Advertising on DU: Stage One

[EarlG]

Yesterday Skinner laid out our plan to try Google advertising on DU, and today we have started with Stage One of the experiment.

Here's what you should know:

1. Currently the ads are only running on the Latest page. We will be adding them to other pages in the coming days, and we'll let you know whenever we make new additions.

2. We have placed the ads in four spots. There is one set of "link units" at the top of the page and three "ad units" in different places on the page, which is our maximum allowed. There is a "Rectangle" ad in the right column (above the announcements), a "Skyscraper" ad in the left column (below the blog ads), and a "Half Banner" ad which floats inside the center column.

3. We are testing to see which placements are most effective. This layout will remain in place until we have enough information to figure out which placements work best; after a while we may move the ads around so that we can test different configurations.

4. WE KNOW THAT THERE WILL BE ADS FOR CAUSES YOU MAY NOT WANT TO SEE. This is very important. We can filter ads from certain URLs but only after we see them, and it takes a few hours for the filters to take effect. So please don't start a brazillion threads complaining about all the ads you don't want to see. We'll take care of them as they come up.

5. Feel free to click on ads which interest you, but don't be fooled into thinking that you can support DU by running all over the page clicking ads over and over again: first, it will artificially inflate our CPM rate so we won't get an accurate idea of how much money we can raise through the ads, and second, Google considers this kind of behavior to be fraudulent. So even though the ads are new, please treat them as you would on any other site.

6. If it looks like the ads aren't rendering properly, hold down the "Shift" key and hit Reload or Refresh in your browser.

7. Thank you again for your continued patience and understanding as we test out these ads!

EarlG, Skinner & Elad

[Coexist]

1. thanks for the update - I have a question:

I saw the little thingies at the top of the page and clicked on one category - one of the list was TampaBay.com. I live in this area - does Google customize them like that? If so, how do they know?

Thanks,
Me

[Elad]

3. I don't know if Google chooses ads based on your location

but any software can determine your general geographical location via your IP address, it's a pretty simple trick that a lot of places use. I have seen ads that are targetted to specific regions based on this trick.

[Coexist]

5. Okay - thanks for the response.

[flyingfysh]

33. that explains why I get ads for Virginia

My ISP operates out of Virginia. But I live in Massachusetts...

[huskerlaw]

25. I think it must...

I got links to Phil Angeledes' campaign site (running for gov of CA) and one for a CA Dem who's running for Assembly.

[OKNancy]

2. It's already paying off for the advertisers - LOL

I'd never seen this and it sounds like a great book:
http://littledemocrats.net/index.html

Good luck to the admins and DU. I hope this is a wonderful way to generate funds for OUR DemocraticUnderground.

[madokie]

6. I'm with you there, our link to sanity

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. Good luck to you guys with it! Hope it works out well.

[crispini]

7. Can the ads on the left hand side open up in a new window?

Just took the Polling Point Hilary survey and closed my browser window by mistake when I was done.

Just a thought.

[EarlG]

8. We're looking into that

Ideally, we would like to have the links open in a new window.

[crispini]

11. Thx!

:hi:

[LSK]

9. i see one that is mixed in the list of the latest threads

Do you think it might get confusing like that? I dont mind it in the other columns, but that add in the center column in the list of latest threads seems out of place.

[crispini]

10. I don't mind it cause it's in a text box.

But I think it would look nicer if it were centered. I'm such a nitpicker. :D

[EarlG]

12. We don't want people to click on it accidentally

so we've made sure it looks like a Google ad. But that IS the spot on the page where most people read and click, so that ad could end up performing better than the other ones. Time will tell.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. That Was The One That Popped Out To Me Most At Work. I Clicked On It Too.

It was for a political messageboard site. Seemed to have too many freeper minded type threads though. (Though there were definitely some liberal ones, and one titled "Impeach Bush Impeach Bush Impeach Bush etc." LOL. But regardless, it definitely seemed like a good place to throw an ad in.

I don't mind this so far. It is easy to get used to, may give some of us visibility to like minded interests we may not have seen otherwise (such as some in this thread already admitted), and if it helps bring in funds to help DU stay at the top of its game than I'm all for it.

[Nickster]

13. LoL, "are you proud to be a Republican...vote to see results" n/t

[benburch]

14. I just created an ad campaign for White Rose...

I'll let you know how it works out, EarlG.

I think this is a totally appropriate means of funding the site, I only wish something like this would work for White Rose. Sadly, most of our traffic is podcast, and once somebody has subscribed to a podcast there is no real reason for them to return to the site.

Were I able to find something like Google AdSense that placed AUDIO ads, I could use that, but I have found nothing along those lines.

Hence, I have to continue to raise funds by a donations campaign, and in fact am working up to one now.

Thanks for all the hard work, guys! And congratulations on your marriage, EarlG!

[wakeme2008]

15. Question EarlG

can you maybe tint the ads with a very light gray background so that they would stand out a little more. :)

Other than that,,, not bad. :)

[EarlG]

32. It's a possibility

We're going to leave it as is for now but I'm not going to rule your suggestion out.

[Taxloss]

16. Why do I get the sensation that the decision has already been made?

Nothing we say will prevent further adveritising, will it?

[benburch]

19. Why should you not want the ads?

DU is an expensive site to run. They need REVENUE. It is a COMMERCIAL venture. This is about the most sure means of getting revenue for a website yet devised, other than selling sex. I think this is a great idea and will work WELL for DU and DUers.

[Taxloss]

24. I outlined my objections in this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1273778&mesg_id=1276235

The donor system makes DU a more personal and responsive space, and provides far better feedback for the Admins. The Google ads thing came from a cold call from Google - would the idea be considered necessary if that call had never been made? It's not as if DU has given any impression of being in dire straits, and if such a message did go out I would certainly donate again.

As I say, it seems the decision is made, and my views are certainly in the minority, so I'm not going to throw my toys out of the pram. But the admins haven't complained that the donor system is inadequate while I've been here, and there are already the premium ads.

Also, the ads aren't good at all - I clicked on "George Bush" on the strip, and nothing related to chimpy appeared at all - it was ads for George magazine, for hotels called george or in places called george, etc.

[benburch]

31. But the donor system is essentially unfair.

I see that myself on White Rose. A very few very generous people carry the whole weight for everybody else.

What I really want is the 40,000 unique monthly users of White Rose to each chip in a dollar every quarter. I'd clear 74 cents on that after PayPal's cut, and I'd be able to pay expenses, expand the site, hire help, and not wonder where the mortgage payment was going to come from.

What really happens is that I have a hard time raising the usual goal of $10,000 when I do a funds drive, and the majority of the money I do raise comes from large donations.

I feel guilty about having anybody give as much money as some people do to my enterprise, so I cut every corner I can in expenses, live like a pauper, and run donations drives only when the money has nearly run out from the last one, sometimes AFTER it has run out. (As is the case now.)

Can you understand the unfairness here? Am I wrong to think this way about it?

[Taxloss]

39. I do see your point. I think we're approaching this from different angles.

I'm not faced with the problem of funding a site, I'm simply a "consumer", and donor. It's Skinner's site and he can of course do with it as he pleases. But I loathe advertising of this kind, it feels so intrusive.



Fast shipping. Love it. Work like a charm!

[benburch]

41. Intrusive how?

I find an ad for a gadget to turn off TV sets a whole lot less intrusive than some of the freeper nonsense trolls post here every day.

I mean, my Newspaper has ads. Every other internet site has ads. Radio has ads.

Why is an ad here particularly intrusive?

[Taxloss]

62. The fact that there are ads everywhere is no argument for more ads.

Advertising is slowly taking over every space we mentally inhabit, with awful consequences for society.

I urge you to check out adbusters.org. The prevalence of advertising is a mental plague that we should try and resist.

[benburch]

65. The alternative is either subscription or donation.

And I have to tell you that there are real limits to Donation as a revenue source. My business model is almost 100% Donation based, and WOW is it hard to make ends meet. People take for free what is offered for free, and most never leave a tip. The fact that I exist at all is because of patrons who give disproportionately to help the cause.

[democrank]

17. How about this?

My computer skills are hovering around 2 on a 1-10, but couldn`t you force a Hastert-in-a-thong avatar on any DUer who complains about this new venture? Just a thought.

Seriously, good luck and thanks for the update. Hope it works.

[Taxloss]

18. Why? n/t

[Divine Discontent]

49. a lot of people aren't going to show dissention

even if it's not mean-spirited in nature at ALL. People are afraid to stand up against things that are quickly backed by others, it's just social behavior, sadly.

taxloss, you're not the only person concerned about google's cold call just before the quarterly fundraiser, then announced after it was done. I have given what I could to DU several times, I take care of my brother with MS, which is extremely hard, and despite another DU'er saying, 'people so against this type of idea need to STFU or enter the $100 donation club' (paraphrasing). That makes me SICK. As if your views are unworthy to be heard unless you have the money.

Anyhow, I am all for DU alieviating it's financial burdens, and the response above to a DU'er from the Adm. who said they didn't know about the Tampa Bay question that a user in my state inquired about, and it sorta startled me a bit, because I figured they'd know that if given authorization by DU.com to place ads on us, then Google would be able to either narrow down where we were, or directly know our location and store it, and know what we click, look at, discuss in detail, etc, just by someone at Google being assigned our name to "work on", to think that doesn't happen, NOW, after the unbelievable revelations of hard core spying on Americans, is juvenile and naive. We cannot forget the governments attempts to gather information from Google, nor, Google's own behaviors, and placing so much information about it's users into their hands is a very significant point to be discussed because it's our information.

The word "underground" in DU is there for a reason, we know they're out to stop freedom of speech, freedom of the press and our freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution, anyone paying half attention would get that feeling, and we at DU generally pay a lot of attention.

As I said, I am TRUSTING that one of the three Admin. is really with it technically, I'd like to think it's Skinner, because he seems so bright.

Your concerns are very substantiated, very timely, and very much needed. I am a true believer in standing up with a strong voice if you are believing in something with merit and relaying it without hatred or disrespect, because, who cares if you get blackballed from somewhere (which you wouldn't from DU for just stating your case) because you spoke up? Why would you want to be a member there, right? So, speak your peace, and tell it like it is - surely more information will begin to come out on this, and it will either succeed on ALL levels of it's needed importance (privacy concerns & financial gains for DU.com), or it will flop and be sent to the crapper.

We wouldn't have this site without Skinner, surely most of us would've been somewhere else, or been a part of starting something, but this DU is WONDERFUL, is it not? I'll work with them because I think they'll do what's right in the long run.

[benburch]

50. Why would Google do ANYTHING to stand in the way of this site?

Or to censor it in any way, shape, or form?

I don't get your objection here. Google has done more for the dissemination of radical thought on the net than any other web company.

[Divine Discontent]

51. They're in it for the money, first of all, &, oh yeah, that's right -----

They've got it good now and will start to show they care about their stock value (like what the CEO of Exxon said, "we're here to make money for the investors"), oh yeah, they already did, China.

This conversation would be pretty equal on grounds if this were 2003, but it's not, imo, because we're now realizing the Government is in secret deals with media, communications, and internet giants to supress our freedoms, data mine and store billions of files on every move and, of course, they have the audacity to deny it. I told my brother last year our calls were being monitored by the gov't for no reason, I didn't enjoy telling him 'told you so'. I have no further comment on the matter, I hope it goes well for DU, truly.

[benburch]

55. And tell me how the display of ads could have ANY effect on DU?

Now, I understand how a search engine like Google can restrict access to content, like they did (poorly) in China, but we are not talking about access to DU here.

We already know where DU is, and display of ads can have zero impact upon the content here.

If you are asserting that Google would some day strong-arm Skinner and cause him to restrict content, then you don't know Skinner very well at all. That dog won't hunt.

This is about a fairly subversive web site (DU) using the leverage of a major corporation (Google) to fund itself and further spread its subversive message.

And in the bargain, businesses that have something to sell to Democrats will get access to that marketplace.

You know when the Gay community really started getting respect? When they became a marketing demographic, that is when. When merchants began to understand that Gay people were their customers. There were a number of campaigns, including boycotts, but what really worked was the "Gay Bucks" campaign where Gay people stamped their money to show that it had passed through the hands of a Gay person. When a merchant was confronted with a cash drawer that contained many Gay Bucks, he or she had to face the fact that Gay people were important to his business.

Moreover, if you are concerned that Google can use DU to track your visits here, there are technical means of preventing that which I can describe for you if you like, but really ANYBODY here could track you just by pasting in an image that they host on a web server that they control. It is that simple.

What are your specific concerns?

[Taxloss]

61. Would DU show up in a search on google.cn?

I think not.

That's a problem.

[benburch]

67. Yes, it does!

http://www.google.cn/search?hl=zh-CN&q=Democratic+Underground&btnG=Google+??&meta=

[Taxloss]

64. It's not the timing that bothers me, it's the principle.

Thank you for your support. I am worried about this really changing the nature of DU.

[CONN]

68. I agree with Taxloss

this can't be good. can it? more money in, more spent, more money needed. risk compromising standards.

[madokie]

20. I like the idea of adding a little color because I just clicked on one

inadvertently. I don't see how this add thing will hurt anything or bother anyone. Looks to me like another fine upgrade.
DU:yourock:
Better for getting the message out

[johnaries]

21. Do you get paid per page load or per click?

If it's per click, I'll be happy to click away to help out!

[benburch]

23. It is per-impression.

Probably because Google knows we'd do that.

[slestak]

22. Looks good, bruddah

The ads are pretty unobtrusive. Hope this works out for you guys.

[Dolomite]

26. How soon before they find out about the "guns" and "outdoor" forum?

And which will the site management choose to give up:

Google?

Or a forum here, a forum there, and so on?

[SmokingJacket]

27. It clutters up the page somewhat, but no big deal.

I guess people must really click on those things, but I never do -- I'm afraid they'll lead to some annoying hard-to-load animated gambling site, or something.

I understand your rationale, and don't have a problem with DU getting some more funds!

[wryter2000]

28. Question

How do we alert you to an ad we'd like to have filtered out?

[EarlG]

36. For now post the URL in this thread

in future we'll probably just ask you to send us an email. (Reminder though: just because someone asks us to remove an ad, it doesn't necessarily mean we'll do it. It depends on the content.)

[rocktivity]

29. The key is doing the "fine tuning"

Can you close the spaces between the ads over the announcement box? Also, the the box ad in the thread listings doesn't work--I think the style of the ads you're using over the announcement box with a border look more "natural." I'm speaking from experience, by the way.

:headbang:
rocknation

[EarlG]

37. I don't think we can close the spaces

The box is a standard size; the reason there are spaces is because sometimes two ads are served up, sometimes four. That's Google's layout, unfortunately we can't do anything about it. As for the box ad in the thread listings, we'll see how it goes once we have some data on the performance of each ad.

[rocktivity]

40. When there are four ads, it looks superb.

They could be almost mistaken for DU links, and that's the exactly effect you want! ;)

And I'm not objecting to there being an ad among the thread listings, just its size--I think it would look better if it were wider. Isn't there an ad banner-sized text box?

:bounce:
rocknation

[rocktivity]

60. Mea culpa

Now that I'm home on a 15-inch monitor as opposed to my 19-inch monitor at work, the half-banner-sized in the thread listing look better because it actually fits. But the thread listing looks a bit cramped now...

:evilgrin:
rocknation

[kmla]

30. Heh heh heh. He said "brazillion".

Reminds me of a joke... Stop me if you've heard it befor

[TygrBright]

34. Does anyone know a way to get Adblock to ALWAYS block those frames...

...so that I don't have to keep re-blocking them every time I open that page? I think there's an "add filters" feature, but I'm not sure how to make it block ads from this source only when I'm on this site.

Anyone know?

beseechingly,
Bright

[Lisa0825]

35. I'dbe more likely to click the ones on the right or left than top,

just because the ones on the top aren't specific. If I want to click on something to look up "Liberal Blogs," I may as well google it myself. But if a specific blog title popped up there that sounded interesting, I'd click it. The ones on the right and left are more specific, and I will glance atthose to see if any are interesting.

Just my little observation/input.

[crispini]

38. I agree.

I was looking at the ones on the top and I just feel like they're not very tempting.

Some of the others, though... Hmmmm....

[rocktivity]

43. I agree also.

I would lose it altogether and insert a second ad among the thread listings.

:headbang:
rocknation

[IndyOp]

42. The spacing of Thread Titles on Latest page is Awful!

I cannot read the names/souces/authors of the threads on the "Latest Page" because there are no lines between them. Yuck!

General Discussion
All right, we had the damn trial. Now execute Lay and Skilling! Click here to hide this thread
Discussion started Thu May-25-06 02:21 PM by bluestateguy
Latest Breaking News
Rove-Novak Call Was Concern To Leak Investigators Click here to hide this thread
Discussion started Thu May-25-06 02:20 PM by Veronica.Franco
General Discussion
Caption Ken Lay! Click here to hide this thread
Discussion started Thu May-25-06 02:19 PM by racaulk
General Discussion
Lay, Skilling found guilty at Enron trial Click here to hide this thread
Discussion started Thu May-25-06 02:17 PM by Warpy

Please put the lines back between the threads!

General Discussion
All right, we had the damn trial. Now execute Lay and Skilling! Click here to hide this thread
Discussion started Thu May-25-06 02:21 PM by bluestateguy

Latest Breaking News
Rove-Novak Call Was Concern To Leak Investigators Click here to hide this thread
Discussion started Thu May-25-06 02:20 PM by Veronica.Franco

General Discussion
Caption Ken Lay! Click here to hide this thread
Discussion started Thu May-25-06 02:19 PM by racaulk

General Discussion
Lay, Skilling found guilty at Enron trial Click here to hide this thread
Discussion started Thu May-25-06 02:17 PM by Warpy

On Edit: I am on an eMac, running FireFox 1.5.0.3...

[Skinner]

44. Hold the "shift" key and click the Reload/Refresh link on your browser.

That will fix it.

[IndyOp]

54. Shift + Refresh corrects the problem with spacing. Thanks. (nt)

[EarlG]

45. Try holding down shift

and refreshing the page.

[IndyOp]

53. Shift + Refresh corrects the problem with spacing. Thanks. (nt)

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. With Firefox, I visited one site, and it then turned up in my bookmarks

after the "DU latest" page. I certainly didn't put it there on purpose, and I can't remember getting the "Add Bookmark" window you normally get if you hit Ctrl+D (this is on Windows). I can't really experiment further, because that will look like the "click on every ad to help DU" that Google don't want.

This isn't going to be a common effect, is it?

[Skinner]

47. Which site?

We'll block it if it is forcing people to add it to their bookmarks.

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. "New Internationalist" - www.newint.org

but they are so 'politically correct' that I wouldn't think it was they who did it (I've certainly visited their main web page before and it hasn't happened). The link was to their shop. I wouldn't want them blocked unless it has happened to someone else too - maybe I did do something to get it added, somehow.

[muriel_volestrangler]

66. Well, it reappeared, so I tried it again, and it didn't add this time

so maybe I just did something weird. However, I have a site you might want to block - mi5careers.co.uk. No joke, and it's a genuine site (not an advert for the TV series of something) - there's a link on the .gov.uk site too. It's not that I'm totally anti-government, I just wonder if it's what a political site wants to be advertising (especially since you're American ...)

[benburch]

48. As these ads are per-impression, not per-click...

it ought not upset Google at all if you click through them to experiment.

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. It didn't sound like that from the OP

"Feel free to click on ads which interest you, but don't be fooled into thinking that you can support DU by running all over the page clicking ads over and over again: first, it will artificially inflate our CPM rate so we won't get an accurate idea of how much money we can raise through the ads, and second, Google considers this kind of behavior to be fraudulent."

[benburch]

59. Hmmm....

When I signed up for a DU-specific ad, the only option was per-impression.

[EarlG]

52. I've just posted a Stage Two thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1283503

[aquart]

63. THE BLINKING SIGNS ARE DRIVING ME INSANE.

Maybe other people can screen them out, but they totally screw up my ability to focus on what I'm reading.