FAIR TAX event fills arena to overflowing hours before its scheduled start

[flashdebadge]

Thousands were turned away in Atlanta as they showed up expecting to get in but the fire marshall had already closed the event due to overflow crowds. The crowd heard talks show hosts and politicians, including WSB's Neal Boortz, Sean Hannity, Clark Howard and Congressman John Linder call for the end of the federal income tax. Supporters say it should be replaced by a 23 percent national sales tax.

snip.



I am for the fair tax as is Clark Howard who is a nationally syndicated consumer advocate. This would take the power out of the hands of the politicians and put it in ours. Although I disagree with the politics of these individuals, the fair-tax is one that I agree with.

[papau]

1. Bad math 23% is really 30+ % - and 55+% needed to balance budget

55% just replaces current tax. -

tax transfer to middle class from rich is huge -

so why are you for this change?

[flashdebadge]

11. This myth of 30% is dispelled in the book by boortz. READ IT.

[LostinVA]

61. Sorry, there's no way I'll use Boortz as a Progressive tax authority

Mainly because he's not, and never will be. So, why do you agree with him then?

[izzybeans]

75. I'll give an equally vague answer to the contents of the book

Boortz dispells no myths in that book, he creates them.

You seem to take much on faith here. I'm sorry you've been misled.

[annabanana]

2. a 23% sales tax is terribly regressive..

The rich, to lessen their tax burden can forgo something that they didn't really need to start with. The poor will have to do without something that they desperately need.

How about taxing non-wage income at the same rates as wage income?

[flashdebadge]

13. Fascinating. I pay more than that now. I make only 40 grand.

[eShirl]

14. now I begin to understand your enthusiasm for this plan. n/t

[flashdebadge]

19. yea 40 grand is a ton! I'm filthy rich.

[eShirl]

21. you support a plan which you believe will lower your taxes

big surprise there

[LostinVA]

67. That's why you should be against this

Why should you pay the same as someone making millions? Or even $500,000? And why should someone making $20,000 pay the same as you? They shouldn't. Regressive.

[newportdadde]

47. Your paying over 23%, is that just Federal or Fica in that as well.

I make in the 50s, my FEDERAL RATE was not all that high at all, I'm not talking about FICA in there or state taxes or property taxes etc.

[izzybeans]

76. Watch your savings rate diminish even more as a consequence.

[izzybeans]

83. There is a chapter in this book that deals with social security

The point of the chapter was to tell all the little wingnut minions that the "fair tax" is a way to cause the collapse of social security.

[Mika]

3. So, you want tax increase on the working poor.

Imagine making 15 to 20 thousand for a family and having a 23% tax rate, and then having the capital gains tax reduced to 0 for the wealthy.

How compassionate.



:puke:

[flashdebadge]

7. The poor don't pay income taxes now. Which is a good thing.

And under the fair tax plan they would actually receive checks.

[Mika]

18. Receive checks? How so?

I know that low incomes don't pay income taxes, but a high percentage of their income is used on survival purchases. A 23% sales tax is a huge increase for the poor/ working poor.

Please explain how under the "fair tax" plan they would actually receive checks.

[eShirl]

20. from the Fair Tax Fairy

it's in THE BOOK

[flashdebadge]

34. where do social security checks come from? The social security fairy?

[LostinVA]

73. They get the checks because they pay into the system

This "plan" won't be changing that.

Keep stretching, though -- it's great exercise.

[LostinVA]

59. The poor DO pay income taxes -- you're very mistaken there

And, what checks would they receive?

[RebelDawg]

38. those people would RECEIVE a check

from the government every month to off set the taxes they would pay on things they consume. They would in essence pay no taxes.

So whats the problem?

[Bridget Burke]

49. How would the government know what they would pay?

Or--would they need to save EVERY receipt?

[RebelDawg]

53. This is from

www.fairtax.org

How does the rebate work? All valid Social Security cardholders who are U.S. residents receive a monthly rebate equivalent to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services, also known as the poverty level expenditures. The rebate is paid in advance, in equal installments each month. The size of the rebate is determined by the Department of Health & Human Services’ poverty level guideline multiplied by the tax rate. This is a well-accepted, long-used poverty-level calculation that includes food, clothing, shelter, transportation, medical care, etc. See chart in Figure 1 below.

[LostinVA]

82. Please tell all of us why we should listen to anything "Fair Tax" says?

They are NOT a Progressive organization. They are in favor of a regressive tax plan that punishes the poor and middle class rewards the upper class.

Sorry, I don't make conservative pundits my source.

And, you REALLY think people would get checks? REALLY? HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Good try, though...

Welcome to DU. Have fun.

[rodeodance]

4. how can they say a tax (whatever amount) is Fair for people on fixed

incomes.

[flashdebadge]

5. HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK?

If you read the book on the fair tax plan, you would have the answers to your questions.

[Mika]

8. Why not give us some thumbnail sketch answers?

If you know the answers then please clue us in.

[eShirl]

12. What book?

Did I miss where you mentioned a book?

[izzybeans]

30. There is a book. I thought it was satire at first but my rightwing

uncle gave it to me to read this Christmas. I gave it a shot and after discussing it we both decided these men are either full of shit or have no concept of transaction cost.

[izzybeans]

26. I've read the book front to back.

The entire book is spent dodging those questions. The question of regressiveness is skipped entirely even though they claim in the beginning that they will deal with it. The rest is just an attack on the New Deal.

This takes power out of the hands of the people and places it squarely onto commercial enterprises. You are taxed 23% everytime you buy something and if you consider the commmidity chain that something had to follow in order to be produced each transaction cost which is now increased by that 23%, which inflates the price of goods, despite their claims to the contrary.

Their problem could be solved by modernizing the IRS and eliminating tax filing day.

Never trust a book that starts by misquoting Marx. It is just cold-war propaganda in disguise.

Beyond the half-baked economic theory there is a matter of process to deal with and that is both a repeal of an amendment and the amendment process itself. The constitution has to be altered for this to ever take place.

Even if that were possible, then it is buyer beware. The Dodo birds lining up in Atlanta are lining up for further economic decline, for some good ol' fashion survival of the fittest. Then whose going to fund their wars of conquest? We won't have any more money in the treasury to fund the paranoid android machine we send like ants marching to the next big egomaniacal military campaign.

[clu]

45. i haven't read the book

but this wikipedia article covers a bit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_tax

[acmejack]

6. We showed you the error of your ways the last time you came here

and posted this kind of crap about the allegedly FAIR Tax. Why won't you learn? Are you willfully ignorant or do you have an agenda?

[flashdebadge]

10. Oh come on. sigh...

[acmejack]

15. did you stamp your foot and toss your little head when you typed that?

Support your points, you have not answered a single critics point with a single solitary fact. Read the book doesn't cut it. Are you Neil Boortz?

[flashdebadge]

17. heheheh

[hatrack]

37. An eloquent, incisive response from Neal Boortz's #1 fan

Have a nice day.

[eShirl]

9. "take the power out of the hands of the politicians and put it in ours"

More like takes the tax burden off the backs of the rich and puts it on ours.

[flashdebadge]

16. How can it burden the poor if they don't pay taxes under this plan?

They will get checks for crying out loud.

[Yollam]

25. Look who is proposing the plan.

When have they EVER done ANYTHING but shift the tax burden downward?

Why would right-wing billionaires be in favor of this if not to cut their own taxes and shift the burden downward?

You're not that gullible, are you?

[SammyWinstonJack]

64. Apparently he/she is VERY gullible. nt

[acmejack]

27. Fair Tax, Bad Tax: The National Sales Tax's Insidious Influence

And the winner of this year's prize for Worst Idea in a Serious Public Policy Debate: the Fair Tax. In all likelihood, this plan for a national retail sales tax has already exhausted its 15 minutes of fame. Sometime later this summer, President Bush's commission on federal tax reform will probably put it out of its misery.

But before the Fair Tax disappears from serious discussion -- well, the discussion was never all that serious to begin with, at least among Fair Tax supporters -- let's take a minute to consider the worst aspect of this very bad idea.

First, though, we have to sort through an embarrassment of riches: How can we identify the worst quality of a tax that has so many? As numerous critics have pointed out, the Fair Tax would raise too little revenue and prompt too much evasion. Its popularity depends on unreasonable assumptions and misleading descriptions. It would never work as advertised -- a fact that many of its supporters either choose to ignore or secretly celebrate.

Still, one aspect of the Fair Tax deserves special opprobrium: the damage it does to public debate. By focusing popular attention on a lame idea, it distracts attention from serious alternatives. In particular, it muddies debate over the proper base for federal taxation, obscuring discussion of federal consumption taxes behind a particularly facile version of the same idea.

http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/readings.nsf/cf7c9c870b600b9585256df80075b9dd/cfbe9de4a695d74f85257014004f1184?OpenDocument

[eShirl]

29. would you care to elaborate on this national sales tax scheme then?

beyond "read the book! it's in the book!"

[izzybeans]

35. With what money?

The deal is everyone pays 23% as outlined in this book you mention.

This is an increase in the tax burden. Under current tax code those at a certain level pay nearly 100% less than that.

So now they are not only paying a higher price for goods but they are now paying 100% more in taxes on consumables, each time they go to the store.

[MadHound]

72. It is putting the biggest tax burden on the lower and middle class

While giving the rich another tax break. I'm not poor, I'm officially middle class, though it is increasingly feeling less and less like that. This will hurt me hard, being as that I received money back from the IRS for the past few years. This will be a 23% sales tax on top of the 8% state and local tax that I pay, and worse when you consider that gasoline is already running an 18% sales tax.

This is also another boon for the corporations. They can finally fore go that five percent income tax that most of them pay, and will pass the sales tax price on to the consumer. Ooo, let's double screw the poor and the middle class.

As far as those checks the poor will be getting monthly, that still doesn't make up for the fact that at the time, the poor, those who can least afford it, will be forced into spending an extra 23% that they don't have. Sure, they'll get that check at the beginning of the month, but that doesn't do you much good if you die of starvation while waiting for the check to comoe. And besides, how damn expenesive is that bueracracy cutting those checks going to be? How are they going to figure out how much each person recieves monthly? Oh, yeah, I suppose the poor will be required to give up even more information, sacrifice more of their privacy to recieve that check. How wonderful is that, more class warfare. If you're rich you'll get a tax break and keep your privacy. If you're middle class, the budget is going to be balanced on your back, if your poor, you're going to have to make those dollars stretch even further and you have to sacrifice your privacy. Comapassionate conservatism in action:eyes:

Look friend, it has been shown time and again by many different economists, Nobel laureates included, that a flat tax is a regressive tax, that it benefits the rich inordinately, and the the middle class and the poor will suffer. That fact that you are continuing to push this unfair, unjust tax simply shows where your priorities are, and they're certainly not with the well being of your fellow citizens. How selfish of you, how very fucking selfish.

[RebelDawg]

28. Every month those that qualify IE "poor" people

would receive a check from the government that would off set what they consume. So in essence they would not be paying ANY taxes. Again, if you make under a ceartain income you receive a check from the government.

But dont let facts get in your way.

[eShirl]

36. oh, you must have read THE BOOK.

Maybe you can help the OP explain to us what is in it.

[RebelDawg]

44. Its a long book with lots of info

what is it you want answered?

www.fairtax.org is a good place to start as well.

[izzybeans]

39. With what money?

This is a sales pitch not a plan put into practice. So there are really no facts here, just pie in the sky propaganda.

[RebelDawg]

46. With the money everyone else

pays in consumption taxes. The only pie in the sky is not having your facts on an issue.

Why wouldn't we liberals want a larger tax on CONSUMPTION?

[Bridget Burke]

57. Consumption feeds the economy.

Unlike the incredibly bloated salaries of executives--who outsource & kill employee benefits while running their companies into the ground.

And unlike the "investments" that support the super rich who never worked a day in their lives.

[RebelDawg]

65. Investing and savings

also help the economy and I think you would see consumption go up.

We don't disagree on executive salaries - but that is neither here or there.

[ima_sinnic]

52. oh, gee, just what we need: another bureaucratic mess

so mailing out checks every single month, year after year, to "poor people" isn't going to cost a hell of a lot in administrative costs?
How does one qualify to get on that list eligible to receive a check?
Would I have to keep books on myself to "prove" that I spent such & such every month? Do I have to apply, as though for welfare, for these checks? I'd have to go through that rigamarole of verifying my income and having someone continually checking me out to make sure I wasn't lying or "underexaggerating"?
This is 25 tons of CRAP in a 5-pound can!!!
FYI, the very messy process of jumping through hoops to collect any kind of government "benefit" is more than dissuasive to many many people. Though I have been eligible for food stamps and other assistance in the past, I never could bring myself to subject myself to the humiliation, interrogation, and subservient process of applying and being one of their "clients." These "checks" would be just one more form of control by Central HQ (and these scumbags whine about how government is "too big"). Once we're on their list, they can use that as an excuse to keep tabs on us.

RUN LIKE HELL FROM THIS!! EXPOSE THE "FAIR" TAX SCAM FOR THE CON THAT IT IS!!

[RebelDawg]

56. Actually it would get rid of the IRS

therefore getting rid of bureacracy. The answer to your other question can be found at fairtax.org

snip

How does the rebate work? All valid Social Security cardholders who are U.S. residents receive a monthly rebate equivalent to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services, also known as the poverty level expenditures. The rebate is paid in advance, in equal installments each month. The size of the rebate is determined by the Department of Health & Human Services’ poverty level guideline multiplied by the tax rate. This is a well-accepted, long-used poverty-level calculation that includes food, clothing, shelter, transportation, medical care, etc. See chart in Figure 1 below.

[Yollam]

22. America had a fair tax in the 60's.

The top bracket paid 90% until JFK lowered it to 70% and it has gotten less and less fair as the decades have gone on.

They are using the misnomer "fair tax" as a euphemism for the anti-poor, anti-working-class, regressive "flat tax".

I will personally NEVER vote for ANY politician of ANY party that runs on a platform of a flat tax.


THe fact that Wingnuts like Boortz and Hannity were there tells you a lot.

[izzybeans]

42. Boortz wrote a book on the subject with a no-nothing congressman

also mentioned in the article.

It's quite silly, but obviously some yahoos take it seriously.

[Bridget Burke]

23. Where's the link?

Or--why don't you give a synopsis of the the book?

Many of us are NEVER going to read something by the Right Wing Radio guy who also wrote "The Terrible Truth About Liberals"

[depakid]

24. "fair tax" LOL More Orwellian jibberish

I guess you've never heard of declining marginal utility.

Basic economics- $5.00 to a single mother waitress is WORTH more than $5,000.00 to multi-millionaire.

Recognition of that fact is why we have (to some extent) a progressive tax system.

[RebelDawg]

33. What does that have to do with anything?

A single mom with a minimum wage job would pay NO TAXES under the fair tax. Whats the problem again?

[izzybeans]

40. Then why change it?

If there is nothing wrong. You've just described the current system.

[RebelDawg]

41. Because it would also lower the income burden

on the middle class. I beleive it would stimulate the economy as well.

[izzybeans]

51. Your belief doesn't square with simple

economics.

Transaction cost economics actually.

The tax burden not the income burden is the key, and the tax burden on the middle class is not any different in terms of % and would actually be higher when consumption is high. 23% on every consumable. Add it up. But don't start their begin at the beginning of the supply chain and move forward, because that 23% is added on each step of the way, until you get to market.
They claim the price of goods will change and then they make the claim that housing will see a deflation in cost (which would be a good thing), but think of the price of new houses when supplers are taking on an extra 23% each time they supply a distributor who then sells it to a manufacturer, who does the assembly, then sells it to a marketer, who then sells it to the consumer. In their plan 23% is added to the price of goods everytime it is exchanged up and down the commodity chain.

[RebelDawg]

62. You leave out all of

the imbedded taxes that you pay now on every good you purchase. These imbedded taxes would go away therefore keeping prices neutral if not lowering them.

[izzybeans]

69. You've just increased those embedded taxes.

[RebelDawg]

77. How is that?

Just cause you say it don't make it so...

[depakid]

70. The problem is people who don't understand economics

get suckered by these arguments.

Declining marginal utility is an abstract concept- it doesn't have anything specifically to do with our waitress. Money (like most any commodity) is worth less per unit the more of it that you have- or could get.

So, if you believe that the tax burden should be proportionate to the ability to pay- and you understand the principle of declining marginal utility- you'll see why the (LOL) "fair tax" is load of shit.

Not to mention there's some equity going on here- those who derive the most in terms of the "fruits of living" in this country- should pay higher rents- not just in raw numbers, but in equal terms of value.

[mccoyn]

31. A sales tax discourages the rich from spending.

If income is taxed, and sales aren't there is no disincentive to spending. When sales are taxed and income isn't it only encourages people to sit on their pile of money (after all its not taxed until its spent.) People sitting on a pile of money are what drags the economy down.

This isn't only bad for the class issues (which are terrible,) but it will drag on the economy and spread the classes farther apart.

[RebelDawg]

50. Couldn't disagree more

Prices would stay the same or go down because of all the imbedded taxes that you now pay on any given item would no longer go into the price of the good.

[ima_sinnic]

32. if Boortz is for it, run like hell

Neal Boortz is a vile, greedy, duplicitous, lying sack of shit.
He believes women should not be allowed to vote, or people "who benefit from government programs" (such as the poor) -- I e-mailed him a couple of times asking about wealthy CEOs who benefit from government policies, the true parasites of our times, shouldn't they be disenfranchised also, but of course he never responded to that.

A man called his show saying that his son had turned over his entire apartment to a poor family left homeless after Katrina and the family trashed the place and basically stole it from him (according to this caller, who was undoubtedly a fake, a plant)--"Wal, I taught him Christian values and ever'thing, but . . ." Boortz: "Now, admit it: deep down, weren't you happy this happened to your son?" (implying that the son needed a "lesson in reality"). Father: "Yes, yes, I was. But I have tried to teach him to care about others, but, but ..." (did the "father" ever see the contradictions in what he said--and how does someone feel HAPPY that their child has been hurt and abused??) I have been shocked by Boortz's callous and cruel attitude, his blatant selfishness and callow disregard for humans (it was Katrina victims' own fault what happened to them, after all). He is a whiney-assed gasbag who is worse than Limpballs, a sneering fake "Libertarian" asshole whom the Libertarians disinvited to their own convention.

The "Fair" Tax is a SCAM. Don't touch it with a 10-foot pole. Why would a selfish greed-head like Boortz EVER promote something unless it would benefit him, a well-paid radio gasbag who flies his own airplane (hey, Boortz, you PIG, how many Katrina victims did YOU rescue in your private plane? Instead of a ZERO like you and your wanker "president," little shit-stain commander bunnnypoop, we had a HERO in Al Gore and his privately commissioned mercy flights). He has expressed his disdain for the poor, women, college students, Muslims, Mexicans (I assume)--so whatever he is pushing, it's anti-humanity.

As with everything else promoted by the RW, it has been named quite the opposite of what is really is about: UNFAIRNESS.

[Lars39]

43. You're on a progressive site trying to hawk a RW national sales tax?

:eyes:

[RebelDawg]

48. Why does it have to be a RW

idea? Have you studied the idea? Most industrialized nations have this type of tax system.

[ima_sinnic]

54. documentation?

I would be very very interested in learning about this system in "most industrialized nations."

[RebelDawg]

74. my bad...

that is not true.

[Lars39]

60. It would hurt the poor.

Look who is promoting it.When have they ever had our interests front and center?

[RebelDawg]

78. No it wouldn't

your just wrong..

[Lars39]

80. Please demonstrate.

[izzybeans]

66. uhmm wrong

Eastern bloc countries have a flat tax, but weak and ineffective governments, rising inequalities, and no social safety net.

Western Europe have progressive income tax codes. Though there is a similar movement led by upper class elites to create a flat system.

[RebelDawg]

79. Your right

I was wrong on that.

[Bridget Burke]

68. It's promoted by Right Wing propagandists...

And it will further enrich those who don't need it.

[SidDithers]

71. Which industrialized nations?...

Put up or shut up time.

Sid

[RebelDawg]

81. I shut up on that point

But I still think this is an issue that liberals should study and we should support.

[LostinVA]

55. Flat taxes are totally regressive n/t

[racaulk]

58. .

:popcorn:

[newportdadde]

63. Its like the Fox lecturing the chicken on henhouse security

I hear the Colombian drug cartels have a good anti-drug program as well. Did you know Exxon is rolling out some new gas saving tips?

Always, always look at who is offering up a plan and what they have to gain. If you have a bunch of rich guys talking about a tax plan you better damn well believe its not going to help the guy who works overtime ever week to tap out 40k. Get a fucking clue people.

Its garbage. My FEDERAL Tax(not Fica) wasn't that high at all and I make in the upper 50s. Percentage wise it wasn't anywhere near 23%, I had just standard deductions, wife, myself and one child and a small stock sale, CD interest etc.

The only thing a federal sales tax will do is slow down spending and create a nice black market - a HUGE fucking no-no since right now our banking system churns out greenbacks like candy to keep that spending going. Idiotic consumer spending is the only thing keep this economy on life support right now. We never even returned to the regular recession saving level our country moves to each time it comes out of a recession.

Terrible idea.

[Skinner]

84. Locking. (nt)