Suspect in beating death of NY Times reporter Rosenbaum

[im10ashus]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A suspect in the beating death of New York Times reporter David Rosenbaum turned himself in to police Thursday night after TV stations broadcast surveillance images showing his face.

Michael Hamlin, 23, of Washington, saw one of the broadcasts and went to the 7th District police station "inquiring why his face was on TV," said Metropolitan Police Detective Anthony Paci.

Police then took him to another police station, where he confessed, Paci said.

Earlier, investigators released surveillance videos showing a man who may have used a credit card stolen from Rosenbaum.

Police said the credit card had been used seven times since Rosenbaum's death, to buy a total of $1,300 worth of merchandise.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/01/13/nytimes.slaying.ap/index.html

[helderheid]

1. I wonder how much torture, er I mean questioning he had to go through

before he "confessed".

[danalytical]

3. WTF

So you think this is a tortured innocent man caught up in a conspiracy? Yeah OK.

[helderheid]

4. The death is completely suspicious. The reporter was after the * Admin and

this guy walks into a station asking why his face is on the tv. After going to another station he confesses. Yes, something smells here.

[im10ashus]

6. That's why I posted this.

It doesn't make sense.

[helderheid]

7. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. Thanks for posting this.

[FreedomAngel82]

141. It is strange

You can see everything in a person's eyes.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

25. Could he have possibly acquired the CREDIT CARD and was NEVER involved in

in anything to do with a killing?

Seems pretty easy for a hit man to throw out a credit card on the street in a poor neighborhood
hoping some poor desperate guy is going to come along and try and use it.
PRESTO: Instant Patsy -->they automatically link the guy to the killing

If you'd just killed someone would you walk into a police station raising questions about why your face was on T.V.?

[helderheid]

31. Thank you. Remember, this guy was out for blood with the * admin.

[LisaL]

41. People do it all the time-walk into police stations and

ask questions. A hit man-LOL. Mr. Rosenbaum wasn't even dead when he was found. He died a couple of hours later. That would have to be some shitty hit man, I would say.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

57. when's the last time you met a good hit man? or a smart one? n/t LOL !

[LisaL]

59. I don't associate with hit man, good or bad.

[iconoclastNYC]

77. Uhm, you don't need to kill a journalist to send a message

Leaving the guy in a coma is probably as good if not better.

If this was a hit it was as much to send a message what happens to journalist that stray off the reservation as stopping whatever this guy had.

[The Doctor.]

107. Have to agree with that.

A real pro wouldn't oleave him alive.
Not if we're talking about someone on BFEE payroll or something. They'd be ex-military/psycho. And yes, I've met smart hitmen.

[The Doctor.]

106. It doesn't make any sense.

Unless the guy is a complete and total moron.

The one thing that bugs me is that Rosenbaum wasn't immediately dead. No professional would leave a job undone on the offchance he could talk.

[WinkyDink]

109. He likely didn't realize the extent of his inflicted injuries.

He likely isn't a rocket scientist, either.

[The Magistrate]

142. In The Mugging Trade, Doctor

There are a lot of complete and total morons to be found....

"Some men rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain pen."

[The Doctor.]

196. Right...

I'm just saying that that would have to be the case here.

But it's still strange.

[bobthedrummer]

61. It's no speculation that David Rosenbaum contributed to a NYT

article published 12-24-2005 regarding an Alito memo (from 1984) favoring immunity for government officials involved in domestic surveillance.

Here's an abstract of the article.
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30C12F83E540C778EDDAB0994DD404482

What a coincidence...

[Matariki]

111. well the fact that he went into the police station to see why his face

was on tv might tell you something. or not.

[WI_DEM]

13. he doesn't look like he was tortured

ocassionally not everything is a conspiracy.

[helderheid]

15. I agree - but this still smells to me.

[iconoclastNYC]

79. Waterboarding doesn't leave marks

Perfect for those cases where the Red Cross needs to come in and do a quick look. No torture here! :)

[adriennui]

34. oh come on....

this monster has every indication of being a murderer. let's not make him out to be a noble savage unless you believe the reporter deserved to die a painful death.

[helderheid]

37. Good God, no one is saying that! MANY on DU were concerned about this case

because the reporter who was murdered was after the * administration.

[hookinmouth]

137. I still think it was done on purpose

[iconoclastNYC]

85. Every indication?

What's that mean? He's black? He's poor? You don't know how he got that credit card.

He's innocent until proven guilty, or does that only apply to Enron executives, and disgraced Bush cabinent officals?

[watrwefitinfor]

180. "Monster"? "Noble savage"???

"this monster has every indication of being a murderer. let's not make him out to be a noble savage unless you believe the reporter deserved to die a painful death."

Something about the photograph of this man enables you to make that judgment of him? on DU?

I am speechless.

Wat

[Eric J in MN]

190. It's a question of whether they got the man who really did it.

We all agree that the murderer should be severely punished.

It's just kind of strange for someone who committed a murder to go to a police station and ask "why his face was on TV."

[theHandpuppet]

95. Oh brother... here we go again

:eyes:

[helderheid]

117. yea, nice to have you here.

:)

[theHandpuppet]

140. Yeah, well it would really help if some folks around here...

... would actually keep up with the facts in a story before running wild with conspiracy theories.

For the latest on this report:
http://www.nbc4.com/news/6033408/detail.html

[Loonman]

2. Patsy?

Lee Harvey?

[Marie26]

8. They have surveillance videos of him using

the victim's credit card. For him to be a patsy - those videos would have to be fake, or he'd have to have received the card somwhow w/o doing the mugging. In which case, why would he confess to the mugging? That's a 20+ year sentence - hard to imagine what would get someone to be a fall guy for that. Maybe it's just a simple mugging - DC isn't known for it's low crime rate.

[helderheid]

10. From my understanding, it happened in a very "good" area. That credit card

could have made its way into his hands any number of ways.

[im10ashus]

12. Good point.

Just because he used the CC doesn't mean he committed the murder.

[Marie26]

16. Maybe

But then why would he confess to the crime? That's what I don't get. And even assuming he got the credit card later - that means it was him on the videos. He'd know why his face was on TV. So why would he wander into a police station to ask about it? I think this may just be an example of your typical stupid criminal (really, most of them are). This sounds like an opportunistic crime; where he didn't have a plan or a weapon, but saw a well-dressed man walking alone & took his chances. He probably just took the wallet & ran - taking the other items would've taken too much time. And then he tried to use the credit cards as fast as he could - not knowing or caring about store surveillence. Once he saw his face on TV, he realized he was caught & turned himself in. It just sounds like a typical mugging to me. I have trouble constructing a scenario involving a conspiracy, but maybe I'm missing something.

[helderheid]

21. You're asking the same questions I am

[RaleighNCDUer]

71. Why did the kids in NY jogger case admit to a murder they

did not commit?

Confess and play ball for the promise of lighter sentence, or face the full weight of the government, with ATM cameras showing use of the CC, promising to deliver on death penalty?

When the DA says "we've got you and you're not getting out" the only choice left is to save your life with a false confession.

It happens all the time. Why do you think there are so many people, with confessions, who are later proved innocent on death row?

[Marie26]

88. Oh, it definitely happens

A lot. But one difference in this case is that the police actually have physical evidence directly linking the defendant to the crime - that videotape. If it's really him on that tape, it's hard for him to deny having some involvement w/the case. Also, false confessions often happen when the police suddenly surprise people w/arrest or evidence. This guy went to the police station himself - he obviously had something to say & wasn't caught off guard by the police. This just doesn't seem like a case of false confession here - but I guess it's always a possibility.

[LisaL]

18. The most likely way for him to get that card was to beat

poor Mr. Rosenbaum to death to get it.

[KatieW]

19. So some really think this guy was set up?

Some of you sound almost as bad as the right wing nut casess who thought Bill and Hillary Clinton were responsible for Vince Foster's death, as well as others. It seems that some just have to see a conspiracy behind everything. Gotta agree with Marie26, maybe a simple mugging is just that, a simple mugging and this was just a very very stupid perp.

[helderheid]

23. maybe.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[txindy]

38. Now, now

Don't neglect the three posts in other threads. Interesting thread choices, all. :eyes:

[helderheid]

39. self delete

[im10ashus]

51. LOL.

Me thinks me smells a rat.

[LisaL]

28. Exactly.

Add to that Mr. Rosenbaum was still alive after this guy was done with him, and died later because of his injuries and slow response from the hospital. If somebody actually wanted to kill him (hit) then why would they leave him alive? Most likely the moron who did it beat him up to steal his wallet, not knowing he actually killed him.

[sendero]

49. That's when I stopped wondering..

.... about it all. If it were a hit, he would have been dead on the spot IMHO. People in that sort of business don't take chances on doing a half-assed job, and frankly even with a bat it is not hard to kill someone. One good whack on the head, and that's it.

This was a mugging where the criminal accidently used a little more force than he intended to.

[Marie26]

50. Right

It sounds like he didn't use a weapon, but just beat him up. The paramedics didn't even intially know the victim had been assaulted & thought he was drunk. It almost sounds like a concussion. Head injuries can cause real damage, even if the blow itself is not super-severe. This guy probably focused on the wallet & didn't "try" to kill Mr. Rosenbaum (he just didn't care if he did). Now that he's confessed, he might not even get charged w/murder.

[LisaL]

64. If he killed Mr. Rosenbaum during a robbery, why on Earth wouldn't

he be charged with murder?

[AngryAmish]

73. Many times prosecutors wait

they can keep him jailed with the CC stuff and then get all their ducks in a row before charging the murder.

[Marie26]

84. He could plea it down.

It doesn't sound like he "intended" to kill Mr. Rosenbaum - and w/o that intent, he can only be charged w/manslaughter. There's an exception for felony murder - if you kill someone during the course of a felony, you can be charged w/murder whether it was intended or not. So he'd qualify that way. The problem is that most prosecutors are willing to plea down a charge if the suspect is willing to plea guilty. But since this is such a high-profile case, the prosecutors might try to charge him the maximum anyway. I guess it's really up to the prosecutors.

[RaleighNCDUer]

75. But why would a mugger walk into a police station to find out what

he did? If he did it, he already knew. At the very least, he knew he had mugged someone. Criminals live in a world of fear and paranoia -- they just don't do that.

OTOH, silencing a too-inquisitive reporter with a good beating is right up the alley of some of these RW types -- maybe they just didn't expect him to die. RW thugs beat a reporter, take his wallet, dump the wallet in a poor neighborhood where someone is bound to find it - whether the CC is used or not, it still points the finger at that neighborhood.

[alcibiades_mystery]

119. So, when he says "Why is my face on TV?"

you believe that he doesn't know why.

That's your first mistake.

[Eric J in MN]

192. If he wanted to confess, why not confess in the first place.

nt

[iconoclastNYC]

83. OK

We're just as bad as Republicans giving this guy the presumption of innocence. OK.

This is a murder, not a suicide. This guy was working on story's that damaged the BFEE. Big difference here.

[Eric J in MN]

191. The Washington Post has run articles on parts of Maryland where

the police force a suspect to stay awake until he confesses.

I don't know if that happened in this case, but false confessions are a fact of life. Not a wild conspiracy.

[iconoclastNYC]

80. Having the card doesn't mean he murdered the guy

Stolen credit cards are often times sold for as little as $100....less risk for the person who's fingerprints are all over the murder.

[AngelAsuka]

97. A pond or puddle near a poor area would be

a great place. Finding that card would be perceived as a miracle to the right people! And in the end, thats what the entire case comes down to. With the Iran junk taking over the airwaves, the 'perception' that a reporter was killed, this guy did it, he had the credit card -- guilty and go.

"What good is a phone call, Mr. Anderson, when you can't speak?"

As for the suspect not copping to a higher charge he didn't do because it would be 20 years? I'll take 20 years over vanishing into the untraceable depths of the DHS. Who would know you were gone? And if they did...what proof do they have? 'Oh, so their son disappeared after going to a police station, god you tinfoilhatters will say anything...' (And as another poster noted last night...yes, those initials DO simply become an ominous acronym. :( )

Perception Management and DHS aside...there is a rather good chance that all this IS kosher, but the other possibilities don't deserve to be ridiculed without consideration.

Occam's Razor...IS just a tendency, after all. Not a law. :evilgrin:

~~AA~~

[Marie26]

101. Occam's Razor

Anything's possible, but in general Occam's Razor is a pretty good way to approach things - "The simplest explanation tends to be the correct one." The problem is that the simplest explanation also tends to be the most boring! Maybe that's why conspiracy theories take on a life of their own sometimes - they're usually more interesting than the everyday news. That doesn't mean a conspiracy can't exist though - like you say, Occam's Razor is just a tendency. :) I think it's good to consider all possibilities & use your own judgment on which one is correct.

[savemefromdumbya]

145. fall guy - you'd be surprised!

[theboss]

5. DC - lots of crime but dumb criminals

I love my town.

[Gemini Cat]

62. Exactly.

The worst of the lot are currently fouling up the White House. Plus there are a bunch of real evil fuckers sitting over on the Hill.
DC is rough and scarey!!

[zbdent]

9. Well, we knew it wasn't Mannthrax Coulter

(s)he couldn't hold its own against a cream pie . . .

11. why would he go to the police station? suspicious n/t

[rman]

17. very

he confessed, so presumably he did know he had committed murder (if he's in fact the culprit) - and then he goes to a police station to find out why his face was shown on TV? sure....

[LisaL]

20. Because his face was on TV.

He knew he was going to be turned in sooner or later.

42. If a person is a bad enough dude to kill someone

then I think they would try to hide for as long as they could. I don't know how a lot of these cases go, but I certainly don't think people turn themselves in unless they are innocent. Maybe his lawyer convinced him to cop a plea or get life in prison.

Maybe it is a fluke and he did kill him, but considering this is a reporter writing about the White House, I am extremely suspicious.

[LisaL]

45. People turn themselves in all the time.

A lot of criminals profiled on AMW just turn themselves in because they know their goose is cooked, so to speak. Since the guy's face was on TV, he probably went in hoping to bullshit his way out of it, and then confessed when presented with evidence.

[RaleighNCDUer]

76. That's not a cue to walk into a cop shop.

That's when you leave town.

[PunkPop]

14. Huh??

Michael Hamlin, 23, of Washington, saw one of the broadcasts and went to the 7th District police station "inquiring why his face was on TV," said Metropolitan Police Detective Anthony Paci.

Police then took him to another police station, where he confessed, Paci said.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[LisaL]

22. He used Mr. Rosenbaums credit card and was caught on camera.

His face was shown on TV. He went in because of this. WTF is so difficult to understand?

[helderheid]

26. Why would anyone who knew they murdered someone walk into

a police station to ask why their face was on TV and later confess??

[LisaL]

30. Because he knew he was caught.

Many people turn themselves in when they know they have been caught. Having your face plastered all over TV will do that to you.

[helderheid]

32. Okay so we've concluded he was either really smart, really dumb, or not

guilty.

I need coffee. :)

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. He went in hoping to bullshit the DTs

Then was presented with increasing evidence that pointed up his bullshit AS bullshit. He then had to decide if he wanted felony murder of some version of a lower charge that would avoid court. He told a story that would get him the lower charge. The stories about the paramedics basically fucking up the medical care will probably work in his favor to some degree, so that he can take a manslaughter charge and see the light of day again in 15 years or so.

Why this is so hard to believe is a mystery to me. This is how homicides are usually "solved."

[The Magistrate]

143. You Have The Right Of It, Mr. Mystery, It Seems To Me

"To be a policeman is to be lied to for a living."

46. Do you know specifically that a lot of people

that are caught on camera, turn themselves in? I hardly ever read that in the papers. It is usually they are cornered and get shot up or something.

[LisaL]

48. How about this one?

"OMAHA, Neb. -- A KETV NewsWatch 7 Crime Stoppers Most Wanted criminal turned himself in to police and was subsequently charged with an additional crime.

Ronald Higgins was featured on KETV Sunday night on a felony shoplifting warrant. Omaha police said he saw himself on TV and turned himself in.

While at headquarters, officers interviewed Higgins about the abuse of a child, whom Higgins had been responsible for taking care of at the time the child was taken to a hospital on Nov. 21."



http://www.ketv.com/crimestoppers/5427554/detail.html

[LisaL]

52. And what about this guy?

http://www.channel3000.com/news/5868918/detail.html
Just search google. There are hundreds of cases where criminals turn themselves in.

[PunkPop]

72. Of course plenty of criminals turn themselves in.

That's not the thing that doesn't make sense.

Somebody who's perfectly aware that they are guilty going in to 'inquire why his face was on tv' is the thing that doesn't make sense to me. He absolutely knows why his face is on tv and the fact that it is on tv (and tape) pretty much proves that he has been caught. Trying to convince the police of your innocence when your face is on tape caught red-handed makes no sense to me.

Just thought I'd clarify my first post. That part just seems strange to me. I'm not alleging any kind of grand conspiracy.

[alcibiades_mystery]

78. Suspects lie. That's what they do

He probably had some story about a guy selling him the credit card on the Metro or some such other nonsense - jeez, I'da never thunk that they'd put out a television picture of little old me on some minor stolen credit card use, tra la la...

[PunkPop]

89. Hard to believe someone is so stupid as to try and lie his way

out of a situation where he has been so thoroughly busted. Especially for something as serious as murder. I guess he figured it was his best option.

BTW, who does the song in your sig line. I'm sitting here singing the song but just cannot remember who does it. It's driving me a little crazy.

[alcibiades_mystery]

115. Paul Simon

Suspects are often that stupid, in fact, and arrogant.

[PunkPop]

121. That's it.

The Blue Aeroplanes did a great cover - a little more rocking version. That's the one that's running in my head. It's all coming back to me now. Thanks.

[RaleighNCDUer]

81. There's a big difference facing 6 mos for shoplifting and facing

DP for murder.

I still don't buy it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

55. Please

Happens all the time. You watch too many movies.

[sproutster]

113. He knew he was caught ... between police stations?

WTF people critical thinking. Obviously there is more to this, but do NOT tsk tsk this away until doubts are extiguished. Presume innocence - make a case for guilt - One that puts him on the nice street at the correct time.

[theboss]

67. To try to outfox the police

If he saw himself on tv, he probably knew that the net was closing. So he might have taken a bold approach and gone to the police to say, "Why am I all over tv? I've been home with my sick mom all week"...or something.

I actually know a convicted murderer. It's a weird mindset.

[danalytical]

24. Yes it does make sense

This man knew he would be caught and probably wanted to play the innocence card and/or gain a little leverage in sentencing for turning himself in. He might even have felt remorse when he found out that the man he beat and mugged actually died. His crime went from a local mugging and assault, to a national attention grabbing murder. Once he got to the station, he was most likely transferred to the district investigating the murder. Then the investigators questioned him and probably showed him the videotape of his face, and he confessed. Pretty logical if you think about it for a second.

[im10ashus]

29. Let's hope that's the case.

Because if he is NOT the real murderer, that means someone is walking free.

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. Some of the conspiracists on this thread should watch "The First 48"

It's a depressing and brutal, but enlightening show that appears on A&E. It basically tracks real murder investigations through their first 48 hours.

You see shit like this all the time. Suspects voluntarily come in, pretending to want to know what's going on, and confess when the evidence is presented to them. Most of the murders are for relatively little, a couple of bucks or even a couple of thousand. Suspects are stupid, sloppy, and have a seriously inflated sense of their own ability to bullshit their way out of it. It's at once devastatingly sad and shocking - both for the quality of the murders and quality of the intellect of the suspects, all horrendous. And even the seeming dumbness of the detectives, who often stumble on to0 suspects through informants and other such work - not at all the kind of clean logical reasoning and canny criminals depicted on, say, Law & Order.

I've watched almost every episode, and I have absolutely no trouble believing that this guy killed Rosenbaum accidently, used the damn credit cards, saw his face on TV and decided to try to bullshit the detectives, then saw some evidence arrayed against him and decided to go for some version of murder 2 or manslaughter, since the writing was on the wall. This is confirmed for me by my own experiences growing up in a low income neighborhood, where many people went to jail, including friends of mine, for relatively stupid shit. It seems to me that many of the conspiracy minded folks on this board live toomuch in a spy novel of their own imagining and have little contact indeed with the way people actually live and behave, or the way things actually work.

[LisaL]

36. I sure as hell wouldn't call this an "accidental" murder.

Just not intentional.

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. Fair enough

Listen, when a mugger is knocking somebody off for a couple of bucks on the street, the mugger usually doesn't expect the death of the victim.

So, maybe not "accidental" like a car accident, but - as you say - surely not intentional. It's connected to the robbery, and that could bump it up to felony murder, depending on the statutes, but this really strikes me as Manslaughter First degree and robbery.

[LisaL]

43. Yea, I doubt he expected Mr. Rosenbaum to die.

But then he probably didn't care what was going to happen to Mr. Rosenbaum, just so he could get his hands on Mr. Rosenbaum's money.

[im10ashus]

44. He may have been playing that game, like you said.

It's dumb, yes, but if he was using stolen credit cards, he wasn't too bright to begin with.

[ProfessorGAC]

47. Well, Dunno About That?

I don't know the statutes in D.C., but in Illinois, since the robbery and aggravated battery would both be felonies, the fact that he died during the commission of a felony makes it murder one.
The Professor

[alcibiades_mystery]

54. Yeah, I know that law

That's why I mentioned felony murder. I think the statute is too broadly applied, but that's just me. So, for example, shoot a guy during a liquor store robbery? Yes. Punch a guy in the face during a mugging, causing him to fall, hit his head, and die? That's manslaughter in my book. I have no doubt I'll be in the minority here. I've already been rejected from a jury during voir dire because I expressed doubts about such applications of the felony murder statute.

[LisaL]

56. At least you are honest up front.

If you kill another human being just to steal a few miserly bucks, you deserve everything that is going to happen to you.

[alcibiades_mystery]

58. Perhaps

The question for me is do you deserve life without parole for PUNCHING a human being for his or her money. That's the distinction that seems crucial to me.

[ProfessorGAC]

60. Actually, You & I Agree

But, one never knows what a prosecutor will do. Geez, we have prosecutors in Illinois who KNOWINGLY convicted two guys for a murder they knew they didn't commit. And a jury found them not guilty of malfeasance and misconduct. Prosecutors get a little too much leeway, and i think these muggings that result in death cause enough community fright, that prosecutors take a hard line so they can be "tough on crime".
The Professor

[LisaL]

63. Yes, muggings that results in death are just harmless.

Unless you are the person walking down the street, and some moron beats the hell out of you just to get your money. Maybe then you would want the prosecutor to be "tough on crime".

[ProfessorGAC]

65. Duh!

Yeah, i said muggings are harmless. I agreed with the other poster who said they felony murder should not be the same as murder one. That's it! Try to catch up, shall we?
The Professor

[LisaL]

66. You kill someone for money-you pay the price.

[ProfessorGAC]

68. Redux

Not the deepest thinker, are you?
The Professor

[iconoclastNYC]

91. I bet you think we should execute 13 year olds too, right?

I mean, otherwise we're being "soft on crime" right?

[LisaL]

96. Absolutely. In fact, I think we should start with babies.

:sarcasm:

[iconoclastNYC]

103. I think you're kidding on the square. n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. I've been beat unconscious on the street for money

I've alo been stabbed during a botched mugging on the 7 train in New York.

I would never argue that muggings are harmless. One still receives significant prison time for manslaughter. I have respected your position here, and I'd appreciate it if we could engage each other without hyperbole and misrepresentation. I hold to that standard, and I hope that you would as well.

[im10ashus]

70. That's just horrible.

Crime of any kind shouldn't be considered "harmless." Hope you recovered from the trauma of being a victim of crime. I've had a knife put to my throat for my wallet and a gun put to my head because I am gay. Not a good feeling.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[im10ashus]

82. I would have to disagree with you on one point.

"A grown man traumatized by a mugging strikes me as weak and contemptible."

Why should men be any less susceptible to trauma? Granted, I didn't really have any recourse and was able to get on with my life. It wasn't traumatic in the debilitating sense. It only made me feel vulnerable for a long time.

[alcibiades_mystery]

114. As I said, I know I'm wrong

And I know it is macho bullshit, also as I said in the post. Knowing it doesn't make feeling it any different. Perhaps this is one way of hacking trauma among others?

[im10ashus]

149. It's not a question of right or wrong.

It's just how people respond differently. I was more angry than anything when I was assaulted. Macho posing from my Army days, most likely. :-)

[LisaL]

86. Poor Mr. Rosenbaum must have been so weak and

contemptible, considering he was a grown man and now he is dead.
:eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

112. That's not what I said and you know it

Why you feel the need to misrepresent is a mystery to me, but I suspect it's because your arguments suck. Better the straw man you're creating, then, I suppose. It's bad habit, and probably beneath you.

98. "contemptible"

Wow that is some macho bull. Having your life threatened is traumatizing, whether you want to admit to or not. But passing judgement on how others handle their trauma, that is really cold hearted.

[alcibiades_mystery]

116. You're absolutely correct

Nevertheless.

[Marr]

53. I agree with you. People who do things like that are

often amazingly arrogant and stupid to boot. There's nothing about this story that seems unbelievable to me.

[yodermon]

87. Manchurian mugger

with post-hypnotic suggestions sent by the BFEE.
I swear.

[Marie26]

90. That's a good one! nt

[hang a left]

92. I need some more information before I can come to a conclusion.

1. Was it a pattern of Rosenbaum to take nightly walks? (like David Kelly)

2. There was reportedly two men seen together at the scene of the mugging; who or where is the accomplice.

3. Did the suspect have an attorney present during questioning?

4. How did the suspect come into possession of the credit card?

5. What was he doing in that area of DC and how did he get there?

I could probably think of several others but these are just a few off the top of my head.

Three events preceding the murder of Rosenbaum that arouse suspicion.

1. The recent attack on the senate staffer with a baseball bat.

2. The New York Times wiretapping story.

3. Articles that Rosenbaum has written.

I am very suspicious, but my jury is still out.

[LisaL]

94. Two men that were seen most likely had nothing to do with it, IMO.

Kind of Wa snipers and white vans that kept popping up on the scene. The fact that somebody saw a car there with two men doesn't mean those were the men involved in the crime at all.

[shance]

93. Paid off Patsy seems more likely.

One more far too convenient "turn in" for a death that has so many questions behind it.

[Catherine Vincent]

99. Innocent until proven guilty.

Most days, crooks don't use credit cards knowing there are cameras everywhere but I gather some aren't very smart. Maybe when he hit him over the head, he didn't realize it would kill him. Which is why it's not worth it to mug people. You never know what the outcome. Sad.

[LisaL]

100. Oh dear lord-crooks don't use credit cards?

How is that identity theft is the most common crime in US? How is that that when I had my wallet stolen, the first thing crooks did is to use all my credit cards, putting as much money of them as was physically possible?
If you think crooks don't use credit cards now days, you must have been living under a rock.

[Catherine Vincent]

110. I wouldn't think they'd still use them knowing that whereever they

attempt to use them, the cameras will capture them. Gas stations, department stores, etc. Unless they'd use some disguise. A co-worker had his amex card stolen when he was on the bus and a couple of days later, the investigator caught the crooks using the card to purchase a computer. They got the guy's name and everything from the manager of the store but the idiot didn't want to press charges. That I will not understand.

[alcibiades_mystery]

138. They use them

I used to do this for a living. Believe me, they use them on camera and the most obvious ways. They mail-order shit to their grandmothers' houses. they pay for stuff in restaurants and let the waiter take the card while they sit there. They use them all the fucking time until they get denied. they're fucking idiots, mostly.

[LisaL]

146. And police don't normally go around looking at videotapes,

unless there is murder involved. If your wallet is simply stolen, police is not going to put any effort into finding out who did it.
No one cares that crooks are getting away with stealing thousands upon thousands.

[alcibiades_mystery]

151. That's exactly right

See my post below #131.

[Bethany Rockafella]

179. If the person that owned the credit card files a police report, they will.

They'll track when the card was last used. That is when they will check the videotape for further investigation.

[LisaL]

183. No, they will not.

They don't track when the card was used, they don't go and check the videotapes for further investigation, they do absolutely nothing. Nothing is what they did when I had my wallet stolen, thousands of dollars put on my credit cards, and I did file a police report ASAP.
And I knew exactly when and where credit cards were used because I got in contact with credit card companies. Of all the things the crooks could buy, they were buying shoes in a Payless Shoe Store. And gas, lots of it. LOL. Police couldn't care less about any of this. They don't even assign people to these crimes.

[alcibiades_mystery]

189. That is correct

They buy a lot of gas because they can track how long the card is still active without having to be in an actual store, with an actual person in front of them who could call the cops or security if the reading on the machine comes up "Stolen." This is the reason there will be multiple gas purchases on stolen credit cards.

Neither the cc companies nor the police will usually check the videotapes for credit card fraud, unless there is a suspect already in custody, or the fraud is connected to another case with more serious charges (as here). They simply don't have the manpower or motivation to do that. The cc company will try to stop purchases on the card as soon as possible. They have red flag controls on cards that will cause them to light up into a fraud dep't computer under specific conditions (multiple gas purchases in the same city on the sam day, combined with heavy or unusual volume on electronics and other such equipment, for instance). Some companies will halt the card there and then; others will call you to see what's going on.

[AngryAmish]

102. If the victim has hardened arteries a normal ko blow can be deadly

Plus the guy was untreated in the hospital for many hours because they thought he was drunk.

[LisaL]

104. What exactly is a "normal blow"?

[AngryAmish]

105. A punch that would only render a person unconscious

The consistency of the brain is normally like jello. Your arteries also a pretty flexible. A closed-head brain injury occurs when the brain is slammed against the inside of the skull. A knock out in boxing (ko) generally occurs when the skull is rotated rapidly and it hits the brain, rendering a person temporarily unconscious or unable to move.

If one's arteries are hardened then they cannot take the torsional forces on the brain that one receives during a blow to the head. The artery can tear and hemorrhage because it lacks flexibility.

Or there could have been bleeding on the outside of the brain (sub-dural or epidural hematomas). These can rapidly press on the brain.

(BTW, I'm not a doctor and if I am wrong then I would appreciate it if someone corrects me).

So, in my view, a normal blow is a punch/blow to the head to stun a victim so one could grab their wallet. It is not a vicious, continual beating that would leave a lot of evidence.

All this is rank speculation on my part.

[LisaL]

128. Pardon me if I normally don't go around punching people

to render them unconscious. I do not accept that as "normal behavior".

[alcibiades_mystery]

130. Stop being obtuse

The point is that punching someone doesn't get you a life sentence, under normal conditions. If by freak accident that same punch ends up killing someone, there is a qualitative difference between the action of the puncher and the action of somebody who, say, strangles someone to death. Why you're pretending not to see this is a mystery, but does you no great credit.

[LisaL]

144. Considering he apparently offered to lead the police to murder

weapon, he wasn't just punching Mr. Rosenbaum with his hands.

[alcibiades_mystery]

152. That's not the point

I was speaking as a general proposition. The fact that you have no reasonable answer to the general proposition doesn't authorize you to shift the ground back to the specific case. As a general proposition, it's not at all clear that every death resulting from the commission of a robbery is equal (i.e., qualitatively similar), so proposing blanket sentencing there (as you advocate numerous times in this thread) is unjust and cruel. Follow the thread, please.

[LisaL]

156. I don't know what is worse: kill someone with a lot of planning, or

stupidly kill them just to rob them. Certainly doesn't make a fig of difference to the victim-they are just as dead.

[alcibiades_mystery]

157. So is a victim killed in a negligent homicide car accident

But we don't sentence on that basis - because it would be unjust. Unless you propose that somebody who commits negligent homicide with a car deserves the same sentence as the Green River killer? If you don't see how stupid that sounds, I can't help you.

[LisaL]

163. I don't recall asking for any help from you. LOL.

We have laws, and the guy beat an elderly man up during robbery, which led to the man's death. That constitutes felony murder, and the guy is charged accordingly.
There is nothing wrong with that. I don't know of many robbers that actually intend to kill their victims, but if they do, they are going to be charged accordingly.

[alcibiades_mystery]

167. And I disagree with the premise of the charge

It's as simple as that. I accept that the law exists, but I think it is a stupid law and overused. That's where we stand. Your complete inability to answer any of the arguments against the charge reveal you to be a simple dogmatist, with little to offer but a reptition of the same stupid mantra.

[alcibiades_mystery]

131. As a former credit card fraud investigator

I assure you that you are laughably wrong about that. Not only do crooks use credit cards all the time, they usually do it without compunction. Moreover, the credit card companies rarely request tape to find the person using the stolen card, unless they already have someone on the hook for it. If this clown used the card thinking he had only knocked out Mr. Rosenbaum (a pretty safe assumption), then he would certainly not be worried about surveillance tapes, and needn't be. Notice that he used the card Friday night (the night of the attack) and Saturday (a day before Mr. Rosenbaum died and it became a news story), when it was already declined. probably Saturday during the day, he made the bulk of the purchases. Without knowing the victim was on his deathbed, he'd have no need to worry about the surveillance tapes being widely disseminated.

[Lerkfish]

108. this smells for two reasons:

1. he's caught on videotape for using the credit card, but other valuable items were left at the scene.
2. why was he transferred to another station to glean the confession?
3. yes, he could be that stupid, but if so, then he could also have been tricked or coerced into confessing.
I don't see where he had a lawyer present during questioning.

[alcibiades_mystery]

122. Oh, perhaps

1. What other valuable items? Perhaps the credit card theft followed his usual M.O. (Besides, who sold a black guy something believing that his name was fucking David Rosenbaum?)

2. The homicide interrogators may have been in the other station. This seems not at all weird to me. Suspects are picked up all the time at one place and taken to another. Since he brought himself to a station, moreover, it's even more likely that he wasn't in the station that was specifically handling the investigation. What do you see as weird about this? Please enlighten.

On edit, this seems in fact the case: "Hamlin walked into the police station last night wearing the same dark jacket, with his first name sewed onto a chest patch, that he had been wearing in a surveillance tape, police said. Police drove Hamlin to the department's violent crimes branch, where he provided detectives with a statement on the slaying, police said. He was charged with felony murder." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/12/AR2006011201890.html

3. Completely tortured logic. He could be stupid enough to turn himself in even though he was guilty, but if he was that stupid, he could have been tricked into confessing? Huh? Isn't the premise of the first part that he is - in fact - guilty? Or is your argument something along these lines: People who say he is guilty assume a certain level of stupidity (for turning himself in). But if you assume that level of stupidity, shouldn't you also assume that he was just stupid and framed? Tortured logic either way.

And the point that many are trying to make here is that turning oneself in for the minor crime and trying to talk oneself out of the major crime is not unusually stupid, and is in fact probably quite common. What's he gonna do? Go on the lam? This is a guy who robbed a man for credit cards to buy stuff at CVS and auto-parts. If he runs, he admits guilt. If he goes in and tries to talk his way out, he's got a chance. That's why he showed up. Then, after he's there, he's put in a room with expert interrogators and a whole pile of evidence, and figures its better to do 15-20 than life w/o parole. I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to wrap their heads around here. It happens all the fucking time.

[shance]

123. Yes, like so many other assaults on those opposing Bush/Cheney

The scenario of this "suspect" seems contrived and intentionally manufactured.

[alcibiades_mystery]

126. Seems perfectly reasonable to me

Guy robs another guy, smacks him in the head with a wrench or something, first guy dies.

Dumbass uses credit cards in heavily surveilled locations, his face is on the news, comes in to talk his way out of it, gets trapped in lies, and confesses.

Contrary to the detective novel fantasies of many on this thread, this is how homicide investigations usually turn out.

[LisaL]

133. Police normally find something a bit more complicated than that

hard to solve. Most crimes are solved because criminals are pretty dumb or make stupid mistakes.

[alcibiades_mystery]

134. Sometimes more complicated, sometimes less

I'd say this is about the average.

[rinsd]

173. See post 147

He was apparently using the credit card very close to the timeline of the attack.

[Lerkfish]

177. ah. thanks. I stand corrected.

[phusion]

118. What did he confess to???

Murder or using stolen credit cards?

Unless I'm missing something, the article doesn't really make that clear.

[Lerkfish]

120. he was only videotaped using the credit cards.

[alcibiades_mystery]

124. I think the offer to lead police to the murder weapon

probably indicates that he confessed to the murder?

That little tidbit is in the article.

[LisaL]

125. Obviously.

How is he going to show the police where he hid the murder weapon if he only confessed to using the credit card? LOL.

[alcibiades_mystery]

127. That's my point, dear

:shrug:

He did, in fact, confess.

[LisaL]

129. And I agree with that.

[im10ashus]

135. He confessed.

Albeit without an attorney present. The NY Times has an article too:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/13/national/13david.html

[helderheid]

136. ugh, not a member - can you post a snippet? Thanks!

[im10ashus]

139. Sure.

WASHINGTON, Jan. 12 - A man was arrested Thursday night in the fatal assault on David E. Rosenbaum, a retired reporter for The New York Times, and was charged with felony murder, the police said.

District of Columbia detectives said the man, Michael Hamlin, 23, a maintenance worker from southeast Washington, had seen himself on an evening news report that broadcast surveillance photographs of him the police released in late afternoon. The photographs showed a man using Mr. Rosenbaum's credit cards at a gas station and an auto parts store.

Detective Anthony Paci, the lead detective in the case, said Mr. Hamlin had walked into the Seventh District Police station in southeast and said he "wanted to know why my face is in the news."

<snip>

The police would not answer questions about what Mr. Hamlin said in his statement, which was obtained without a lawyer.

After learning of the arrest, Philip Taubman, The Times' Washington bureau chief, said, "We are encouraged that the police appear to be making progress in their investigation and hope that anyone involved in the brutal assault on David will be identified and brought to justice."

[phusion]

132. ahh

didn't catch that! :rofl:

[Marie26]

147. Washington Post story has more info

He confessed to beating Mr. Rosenbaum & will be charged w/felony murder.

This part is just sad: "Michael C. Hamlin was arrested shortly after 6 p.m. when he walked into the 7th District police station in the 2400 block of Alabama Avenue SE, which is in the block where he lives, and asked why "my face is on TV," police said... Hamlin walked into the police station last night wearing the same dark jacket, with his first name sewed onto a chest patch, that he had been wearing in a surveillance tape, police said." No criminal mastermind here. This also explains why they had to transfer him to another police station for questioning.

He used the credit card more than 7 times that weekend. And he started using the credit card instantly, within minutes of the assault, to get gas for his getaway. :eyes: Not a very cautious criminal. This must mean he was the person who assaulted Mr. Rosenbaum, unless he somehow managed to get the credit card within minutes of the mugging, & also been in the same neighborhood. "More than $1,300 worth of goods was charged to the cards, including purchases of laundry detergent and parts for Hamlin's Cadillac, which was recovered last night on Naylor Road SE, police said." So he basically killed a man so he could buy spare parts & laundry detergent. It's petty, cruel & stupid. This probably does deserve a felony murder charge.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/12/AR2006011201890.html

[im10ashus]

148. Thanks for the post.

He's not the sharpest tool in the shed, it appears.

[Marie26]

188. Sure!

Hope it helps. No, not the brightest bulb in the box, apparantly.

[alcibiades_mystery]

153. That''s where it is unclear

The man was not killed outright by the suspect and his accomplice. That's clear enough. He died after numerous delays and some incompetence by medical staff. So, they robbed hiom for petty shit, and smashed him with a tire iron or some such, but I don't see an intent to kill or even a knowledge that he had been killed (the use of the credit card for so long afterwards speaks against the knowledge that they'd killed a guy, and, in fact, Rosenbaum wasn't dead yet by the time the card was rejected). It's manslaughter, in my book, though the utterly stupid felony murder charge will no doubt be applied.

[LisaL]

154. Don't rob anyone, beat them to death to steal their crap-and

felony murder charges won't apply to you. Seems rather simple, doesn't it?

[alcibiades_mystery]

155. Since you are clearly

operating as a fanatic on this question, and refusing to answer questions put to you, and preferring to repeat trite platitudes, I'm well and truly done responding to your numerous nonsenses.

[Marie26]

158. I don't think he meant to kill him.

But I do believe that he didn't care. He didn't use his fists, but a tire iron or bat (apparantly) against an elderly man. He had to know that could have deadly consequences. I doubt they stuck around long enough to check on his condition. I doubt they gave a second thought as to whether he was alive or not - this guy was so reckless that he could easily have tried to use the card even if he believed the man was dead. Felony murder is appropiate here, in my opinion, because the man's death is directly traceable to this mugger's actions. I really do understand what you're saying about felony murder - it's a weird law & sometimes used to railroad people that had nothing to do w/the actual homicide. But this suspect was directly responsible for the man's death; so that makes a difference to me. And yeah, there was bad medical care, but we don't know that good care would've changed the result. They might've lowered the charges if the victim was less prominent, so that seems somewhat unfair. But a good defense lawyer could still plea-bargain it down to a lesser charge. You might think felony murder is a stupid charge (and I might agree), but it does exist & the prosecutor has a right to use it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

159. I agree

The charge exists and the prosecutor has tghe right to use it. I also agree that these two douchebags didn't give a flying fuck what happened to Mr. Rosenbaum, and they directly caused his death. And I certainly agree that they deserve severe punishment. Again, though, this strikes me more as manslaughter or murder 2 at the most. I think the felony murder statute is severely flawed. It exists, but is overused.

[LisaL]

168. I find it appropriate, because it's committed during robbery.

These people put more value on a few lousy bucks than on the human life. I don't think they should be running freely on the street.

[alcibiades_mystery]

169. Hold it now

When did I say that they should be "running freely on the street"??? Oh, that's right, never. If you can't argue honestly, it's probably because you have no argument. We all know your position. You seem to be able only to repeat it, and not defend it.

[LisaL]

171. We all know your position too. That haven't shut you up.

[alcibiades_mystery]

181. The only difference being that I explain mine

and use normal English grammar?

[LisaL]

184. Pardon me, but English is not my native language.

So, you will have to deal with an abnormal English grammar.

[alcibiades_mystery]

186. There's still the little matter of actually explaining your position, then

Or is providing reasons foreign to you as well?

[LisaL]

161. I am not sure there are any "they". The guy probably acted alone.

It appears that videos show only him and no one else using the stolen credit cards.
And since his actions show a complete disregard for human life, felony murder charges are clearly appropriate.

[Marie26]

162. Apparantly there was an accomplice

Though there's not much info about that at all. "Police also declined to say whether Hamlin provided them with any information on the second person involved in the attack."

[LisaL]

165. Interesting. So, accomplice was smarter than Mr. Hamlin,

and didn't show his face on camera.

[Marie26]

187. Suspected accomplice arrested in murder of 'Times' reporter

Looks like it, but he was just caught anyway. I guess this ties up all the loose ends in this case.

WASHINGTON (AP) — A second suspect in the beating death of veteran New York Times reporter David Rosenbaum was arrested Friday night and charged with felony murder.

The suspect, Percy Jordan Jr., is a cousin of Michael Hamlin, who was arrested Thursday and was also charged with felony murder in Rosenbaum's death. Metropolitan Police Department Sgt. John Johnson would not comment on whether Hamlin gave his cousin's name to police or whether Jordan had confessed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2041211

[im10ashus]

160. I don't think I am following you here.

You think that because he "didn't mean to kill him" it's only manslaughter and not felony murder? He may not have intended to kill him and I would say in my book murder committed during a crime should be a felony charge.

[alcibiades_mystery]

164. It is a felony either way

I'm disputing that it is equivalent to murder 1, which is how the felony murder statute cashes out. Yes, that is the law, but I don't fucking like it and I think it is overused. I was once dismissed from a jury because I refused in voir dire to accept the premise that a defendant could be guilty of felonmy murder under the law, even though this particular defendant hadn't killed anybody, and hadn't even known - by the police's own argument - that his partner in a burglary had killed anybody (though the partner had). It is not obvious to me that if someone is killed in the commission of another crime that the defendant should be charged with the equivalent of first degree murder. It's the law, but I don't buy it in all cases (in some cases, I do assent to the charge, as I mentioned above).

[im10ashus]

166. Whew!

Now I see. I agree with you then. Good post. :-)

[LisaL]

170. What do you hope for when you hit someone from behind

with a tire iron or a baseball bat? I mean, clearly, you will either cause some serious head trauma and even death. That said, why shouldn't this be murder?
Mr. Rosenbaum is dead, he was killed for his wallet, but that was not murder? Then WTF was it?

[Nikki Stone 1]

150. Recommended

:kick:

[greiner3]

172. It doesn't make sense to me either;

:shrug:

[Dr Fate]

174. Dont get out the foil hats until HE has an "accident." n/t

n/t

[LisaL]

175. He is not going to have an accident. It's pretty clear he is an

actual culprit, considering he started using Mr. Rosenbaum's credit card very soon after the attack, and pretty close to the place where the attack took place. Not everything is this big giant conspiracy, and this clearly appears to be just a case of mugging turned murder.

[Dr Fate]

176. I agree- but not everything is a coincidence either.

It is "plausible" that smart hit men might just hire junkies/muggers to do their dirty work.

I cannot think of a better alibi.

If *I* can think of it in 2 minutes, than a professional hit-man could come up with it after years of refining his "trade."

I tend to agree with ya, but I'm just saying...

[alcibiades_mystery]

182. Do smart hit men usually leave the job so unfinished

that it takes their victims two days and conveniently incompetent health care workers to finish them off? That must be the new "slow offing" method they've been talking about on all the Mensa Hit Man web communities....

[Dr Fate]

185. If so then WE ARE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS, PEOPLE!!!!

But seriously, what if the intent was to injure or itimidate, and it went too far?

I find conspiracy theories fascinating- especially the untrue ones! They are a symptom of a government that constantly lies & tells secrets.

Arguably, it is understandable that people will "fill inthe blanks" when the government constantly hides things from its citizens...

[AlGuest]

194. urban legends

Today's conspiracy theories are tomorrow's truths to many people.
Refer to the "04 election was stolen" threads for good examples.

:tinfoilhat:

[helderheid]

197. have a nice stay

[Dr Fate]

198. A great example- Bush and the media lied so much during 2000...

...and the following 4 years that it is arguable that they lied concerning the '04 election results as well. Especially when you combine the dishonesty & secrecy with all the reports of harassment "glitches" and "irregularites" that even various media and politicians admitted were present.

There certainly was no investigation by the government or the MSM- so, citizens "fill in the blanks" with their own evidence & theories.

Welcome to the patch-work "reality" of Bush's world.

178. for a laugh you should watch this trailer

Albert Brooks comedy, Looking for comedy in the Muslim World - it is funny.

Ok I am changing the subject.


http://wip.warnerbros.com/lookingforcomedy/trailerplay.html?

[Rex]

193. They could have booked him right there.

Patsy.

[Time for change]

195. I agree that this sounds terribly suspicious

Looks like this might be one more Bush victim added to the list:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5495235