car bike rider.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

40. I ride a lot...and I have to deal with the jerks too

as does my wife who rides with me. However, this sort of mindset ticks me off. And it doesn't help that I haven't had a cup of coffee in nearly 10 minutes... ;-)

sP

[liberalhistorian]

73. LOL!

Well-put yet again!

[lindisfarne]

93. Rummaging in a glove compartment while driving is negligent driving,

NOT a mistake.

(And although it may not apply to the OP, SPEEDING is reckless driving. It increases your stopping distance and if you will hit someone, the higher the speed, the greater the likelihood you will seriously injure or kill them. Think of this the next time you are breaking the speed limit. "The kid came out of nowhere" won't console most of you if you kill a kid - and if you're breaking the speed limit, even by 5 mph, you increase the likelihood of killing the kid.)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

94. nope...negligence IS a mistake if you are otherwise proficient

a brief lapse in judgement at best. This person most likely had just that...a lapse in judgement that caused them to attend to something other than driving and that is what likely caused the swerve. It is not really in any way different than my when 4 year old, who can otherwise handle a cup quite well, gets into something other than paying attention to her milk and spills it. I am not saying that it is a good thing that this happened, by any means, and I am not saying the person should not be punished (quite possibly along the lines of vehicular manslaughter) but to say they should rot in jail for the rest of their life is over the top and I am simply making a point by taking that to an unlikely, but ultimate conclusion.

sP

[lindisfarne]

97. Negligence, as used by the law, has a specific meaning.

For example, in CA:
Vehicular manslaughter may be charged when a driver causes an accident (either by violating a traffic law or by exercising negligence or “gross negligence”) and the accident causes the death of another person. ...
Gross negligence is defined as driving without caution and without concern for the safety of others. It means a high level of recklessness. But a charge of “vehicular manslaughter with gross negligence” may not be based merely upon driving under the influence of alcohol. Other facts must be present, for example speeding, racing, running traffic lights, and/or ignoring the advice of others not to drive.
http://www.southern-california-dui-defense.com/vehicular_manslaughter.html

[ProdigalJunkMail]

100. that is true

but negligence is not yet charged. We don't know the specifics of the charge and even if someone is charged under that law they should not ROT under the jail.

sP

[question everything]

135. We really don't need to know the specifics

we forget that driving is not a right, it is a privilege. The more crowded the roads are, the more defensive we have to drive. From a lapse in attention while changing channels on a radio, to reaching into a glove box, to chatting on the phone, to shaving and putting makeup, to reading, to trying to control the kids, to chat with other passengers, to just thinking of something else - all take out attention from concentrating on driving. Yes, I am guilty of some of these too.

Our frantic 24/7 multitasking lives also exist in our cars.

Yes, many cyclists are rude and do not obey the rules of the road, weaving, etc. But when it comes to a collision, with thousands of pounds of steel against flesh and blood, the steel will always win (with some exception if the flesh and blood are that of a moose).

What if a child runs into the street? The driver has to be the one to be blamed because we have to watch for these distractions and to be ready to break. Yes, even steer the car to a pole or to another car to avoid hitting a person. Unfortunately the police too often does not issue a citation, determining that this was "an accident." Yes, I know that drivers will feel like hell for the rest of their lives; at least I hope so. But perhaps we do need to stop dismissing these "accidents" so that drivers will pay attention to the consequences of taking their eyes off the road.

The irony is that the same newspaper has a complaint from someone who decided to take his bike to work, but two buses passed with their racks already loaded with two bikes each, so he had to call his wife to take him back home and drove to work with his gas guzzling car.

If we really want to get more people to cycle to work, we need to make sure that they are safe, especially when there are dedicated bike lanes. Not all communities have them.

My spouse cycled to work today and when I reported how this issue touched a raw nerve here, the response was: and if this is on DU, just imagine how it would be on a freeper forum..

[seabeyond]

20. and there for the grace of god go i..... i have done stupid things

and because i know my abilities as a driver, and decades with accident free record i can say, i am a good driver. but there have been times when i thought, oooosh.... that was stupid. thank god nothing happened. now....

since i am honest and not holier than thou, compassionate and not self righteous, i can admit to mistakes, that didnt result in the worst of circumstances, but that could have

and i know every driver has said the same thing to themselves at some point.

knowing this, you might reflect a bit when you post one like yours

[Connie_Corleone]

24. I'm a pretty good driver too. But I still make mistakes while driving.

There's always that time when you look somewhere else, something falls on the floor and you try to pick it up real quick, some insect is flying around in your car and you try to get it away from you without driving off the road.

I would hate to accidentally hit and kill someone and have someone think I should be locked up for the rest of my life because of a tragic accident. The knowledge of killing someone would be punishment enough for me.

[liberalhistorian]

77. I know, if I accidentally killed someone,

even if it wasn't my fault, I'd want to literally die. I don't think I could take it.

[bettyellen]

162. accident free? not counting the biker you hit by not looking in front you?

i can't believe you're looking for pity and blaming the biker in your post downthread while saying you're "accident free" here.
you didn;t look in front?? isn't that the part of the car that hits people???
how do you look "in four directions" if one of them isn't front? that's total nonsense.
you screwed up.

[seabeyond]

163. it was two decades

ago. i had forgotten. and no it was not my fault. she was on the wrong side. in the street, heading right to me. next time you are merging into traffic be aware and see if you look forward before going,......nothing is suppose to be coming torwards you, all the traffic is behind. where are your eyes. cops ruled. blamed on her. your whole post is total nonsense and i am not looking for anything. but let me ask, why so nasty. why are so many people being so nasty with every post whether they know what they are talking about or not. why thread after thread are being being the nastiest we can be. waz up......

better say now. when i was 15 learning how to drive with my mom, i put it in drive instead of reverse. i went forward a couple yards and hit a cement post. did no damage to anything, but what the hell,..... accident.

[-..__...]

5. I could understand the punishment if it was intentional.

But, the incident was due to the drivers negligence.

[ComerPerro]

6. I can't tell you how many times I've almost hit someone on a bicycle

because they are always darting in traffic and weaving around.

If I can't avoid them, should I rot in jail for the rest of my life?

Although this case was the driver's fault, its not ALWAYS the car's fault.

Reminds me of assholes on motorcycles reminding us to "share the road", as they dart between cars in backed up traffic at 90mph....

[question everything]

32. Agree. But they were in a bike lane.

They were not darting in traffic and weaving around.

As I said. We used to ride in that region. We would always slow when we approached an intersection knowing that someone will cut into the bike lane to make a right turn on red.

We would always stop at a crosswalk and cross at the crosswalk as if we were pedestrians. And there will always be someone at the crosswalk wanting to make a right turn on red, watching only for a vehicle traffic.

Even now, my spouse continues to ride and there are always SUVs who make a left turn ignoring the bicycle.

Yes, cyclists need to obey the rules of the roads like everyone else. But when they stay on the bike lane, when they wait for the light to cross at a crosswalk, they should be given the right of way from those steel behemoths.

[LostinVA]

69. This area has HUGE bike lanes

Close to as wide as the car lane. There is NO excuse for this. So yeah, he deserves to "rot in jail" for at least 15 years. I am so tired of drivers in this country screwing around while they drive -- talking on phones, etc. Fiddling with his glove box??? PULL OVER. Geez -- I have several people a day almost hit my car because of stupid stuff like this. Totally inexcusable. Just because it wasn't malicious doesn't excuse it one bit.

And, I have found that most people who are REAL cyclists, especially those who commute daily, have better driving manners than many people in cars. They are also VERY aware of what's going on.

Alot of blame directed towards the man who was killed....

[liberalhistorian]

84. And I'm so tired of always hearing

about how perfect bike riders always are and how horrible car drivers are. When I still lived in Cleveland, there was a group of bike riders who insisted that they had even more right to roads than car drivers, who were all "lazy, smoking, overweight, idiots" who should all be "cycling to work instead of driving." Like most people could bicycle 40-50 miles to work in professional dress. Get fucking real.

[Connie_Corleone]

7. I'm sure the driver couldn't wait for some cyclists to come along...

so he could mow them down and kill 'em.

:sarcasm:

[lindisfarne]

29. In Southern Cal, with some drivers, I wouldn't be surprised - drivers

drive faster than the speed limit, drive negligently and recklessly, and fail to look for either pedestrians or bikers ALL the time down here. Simply hitting someone while exceeding the speed limit should mean a greater penalty.

"something falls on the floor and you try to pick it up real quick" Are you kidding? Have you considered leaving it on the floor until you can safely pull over? What if you hit a 7 year old because you were picking something up from the floor and didn't see him?

[liberalhistorian]

85. And I'm sure you've never, ever,

ever made a mistake or suffered a second of inattention while driving. Please, give me a fucking break.

[lindisfarne]

95. I can safely say I've never rummaged in a glove compartment

or reached down to pick something off the floor while driving. (In fact, I've never owned a car so have had far less opportunity to have a "second of inattention" or "make a mistake" (everyone has - but one's driving habits can increase or decrease the likelihood of these, as well as affect the outcome of an accident in such a situation (if you're speeding (a "mistake", your "inattention" is much more likely to kill someone.

Furthermore, I didn't talk about "mistakes" or "second of inattention" in the message you responded to; I replied to someone else's message about picking up (while driving) something that had fallen on the floor. And I don't regard "picking something up off the floor while driving" to be either a mistake or a lapse of attention. It's negligent driving.)

[liberalhistorian]

96. The very fact that you've never owned a car

and thus have far more limited driving experience shows that you have little comprehension of how easy it is to have a moment of bad judgment while driving. While negligence should be punished it shouldn't be to the extent you're demanding. People who suffer a moment of bad judgment while driving are not deliberately and intentionally planning to kill or cause harm to someone and suffer horribly with the knowledge of what they've done; they shouldn't rot in jail for life.

[lindisfarne]

98. I've had adequate driving experience. But the fact that I spend more

time on a bike makes me drive MUCH more carefully than most drivers in the US. If the penalties for negligent driving were higher, if traffic laws were enforced, and the attitude of society much more harsh when drivers violate laws and drive recklessly/negligently, drivers would improve their act.

[seabeyond]

10. well, i am sure the man will live a life of hell, knowing he took a life

from carelessness. to only get that day back, a do over, and never be able to. so in your compassion for one human, you deny compassion for another. that isnt so grand.

i am sorry for the one that lost his life. i am sorry for the one that lives, to remember every day, what he has done.

[LisaM]

11. I DO think bad drivers should face stricter penalties

I am really sick and tired of the decline in driving skills.

[question everything]

137. Agree. We should stop dismissing loss of life

as "accidents." We need to start really punishing those drivers if this is the only way to get each one of us to pay attention, to concentrate on our driving and not to chat on the phone constantly or be otherwise occupied on other matters.

[seabeyond]

169. you only come up with: rot in jail, or we dismiss loss of life

that is it for you. there is no inbetween there. if a person does something by accident, not on purpose, in error, you think knowing you will go to jail will stop accidents, not on purpose, in errors?????

so if i dont agree with you that this person should go to jail, that he will suffer for life knowing what he has done, then i have dismissed the person who died. that i am not able to feel the horror and sadness and feel the pain that all that love him will be going thru for the rest of their lives.

is that what you suggest?

[bowens43]

12. It appears to have been an accident.

rotting in jail for life is inappropriate.

[LostinVA]

71. It wasn't an "accident" if he was fiddling with his glove box

It was negligent driving. An accident would be a tiring blowing, or having a diabetic attack while driving, or having a bee is your car stinging you. THIS was something that didn't have to happen.

[seabeyond]

81. tire? he didnt upkeep, diabetes? shouldnt drive knowing condition

and possiblities, bee in car? should check for any stow away insects and keep windows shut.

[liberalhistorian]

88. That kind of negligence still doesn't

deserve rotting in jail for life. It was not deliberate, it was not intentional, it was a moment of bad judgment, moments we've ALL had while driving.

[Jersey Devil]

14. This story says nothing about how the accident happened

Sure, if it was intentional or grossly negligent like someone racing or going way in excess of the speed limit or drunk, but sometimes accidents happen due to ordinary negligence and sometimes when there is no negligence at all, like a defect in the car's steering or a blowout.

Why in the world would you put someone in jail if it was just an ordinary accident? The driver will have nightmares for the rest of his life without any punishment.

[lindisfarne]

101. Negligence - The driver failed to use due care when operating his car.

How can anyone justify "rummaging in a glove compartment" as acceptable while driving a car???????
It is NEVER ok. Pull over. Then rummage. One man would still be alive had this been done.

I'm amazed.

[recoveringrepublican]

15. You couldn't pay me enough to ride in the streets

I know when I actually get the chance to bike with my kids we are SUPPOSE to ride on the street. No fucking way. People here around Tampa are CrAzY!! I'm scared enough in my car! The bike lanes are sooo skinny (where they actually have them).

When we come upon pedestrians we either get up on the grass or if there isn't room, stop and let them pass.

[question everything]

36. We used to live in Bradenton, which did not have bike lanes

There were always be at least one pickup who would deliberately drive cyclists of the road.

[recoveringrepublican]

83. I live in Tarpon Springs...no bike lines for the most part

except when you get closer to the Pinellas trail. St. Pete has many, but there are also many more assholes clumped together. The little white line dividing me from a coffee drinking asshole with a cell phone glued to his/her ear, in a hurry to nowhere, doesn't give me a lot of faith in bike lanes.

[Gregorian]

16. You can only realize the violence of cars when you ride a bike.

It all becomes real when you are at their mercy. I commuted for years and cannot put it to words. Cars cutting you off. Cars throwing trash at you. A week ago I was coming back from a mountain bike ride. Of the 1/4 mile of asphault I ride in order to get home, some republican (no doubt) crossed over the yellow line, just to make it known who was the powerful one.
I take this argument one step further. When you ride a bike, you realize the power that every American has. The power of petroleum. Only when one rides a bike will they see this. Inside the vehicle versus outside. You must share similar space in order to see it. You must compete with them in order to see it. Something changes with people when they have that power. A simple refusal to move their wrist in order to make room for a cyclist when passing, results in a strong communication to the cyclist. It does not happen to all drivers. I would hazard to guess that it happens primarily with republican drivers. And I don't think it's too inaccurate. Pardon me for my wild conjecture. It makes me look ignorant and prejudiced. It's just that I've met some of these people. Why would anyone be angry at cyclists? I've met people who absolutely could not tolerate sharing the road with cyclists. I will never understand the violent car mentality. And the excuse of not seeing a cyclist is pure lie.

[lindisfarne]

23. You're completely right. A good portion of drivers go out of their way

to bully bikers.
Honking loudly and yelling as they pass is another favorite of some drivers.

Anyone who doesn't believe this should try relying on their bike for all their transportation for a month.

A friend of mine once made a comment while I was riding in her car about how a biker was too far from the curb (a few feet). I asked her when the last time she had driven was and was she aware of all the junk (sand, rocks, glass, other litter) that accumulated along the curb and how unsafe it was to ride in it? I also pointed out that (under law) bikers are indeed entitled to a lane, although most do pull over toward the right side of the right lane to allow cars to pass.

When I drive, I always slow down and try to give bikers plenty of room, out of respect for the fact that they're NOT polluting.

(And it takes SO much effort for a driver to brake slightly when passing a biker then shift their foot 5 inches to the right to accelerate.)

[seabeyond]

27. my kids are growing up in a world where they dont know how to ride

a bike at 8 and 11. we live on a busy street though it is a residential. and people come flying down a hill, both sides of our house, we are on the bottom. it is so dangerous from my perspective i have just not been comfortable allowing boys to ride. we dont have bike lanes in this town. and drivers are bad with bike riders and pedestrians. i dont like any of it.

i also recognize an accident for what it is.

[lindisfarne]

31. Get the neighborhood to petition the city for a lower speed limit and

to supply the police officers to enforce the speed limit (some neighborhoods rent those "Your speed is ..." signs which often slows people down).

[jeffrey_X]

53. I don't own a car, but I drive frequently in Chicago...

I've got no problem with bikers and I do everything I can to accomodate them.

I do however have a problem with bikers when they expect to share the roads with cars, but refuse to abide by the same driving laws. I've never seen a biker come to a full stop at a stop sign and I rarely see them stop at a red light (unless they are forced to because of traffic).

We are all supposed to be traveling under the same set of laws, correct?

[Susang]

172. Cyclists never stop at lights or stop signs in Chicago

I've lived here for 15 years and I think I've seen it happen twice in that entire time. In my neighborhood, many of them ride in the opposite direction of traffic on Western Avenue, a very dangerous way to travel. One man was killed about two months ago near Empty Bottle because of it.

I think no matter how you look at it, driving in the city is dangerous, for cyclists and motorists. I drove a 50cc scooter for 2 1/2 years, until I was rear-ended by a careless driver, who totalled it (and me); so I'm hardly an apologist for neglectful drivers. But I hardly think criminal charges and years of jail for something that was legitimately an accident will satisfy anything other than our thirst for vengeance. If the police determine that the driver was criminally neglectful in the course of their investigation, I'm sure they will file charges. Judging the driver based on a couple of sentences from an inflammatory newspaper article hardly seems just, not to me anyway.

But hey, I'm only going into my second back surgery from an accident caused by a neglectful driver who was chatting on her cell-phone while she knocked my scooter out from underneath me and didn't even have the decency to get out of the car to help me up, and I still didn't want to sue her insurance company to pay for my medical bills. What the hell do I know about anything, right? ;-)

[SteppingRazor]

17. Um... having once hit a bicyclist, I would disagree...

of course, in my case, I wasn't at fault. Maybe you could add a condition to that statement?

Something like "Drivers that strike cyclists should rot in jail for the rest of their lives ... assuming the driver is at fault"?

Cause, in my case, I think the memory of a guy flying over my hood, nailing my windshield, flying into the air and landing head first on the street, where he then bled and cried is punishment enough.

[murielm99]

26. I knew someone who hit a bicyclist, too.

It was on a country road, and they were both heading west with the sun in their eyes. The kid on the bike ended up with a broken leg.

The motorist felt terrible. He had nightmares about the accident, and what could have happened. He lost weight and sleep. He was under-insured, too, so a lot of money came out of his pocket for the kid's rehab. He was afraid he would lose everything. It taught me never to go without adequate insurance.

Sometimes these things are just accidents.

[question everything]

48. I am sorry about that. Yes, this will be a nightmare

and accidents do happen and many cyclists are rude and ride erratically with complete disregard to the rules of the road.

But I know that area. These are wide bike lanes. This was Sunday afternoon, how can a car plows into not one, but both cyclist?

[lindisfarne]

18. In Southern California, drivers are particularly negligent. I don't know

how many times I have had to slow down (if I hadn't, I would have been hit) while crossing on a green light because people are making an doubly illegal right turn on a red light (doubly illegal because it's posted "No turn on red" and they didn't stop first.

I used to bike all the time in Seattle. In Southern Cal, I feel like I'm in serious danger of getting killed every time I get on my bike.

[Freddie Stubbs]

25. If you ever saw how many bikers act in Miami, you might think otherwise

These fools ride in between lanes of traffic in the opposite direction. The way people drive thier cars isn't much better.

[theboss]

28. Cyclists scare the hell out of me.

I am convinced that I am going to drill one someday around DC. They come out of nowhere half the time.

[dysfunctional press]

30. cyclists that flaunt traffic laws should be rotting right there with them

stop signs are for bicycles too...and bicycles should always be ridden WITH the flow of traffic.
for starters.

if a bicyclist breaks a traffic law and gets run over and killed- i say they got what they had coming- and one less idiot fucking it up for everyone else.

[Connie_Corleone]

39. I hope you never break any traffic laws while driving and end up dead

from the accident. I guess you would deserve being dead like the cyclists, huh?

[dysfunctional press]

115. exactly.

don't do the crime, if you can't do the time.

[lindisfarne]

42. And if that bicyclist is a 7 year old? Would that make you feel better if

you hit them?

Drivers in Seattle look, much more actively, and see bikers and pedestrians, compared to in Southern California. Drivers here disobey traffic laws continuously (I've been honked at for stopping on stop signs; CA could solve its budgetary woes simply by enforcing traffic laws).

I don't know how many times I've seen drivers making a right turn, only looking to the right for cars, and failing to see a pedestrian crossing in front of them. (I won't begin to cross until I make eye contact with the driver). What if a kid on a bike happened to start crossing in front of the car? If the driver hits the pedestrian/biker, it's really hard to prove that they didn't "look both ways" before moving, yet if you observe drivers, you'll see 50% of them don't "look both ways". They speed up to red stop lights/stop signs and slam on the brakes: if someone happens to start crossing (on the green) at just the wrong time, they could easily get hit.

And if they would drive the speed limit, rather than 10-15 mph over it (in residential areas), their stopping distance would be much smaller and if they hit a kid, they'd be going much slower, even if someone did dart unexpectedly in front of them.

[Guaranteed]

62. Yup, I think I was 9 when I got hit on my bike. nt

[dysfunctional press]

114. if that bicyclist is 7 years old- i would expect the parents to be there..

to correct the child from making possibly fatal mistakes. i can't think of any responsible parent that would let a 7 year-old ride a bike unattended in traffic...in fact, doing so would probably be reason enough to contact dcfs.

[JVS]

144. Should seven year olds even be bicycling on streets?

Just because it doesn't have an engine doesn't mean that kids should use it for transportation

[lindisfarne]

146. Even with a parent nearby, a kid can fall, make an unexpected move.

Do you really want to continue our culture of DRIVING everywhere? Why shouldn't a 7 year old ride a bike to a park? I did when I was growing up - the difference was that people drove much more slowly - which meant a much shorter stopping distance - and much more attentively.

I also walked a mile to school, from age 6, even with snow on the road. Everyone did, and nothing happened.

Drivers are so careless these days that it's dangerous for adult pedestrians to walk on sidewalks - drivers don't even bother to look to the right when making a right turn. In some areas of the country, people are better, but even so, it's worse now in the area where I grew up than it was when I was growing up (although it's still better there now than it is where I currently live).


It's not IMPOSSIBLE for drivers to drive more carefully - it really can be done!! but it will only happen if we as a society make changes to make it happen: enforce traffic laws ruthlessly, and have more respect for one another and stop driving so damn recklessly.

About 10 years ago in Seattle, the police really cracked down on drivers not yielding to pedestrians. The law was that you could not enter any crosswalk (which could be unpainted crosswalks - which existed at any intersection) if a pedestrian was in the lane you were going into or the lane on either side. This really slowed traffic down - and cut way down on the number of elderly, in particular, who were hit/killed by cars. Of course, the police presence slowed the cars down as well.

And drive - and do nothing else: don't eat, don't pick things up off the floor, don't rummage in your glove compartment, don't shave, don't talk on the phone, don't put on make-up.

[question everything]

149. Kids used to bike to school but not any more

(and then we worry about obese kids).

I used to live next to an elementary school and it was frightening the way parents were quickly driving to drop their kids and then hurry to their work or back home. Sure, I wouldn't like to have my kid maneuvering a bike, or even walking, when so many SUVs (of course) were fighting for a space, double parking if they were actually taking the kid to the entrance. Yes, the local police routinely directed traffic there, issuing citations, motioning to cars to get moving.

But if more kids were cycling to school and fewer dropped by cars, everyone would be safer.

[jbnow]

150. A police car

almost hit my son doing that right turn without looking thing. My son had the right of way, the policeman threatened to ticket him and impound the bike. My son was a teen then, too naive to believe the police might be unfair, he figured he was just not informed. He started explaining the law and right away to the policeman. That made the policeman angry but he backed off those threats and said he'd better not see him causing trouble, then left.

My son was Mr. Environment and rarely used a car and I did worry a lot. I was so aware of cyclists but noticed many people are not. I know people on bikes can be careless too but I see the careful ones often almost hit when riding on urban streets.

The main negligence is that every time roads are redone that a bike lane with a divider is not built in. It seems the gas crisis in the 70's would have gotten us to do that, cycling is a healthy and *cheap* way to get to work but it is simply dangerous. Lanes are narrow, cars are hurrying, too many are getting their coffee or phone calls or changing stations or whatever.

(To qualify *cheap* true cyclists often have bikes that are anything but cheap. My son had a road bike and mountain bike and he raced. I think his bikes were worth more than my car)

[UTUSN]

35. You mean, Jack CAFFERTY? n/t

[rniel]

37. I have been riding my bike to work a lot lately and

It's amazing how mean people are. About 3 different times people threw glass bottles at me driving by at about 55 miles an hour. For no reason at all. Luckily they haven't had a direct hit yet.

It's a universal truth people suck. But especially republicans.

[debbierlus]

47. That is beyond horrible. What the hell!

Surreal.

[Guaranteed]

64. Yeah, it is. People are fucking RIDICULOUS in their behavior. nt

[MazeRat7]

38. I'm sure there are statutes on the books already in your state for this...

Like Involuntary Manslaughter.... At least here in Texas those are all Felony's with stiff penalties.

MZr7

[debbierlus]

43. Many cyclists on roads they should NOT be on!

I live in Western MA. Lots of narrow roads. I can't believe anyone would be crazy to bike on these roads. It would be so easy to come around the corner and hit someone. Many times they are too far out in the lane.

Drivers should be careful no doubt. But, I wouldn't bash every driver that hit a cyclist by accident. I am sure in some of these cases, the CYCLIST was at fault. In those cases, the driver has to live the rest of their lives with that on their shoulders, even if they weren't be irresponsible drivers.

Cyclists frighten the hell out of me. I am always scared I am going to hit one!

[lindisfarne]

44. Bikers are entitled to a lane, just as a driver of a car is. If the lane

is not wide enough for the biker to safely move to the right so a car can safely pass, you simply have to allow the biker to have the lane (just as you would have to put up with another car in front of you.) It's your responsibility to see bikers and pedestrians, and to drive safely for the road conditions (how do you know there won't be a broken-down car up around one of those curves? drive appropriately for the road conditions.)

Think of it this way: the cyclist isn't polluting. You are. Reward the cyclist for respecting the environment. And consider petitioning your city to widen the road to make it safer for cyclists.

[debbierlus]

50. The reality is the roads are not designed for safe vehicle AND bicycle

Passage...

I am sorry. But, if there is no bike lane on the road and the road is treacherous, the biker is putting himself in mortal danger. What is a driver suppossed to do coming around a corner on a road like this with a biker in the lane?! There is no way the state or town could afford to widen all these roads to make them safe for cyclists. The situation by its very nature is incredibly unsafe. As for polluting, I don't get where that comes into this discussion at all. I live in a state that has five to six months of winter, and cycling isn't an option for reliable year round transportation.

It is unfair to the cyclist that the situation is this way. But, that doesn't change the fact that driving on curvy, windy roads with no bike lane and not an inch for error is a suicidal thing to do!

[lindisfarne]

54. What if the person can't afford a car and has no other route? The speed

limit on those road should be lowered. If it's so curvy you can't stop in time to miss a biker, you also can't stop in time to avoid hitting a broken-down vehicle (which could kill you, the driver, in addition to the driver/passengers of the other vehicle). Petition the appropriate authority to lower the speed limit if it's currently unsafe.

[debbierlus]

58. I would be for a car pool program

Look, the reality of this situation is that we have many, many roads in this area that have no bike lane and not suited for safe bicycle passage. I told you, it sucks for the cyclist. But, the fact that they don't have other means of transportation doesn't change the fact that these roads are unsafe to ride on. It only takes a split second for something to happen.

[lindisfarne]

65. It only takes a split second for a driver to not see a broken down car.

Or a tree - or a large rock - or a deer - up around that curve. Getting rid of the bikes won't take care of these issues. If the speed limit doesn't allow drivers time to slow down when encountering something up around a curve, it's too high. It's a safety issue that goes far beyond bikers.

[debbierlus]

121. The point is that the bikers are in very high danger traveling these roads

The biker's can insure not being killed by not traveling on these unsafe roads. I am not trying to tell people not to ride bikes! There are certain areas that are not suitable for cycling (due to whatever reason), and people expose themselves to high risk of injury by traveling them.

[LostinVA]

76. Too bad -- that's the law in most states

A bike is entitled to a COMPLETE lane like a car is. But, THIS area has really nice, wide bike lanes... no excuse for anyone to go into it unless they were having a heart attack or something.

The anti-cyclists comments on here are amazing -- and I don't even ride my bike in traffic anymore, because of this very thing -- drivers who don't respect bikes. MOST cyclists I see every day are helmeted, and abide by proper laws and rules.

[debbierlus]

122. My comments are not anti-biker

I road a bike all through college, I didn't have a car until after I graduated. I do not treat bikers disrespectfully and I do not have anything against them traveling on safe roads. What on earth is the problem with pointing out that there are areas that are unsafe for bike travel?!

That is my point!

This is Western MA, NOT the flatlands! There are plenty of areas that bikers CAN ride that our safe. That not all roads are fit for cycling is NOT a commentary of cyclists. It is a comment on reality.

[LostinVA]

79. What if the person came around the corner and a slow-moving car was there

No difference. Bikes -- in most states -- have the same rights as cars.

[BiggJawn]

87. Well, cars have bumpers, and airbags, and seatbelts...

Those "toys' have nothing.

That "Cyclists shouldn't be on the roads" mentality is what makes us want blood when some cell-phone-talking, hamburger-dropping-in-the-lap unaware cage cargo hits one of us.

Unless there's a sign prohibiting bicycles, like on most Interstates and other limited-access roads, we have EVERY right to be there!

[Rosemary2205]

59. The only reason those roads are unsafe for cyclist and pedestrians

is because drivers think the road belongs to them.

[LostinVA]

80. Bingo n/t

[debbierlus]

124. No. The reason they are unsafe:

NO bike lane. ZERO room. (And, I mean ZERO room, no place to go, if a car is coming in the other lane.

Sharp, narrow curves.

Blind spots

Poor cycling conditions (lots of sand on the side of these roads due to the heavy use during the winter months, side lanes can be very gravel heavy)

This is silly. I can't believe I am having to put up an argument that certain roads are not suitable for bike travel.

[lindisfarne]

127. The only reason those roads are unsafe for cyclist and pedestrians

is because drivers think the road belongs to them. If it's safe for any car, drivers can drive in a way and at a speed which will be safe for bikers on the road.

Of course, it's up to the authorities responsible for the road to post a SAFE speed limit. If cars can't stop in time when they encounter something "unexpected" around a curve, the speed is too high.

[question everything]

140. Curvy roads can be unsafe for cars

Several months ago we traveled Hwy 1 from San Francisco north to Mendocino. I think that, at least the first 20 miles from Marine, are the curviest road in the country.

There were not many cars, was the middle of February on a weekday. But at some point some jerk decided to pass a car coming at us just at the curve. My spouse, who was driving, was waiting for something like that and hit the breaks immediately, as did the car behind us and the two coming toward us. But it could have been worse.

Perhaps if more drivers will cite for not sharing the roads with cyclists, we may be able prevent accidents between cars.

[Zookeeper]

170. Yikes! I know that stretch of road well....

passing on one of those curves is homicidal.

[Rosemary2205]

45. Every driver has a responsibility.

Here there aren't any sidewalks or bikelanes -- which is pure idiocy IMHO. Our community tried bike cops for awhile in the suburban shopping district and the damn SUV's kept running them over. You can't tell me cops were acting like bike maniacs.

Everyone thinks everyone else is at fault -- Oh, I *****never***** get aggressive or distracted behind the wheel of a car. --- Oh well ****I**** can yap on my cell phone and drive at the same time, too bad the other idiots are ruining it for me. -----Oh I ****never***** go flying through a school zone.

Yadda yadda yadda. Well I'm with you regarding they should rot in jail. A car is a killing machine. A 2-3 ton killing machine. It's a RESPONSIBILITY not a RIGHT. Pedestrians and bikers ALWAYS have the right of way. ALWAYS. Even if they are crossing against the light, or not entirely in a bike lane or whatever.

And if you need to change the CD, fumble in the glove box, put on your damn makeup or yap on the phone or eat - DO IT IN PARK. Pull over first.

DAMMIT.

[lindisfarne]

61. 100% in agreement. I always slow down when I see bikes, just as I

slow down when I see kids anywhere near a road. Just in case. I don't care if I'm at the speed limit and therefore am within the law - it would destroy me to kill a kid - losing 10-20 seconds by slowing down is nothing. And I'm happy to slow down to reward those who aren't polluting by driving a car.

[jeffrey_X]

118. Do bikers have a responsibility to obey the traffic laws?

Because they sure don't here in Chicago. They don't stop at stop signs, they don't stop at red lights, they go the opposite way down one-way streets...just to name a few.

If we are going to share the streets equally, shouldn't we all be following the same laws?

Disclamier: I have some buddies that are bikers, so this isn't a big deal and I don't hate bikers Just a rant I wanted to get off my chest.

Thanks.

[Rosemary2205]

156. They do and they don't

While cyclists have a responsibility to follow traffic laws and look out for themselves, IMHO it's the car driver who should always be yielding the right of way to the pedestrians and cyclists simply by virtue of the fact that car can kill. Even if TECHNICALLY it's the biker's fault - dead is still dead and any sane car driver is going to be upset beyond beyond. Sometimes it can't be avoided -- as exampled by an earlier post where a biker jumped out where they shouldn't and got the big squish. But too many times - WAY too many times -- it's the car driver not slowing down, not in full command of the vehicle, distracted etc - and when a biker does something less than perfect a death results where it wouldn't if the car driver would just accomodate.

[question everything]

167. Excellent post. Thank you (nt)

[Ms. Toad]

126. Can't speak for pedestrians

(I think the law varies quite a bit there) but bikers do not always have the right of way. Bikers are required to follow (and are entitled to the protection of) the same laws as cars in most jurisdictions. That means that there are times that bikers do not have the right of way - when turning left into the path of an oncoming car, or crossing against the light, or creeping up between cars at a light, for example. There are, unfortunately, some bikers who push the limits by not obeying the laws.

However I have encountered, in my 20+ years of experience as a rural-suburban-urban biker, far more drivers who ignore the law and treat bicyclists as if they have no right to be on the road. I am buzzed (vehicles passing within 1-2 feet of my elbow) virtually every time I ride on the road. Because of this, even when there is a berm (no bike lanes here) I still always ride 1-2 feet into the roadway. For my own safety I need to be able to have a patch of road to escape to on which I can still control my bike when the "buzzer" misjudges his/her intended 1 foot margin and is only an inch or two away.

[MissB]

46. I don't think life in jail is the appropriate punishment here.

It sucks that he died. It sucks that it was the carelessness of a driver that killed him.

I fear that everytime my kids head out on an out-of-state multi-day bike trip.

Drivers should be much more careful. I assume that more and more people will get out of their cars and onto their bikes as the price of gas continues to climb. Along with that trend, I hope we see a lot more "share the road" educational campaigns.

I remember being harrassed by a guy in a truck once. I was on a street designated as a bike route (shared usage, but expect lots of bikes) along with two other bike commuters. The guy in the truck was being an ass - he wanted to be somewhere and we were in the way (and since we were crossing the streets with stoplights, there really wasn't any way or reason for us to be going faster or move out of the way).

We cheered when a cop pulled him over a few blocks later. People like that scare me even more than careless drivers.

[leftofthedial]

49. personally, I'll await the findings of the investigation

so far, no citations issued

[lindisfarne]

51. In Southern Cal, they rarely issue a citation even if you don't stop at

a stop sign, or if you're going 50 in a 35 mph zone. I've seen cops observe people do both things and not do anything. In my area, all you'd have to do is put a cop on the side of the road and they could easily stop speeders constantly (the only limiting factor is how much time it takes to process the ticket for each speeder). I've asked the dept. to do this; in short, the answer is "we don't have the personnel" (which is true; when I've pointed out that the ticket revenue would pay for another officer, I get the official response "We don't use tickets as revenue-generators". To which I've responded "I wish you would.")

[leftofthedial]

55. with a fatality, do you really think there will be no findings?

The investigation is ongoing.

[lindisfarne]

57. We'll see. Even "A car veered into the bike lane in which the couple was

cycling" doesn't assure me that a citation will eventually be issued - cars are king in Southern Ca. Now if the driver had hit another car .. that would be a different story. It shouldn't take a fatality for a citation to be issued (but I agree that even in Southern Cal, it will tip the scales a little more in that direction). You'd think a citation would already have been issued, given that the law says "It's illegal to enter a bike lane under California Vehicle Code 21209 (A). The exceptions are to park where parking is permitted, to enter or leave a roadway, and to prepare for a turn within 200 feet of an intersection."

[Bigmack]

56. My wife and I bike a LOT...

.. mostly rural roads and residential areas.

Some people pass us and go wide... even if there is a bike lane. We call them Good Drivers.

Some people cut close and seem to speed up as they pass us... bike lane or not. The preponderance of these people drive SUV's. We call them Republicans, because those driving characteristics fit Repubs perfectly.....

[question everything]

141. I do hope that both of you wear helmets

and bright clothes. If you can attack a flag to the bike, and one of those bright triangle, this helps also.

And you are right about the Republicans. When we go to REI, which provides camping and outdoor equipment, most of the cars still have a Kerry Edwards bumper stickers. When you go to Cabella, which is more of hunting and powerful machines like snow mobiles, this is Bush country.

[Guaranteed]

60. I have been hit by TWO cars. Once on a bike, once walking.

The first time, on the bike, it was clearly the fault of the driver of the car. He turned right in front of me. The second time, while I was walking, I would say was probably more my fault, even though I was right in front of a high school, AND in a crosswalk. I wasn't paying attention.

People sometimes hurt others unintentionally. This guy is probably going to get sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars. So be it. But he doesn't deserve to get thrown in jail, let alone for the rest of his life.

He probably feels unbelievably horrible about what happened. That's enough "punishment," besides whatever financial "restitution" could be deemed possible.

Your post is angry and irrational.

[Guaranteed]

67. Oh, and one of my best friends in college almost died after

getting hit by a car on his bike. That accident was his fault, though. He was wearing headphones, and didn't look before crossing a street. Boom.

His stomach burst, and he'd just eaten. It all spilled into his abdomen, caused a massive infection. His temperature was up and down around 108 for weeks in the hospital.

He made it, but he hasn't been the same since.

[question everything]

142. Yes, angry and fearful

we used to ride there on the weekend, so I felt as if this couple could have been us.

A driver should always be at fault when the car hits a pedestrian or a cyclist. Why? Because a mass of steel hits a person. Yes, drivers have to drive defensively. This is why pedestrians always have the right of way at crosswalk. Of course, we always teach our children to stop and look both ways. Who wants to be right and dead?

But perhaps, especially if we want to encourage more people to cycle to work, we will start emphasizing this point, if we will stop dismissing hitting pedestrians and cyclists as "accidents" perhaps people will start concentrating more on driving, defensively, and less on conducting business meetings and planning their days.

[seemunkee]

63. I lost a good friend in high school like this

rural road, speeding car, didn't even stop. The next car passing was a doctor who tried to help but his death was immediate.

[question everything]

143. How awful. Sorry for your loss (nt)

[bleedingheart]

66. While riding my bike in a charitable event...people tried to run us off

the road.

This was many years ago, but I was in this thing called the Mon Valley 100 and it was to benefit people with MS and so we all go out early on a Saturday morning...pay our fees and start riding..

There was this guy in this beat up old car who kept circling around trying to cause bikers to swerve off the road. Finally someone called the cops on the bastard...

[Dora]

68. I HIT A CYCLIST WITH MY CAR ONCE.

I was stopped at a stop sign, waiting to turn right from a secondary street onto a busy thoroughfare. It was after 5:00 p.m., it was not yet dark, traffic was heavy, and I had been waiting for at least a minute for an opening in the traffic (I mention the time only to illustrate the nature of my stop).

I watched both left and right, left and right, left and right. The traffic coming from the left opened up, so I began my turn, striking a cyclist that had approached me 1) from the right, 3) at a high rate of speed, 2) on the sidewalk, obscured by business signage along the roadway.

I knocked her and her bike over and into the path of oncoming traffic. I have never in my life moved so fast, and I was in my eighth month of pregnancy. I immediately got out of my car, went to her and her bike (traffic was still clear, miraculously), and as she was already standing and limping over to the curb, I picked up her bike and lifted it out of the street.

I thought I had killed somebody. I was a killer already in my mind. I was terrified. I thought that she was going to get crushed under a car. I was reeling from a surreal sense of grief and shock, even though the situation was under control and the damage to everyone involved was minimal. There was a minor scuff on the bumper of our car, and her knee was banged up pretty good from the spill she took in the street.

I sat down with her, apologizing profusely for hitting her with my car. WHY? She had violated all the rules of the road - riding against traffic, riding on the sidewalk, failing to communicate her intentions clearly to other persons on the roadway. I was nearly hysterical with regret and relief. "I'm so sorry," I said over and over again, "I'm so sorry."

She had just bought the bicycle, and was riding it to a friend's house down the hill. I asked her if I could drive her and her bicycle there. No. Can I drive you to a doctor, hospital, or your friend's house, please? No. She didn't want anything, she looked like she just wanted to get away from this crazy and hugely pregnant lady who had just nearly killed her with an old Volvo station wagon. I gave her my name and phone number; she wadded it up and stuffed it in a pocket and left.

I got back into my car and drove home, only a half-mile away. I looked at the car in our driveway. I could see that the scuff on our bumper could be rubbed out, and all evidence that I had hit her erased. I went into the house and told my husband about what had happened. I cried. I told him that I was terrified that she would sue us, that nobody else was involved except her and me. I told him that I was afraid that she really was hurt, some awful internal injuries that would take hours to appear.

I rode a bicycle as my only mode of transportation for two years. I know how to share the road with traffic. I know how to ride in the street, and I know how to ride on the sidewalk. I was NOT responsible for that accident, but I will never stop being sorry that it happened.

So, put me away. All cars and drivers are guilty, I guess.

[seabeyond]

74. couple decades ago, pullling out of business, same thing

i had traffic coming out of four different directions i was watching. NEVER thought to look in front of me. as i pull out and excelerate, i hit someone. no bike lanes, my side of the street, over the trunk onto the street. and yes, the feeling is horrible. on top of it, i had the cops trying ot make me feel better, an ambulance there, and a news camera sticking a camera in my face.... it was hoorible. when the cops did let me go, cuase i was so upset and had to drive a couple blocks, THEY came into my business to see if i was ok.

my insurance took care of everything with cyclist,.... all their fault.


now whenever in that situation, as i am watching all the other traffic to merge into, i take a quick glance in front of me, to make sure nothing is there either.

[lindisfarne]

82. Yours is a different situation than the one in the OP. In that, the driver

entered the bike lane and was observed (by witnesses) to be fumbling in the glove compartment.

You didn't kill the biker in part because you weren't breaking laws. You had stopped at the stop sign (a rare thing in Southern Cal. where drivers often coast through the sign, giving them less time to see pedestrians and bikes and making it more likely they will hit them). You did look both right and left (again, a rare thing in Southern Cal. where about 50% of the drivers (based on my observations as a pedestrian) look only to the left (where the traffic is coming from) when making a right turn.

Although I would say it could have just as easily been a runner as a bicyclist who was crossing in front of you - the runner would have been going in the correct direction (against traffic) for a pedestrian.

As someone else said, a car is a 2-3 ton killing machine, and it's the driver's responsibility to do everything they can to see pedestrians and bikers. From your report, it would appear you did - and this prevented a death - only a minor accident occurred.

By the way: riding on the sidewalk is often the SAFEST place for bikers because of the way so many people drive. (Southern Cal. has the most extensive system of UNUSED sidewalks I've ever seen; if there's not a pedestrian in sight (usually the case), I often choose them. There have been far too many cases where a car has passed far too closely (breaking the speed limit) when I've had to ride in the road (amazingly, this happens when cars pass cars, too = too much machismo or something - got to pass as close as possible to make your point that the other car (which is doing the speed limit) is slowing you down).

[Dora]

99. The OP doesn't distinguish between OK and not OK situations.

The OP made a broad-brush generalization. I appreciate you pointing out the difference, though.

I agree that the sidewalk can be the safest place for bicycles - but that's only if you're riding with the flow of traffic. If you're on a bike and riding against traffic, you're only doubling the likelihood that a driver waiting to turn won't see you. That's exactly what happened to me.

Unfortunately, here in Austin, I understand that it's illegal for bicycles to use the sidewalks. Period. It's a bad law, but the cycling community hasn't made any protest, to the best of my knowledge.

[lindisfarne]

102. You've got to wonder where they think kids should be riding if not on

the sidewalk ... are kids supposed to bike on a busy road to get from one place to another? Do the cops ticket kids for biking on the sidewalk (that would get the law changed mighty fast!)

[Dora]

103. Most of our residential streets don't have sidewalks.

When I moved here I couldn't believe it. New subdivisions are putting sidewalks in, but all of our central (older) neighborhoods are devoid of sidewalks. I agree - it's a hassle and a hazard, and I'm nervous about our son someday learning how to ride a bike of his own.

Of course, when that day comes, maybe gas will be so expensive that the number of cars on the road will be reduced by half.

[lindisfarne]

104. I think about how we used to play in the street all the time - not just

biking, but kickball, etc. The few cars which went down our street did so at about 20-25 mph (and amazingly, on the "busy" street the next street over, the cars obeyed the speed limit of 30 mph).

Now, on the same street, cars go down it at 30-35 mph (despite the fact they have to stop every 1/8 of a mile at a stop sign and the speed limit is 25 mph, they manage to speed up and slam on their brakes ... although some don't completely stop). And on the "busy" street, cars push the speed limit (although the cops in that town are fairly good at enforcing the speed limit on the "busy" streets so it's not by more than about 5 mph).

The roads haven't changed - it's people who have changed. Most of these people live within half a mile. The neighborhood is still full of kids, but people just don't care as much about their safety to slow down a bit.

Seattle has a fairly extensive system of little "islands" in the middle of intersections which form a mini-round-about rather than stop signs; cars have to slow down to navigate the islands. Research showed that cars actually go faster between stop signs than they do between these island. (It works in Seattle because they don't have snow in the winter, so they can make the area around the island narrow enough for a car to pass but also force the car to slow down in order to pass. In a place like MN, you'd have to make it wider so snowplows would have room to pile up snow in the winter, so I'm not sure it would work as well: wider means cars wouldn't have to slow down as much to navigate it).

[Zookeeper]

171. Each of my kids learned to ride a bike a little later than...

normal, because of our lack of sidewalks. I ended up taking each one to an empty parking lot to teach them and I'm still reluctant to let them ride outside of our little, low-traffic neighborhood.

We live near a private college and it's like these students all come from places where bike lanes are non-existant. They ALL use the bike lane as a right turn lane. I keep trying to explain to my kids that riding to McDonald's or the convenience store is just not worth the risk, considering the inexperienced and careless high school student drivers (we have a H.S. in our neighborhood), the clueless college student drivers, the harried just-got-off-work drivers and the delayed reflex elderly drivers.

I'm shopping for a bike rack so I can drive them to some nearby parks with bike trails.

[Ms. Toad]

128. Bikes are considered vehicles

and are not permitted on sidewalks - and in some jurisdictions in which I have lived were regularly ticketed.

[lindisfarne]

131. Oregon Revised Statute 811.050 makes it a Class B traffic infraction for a

motorist to fail to yield to the right of way to a bicyclist on a sidewalk, unless the bicyclist is in violation of another statute, ORS 814.410, which provides that a person commits the offense of "unsafe operation of a bicycle on a sidewalk" if the person:

Suddenly leaves the curb or other place of safety and moves into the path of a vehicle, causing an immediate hazard.
Fails to give an audible warning before passing a pedestrian while riding on the sidewalk.
Fails to yield to all pedestrians on the sidewalk.
Rides carelessly or in a manner that endangers others or endangers property.
Rides at a speed greater than an ordinary walk when approaching or entering a crosswalk, driveway, curb cut or pedestrian ramp if a motor vehicle is approaching.
============
Not all states disallow bikes on sidewalks (CA law doesn't disallow them either) although local ordinance may restrict them.

===================
an example:
Her client was riding his bike on a sidewalk in Sellwood when he collided with a motorist who was making a "blind" exit from a parking lot. The motorist and cyclist probably could not see each other until it was too late to avoid a collision. The motorist sued the bicyclist for the damage to her car. An arbitrator found for the cyclist, deciding that he was not responsible for the damage to the car.

It was apparent that the motorist was thinking more about making a safe entrance into the lane of traffic than she was about sidewalk users. She seemed to expect anyone using the sidewalk to stop for her, rather than taking responsibility for stopping for sidewalk traffic. The primary lesson to be learned from this case is that by and large, motorists do not do a very good job of looking out for bicyclists or for anticipating what they are going to do. That is why it is important for bicyclists to be prepared for the inattentive motorist, and to be prepared to stop quickly when using the sidewalk, even though by law the motorist is supposed to yield to the bicycle.

[Ms. Toad]

134. Guess my statement was too strong

Bicycles are treated as vehicles in all 50 states - but some localities also permit bicycles to be operated on sidewalks.

Not a recommended practice for a variety of safety reasons, but it is legal in some places.

[CAcyclist]

105. Illustrating Why Sidewalk Riding is Dangerous

Thank you for your story - - now for everyone on this thread - can we all stop with the always and never scenarios?

The fact is the bicyclist has an extreme disadvantage in proving the car driver was negligent especially when the cyclist is dead, because collisions occur so quickly and often there are no witnesses. Laws that do penalize drivers are laughable - 1-3 years in jail for manslaughter? People who do drugs and don't endanger anyone serve more time.

No, not every driver is guilty, but right now, "I didn't see him/her" seems to be a get out of jail free card most of the time a cyclist or pedestrian is injured or killed, despite strong evidence of speeding, despite hitting cyclists who were riding in the bike lane,etc,etc.

What we need to level the playing field is to shift to responsibility for proving innocence from the cyclist to the driver. In other words, a strict liability law, like they have in Europe. And this should be extended to all classes of vehicles, not just bicyclists.

The idea behind a strict liability law is that the driver of the larger vehicle assumes a greater responsibility for the damage that vehicle can do if that person chooses to use it on the road. Thus, an SUV hitting a smaller car, or a car hitting a bicyclist means that the larger, heavier vehicle in each case is automatically liable for the other person's actual damages (medical, structural) not punative damages, unless the driver of the larger vehicle can prove that the smaller vehicle or bicyclists or pedestrian was grossly negligent - i.e. drunk, driving the wrong way, running a red light, etc. Punative damages would still be something the victim would have to prove separately - like if someone intentionally ran that person over with a car.

[lastliberalintexas]

119. Guilty until proven innocent?

No thanks. While I can empathize with how cyclists must feel on the roads, what you are advocating would be an incredible break from the traditions of our legal system. Even in cases such as this, the government should still bear the burden of proving beyond any reasonable doubt that the motorist was guilty of a criminal offense.


And as someone who works in the legal system, I must say that I'm very disappointed in so many of the responses here. We should be extremely careful about the limited instances in which we allow criminal sanctions for an **unintentional** act.

[question everything]

147. In a crosswalk a pedestrians always have the right of way

please check your legal books.

This is why there are signs not only at the walkways, but also several feet earlier, warning that a crosswalk is there.

Thus, even if someone all of a sudden darts into the crosswalks, the driver is guilty. At least, s/he should be. I suppose this falls under the "guilty until proven innocent."

The same should be with bike lanes. Perhaps if we will start enforcing these laws and not dismiss these events as no-fault "accidents," if we determine that a car is always at fault when a pedestrian or a cyclist is involved and punish the drivers, we will have more drivers paying attention to the road instead of to other activities.

[lindisfarne]

148. In many states, a "crosswalk" exists at any intersection, regardless of

whether one is actually painted.

Many states also consider it illegal for cars to enter bike lanes unless one needs to to turn or cross to another road. In which case, the car is supposed to yield to the bike and allow the bike to go first, not speed around them and cut them off short to make the turn.

This is certainly the case in California, where the biker in the OP was killed.

[lastliberalintexas]

157. The existence of the crosswalk is immaterial

to which party has the burden of proof and persuasion in the criminal prosecution. You're mixing your metaphors, my friend.

The crosswalk or bike path can be evidence that the driver was in the wrong, just as the dead body with a hole in its head is some evidence that a murder was committed. But just as with any other criminal prosecution, the government should and does still bear the burden of proving that the driver was in the wrong. The evidence that someone was hit while legally walking in a crosswalk is strong evidence of a crime, but not conclusive in and of itself.


"we determine that a car is always at fault when a pedestrian or a cyclist is involved and punish the drivers, we will have more drivers paying attention to the road instead of to other activities."

We've tried that absolutist approach to the War on Drugs. How's that working for us?

[question everything]

159. Yes. But when you find someone next to the dead body with a hole

in his head holding a smoking gun (literally) or just there, the first thing that the police will do is arrest him. Then they will consider bail, and will start collecting evidence to for indictment. And if there are special reasons for leniency like a bee in the car or a child opening a door, these extenuating circumstances will be for the jury and the judge to consider, not the police and the DA.

Similarly, a driver who hits a pedestrian on a crosswalk or a cyclist on a bike lane should be first taken into custody and than allow for bail posting etc.

Just as with a dead body, when a pedestrian or a cyclist who was hit while being in the "allowed" space, it should be considered a crime scene with suspects being taken into custody. But in the story above, and in too many others, no citation is issued until the matter is investigated. The order should be reversed. First issue a citation, arrest the driver, then collect the evidence.

There are many instances where someone is murdered "by accident." But we first arrest the person and then we determine whether it was "an accident."

[liberalhistorian]

70. What about bicyclists, especially

kids, who run right out in front of cars before they have the chance to stop? Or bicyclists who don't follow safety rules and practices like they're supposed to and get hit by a car whose driver IS driving safely? I've seen both happen too many damn times to automatically assign guilt and blame to a driver when a cyclist is hit.

My own son ran right out in front of a car on his bike when he was younger; he actually hit the side of the car with his wheel. The driver was obeying all rules, driving slowly and safely, and it would have been my son's fault had he been injured or killed. The kid got a real good smackdown and talking-to for that; the poor driver was nearly hysterical, even though it wasn't his fault.

I've seen adult bike riders run right out in front of people and not do what they're supposed to do, including staying on bike paths, either. Not every cyclist getting hit is automatically the fault of the driver.

[BooScout]

75. It was an accident.......not a murder.

Don't you think you are a bit harsh?

I used to live in Atlanta, along a popular bike path. VERY FEW cyclists used it. They didn't like that it had more hills than the road and perferred the streets. That bike path cost millions but they couldn't be bothered. The vast majority of them broke every traffic law there is. Ran red lights, darted in and out of traffic, rode 3 or 4 abreast blocking traffic, passed on the right at almost all intersections and then ran the red lights.

I have always avoided bikers as best I can, and that in Atlanta was a miracle considering that many seem to think they owned the road and were not subject to traffic laws.

[welshTerrier2]

78. if you want to learn about safe cycling

i highly recommend this book:

Effective Cycling by John Forester

[lindisfarne]

86. What book do you recommend for safe driving? To stay alive given

the fact that drivers refuse to see cyclists and pedestrians (even those who religiously follow the laws - more so than do most drivers), I advise both to be extremely cautious. But even being extremely cautious, a careless driver can kill you. How many pedestrians in crosswalks are killed by drivers???

[BiggJawn]

90. "Hang up and DRIVE!" by Not Asleep-at-the-Wheel

Can't recall ever seeing a cyclist going down the road with the WSJ and half a breakfast burrito draped over his handlebars while he shaved.

[Kingshakabobo]

132. I see bicyclists on the phone ALL THE TIME.

I guess they are republican bicyclists?

[Susang]

174. LOL

I'll be sure to tell the three cyclists I saw talking on their cells today that. Two of them were eating, the other one was smoking a cigarette.

Head over to the big city sometime, not all bicyclists are health nuts here. They're just as distracted and self-destructive as the rest of humanity.

[welshTerrier2]

107. the same book ...

one of the real dangers for cyclists is not just inept drivers but drivers who have no idea how to "share the road" ...

i can't tell you how many drivers i've seen get aggressive with cyclists who take left turns from the left lane ... i think they think we're supposed to squirrel away along the curb and walk our bikes across the intersections ...

Forester's Effective Cycling would be a great book to teach both cyclists and drivers how to get along on the roads ...

btw, when was the last time you saw a commercial that your state or city paid for to teach drivers how to "share the road"? i'm not sure i ever have seen one ... sounds like it's not much of a priority, eh?

[JuniperLea]

92. Not always the fault of the driver of the car

I've seen it be the cyclists fault as well... and I've been at fault as a cyclist.

The most heartbreaking crash I ever heard about was a young lady who was my neighbor for many years... her mother died of cancer. A year later, she was cycling to the cemetery to visit her mother's grave when an elderly woman (who should not have been driving, imho) struck and killed her... right in front of her father, who now had lost a wife and a daughter a year apart.

I've seen it happen both ways and a blanket statement does no one any good.

[MiniMe]

106. Bike couriers in DC have no regard for cars or traffic

They weave in and out of traffic, run red lights and try to beat the cross traffic. Accidents happen, sometimes it is not the drivers fault. If somebody veers suddenly in front of you, you may not be able to stop in time.

[MountainLaurel]

112. Last week, my husband saw

One drive the wrong way up a multi-lane, one-way street near GW. He was pretty much appalled.

[yellowjacket]

130. I saw one get hit at 20th and K last year

She was going the wrong up up the little access roads they have all along K and got tagged.

Anyone who thinks that bikers are saints should come to DC on a weekday and see what goes on. Try getting away with that in a car. Forget it.

[Kaylee]

177. I was thinking about them......I have almost hit a courier on

numerous occassions because of their weaving in and out of traffic. They make me nervous (although not as nervous as teenagers on crotch-rockets going over 100 mph on the beltway!!!!).

[ContraBass Black]

108. This morning, an angry driver whipped around an accident

Unnecessarily blocking an intersection, threw a hard left turn into an intersection without signaling, and damn near nailed me and my mountain bike.

[rainbow4321]

109. Another sad one: MADD volunteer killed by drunk driver

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/052306dnwebsartain.10efd39f.html

According to Dallas police, driver Astrid Karlsson, 60, of Dallas was northbound when Mr. Sartain was hit. Ms. Karlsson eventually lost control of the car, causing it to overturn. She was taken to Baylor University Medical Center, where she was in fair condition, a hospital spokeswoman said.

Ms. Karlsson has been charged with intoxication manslaughter, failure to stop and render aid and driving with a suspended license, police said. Ms. Karlsson’s license was suspended earlier this year for three months ending June 4, Department of Public Safety records state. In May, she pleaded guilty to a charge of driving while intoxicated stemming from a November arrest, according to Dallas County criminal court records.


Mr. Sartain graduated with a business degree from SMU and served as a Peace Corps volunteer stationed in Colombia during the late 1960s. Michael Sartain said his father became interested in national security after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and began educating himself about Islam. Some days, he would attend both church and a mosque, the son said.

A husband to Maria for 30 years and the father of two sons, Richard Sartain belonged to the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce. He also volunteered for Habitat for Humanity and Mothers Against Drunk Driving, Ms. Taylor said.

[Arugula Latte]

110. I almost pulled out in front of two bicyclists going the wrong way

I looked both ways and started to go, but suddenly two cyclists almost plowed into me. They came out of nowhere, riding on the left side of the street. I was so shocked I could only sit there as they screamed at me. It took me a few moments to realize they were in the wrong. It's not always the motorists fault.

[Marr]

113. Take away his driver's license, sure- but jail? Why?

It sounds like it was all an accident. An accident born of incompetence, yes, but what good would jail time do?

I'm a cyclist myself, but I just don't see why this man should go to jail, if in fact the investigation confirms what appears to be the case- that it was all an accident.

[Ezlivin]

117. A hit-and-run driver struck me and left me permanently paralyzed

Back in 1980 I was riding my bicycle and a hit-and-run driver did both.

I went from a strapping 6'7" active male to a frail guy in a wheelchair. (I've bulked up since then, but still can't walk.)

While not calling for the driver's death, I sure would like to sit and chat with him or her. Boy do I have some questions....

[notadmblnd]

120. My husband was struck by a driver once while riding his bike

the man clipped his back tire while making a right turn, Never even stopped. My husband said he did it intentionally because he was angry he had to wait for him to pass before making his turn. Luckily, it was only cuts, bruises and a ruined bike. I can definately relate to how you feel.

[JVS]

123. Not with the way I've seen a lot of bikers riding.

Onto the sidewalk, off of the sidewalk, through stop signs, right across streets where their is neither crossing nor intersection. Some bikers are almost begging to be hit.

[NC_Nurse]

125. As a nurse who's taken care of many

cyclist and motorcyclists, actually I mostly waited for motorcyclists that didn't make it to the recovery room....they died in the OR.
My advice to you is don't ride on the road. Period. Ride on trails, ride on sidewalks. Whatever. You are completely unprotected out there and sorrym but people MAKE MISTAKES!
I know several people who've been killed/maimed on bicycles. Until most people ride bikes instead of driving, I think you should be very careful.

We don't call motorcycles "donorcycles:" for nuthin. And bikes ain't much better.

[Deja Q]

129. Anyonewith a Mercedes should obviously know better.

Anyone wealthy has what it takes, so being observant is a factor.

Make the creep pay.

You don't swerve past the shoulder.

[kestrel91316]

133. I had a guy deliberately try to hit me (on my bike) a week ago on

my way to work. He was having a major temper tantrum about the car behind me being civil toward me, and when that car passed me, the other guy honked and swerved right at me, and missed me by about 2", and that only because I swerved to avoid being hit.

I thought I was going to develop a fatal cardiac arrhthmia, I was so scared. You take your life in your hands riding a bike in Los Angeles. Drivers here tend to be major self-centered assholes without a CLUE what the rules of the road are.

[jbnow]

151. Very sorry that happened

and very scary! Things like that take the joy and the staying healthy part out of cycling. Repeating my wish that on all new road construction or repair they would be required to built a divided bike path.

[SeattleGirl]

153. That is SO wrong, kestrel.

I am so glad you weren't hurt! I've had drivers do that to me while biking and walking. I hate that shit. THOSE people should lose their licenses!

[kestrel91316]

161. IMHO those people should be taken out and SHOT.

[XemaSab]

154. My uncle hit and killed a bicyclist

Windy road at night.

Came round a corner and there was nothing he could do.

It was a total accident and my uncle feels terrible about it to this day.

[SeattleGirl]

155. God, Xema, that's awful!

Once, I almost hit a young child who darted out between two parked cars. I was gong less than 10 mph, but still, I was so upset at ALMOST hitting this kid I had nightmares for awhile.

[FlaGranny]

158. I have nearly hit TWO cyclists, both of whom

were at fault, and both adults, riding their bicycles down sidewalks at a fast rate of speed from behind obstructions to the view of drivers of cars leaving driveways. The only reason I didn't mow them down was due to my fast reflexes. Sometimes it is the cyclist who is at fault. My first husband, years ago, was sued for hitting a teenaged cyclist, who he saw coming, slammed on his brakes and was at a dead stop when the cyclist ran into the side of his car in the middle of the street. Thankfully the kid wasn't badly hurt. Our insurance still had to pay up and we paid with extremely high insurance rates for some time to come.

It is a pretty sweeping statement to say that anyone who hits a cyclist should rot in prison, especially when many times, the cyclist is the one at fault.

[question everything]

168. The cyclists were in a bike lane. Were not

weaving among cars. As others said here, there is no match between a car and a cyclist, or a pedestrians. And pedestrians do stupid things, too. But they always have the right of way at a crosswalk.

Perhaps if we start throwing to jail drivers who pay attention to million other things except to the road, they will realize that their first responsibility is to watch the road around them, not to reach into a glove compartment, not to pick something that dropped on the floor, not to discipline their children and, of course, not to conduct business meetings, watch TV, shaving, reading, putting on makeup.

[Susang]

173. Right

But fair is fair. First you'd have to actually enforce the existing laws for cyclists and pedestrians as well. No blowing through stop signs and red lights, no jaywalking, no getting out of cabs or cars in the middle of intersections. Here in Chicago, I see cyclists daily on cell phones, eating and smoking while they're biking, sometimes two of those three activies at the same time.

We all do stupid things, things we do not think will hurt us or anyone else. It's human nature. I'm sure if you were to honestly examine your behavior, you'd find that to be true of yourself as well. Do you deserve to rot in jail to "send a message" to others, just because some people on an internet forum are angry. No, that's why the police and district attorney investigate each case individually and make a determination based on evidence, not on your emotions.

One more thing about this specific case. If you read the article closely, it says "Witnesses told police the driver could have been reaching into his glove box at the time." It does not say that he was reaching into his glove compartment, only that someone thought that he might have been. So, are you saying that you would throw someone away to "rot in jail" before any actual proof of negligence has been found? Is this still a liberal message board or did I blink and miss something?

[lindisfarne]

176. This isn't a liberal message board. The attitude of drivers towards

bikers shows that.

"We all do stupid things, things we do not think will hurt us or anyone else. It's human nature. "
So if someone stupidly drove drunk, thinking they'd drive slowly and not hurt anyone, you'd excuse that mistake as "human nature" (even if they killed your kid/mother/sister/brother because their reaction time was just a little bit slower)? Doing other things while driving SLOWS your reaction time in a similar way.

What if someone hit and killed your kid because their reactions were slowed down because they were talking on a cell phone or eating? Is that just a stupid thing, that wasn't intended to hurt anyone, and just "human nature"?

Stupid things done while driving which cause an accident should be punished seriously - not excused as "human nature". The difficulty of "proving" those stupid things is one reason why they're not - that, and the fact, that "everyone does them", so most don't want to get too serious about punishing stupidity while driving, in case it comes back to punish them. (Some people do far more stupid things than others; there are some drivers who rarely do stupid things).

This is the idiocy that even the liberals in our country display. Perhaps the OP let her emotions get to her as she posted the message, but the discussion and the negative attitude demonstrated here towards cyclists who are making a concerted effort to do something about pollution and making the world a little better is just amazing.

Our culture is very car-centric, and it's not going to change much if drivers (this means YOU) don't follow the laws and keep their attention on their driving - not on any other activity they might want to do while driving.

I'll bet if I went through the accident reports, there would be very few cyclists who have killed drivers, and lots of drivers who have killed cyclists. (A study in NY showed that the police have a bias to assign fault to cyclists: when the accidents were re-examined, the fault went from being 75% assigned to cyclists to the majority of fault being assigned to drivers).

[question everything]

180. Kevin Phillips, in his new "American Theocracy" book

that has been hailed universally here, cites the addiction to gas guzzlers and the personal religion approach as examples how the South has taken over our national politics. He actually describes this as a reversal of the Civil War.

I have not read the book yet, was quoted to me by my spouse, but it would be interesting to see how he supports the comment about the cars. I know that SUVs and Humvees are everywhere, including in formerly true blue Minnesota.

[FlaGranny]

178. The post was in response

to your "drivers who hit cyclists should spend the rest of their lives in jail", and not a response to the actual accident in the article. Sometimes an accident is the cyclist's fault - I'm only making that point.

Actually, I find it interesting and sometimes a shock that the prevailing opinions on accidents have changed so radically over the past 50 years. In the past, if you were in an accident, even if you were at fault and doing something stupid like racing, the response was sympathy for the victims AND the person or persons causing the accident. People weren't thrown in jail for causing accidents. You knew how you would feel personally if you caused an accident that killed or hurt someone and you pitied them because they'd have to live with it the rest of their lives. Times change, but I still can't bring myself to want to jail someone for a lapse in attention - besides, how could we afford to pay for all the prison cells and how would all the jailed persons support their families?

[deFaultLine]

160. Oil anyone?

It still amazes me that the average American is so emotionally wrapped in a vehicle. No wonder big oil has us by the short hairs.

Bike paths and bike lanes are a joke, if a car drove onto a sidewalk and killed somebody, there would be a citation issued most likely.

Bikes are a great alternative to fossil fuels, but before it can be a viable one, people need to change their attitudes about them. Once attitudes change, then laws will be passed and enforced that provide for the safety of cyclists on bike path and trails.

I gave up riding 3 years ago because of crap like this. I miss it like crazy and am 30 pounds overweight.

[lindisfarne]

166. Yes, the difference I've observed going from riding in Seattle to Southern

California is huge. Seattle drivers to a much greater extent see and expect bikers and pedestrians, plus the police enforce the traffic laws, especially speed limits and "stop on stop sign/stop before right turn on red light" laws.

In Southern California, people roll through stop signs, roll through red lights when making right turns (and they're still moving pretty fast), and regularly exceed the speed limit in residential areas by 10-15 mph - when the speed limit is already too high (usually 45 mph).

Any driver who violates traffic laws is endangering the life of pedestrians and bikers (not to mention people in your car and other cars). Speeding is especially dangerous because it lowers the likelihood you will be able to stop in time. Every driver who eats, drinks, talks on phone, rummages in glove compartment, picks up things from the floor, while driving is also endangering the lives of others.

Everyone driver should ask themselves: what do I value life at? Is it worth risking a life to do the things while driving which increase the likelihood I will cause someone else to die? Is a life worth a hamburger eaten in your car? A chat on the phone? Or is it better to pull off the road and do these sorts of things?

[spanone]

164. And cyclists that ride the road and run stop signs and ignore

light signals should also rot with them.

[lindisfarne]

175. Except cyclists are very unlikely to cause deaths (although they should

follow the road laws, and most commuting bicyclists do. It's teens and recreational (young male) cyclists who I generally observe to be doing stupid things.

[Swamp Rat]

179. "No citations have been issued???"

:wtf: