How you can help spread neo-nazi talking points and see their ads on DU

[ConsAreLiars]

The point of the right-wing propagandists is to frame the debate, as well as simply to propagate the big lie. On the net this works a lot like any form of advertising or mind control. As long as the message gets repeated, it really doesn't matter if the dittohead repeating it approves or disapproves. It displaces other forms of analysis or discussion. And it means that on some subjects the first reaction of more people is recall and repetition of that message.

We see this quite often on DU, where the unwitting victims of this form of propaganda respond with one-line comments that are no more than a literal repetition of the main right-wing catch phrase, often with a "sarcasm" disclaimer or other indication that by repeating it they do not intend to endorse it. But in effect, that mere repetition is all that is needed or desired by those who do propaganda work for the corporatists.

On the net this has the additional effect of changing how search engines respond to queries and rank the results. Every time someone posts a link to FreaksInPublic, that thread and that site gets a boost in the rankings when relevant queries are put into search engines. They map out the numbers of links to each source page, and the more links there are the closer to the top of the listing that particular page will appear. So if you want to help assure that "discussions" on that nazi-fundie board are more likely to appear on page 1 of the some other net user's inquiry, be sure to post those links as many places as possible. "Google bombs" are an extreme case of how this works.

In terms of Google's ads, the process is a bit different, but again, it doesn't matter if a thread is pro or con on any particular subject. If you want to bring KKKulter or Insanity or Loofah Guy into the discussion and mention them by name, the adSense server will respond by bringing us all ads for their books. The DU admins can undo that kind of unwanted intrusion by filtering them out one by one, but a better solution is not to "request" those ads in the first place by devoting time and space here with discussions of their latest insults or lies. And by refraining from repeating and spreading their messages, you also weaken that message and undermine that propaganda.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

1. Orrrrrrrrrrr, We Can Just Care Less About A Petty Friggin Ad.

And as far as pages coming up in results goes, great! Let someone searching for something on the dark side be directed here for some truth and wisdom instead. I got no problem with that.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

2. Psychooooooo!

No offense, but have you taken your meds today?

You're really paranoid.

Oh, and by the way...

The world changed after 9/11. :sarcasm:

[ConsAreLiars]

5. Excellent analysis.

Your insight and intelligence is apparent to all. Shines out like a beacon, etc.

Apart from that, what exactly do you think is wrong about my comments on how propaganda works, or how search engines order their results? Guessing here, but it seems you disagee with something I've said. Or maybe it was a parody post, simply mimicking what a freak might say. Maybe you can elaborate, since you (maybe) disagree about something.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

13. I agree, my analysis was weak.

In fact, its utter simplicity and lack of clarification was a perfect way to neutralize your overstretched, overwrought, over-thought analysis.

Your basic premise is wrong. There is no organized attempt to have right-wing pages come out first in search results. There is no premeditated attempt by right-wing organizations to have their ads flashed on DU. This is your mind stringing things together -- overthinking (or overanalysis) is the word I'd use.

Can it not be as simple as the fact that Ann Coulter ads are showing up because online entrepreneurs are trying to sell Ann Coulter books -- and not because they're trying to propagandize DU with Republican propaganda? Advertising products is usually done for the sake of selling products, not for pushing a message.

THAT, my friend, is what the mainstream media is for. You know, newspapers, cable news, and the like. Your paranoid analyses are better suited for that medium.

[ConsAreLiars]

16. I guess I didn't express my views clearly enough.

I said nothing about any "premeditated attempt by right-wing organizations to have their ads flashed on DU." But somehow I left that impression. My apologies for writing so poorly.

What I was trying to get at is that the adSense server looks at the content of a web page in order to determine what ads to place on that page. Not that there is any specific effort to push right-wing ads on DU by nefarious outside forces. A discussion about auto insurance will get ads from insurance pushers. A discussion referencing right-wing authors will get ads from booksellers for those books. Nothing mysterious at all. What appears on DU is an automated response to the content, not a conspiracy. That was the point I tried, and failed, apparently, to make.

The first part of the post, about propaganda and how it works, was more abstract and apparently even harder to understand, so I probably should have left that out.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

21. No, you did.

I just misread or did a poor job of comprehension. However, I think ceasing conversation about right-wing personalities is the wrong approach. You know, know the enemy. And who better to dissect the mindless venom these idiots spew than the intelligent people on DU? These people are framing the debate already, all across the mainstream media. Their frame constitutes the prevailing "reality" in politics, and avoiding what they say or do constitutes evasion of that reality.. We have to fight it head on, because we're the people on the front lines. Who else is going to challenge the pundits and talking heads, if not for politically motivated blogs and forums?

Sure, their ads will pop up more often. And that's why you click them and eat into funds that would otherwise go into spewing more of their communicatory sewage.

[ConsAreLiars]

27. I think we agree.

The ads are a minor thing, an annoyance to some (see the threads whining about them), but that is not the main point. Talking about how bad some right-winger's frothing hatred on some matter or another is one thing. That sort of outrage is natural, but it is essentially just name-calling in return.

But simply repeating those simple slogans does nothing but, well, reinforce their viewpoint. It doesn't work at the conscious level. What it means is that the very first thought one had was the thought that was planted by the propagandists, and even though the poster recognizes it as a lie, it gets repeated and thus reinforced. It's the same principle that says "all publicity is good publicity."

If we are to make our frame the dominant "reality" then simply repeating their slogans is not helpful. Instead of trying to negate their simple-minded slogan by repeating it with a disclaimer, we need to condemn those slogans as anti-human, destructive of the common good, dangerous, or whatever -- according to our values and from the viewpoint of the common good. Repeating the talking point does none of that. If we want to challenge the propaganda then we cannot accept the premises. We in fact hold an entirely different set of values, and this is what makes arguing on their terms a losing game, whether with a sarcasm smilie or a factual rebuttal.

[Joe Chi Minh]

41. You didn't right poorly. On the contrary, what you wrote scared

certain people sh*tless, precisely because it lays bare their squalid little game.

[madmusic]

29. ConsAreLiars has a good point

Find it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1293113&mesg_id=1293113

They WILL use DU if they can and why the hell shouldn't they? This is a war, after all, that's been going on for maybe 30 years, though the Dems didn't know it until recently. That's why so many people think "liberal" is a bad word.

[Liberal Dose]

37. You're right. The only war the cons care about is the one they have waged

against US. They've been fighting tooth and nail while all this time our leadership has been busy trying to play nice. I'm not saying that we should all fight dirty. I'm saying that we shouldn't be afraid to stand up and fight back against the lies just as fiercely with the truth.
:patriot:

[SeveneightyWhoa]

14. One more point:

You write..
"We see this quite often on DU, where the unwitting victims of this form of propaganda respond with one-line comments that are no more than a literal repetition of the main right-wing catch phrase, often with a "sarcasm" disclaimer or other indication that by repeating it they do not intend to endorse it. But in effect, that mere repetition is all that is needed or desired by those who do propaganda work for the corporatists."

I'm almost hesitant in believing that you're serious about this. Sarcasm on DU, as denoted by use of the sarcasm tag, is just that -- and it is plainly obvious every time that the pusher of this sarcasm, or in your world, "propaganda" by "corporatists", is poking fun at talking points. To understand and fight propaganda talking points, one must first be aware of their existence; the mention of them on DU, with sarcasm tags applied, is far from pushing them on "unwitting victims". It is a recognition of their existence a conscious rebuttal of them.

Unless, of course, you think DU'ers are Bush-like stupid. (Which is pretty stupid. Have faith in the intelligence of your fellow DUers, even if you don't have faith in mine.)

On to my main point... So, who's the "corporatist" propaganda-pusher behind Stephen Colbert? Because judging from your paragraph above, his entire existance is one big right-wing propaganda-pushing scheme. The kids eat his right-wing shit up, don't they? He must be getting paid Hummer-loads of cash from the RNC.

[ConsAreLiars]

22. If you are interested in understanding more about advertising/propaganda

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_share

It is no different than humming a commercial jingle while shopping. It means that the message is getting out and getting repeated. That is all advertisers/propagandists need.

See also Lakoff: http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/04/01/int04003.html

[SeveneightyWhoa]

25. Okay, but I doubt "mind share" applies here.

Do you foresee yourself bringing up Trinity Online Seminary anytime soon, whether in a conversation or in your head as you shop for groceries?

Again, these are mostly small companies/organizations buying ads to attract website visitors. You're right about propaganda and mind share and things of that nature (as Arnold Swarzenegger would say), but they cannot fairly and accurately be connected to Google Ads at this point in time.

[ConsAreLiars]

28. This was again my fault for combining two "messages" in one post

I don't think the ads make much of a difference, other than taking up some space. I wanted to say a few words about how they reflect what gets written here, but should have done that in a separate post.

The "mind share" concept is a fundamental of commercial advertising, but it also is a fundamental of political "advertising," better known as propaganda. And my comments about this were intended to refer to how we at DU can better propagate our messages instead of theirs.

[jumpoffdaplanet]

3. what if names are subtly misspelled?

Aannn Coalter is you know who

Or Man Cou--lter

[ConsAreLiars]

9. In those cases the adSense server

will not recognize the name. My guess is that it is "smart" enough to do the same sort of thing Google does with common misspellings, like leaving out a vowel or reversing a pair, and then make a high-probability guess if that guess links to one of their ads. But variations like I and you have used would not be recognised.

[zeemike]

4. Wow K&R

You have spoken well and I take it you have studied the writings of Gooble because you are dead on about the repetitiousness of propaganda. Gooble used those same methods for the Nazi.
But I was not aware of how the internet and google works and i am happy to hear your explanation.
This needs serious discussion.

[karlrschneider]

6. I Googled Gooble and got

Gobbledegook...


;-)

[omega minimo]

10. gggggggggg

:rofl:

[AlCzervik]

11. i got this

.....to block.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

18. Try Goobles!

The poster "zeemike", clearly not German, forgot the 's' in the name of zee infamous German propagandist.

GOOBLES! GOOGLES! GOBBLEDEGOOGLEGOOBLE!

[SeveneightyWhoa]

17. So Google = Nazi Germany

Or perhaps I'm mistaken..

Is Google actually "Gooble" in this scenario?

Wouldn't that make Nazi Germany ... DU??! Since that's where Gooble/Google is pushing his/their/its propaganda? :wow:

[Ian David]

7. I know you mean well, but...

[ConsAreLiars]

12. Ohhh! No! --- Sorry!

Assure kitty it is no big deal, just a few words on how things work, and occasionally getting some unpleasant ad content is a pretty trivial matter for most of us. But if kitty or any of kitty's friends get freaked by the ads, using Firefox as a browser with the Ad-Block extension will eliminate them (the ads, not the kitties).

[AlCzervik]

8. sometimes an ad is just an ad.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

15. Sometimes DUers are born to overanalyze..

This is a case of paralysis by analysis, my friends.

[BrewerJohn]

19. So then we have to modulate our words on DU

or else we might wind up with RW ads on the site?

I don't think I like those choices.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

20. You have another choice.

Don't focus all your energy on viewing the ads? Or just ignore them altogether? That's what I do. It's not difficult.

[BrewerJohn]

23. I'm pretty good at ignoring ads, thanks

at least those that don't flash or animate. But I still know they're there.
And I don't like knowing that there are ads on here that are not in keeping
with the intent of DU.

I have absolutely no problem with ads that are consciously targeted (as in,
by a conscious human being) at this audience, like the ones on the Latest page.
But I am of the opinion that this data-mining business is bogus.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

24. Hey, pick your battles, man.

If you're concerned about "data-mining", there's larger, shall we say, more ILLEGAL, and more intrustive issues that deserve your attention at the current time..

[Joe Chi Minh]

43. So you don't think there are already people taking care of that.?

And Duers should give the Neocons an even break on some issues? Destroying their talking points is very important.

Unless you are an operative, you clearly haven't understood how too many Duers are routinely jerked around by Neocon operatives, drawing attention to their talking points.

In fact, I have to admit that I believe most of them are at best really beltway bandits or Clarkies, but if there's just one or two, as a matter of priniciple, while we have the time, inclination and opportunity, it's good for genuine lefties to learn about this framing weapon they've used so successfully for so long; peddling transparent lies as common knowledge.

[dweller]

26. are you kidding?

i mean, this is a site that the members can't even take the simple step to post a PRINT edition of a link (that has usually NO links to ads) on a regular basis. That is one simple step, one click away, that could be taken regularly to ease the bandwidth and not pay homage to corporate control.

sigh. really simple folks.

and once again. . . what ads? I don't see no stinkin ads.
dp

[Tin Man]

30. I got it... We must never mention the subject about which we are speaking!

...Man, holding a discussion is sure gonna get confusing around here! :crazy:

[Orsino]

31. There's a simpler fix.

DU doesn't need to be hooked up to a Google bot.

"People need to watch what they say" rankles with me as a solution to a problem that didn't exist before the Google deal.

[rman]

36. That fix isn't up to us.

DU is not democratic.

[symbolman]

32. Hey, this could be fun

"Let's Play 'STUMP THE GOOGLEBOT'"!

We can make up nicknames for those we wish to talk about and then like Subliminal MAN, encase the nickname with a Progressive name..

For instance, O'Rielly would be 'loofa'... so to make the GOOGLEBOT send us great ads we'd make a sentence something like this,

"I was watching the JFK 'loofta' JFK show the other night and he said the same stupid shit over and over.."

Would that work? :)

[Swamp Rat]

34. Or we can send Grovelbot to kick Googlebot's ass

:D

[symbolman]

38. LOL!

He BAD :)

[Tin Man]

39. Bahawahawa... Good one, Swampy!

Kinda makes me nostalgic for rainy Saturday afternoons...

[rosesaylavee]

33. But on the other hand,

I would imagine that the names GORE, Kerry, Clinton, Feingold, Richard Clarke, etc. are mentioned more than Man Coul---ter and O'Lielly et al. So it is likely that we are doing more good than harm in our posts.

I think you have made a good point about Adsense - as the culture here at DU is adaptable and there are code words for the Repubs already - educating the general DU poster and requesting that all use the Repubs nicknames shouldn't be too hard as most do that already.

Overall - good post.

K & R

[lostnfound]

35. Ads aside, your post is a fascinating reminder not to dig the ruts deeper

I'm picturing water flowing over the same rut; the deeper it erodes the less likely it is to change its course. Just keeps carrying the mind to the same places. Original thought is so much better.

[Warren Stupidity]

40. At the risk of restating the obvious

while I appreciate your sentiment, open discussions of right wing propaganda memes and talking points is a very good idea, it is perhaps a key value of the endless discussions here on DU. By debating and deconstructing the right wing mythology we create alternative framings and counters to the endless bullshiut stream from the MSM. This site is an incredible resource of well researched analysis of rightwing bullshit. If we do that at the cost of some inappropriate google ads, I have another solution: get off your ass and donate every donation cycle and put this board back on an ad-free funding basis.

[sweetheart]

42. Adblock - what ads?

I don't plug right wing memes, but thanks for the thoughtpolice readout.