Woes with PETA

[SeveredMind]

I'm getting a bit tired of PETA.

Now, before you flame me into oblivion, hear me out.

I am against factory farming and the fur industry. I think cruelty to animals is wrong. But all this "free the animals" crap from PETA is getting irritating. Freeing a bunch of chickens is not going to help them. They are dumb animals that will just wander around and get hit by a truck. Showing people videos of animals being slaughtered is just going to make people angry at you for grossing them out. I agree with some of their philosophies, but eating meat is a choice that people can make for themselves, we don't need them constantly badgering people about their lifestyle choices.

I guess what annoys me the most is the "Why can't everyone just realize that we are right and they are wrong" is the same mentality that religious fundementalists have about gay marriage and that republicans have about the war in Iraq. Nothing is black and white, and I dislike organizations like PETA that put in such simple minded terms.

[YOY]

1. Both wings have their wackos

The right has their religious nuts, trigger happy freaks, and racists


We have PETA, conspiracy theorists, and anarchists

I definitely think we got a better deal...considering the alternative...

My main gripe is misinformation and horrible comparisons. Regarding the first, sorry, fish do not have feelings. Regarding the second, KFC is not the Nazi holocost. Making those assumptions is just wrong.

That being said, eat whatever the hell you want. Just don't make me eat it...

[Yollam]

20. KFC is not a Nazi holocaust, however...

The videos of KFC factory farm workers stomping and otherwise abusing poultry is real. It is a fact that KFC has some of the least human practices of any of the factory farming outfits. If PETA's agitation against KFC spurs them into changing their practices, as has been the case with some other companies, then it will alleviate some animal suffering and that cannot be a bad thing.

I say that as a meat eater, and NOT an animal activist. NOBODY should ever defend animal cruelty.

[KFC]

33. Personal attacks are against the rules

We need a lot of chickens and we treat them like racehorses. We do not allow cockfighting. However, if the chickens start pecking on me, I will take matters into my own hands.

[AlienGirl]

25. "fish do not have feelings"--How do you know?

What, exactly, do you mean by "feelings"? Do you mean emotions? They have all of the chemical and electrical apparatus necessary to feel, at the very least, pleasure and fear. Do you mean sensation? They have all of the chemical and electrical apparatus necessary to feel, at the very least, physical pleasure at touching something, and pain. Moreover, when they are in pain, their brains produce endorphins, just as other chordates' brains do. Not only that, if an irritant is injected into their lips, they will subsequently slow down their eating behavior--"pain-guarding" is the technical term for it, reluctance to use a body part that hurts.

Not only that, but fish are increasingly being seen to have relatively sophisticated social roles. If you take a goldfish from a small school and get him drunk on some alcohol in water then put him back with his school-mates, the other fish will swim next to him and prop him up until he becomes sober enough to swim correctly.

As a personal note, I had several fish who enjoyed being touched. One, a small rock bass, would swim into my hand when I put it in his aquarium and solicit "scritches" much as a cat might. I have also seen stingrays playing, puppy-like.

Whether you want to consider the emotions and sensations of fish ethically relevant is up to you, but recognize what is *there* before you decide to discount it entirely.

Tucker

[YOY]

26. Sorry, not buying it

[AlienGirl]

31. In other words, you "already know" so the science is irrelevant?

From http://www.grandin.com/welfare/fear.pain.stress.html :

2003 Update on pain in fish
Research by Lynne Sneddon at the Roslin Institute indicates that fish engage in true pain related behavior. Fish that had acetic acid injected into their lips engaged in more pain related behaviors such as rubbing their lips on the gravel and rocking compared to saline injected controls. There were no differences in swimming activity. Administering morphine reduced the pain related behaviors.
The author concludes that the pain related behaviors were not simple reflexes (Sneddon, 2003). Sneddon et al. states that the pain receptors in fish have the same properties as the receptors in mammals. The fish also engaged in true pain guarding behavior. Fish injected with acetic acid took significantly longer to start feeding compared to saline injected controls. These studies indicate that to insure a reasonable level of welfare providing pain relief should be considered for fish.

This excellent research study separated the variables of pain from fear by having a saline injected control. Further studies on long term chronic pain are needed.

Social learning (i.e. learning by observation) in fish: http://grimpeur.tamu.edu/pipermail/animals/attachments/20030923/d778e860/FishFisheries_Social_Learning_Review-0001.pdf

Flexible behavior in fish: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15255051&dopt=Abstract

News article about research on fish intelligence and social behavior: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/3189941.stm

Fish training: http://www.fish-school.com/

Mental mapping in fish and fish memory, from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/03/nfish03.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/10/03/ixhome.html :

Dr Theresa Burt de Perera made the discovery using blind Mexican cave fish, which rely on subtle changes in pressure to detect the presence of objects around them.

In experiments, Dr Burt de Perera found that the fish did more than merely avoid bumping into objects in their tank. They built a detailed map of their surroundings, memorising the obstacles in them within a few hours. Once stored in their brains, the fish used their "mental map" to spot changes in the obstacles around them - a feat that defeats hamsters.
........................
Laboratory tests on other fish have found that they can store memories for many months, confounding the belief that they forget everything after a few seconds.

Dr Culum Brown at the University of Edinburgh has found that Australian crimson spotted rainbowfish, which learnt to escape from a net in their tank, remembered how they did it 11 months later. This is equivalent to a human recalling a lesson learnt 40 years ago.

The more we learn about how the brain works, the more old beliefs about size, shape, and function of structures fall by the wayside. Not long ago, birds, who do not have a cerebral cortex, were assumed to be instinct-machines with very little in the way of brain-power. The thinking went, "A cerebral cortes is the part of the brain that learns and reasons; birds lack this; therefore birds do not reason or learn." As it turns out, birds simply use different structures. Now the very names of parts of the avian brain have been changed to reflect this new awareness. (Here's an article about that: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52566-2005Jan31.html )

It is, of course, still your choice to decide whether the sensations or emotions of fish are ethically relevant to you. You're the decider.

Tucker

[evirus]

39. should feelings matter?

what if something is living but dosn't have feelings? isn't it just as cruel to tear a head of lettace to peices just because you like to descriminate agents the "non-feelers" when you eat?

[livinginphotographs]

41. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I'm sorry. Seriously. I didn't mean to....


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Oh wait. Oh my god. You were serious....?

[evirus]

45. actualy a little from both

i was a little bit joking and a little bit serious, it seems rather rediculas to have feelings as a key argument in your food preference. isn't that the same as saying you like hockey because theres less black players?

[AlienGirl]

50. Something without sensation has no interest in not being hurt

So, no.

Tucker

[deaniac21]

52. I can go you one further. For two years I've had a rainbow

trout that has made friends with two of my cats. Animals are so much more than a lot of people think!

[bee]

36. You know, youre right. Theres little more irritating than

people going around spreading misinformation. Especially when theyre all condescending about it.

And since you feel that way, You ~might~ want to catch yourself up on a little science.


Wednesday, 30 April, 2003
Fish do feel pain, scientists say

The first conclusive evidence of pain perception in fish is said to have been found by UK scientists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2983045.stm



on edit: I see aliengirl already has a handle on trying to educate you. my bad.

[YOY]

37. Yes, My one sentence said all that I know about science

:eyes:

and aliengirl , although I am sure has the best of intentions, was talking about petting a fish...which I did not buy.

Sorry, I am sure that they have limited capacity as stated in the article, but once you've found the absolute absurdity of assigning anthropomorphic attributes to animals you would disagree with the vast assumption that fish have the emotional capacity to stop me from eating their tasty flesh...

Unless you're with Disney marketing...

[AlienGirl]

51. You don't have to believe my anecdote, even though it's true

What is absurd is believing that language is required for emotion, or that the great motivators of life (pain, pleasure, fear, aggression) should be only felt by beings with a cerebral cortex.

Tucker

[movonne]

2. I think you are trying kid us..It seems that I just read another one

of you other postings..

[SeveredMind]

5. huh?

No, I'm serious. (and yes, I am quite liberal)

[Ioo]

3. I have Always thought PETA does a far better job pissing people off

than they ever do saving animals.

I have 3 pound cats, and 2 pound puppies.

I also think that chicken is yummy as all get out.

[HornBuckler]

28. Yeah, I like chicken

Especially Popeye's

So much better than KFC it's disturbing.....

I think some of you Vegans might change your mind after some spicy Popeye's


:)

just kidding

do what you want - but Popeye's is damn tasty!

[LeftyMom]

4. Nobody's saying to turn them out and let them run feral.

PETA doesn't even advocate that for cats and other animals somewhat capable of managing on thier own, let alone animals like chickens who can't. Chickens have been removed from cages and sent to sanctuaries by others within the AR movement though.

PETA's role is to provide information about the cruelty inherent in a flesh-based diet. What you do with that information is up to you.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. They Are Quite A Bit Over The Top.

But I must also say that I so rarely hear anything from them, and never met one person affiliated with them, so they really don't have any impact on me anyway.



On Edit: Welcome To DU!

[Yollam]

21. The one campaign they did that bugged me was "Got Pus?"

They put stickers on all the milk bottles in my supermarket in SF that read "Got Pus? Milk does, as well as blood and hair."

It was so disgusting. I don't know how much truth is in that, but there has to be a better way of letting people know your side than that.

[Synnical]

7. PETA does a great job of getting publicity and

bringing animal abuse issues into the news. I thank them for that. Truly.

They're over the top. But I "get" the marketing campaigns.

I love PETA and their guerrilla marketing tactics, and I'm not being sarcastic, and I'm not a vegetarian - only because I don't eat "green things" - just don't like the taste/texture.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

On edit: Welcome to DU as previous poster just reminded me! :hi:

[madrchsod]

8. sometimes i wonder just how intelligent some of them are

someone released hundreds of mink in the north eastern illinois area and most of the released animals were either run over or died within days of sarvation.mink are very nasty little animals that would have killed alot of birds and game birds if they had gone wild. they really don`t have any natural predators to thin their population.
they have done alot of good but sometimes they do not use common sense

[kestrel91316]

9. (putting on my helmet and goggles)...............

:popcorn:

[crispini]

10. Yeah!

:popcorn: This should be good!

[diamondsndust]

11. Why do they hate meat??

PETA = People Eating Tasty Animals :rofl:

:popcorn:

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. Who's gonna flame you

You'll get 87% aproval on DU for PETA-hating. It's practically the national pasttime here. It's not controversial at all to hate PETA on this board. Saying anything nice about PETA - that would be rebellious and likely get you flamed. But hating on PETA? Dime a dozen.

[bee]

13. Yeah.

People should never ever be subject to witnessing the torture, brutal, and inhumane treatment of animals. Just because the majority of meat-eaters shell out good money to pay for all that torture, doesnt mean they want to SEE it. Geez. I mean hey, if it were ME paying some company to treat living things like that... I sure as hell wouldnt want to watch it either. Because if I DID watch, I might have to stop and take a good hard look at the industry Im supporting and what it says about me as a person. Oh but wait, why do THAT when I could just twist the whole thing and act like PETA is attacking ME personally. All Id be doing is supporting the most inhumane industry in the world. Damn it, if I want to pay to have animals tortured its MY CHOICE! LALALALALALALALALA, animals that have no personal value to me are meat, meat has no feelings LALALALALALALALALA. See no evil. Wheeeeee~
Gotta love it. :eyes:

[lindisfarne]

14. PETa has been known to euthanize animals too - when they don't

have space. IF they would practice what they preach, i'd have more respect.

Speaking out by PETa against "freeing animnals" raids would be a good start - these animals either slowly die of starvation because they don't know how to survive, get hit by cars, or are killed by predators. None of these are better deaths.

[yewberry]

15. You are mistaken.

PETA doesn't euthanize "when they don't have space." PETA isn't a shelter organization. They DO offer euthanization services to other organizations which don't have the resources to manage them themselves.

And, while I'm no authority on PETA, I don't believe they advocate "freeing" animals which are not able to live in the wild. I'm not suggesting that it hasn't happened, but PETA doesn't advocate this.

[lindisfarne]

22. Some PETA groups do, and they have euthanized animals they promised

a vet they would find a home for.

PETA destroys its own credibility as well as that of other organizations when it acts in a hypocritical manner. (I support the use of euthanasia if the alternative is the animal being homeless on the street - although I'd like reality to be otherwise, it's not. Somehow, in the UK, they manage to kill far fewer animals (even adjusted for population differences) than we do - it says a lot about "humanity" in the US.)

This case below isn't an isolated example; see AP report (way below)
=================
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0725/p11s02-lire.html
In the middle of the controversy, not surprisingly, is PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), a group whose in-your-face protests have sometimes flirted with illegality. Two PETA workers, employees at the group's headquarters in Norfolk, Va., were arrested last month on animal-cruelty charges, alleged to have euthanized dogs and cats they had picked up from area shelters. Police in Ahoskie, N.C. - just over the state line - say they watched the two move animals' bodies from a PETA van to a dumpster.

The case has stirred outrage among some local officials and animal-rights groups, who say they had entrusted PETA to find homes for the dogs and cats - not to euthanize them within the hour. PETA, for its part, has not commented on the June 15 arrests specifically, but it is not alone in arguing that euthanasia is more humane than conditions in overcrowded shelters.
<snip>
"One side is arguing for the ethical, philosophical concept that an animal deserves not to be euthanized just because at that particular moment it is unwanted," says Annette Rauch at the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University. "But every shelter has limited space, so when they adopt no-kill, they fill up. That leads us to the next question: What happens to the animals that get turned away?"
<snip>
Veterinarian Patrick Proctor of Ahoskie Animal Hospital, who had released a cat and two kittens to the PETA workers, says Hinkle told him they would be adopted. The hospital no longer entrusts its orphaned animals to PETA representatives, he says.

====================================================
Did you think PETA had a no-kill policy?
PETA euthanized more than 1,000 animals last year

By MATTHEW BARAKAT - © 2000, Associated Press

RICHMOND -- It may seem surprising that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals -- a group that often comes to the defense of rats -- euthanized more than 1,300 cats and dogs last year.

But PETA President Ingrid Newkirk says it was the only humane thing to do.

Last year, the Norfolk-based animal-rights group took in 2,103 companion animals. It was able to find homes for 386, and put down 1,325. (Transfers and reclamations by owners accounted for most of the rest of the animals PETA took in.)

"It is a totally rotten business, but sometimes the only kind option for some animals is to put them to sleep forever," Newkirk said. ``I don't think a dog living in a cage walking in circles for the rest of its life in a dog prison is a swell thing."

While several dozen shelters in Virginia have adopted a no-kill philosophy, PETA has not.

[flvegan]

58. Specifically

1. Which PETA groups?

2. Promised, according to whom?

3. No-kill is a farce in this situation. PETA may well be left to look like the bad guy. If a dog is to be euthanized, better a humane death than a bullet in the head...gas chamber...right? If one disagrees, I hope one would also write a letter to his/her local humane society/spca. Those VA shelters...ask them HOW, specifically, they adopted this "no-kill philosophy" and get back to us.

[ForrestGump]

16. PETA tend to be like Greenpeace and EarthFirst, et al:

extremists. They have their better moments, such organizations, but are very often more detrimental to their cause than they are helpful. They also tend to drive away people who might otherwise be educated and swayed, or make outright foes of them. Counterproductive.

In my own area of career expertise, I've seen how some of the more extreme environmental groups not only make dubious contributions in such a (negative) manner but how they really are, often, essentially clueless about the real mechanics of the systems they purport to preserve or restore. Dangerous dilettants, driving do-gooders demographics down (I like alliteration, though I think I sound too much like the narrator dude form the '60s Batman TV series here).

[NMMNG]

17. Oh my

Showing people videos of animals being slaughtered is just going to make people angry at you for grossing them out.

PETA is merely providing the videos, not forcing people to watch them. If people watch and the cognitive dissonance is to much for them to bear, that is not PETA's fault.


edit for missing word

[Yollam]

18. Why would you get flamed into oblivion?

Were you under the impression that PETA had some huge following here? They don't. Most DUer's are more or less where you are on "animal rights", and even the PETA supporters here will generally concede that there are times when PETA and ALF extremists have gone overboard to the detriment of the broader cause.


As for "showing videos of animals being slaughtered" - I am a meat-eater, and I am glad to have seen those videos. I don't take the flesh on my plate lightly because of it. I'm not ready to give up meat, but I sure as hell eat less of it and make a point of never wasting it because I am keenly aware that an animal died to be my food. In fact, I think that the desire to have meat be neatly packed and never see how it came to be is immature, selfish and wrong.

Also, PETA has performed a public service by exposing abusive practices by KFC and other big food outfits. They are far from perfect, but their heart is basically in the right place. Most vegetarians are kind enough not to give me a major guilt trip over still eating meat, so I am inclined to forgive the occasional excesses of PETA in light of the good things they do. It seems to me that the one who has a black & white attitude about PETA is you.

[dysfunctional press]

19. PETA is a bunch of whacked-out morans...

on this planet, people are at the top of the food chain...if they don't like that, maybe they should search for a place to live where humans are a little lower on the pecking order.

me?
i'll happily continue to eat beef, fish, chicken, pork, and plenty of things with faces...my body is allergic to dietary starch, so flesh is a big part of my diet- and it's all guilt-free afaic.

[darkism]

23. Amen!

Many (not all, but many) adherents to the animal rights movement are extremist whackos that give the left a bad name - particularly PETA.

"Animals don't have rights. Yes, they should be treated 'humanely.' Yes, Tyson Foods and all the others that 'harvest' chickens are disgusting. But 'freeing' chickens from their factory farms is idiotic. They don't know how to survive in the wild and they're just going to get hit by a truck. And lay off carrying on about the milk, no matter how bad it is for you. You just look like a dumbass if you go on national TV, like PETA does, to argue that beer is better for the body than milk. That shit just makes me want to kick my dog."
-Michael Moore

[DoveTurnedHawk]

24. Extremists Suck

And that includes PETA.

DTH

[Karmadillo]

27. Damn right. These extremists who think it's OK to torture animals

are just too much. Of course, they need to rationalize their behavior by convincing themselves those who don't follow in their bloody footsteps are whackos, but that's to be expected, I guess. There's nothing extremist about the animal welfare proposals below:

http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/animals.asp

Chickens are probably the most abused animals on the face of the planet—they are treated in ways that would warrant felony cruelty-to-animals charges were they dogs, cats, or even cows or pigs. Because federal laws exempt chickens from the Animal Welfare and Humane Slaughter acts, sadistic and routine cruelty go unpunished, and it is up to companies like KFC to ensure that the chickens who end up in their buckets and boxes are not grossly abused. KFC has ignored this responsibility almost entirely, and its suppliers continue to abuse chickens—who are remarkable animals with distinct personalities, social orders, systems of communication, and intelligence as advanced as that of many other animals—in ways that would be illegal if dogs and cats were the victims.

KFC’s breeding birds have their sensitive beaks seared off with hot blades soon after they are born. "Broilers," or chickens raised for their flesh, are bred and drugged in order to make them gain weight quickly, which often causes their hearts and lungs to fail and their legs to become crippled under their own heavy bodies. Archaic slaughter methods and faulty machinery, combined with an absence of laws to protect chickens, cause millions of them to be scalded alive in feather-removal tanks or have their throats slit while they are still conscious.

PETA’s recommended animal welfare program was developed by members of KFC’s own animal welfare board and sent to KFC’s chief operating officer on March 11, 2005. KFC has yet to adopt any of the recommendations. Several members of KFC's animal welfare panel have resigned, after having been used by the company as a shield for years, during which time none of their (and PETA's) recommendations were adopted

The following is a basic outline of PETA's recommended animal welfare program for KFC:

• Adopt the “Animal Care Standards” program. This program creates guidelines to protect chickens on factory farms and covers issues such as ammonia concentration, lighting conditions, and living space in chicken sheds. It also prohibits intentional starvation of breeding birds and states that birds must be provided with mental and physical stimulation.

• Replace electrical stunning and throat-slitting with controlled-atmosphere killing. Experts agree that controlled-atmosphere killing causes much less suffering than KFC’s present method of snapping chickens’ legs into metal shackles and slitting their throats, often while they are still conscious.

• Switch to less cruel mechanized chicken gathering. Studies have shown that using manual methods results in four times as many broken legs, more than eight times as much bruising, and increased stress on the chickens.

• Breed for health rather than forcing rapid growth, and stop feeding drugs to chickens. Breed leaner, healthier, less aggressive birds instead of breeding the biggest, fattest birds possible, and stop feeding chickens antibiotics and other drugs for nontherapeutic purposes.

• Make all welfare standards transparent and verifiable. Any meaningful animal welfare program must be verified by announced and unannounced independent third-party audits, the guidelines for and results of which must be made available to the public through KFC’s Web site.

View the recommendations in their entirety, as they were sent to KFC’s Chief Operating Officer, Harvey Brownlee on March 11, 2005.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

30. Try Again. No One Supports Animal Cruelty.

And practically no one supports PETA's extremism.

DTH

[Karmadillo]

34. LOL. No one supports animal cruelty?

Carnivore extremists say the darnedest things.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

35. People Like Meat

And that ain't gonna change. If killing any animal equals cruelty to you, then I'm afraid you're in for a rather frustrating existence in this society.

DTH

[Karmadillo]

38. Of course extremist carnivores like to eat meat.

That's why they eat it. Just because extremists like doing what they do doesn't make them any less extreme or justify the unspeakable cruelty associated with the practice.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

43. You Might Want to Look Up Extremist

It means "far beyond the norm" and since meat eaters are the norm in this society and many others, I'm afraid PETA and their ludicrous, wackjob tactics will remain the extremists.

DTH

[Karmadillo]

44. Actually, I doubt extremist carnivores who support animal

cruelty are the norm. Most carnivores are probably unaware of the cruelty that goes into their meat-based diet. If support for animal cruelty were the norm, corporate sadists wouldn't need to resort to Happy Cow ads or tell us how those Happy Cows want people to "eat mor chikin." If the corporate owned media presented accurate reports of slaughterhouse conditions (say, with the frequency and depth of coverage given to a missing young woman in Aruba) and if children were informed how animals are mistreated by extremist carnivores, the vast majority of people would demand immediate reform. It's only because extremist carnivores control the debate and work endlessly to smear the reasonable reform efforts of groups like PETA that their minority position in favor of animal cruelty continues to prevail.

Simply look at your non-response to PETA's proposals in post #27 as an example of the process at work. Given the opportunity to engage in a reasonable debate, you chose to resort to false claims of majority status for carnivore extremists while smearing those who oppose your position as being ludicrous and whack jobs. If PETA's proposals are extremist, why don't you explain why?

[Odin2005]

48. I eat meat, I am not an "extremist carnivore"

People like to eat meat because our cave-men ancestors at meat to survivie in the dry season/winter. no amount of moral indignation will stop the vast majority of people from eating meat. We are genetically programmed to like meat, especially fatty meat. Vegan Fundimentalists who try to reason otherwise need to read a text on human evolution, eating meat was needed for our brains to get so big.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

53. You Only Need to Read Your Laughable Post

To confirm that you are, in fact, an extremist on this.

Animals ain't people. And I'm happy as a meat eater. I support humane methods of slaughter but I'm not interested in becoming a vegetarian just because people like you lack perspective.

DTH

[Karmadillo]

55. And I thought you could do better.

My mistake. If you had actually read my post, you would have seen I wasn't advocating you become a vegetarian. And it's extremist to want the corporate media to accurately inform people of the slaughterhouse conditions animals face? Wow. And why so reluctant to respond to the PETA proposals in post #27? I though PETA was an extremist group that sucked. Surely you should be able to use their proposals to support your position. Waiting...

[Avalux]

29. PETA is a fringe organization; just like any other.

That said though; sometimes people need to be made aware of the cruelty animals endure in factory farms so that we can consume their meat. Awareness is a good thing.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SOS]

40. PETA thread # 525

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..............
:boring:

[The Stranger]

42. Have you ever spoken with anyone from PETA? Who? When?

Do you know everything that PETA is involved in? I'm asking about specifics. Not what you read about in the media.

Or is all you know about PETA the "free the animals crap" that has been demonized in the media?

It is odd that if you truly are "against factory farming and the fur industry" that you would take the time and go to the trouble to attack a group that is most "against factory farming and the fur industry." Don't you think this is odd too?

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[warrens]

47. We need a PETA, excesses and all

I report on the meat industry. PETA keeps them honest. They're scared to death of them, and that is a good thing. Don't sweat the excesses; they hit enough home runs to have legitimacy.

[Odin2005]

49. Thats like saying eco-terrorists and men-haters are a good thing.

Eco-terrorists and men-haters give enviromentalism and feminism bad names, same with PETA and mnimal rights.

[BrklynLiberal]

54. What are "men-haters"?

[flvegan]

56. Then don't listen to them.

Problem solved.

You're welcome.

[Cetacea]

57. we should ask the dolphins their opinion

oh wait, we are too stupid to figure out their language. (they have no problems figuring ours out though)

[AlienGirl]

59. Dolphins can be real jerks, so watch which ones you listen to!

Every so often dolphins will massacre porpoises for no apparent reason. Male dolphins will sometimes gang-rape other dolphins, or turn over a stingray and attempt to have sex with it, killing the ray in the process. Dolphins sometimes even head-butt humans without provocation, though for the most part they are curious and pleasantly-disposed toward humans.

They haven't quite figured out human language; my guess is that it's because dolphin words change according to things like body position and movement, and the idea of a static language where words always and invariably mean the same thing is foreign to them. Also, they don't seem to use pronouns, at all.

Tucker

[Cetacea]

60. Well, they have their days too..

...but I doubt that they do anything for no apparent reason.
No dolphin has ever attacked a human is a serious manner until the commercial seaqariums came into vogue. Every once in a while, a dolphin will "lose it" just like you would if you were a genius forced to do circus tricks, in confinement. And dolphins have saved many a human throughtout the course of history. As far as their sexuality is concerned, many are bisexual and overly playful/aggresive. They mostly live in perfect harmony with each other and their environment, and have done so since we were tree shrews...
We have much to learn from them as they live in nearly perfect community. And they have been doing this stuff for 40 million years, at least. I have it from very reliable sources that there is "no doubt that they are much smarter than humans". But my point is that we are just beginning to understand how much other species think, feel, and love.