32 pipe bombs, two grenades, seven sawed-off weapons and a machine gun...

[NNN0LHI]

...and no news coverage from the major new outlets. Now if these guys had been some Muslims practicing with paint ball guns that is all we would have heard about for several weeks.

Don

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0520supremacist0520.html

White supremacist gang busted

Gang, weapons, drug crimes alleged

Michael Kiefer
The Arizona Republic
May. 20, 2006 12:00 AM


A self-named White supremacist gang suspected of trafficking in methamphetamine and illegal weapons was the target of a 14-month, multi-agency investigation that culminated in 42 indictments on gang, weapons and drug charges.

Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas announced the indictments Friday, while standing behind some of the confiscated weapons, including a .50 caliber gun that could bring down a police helicopter from a mile away.

The group reportedly called itself AZ 88 Boot Boys and operated mainly in west Phoenix and Glendale. Thomas identified its leader as 40-year-old Todd Streich; 32 of the accused have been arrested.

[MADem]

1. Oh, is THAT all? I thought that was Deadeye Dick's packing list

for his next huntin' and fishin' trip!

[corkhead]

11. Ah! you beat me to it.

I was going to say it was the contents of Snarl's tackle box:toast:

[Coexist]

28. You are way too fast!

[dogday]

38. Did someone say Dead-Eye Dick?

[Kagemusha]

2. .50 cal isn't necessarily a machinegun.

Not, of course, that it really matters much. Just saying.

[ShaneGR]

19. It's not a machine gun, its an auto-loading max power sniper rifle....

So powerful you have to fire them laying down, I know, I had a bruise on my shoulder for a week after I test fired one at a firing range my uncle used to take us to. While it is an autoloader, it's not meant to be fired more than once every maybe 5 secs.

[Kagemusha]

26. Yeah, that'd be the one. Wouldn't want one firing at me.

Dangerous, even if not a machine gun, which is why I said the "automatic fire" part was not really the point anyway.

[Squatch]

3. "a .50 caliber gun that could bring down a police helicopter from..."

"a mile away..."

Hyperbole much?

[DS1]

5. Someone's been watching too much "SWAT" - the movie

:eyes:

[Xenotime]

66. No. It's true.

[gratuitous]

9. You're right

It's more like a mile and a quarter:

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/M107.html

[Squatch]

39. What's the lead on a flying target at 1.25 miles?

[gratuitous]

42. I dunno, but then I'm not a gun nut

But according to the manufacturer, a .50 caliber rifle has a "maximum effective range" of 2,000 yards. I suppose with a high-powered scope, some practice, and a little luck, an experienced rifleman could nail something as big as a hovering helicopter.

But call it "hyperbole" if you want. All I know is what I read on the manufacturer's website.

[benEzra]

67. 17 feet 2 inches for a target drifting at only 5 mph...

What's the lead on a flying target at 1.25 miles?

17 feet 2 inches for a target drifting at only 5 mph...103 feet 8 inches for a target moving even 30 mph. Forget hitting anything moving at aircraft speeds.

And at that distance, the bullet is also dropping 6 feet 3 inches for every 50 yards of forward travel. So not only do you need to know the target's speed and bearing to within a fraction of a mile per hour, you also have to know the range to the target within +/- 25 yards or so. A 5-mph light breeze will drift the bullet off target by 9 feet 4 inches.

BTW, at that distance, you are dialing in 55 MOA of elevation correction, and the line of sight is 150 feet above the target.


Use the Force, Luke...

[-..__...]

69. "Use the Force, Luke..."

Or just use the pistol grip to spray fire from the hip. That's what it's there for (at least according to the Bradys/VPC/MMM).

[slackmaster]

70. B-b-b-but the MANUFACTURER says the rifle is EFFECTIVE at that range

:dunce:

[benEzra]

73. I sense cognitive dissonance here...

You're right - It's more like a mile and a quarter:

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/M107....

I sense cognitive dissonance here...read the article you linked:

The primary mission of this rifle is to engage and defeat materiel targets at extended ranges to include parked aircraft; command, control, communications, computers, and intelligence (C4I) sites; radar sites; ammunition; petroleum, oil and lubricants; and various other thin skinned (lightly armored) materiel targets out to 2000 meters.

I don't see anything about shooting down anything. And of course, that's assuming the use of military-only explosive-incendiary-AP (Raufoss) rounds...

[gratuitous]

10. Self delete

Clicking too many buttons too quickly.

[Cush]

13. probably a M82 Barrett (50 Cal sniper rifle)

[warrens]

35. Those freakin things are incredible

It's not hyperbole. They're monster guns, incredibly accurate, and there was a move to make them illegal, since they have no conceivable legal use. IIRC, they can shoot accurately well over a mile.

[slackmaster]

37. Hitting a stationary target a mile away with any rifle is very challenging

At 1,000 yards a .50 BMG bullet has dropped several feet already.

Hitting a moving target at any long range would be sheer luck.

...they have no conceivable legal use.

How about shooting at a paper target a mile away? :shrug:

[gratuitous]

40. To be fair, the manufacturer says maximum effective range

So the maximum effective range is 2,000 yards. The rifle can shoot its ammunition over 7,000 yards, so you'd have to wait for a chopper to close from four miles to one mile to be maximize your chance of hitting it.

[slackmaster]

41. At one mile your chances would be slim to none

And Slim just took the last plane to Havana.

[Squatch]

46. To "maximize your chance of hitting it"

you would have to wait until the chopper is 0 (zero) feet in front of you. :freak:

[gratuitous]

51. Kind of jumped off of "hyperbole" haven't we?

Or did you want to go argue with the manufacturer that its .50 caliber rifle can hit a target a mile away?

[Squatch]

52. No, I am just holding you to accurate usage of terminology

If you are going to talk about this stuff, you probably should know proper usage of some basic terminology.

[Kagemusha]

55. Well see, hitting a target a mile away is naturally very hard...

but these .50 cal rifles make the task much, much easier.

In practice, there's only two ways a helicopter could get hit aside from the worst luck ever:

a) Moving, but straight towards the shooter
b) Hovering, more or less stationary

Now, if a helicopter tries to do something like, oh, landing, it's possible to hit one. Now it's not... easy... but with lighter bullets, the rotors are moving enough air that bullets will tend to change course a lot. A .50 cal presents a better chance of hitting a helicopter because of mass. Also, since it's a larger, heavier bullet, it will have a larger chance of doing damage.

However, let's be plain, these rifles are intended for sniping human beings at especially long ranges. On the other hand, were a helicopter to be hit by a .50 cal rifle, the results may not be pretty.

I hope that comes off as fair and reasonable here. Incidentally, I don't think I've heard of a .50 cal ever being used in crimes. I mean, I see stuff like that on TV but, in real life, murderers tend to avoid rare weapons that can be more easily traced back to specific individuals.

[Squatch]

56. People think shooting aircraft only requires a bit of practice.

At the NTC in California, all six of my howitzers were to practice shooting down an aircraft with the M-2 .50 machine gun. The drone is almost the size of a Cessna 150, and flies at about 1000 to 2000 feet away, back and forth at about 80-100 kts.

All six machine guns, each with hundreds of rounds of ammunition, throwing up a wall of lead could not bring down that drone. I was dumbfounded.

I'm sorry, but because of my personal experience, I believe that for a rifleman with one bullet (hell, a whole magazine) CANNOT bring down an aircraft in flight over a mile away. There's just no way that (barring the chance of a extremely lucky shot) the rifleman will be able to determine:

1) The range to the target (No range cues for an aircraft flying in airspace)
2) The speed of the target (The farther away, the slower the aircraft appears to be moving)

Even with tracer bullets, the M-2 gunners were consistently shooting under and behind the target drone.

[Kagemusha]

57. Your experiences reflect my understanding well.

But helicopters have this tendency to stop and hover in one place. It's not something that other types of aircraft are capable of. Motionless, even dumb unguided RPG's have been known to bring helicopters down (i.e. Black Hawk Down).

Now if we changed the subject to, say, unarmored police cruisers, the issue gets muddled a bit.

[Squatch]

58. Don't you think it reasonable to assume that police pilots

realize that their helicopters might be targets and it's in their best interests NOT to hover, but to keep moving? These helicopters are equipped with extremely advanced sensors that are designed to track moving targets EVEN WHEN the sensor platform (the helicopter) is moving.

A police helicopter, in a tactical situation, does not just "hover" like in the movies, but takes up an orbit to reduce the risk of drawing (aimed) fire.

[Kagemusha]

59. I don't think it's reasonable for pilots to assume everyone has a .50 cal

Though granted, only an utter and complete moron would hover in a tactical situation.

It's possible to say a .50 cal could bring down a helicopter without believing that this is likely. And that is my position.

[Squatch]

60. So could a well thrown rock.

LOL.

I think you and I are arguing the same point from slightly different angles.

[Kagemusha]

61. The .50 cal is slightly more likely to work though.

Slightly. :)

[benEzra]

68. True...

I think it's much easier to envision a helicopter being taken down by a .308 at relatively short range (100-200 yards) than a .50 at some unbelievable distance, though. If you look at the ballistics, it would literally be a miracle shot.

It is possible, though...just as it is possible that a rock lying on the ground will, through quantum effects, spontaneously disappear from ground level and reappear in the helicopter's gearbox. Not bloody likely, but possible...and police helicopters have been brought down by quantum tunneling rocks just as often as they have been brought down with .50 caliber target rifles... :D

[slackmaster]

65. Personal observation of San Diego PD helicopters

The SDPD has been using helos for decades. I've seen them operating over and near my neighborhood hundreds of times over the 17+ years I have lived in my present neighborhood.

I can't recall ever seeing one hover stationary, even for a moment. They are ALWAYS either transiting from one area to another, or circling.

From a rifleman's perspective I have seen them close enough to hit without much difficulty, but if I were inclined to do so I'd surely pick a weapon that can be readily swung into position and aimed, like an M1 Garand, rather than my 30-pound .50 BMG target rifle.

But that's just me. Maybe someone much stronger than I am might be able to shoulder a .50 and hit a helicopter at close range.

As for hitting one a mile away, forget about it. That's what heat-seeking missiles were invented for.

[Paladin]

62. Everybody Enjoying This Wholesome Discussion?

n/t

[Kagemusha]

63. There's a lot of ignorance out there about the issue.

People should have a few facts in hand when debating if the .50 cal rifle should be banned or not. It is a valid issue, and is relevant to a white supremacist's group's possession of one.

Mind you, the discussion seems over now.

[MrBenchley]

72. Which is why jeniuses like David Duke and Ted Nugent oppose a ban on them

(snicker)

[MrBenchley]

64. Always interesting to see how malignant the trigger happy are....

It sure is one "liberal" issue, all righty.

[diamondsndust]

4. ok, who's been looking in my closet???

[Historic NY]

6. What no partridge in a pear tree.........

Boot Boys......The 50 cal. gun is what the military uses when they want to get to real serious sniping. Its not your typical rifle, the NRA defends owning them for what purpose I do not know. Its not pretty if a human is hit by one.

[Minnesota_Lib]

7. I guess the Free Republic website's membership just thinned out somewhat..

[uppityperson]

8. Timothy McVeigh was a white boy too.

I have not been hassled by any male except white. I have only been robbed by a white boy. I have only been beat up by a white boy. I am white too, by the way. If these guys had near/middle eastern names, it would have been all over the media. Scary white boys.

[slackmaster]

12. It's just a drug dealer gang bust

...The group reportedly called itself AZ 88 Boot Boys...

They're going to be known as the "AZ 88 Butt Boys" in prison.

:hide:

Nothing to see here, please move on.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

14. How about this kid who killed two of our local police officers?

How come this family's stash isn't causing more of a national outrage, especially when they knew their son was mentally ill, and yet they had a cache for firearms in the house, readily available to the kid - who used them to kill two Fairfax County, Virginia police officers, gunning them down like targets as they walked out of their police station at a shift change?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/22/AR2006052201633_pf.html

What? Is it OK for suburban white middle-class families to keep AK-47s where their sick son can get his hands on them and use them to murder?

I guess it is.

Thanks for letting the Brady Bill expire, Fuckface.

[Historic NY]

15. I was at the funeral in Fairfax........

I was sorry to hear the other officer died the week I came back home.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

20. He hung in there for 8 or 9 days

Jesus, I cried when I heard he died. I really thought he'd make it. Massive organ failure, all at once.

What a warrior.

I had just had a terrible thing happen and it was in the Fairfax jurisdiction - a couple of months ago - and those police officers were so wonderful - I mean, above and beyond, to the poiint of three of the hugging me as we left the scene, and then calling me a few days later to make sure I was all right - that I had just written a letter to the Chief about them the day the shootings took place.

All you can do is cry. Two absolutely great people gone because of a sick boy, and no matter what Bob Horan says, I think the parents really should be prosecuted for having those guns available in that house, knowing the kid's condition.

Who the hell needs to own an AK-47, I ask you?

[-..__...]

23. Where in that article is there any mention of "AK-47s"?

And the Brady Bill expired? That's news to me.

I'll have to inform my local gun shop of that the next time they submit a NICs check on my purcahse.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

24. If it's news to you, this might help you to stay up-to-date:

http://www.awbansunset.com/

The article in my paper mentioned an AK-47. I can't be certain that the online version did, but, yeah, there was an AK-47 in the house when the kid went home to get the guns. In fact, that's one of the guns he used to kill the police officers, as I recall. Just sprayed the area outside the station.

[slackmaster]

29. AW ban was not the Brady Law

The Brady Law requires background checks on all retail sales of firearms by licensed gun dealers. It's still the law.

And the AW ban did not stop the sale of semiautomatic variants of the AK-47, only ones with certain features. The publicity probably increased the number of semiautomatic AKs in circulation.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

43. Oh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I stand corrected. It's been a long day, and when I see Sarah Brady say, as she did elsewhere, "Thanks for letting the law expire" to Fuckface, I just assumed it was the Brady Bill.

I abhor guns, and think people who need to own them have something wrong with them, but, that's just me. Anyone who feels the need to own an AK-47 has serious problems. That's what I think, and that's what I've always thought - losing two loved ones to people with guns certainly didn't do anything to change my thinking.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[slackmaster]

54. Brady is a good law IMO; AW ban was worse than useless

...losing two loved ones to people with guns certainly didn't do anything to change my thinking.

I'm sorry to hear about your losses Leftie.

[-..__...]

31. Ahhh, do you realize the AWB and the Brady Bill...

are two entirely different things?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

44. No, I didn't, and

I thanked the poster below who cleared that up for me.

Any way you cut it, guns are for idiots, as far as I'm concerned, but my casual - and erroneous - reading of the news that lead me to that link - a quote from Sarah Brady - left me with the wrong conclusion.

I stand corrected, and my apologies.

All guns should be illegal. That's what I think. They're just not necessary.

[-..__...]

48. There's an awful lot of idiots in this country then.

Estimates from both sides put it at anywhere from 60-80 million gun owners in this country.
If even half of them vote, that's an awful lot of voters to alienate with your suggestion that
"all guns should be illegal".

[OldLeftieLawyer]

49. That wasn't my suggestion,

and I wasn't soliciting voters.

It was my opinion.

[sendero]

53. If making guns illegal..

... would make possession of them rare, you might have a point.

Pot is illegal, yet millions use it every day.

There are some "problems" that you cannot fix with a law.

[ShaneGR]

16. So, ummm, how are white people to be "supremacy" if they're on Meth?

Seriously, is an army of a few thousand wrecked underweight dope fiends going to take over the country soon?

Sometimes I just have to shake my head and sigh.

[bleedingheart]

32. I have a feeling they sold meth to buy their weapons....

so they dope up some people's kids so that later they can gun down other people's kids...

[Minnesota_Lib]

17. I wonder if this is the same Todd Streich that was convicted of rape in VT

"August 4, 1991 - A judge's decision not to tell members of a jury pool that CBS News was videotaping the trial they were going to hear has angered some lawyers and judges, the news media and some of the prospective jurors themselves. Eleven of the prospective jurors have now filed a formal complaint about the judge. A camera crew from CBS came to Burlington to videotape the trial of Todd Streich, a 25-year-old man accused of raping a woman at gunpoint two years ago. The jury found Mr. Streich guilty on July 18. The videotape is to be broadcast Aug. 9 on CBS's new program "Verdict," according to Al Briganti, the co-producer."

Not sure this is the same jerk, but this guy was 25 years old in 1991 which would put him at 40 this year--the same age as this white supremist.


http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/dna_deoxyribonucleic_acid/index.html?query=JURY%20SYSTEM&field=des&match=exact

http://dol.state.vt.us/gopher_root1/000000/supct/163/state_v_streich.91-335

[burythehatchet]

18. ...and who amongst us has not had

a youthful indiscretion

[Bucky]

36. It vuss all a yuutful indisgretchen...

I svear to Gott! Aren't ve all yust humanz?

[lpbk2713]

21. .... and a partri-i-idge in a pear tree....... n/t

(I just had to)

[Lexingtonian]

33. LOL! n/t

[Fridays Child]

22. Broadcasting news such as this doesn't well serve their corporate masters.

Only terrorism of the Middle Eastern variety is "newsworthy."

[Dora]

25. Westsiders, jeez. Glendale will never change.

The west side of Phoenix has always been a haven for white supremacists.

[Coexist]

27. delete -wrong place to respond.

[NoPasaran]

30. Shoot, a fellow could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas...

Shoot, a fellow could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff

[The Stranger]

34. The War on Terror is bigoted, racist, xenophobic and targets non-Whites

and non-"Christians" only.

There. Someone had to say it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Toys for little boys trying to convince themselves they're men.

[bobbieinok]

47. wasn't there a big gun find in TX a bit ago with NO MEDIA coverage????

[MisterP]

50. William Krar, his girlfriend, and others

Tyler, Tex., 500,000 rounds of ammo, and a BIG sodium cyanide bomb

[Jeffersons Ghost]

71. kick

:kick: