"Hate not Heritage" - Why a dog breeder just lost our business.

[benburch]

We have been looking for a second dachshund so that our current one can have a companion. One dog breeder downstate has puppies that we have been looking at and considering until today. Today we looked at their web site, and in the current crop of puppy pictures, they are all wearing a bandana covered with Confederate Battle Flags.

That was a deal breaker.

That symbol was 100% dead until the Civil Rights Movement started, and was resurrected only to symbolize White opposition to the end of the Jim Crow laws, Voting Rights, Affirmative Action, and School Integration/Desegregation. It NOT, as some of these liars maintain, about Southern Pride or Southern Heritage. It is a White Power symbol pure and simple, just as is the Klansman's Robe or the Burning Crucifix.

For those that might be confused, imagine how you would react if somebody had a German Nazi flag with the Swastika to celebrate their Heritage as the grandchildren of an SS Officer...

I will never patronize any business that displays the Confederate Battle Flag. Period.

[SunDrop23]

1. I grew up in the South and still live here and agree 100%

It is shameful.

[Warpy]

23. I spent my high school years in the south and disagree somewhat

because I remember that flag as a declaration of "Hunh, nobody gonna push ME around." Yeah, it's a reliable twit indicator, but it's more an arrogant swagger twit indicator to me than a racist one, although the two do go hand and hand a majority of the time. It's just some of the macho twits who display that ugly flag are biker types who aren't particularly racist.

They are universally sexist and homophobic, though.

[SunDrop23]

51. Truth from the initial post

That symbol was 100% dead until the Civil Rights Movement started, and was resurrected only to symbolize White opposition to the end of the Jim Crow laws, Voting Rights, Affirmative Action, and School Integration/Desegregation. It NOT, as some of these liars maintain, about Southern Pride or Southern Heritage. It is a White Power symbol pure and simple, just as is the Klansman's Robe or the Burning Crucifix.

It is to me a disgraceful symbol. Racist with a dash of genocide thrown in for good measure.

[SeaBob]

2. Confederate flag

founds like a good idea to me

[beltanefauve]

3. Good for you!

And good for you for speading the word like wildfire about these people. They need to go down in a big way!

[Liberal Veteran]

4. What I find most amusing about people who fly the confederate flag

...is they are usually the loudest people proclaiming how much they love the US and how patriotic they are yet see no contradiction between their claims of patriotism and flying a flag that represents treason to the United States of America.

[Gormy Cuss]

47. Snap! n/t

[Igel]

64. It's because symbols like flags are

indexical. They don't have any meaning apart from what they're given. Any. Zilch.

When people insist that theirs is the only right interpretation of a symbol, they're insisting that not only should everybody think as they do, they're (counterfactually) asserting that everybody actually does think as they do. Perhaps the others are just too stupid to realize it, but mostly the only reason is that they're being duplicitous.

It's why there are periodic anti-flag-burning amendments from time to time. The US flag, to some, can only be a symbol the best of American ideals or the aspirations of the American people, and to burn it is to disrespect these ideals and aspirations. The people burning it can only hate freedom, and if they don't know it, they're lying haters of freedom. For others, it's a symbol of injustices perpetrated by the US government, and those defending it are defending oppression and injustice; if they don't admit it, they're lying defenders of oppression and injustice.

But that paragraph asserts that the same symbol can have different meanings to different people. When everybody knows it can only mean one--anybody who says otherwise is a liar, and should be punished. The problem is that both sides figure they're the only ones that get to decide not just what may be thought, but actually get to decide what is thought.

It's the same reason that some Muslim fundies believe that the Burger King frozen yogurt swirl could only have been an intentional offense against Islam. After all, *everybody* knows how to write 'Allah' in Arabic, and all the calligraphic variants. My two-year-old was recently talking to his mother, and he got really upset: it was clear to him what he was pointing at and what 'it' meant, why was mommy so obtuse as to not understand him? (Of course, they were talking by phone, but surely she knew what he was looking at? After all, *he* did.) We mostly grow out of this foolishness. But we lapse from time to time.

Apply this kind of reasoning to the Confederate flag, and one would have to admit the meaning of the flag might change rather significantly based upon the context in which it's used, and the interpration of the people actually flying or displaying it. But that's obviously wrong, we all know that regardless of the reasons people think they're flying it, it's because they're all racist; if they don't acknowledge it, it's because they're lying racists. But we knew that, so all we've done is (circularly) "prove" what we knew to be the case.

[GrumpyGreg]

5. You should have taken one of the puppies just to get it out of there.

[benburch]

6. And give them $600?

Nope.

[GrumpyGreg]

9. I was kidding --I don't blame you for not doing business

with them.

[ruggerson]

7. Ben, most top breeders would not have a website to begin with

Some do, but many are just glorified back yard breeders or small puppy mills.

Best bet: go to a local dog show and hang out at the dachsund ring. Talk to a couple of the exhibitors and then find out who they can refer you to for puppies. If you get a breeding out of show quality animals, you can be far more sure that they have all their health clearances. If you know all this, my apologies.

[sweetheart]

13. not so sure there

As a breeder, i don't believe show dogs necessarily represent the
best blood lines. A lot has to do with qualities that someone with
lots of breed exposure can use to mix good genetics. Yet this is falling
in to the republican trap that its all about genetics, and as much as you
avoid breed diseases from inbreeding, certainly!

It has a heck of a lot to do with the way the breeder cares for the pups
in the first few weeks, as if they are handled like baby children, they
grow much smarter, learn faster, never bite, and are prepared to live as a
human family member. As well, the initial diet as their bodies double in
size over and over again, is critical to avoiding cancer and degenerate
diseases in later age. Both of these factors cost time and money (money),
and i do it out of love, but so much depends on finding a breeder who
knows the dog breed and who provides the kind of care you would expect
given to a child who will live with you for 1-2 decades.

Lots of people who show dogs are doing it for the social stygma they get
by winning, like tiger woods' dad, or like the william's sister's dad...
pushing the dogs to be perfect... the quality does not always make for
good love and maternal care, that, just cuz a dog follows orders and has
been broken to jump throught he hoop at the right time. I don't break my
dogs, not at all. Its not how i raise creatures i love.

If you have a really awesome champion, why bother to go to a show and meet
lots of people, when you can just walk on the beach and enjoy life. Show
people are in it for something, and it does not make the dogs that go to
such events necessarily preferred.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. Is there a Dachshund Association?

I ask because my neighbors used to raise Great Pyranese, and belonged to that association. They had a rescue service for Pyrs that were "orphaned" because their owners didn't want them or could no longer care for them. My neighbors sold pups that were show quality and pet quality, with the stipulation that those of pet quality must be spayed/neutered before they would give the owners the papers on the dogs.

[sweetheart]

35. ? in germany?

http://www.dachshund.de/

I find the european bloodlines, given the obvious roots, can offer better genetics.

[xultar]

14. Try a Doxie rescue site too. Petfinder may work. But go to a Doxie

breeders association certified breeder.

Be careful.

[American Tragedy]

26. I don't agree

I have seen literally hundreds of show breeder webpages, for every variety in existence - it's a good way to show off one's wins. It's not exactly a challenge to tell the difference between them and say, Wizard of Claws or something like that.

That having been said, anyone who dresses their dogs in Confederate flags is unlikely to be producing Champions.

[TahitiNut]

27. Established veterinarians can be a good source of recommendations too.

When my (now ex-)wife and I were looking for a Labrador Retriever, we went to field trials and got references to both breeders and veterinarians. We then went to the veterinarians and got cross-references. We found a breeder that way, and got the absolute best dog I've ever known. He was my pal for nearly 13 years - and NEVER disappointed me. He was so well-behaved that friends used to invite me over and (explicitly) tell me to bring him.

It was also a reliable way to find a good veterinarian for him. He got good care.

[lonestarnot]

8. Poor little weenies.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Did they sell cute little white sheets and pointy cap accessories?

[SmokingJacket]

11. I don't know where you live, Ben, but...

here's a dachshund rescue site with some very cute little weenie dogs: http://www.almosthomerescue.org/

My mother recently adopted two rescue dogs, and they are the sweetest dogs *ever*.

[Neecy]

18. That's a good suggestion...

I have two rescue Pomeranians and I wouldn't trade 'em for the world.

You can also do a breed-specific search for rescues using your zip code on
http://www.petfinder.com. I see a lot of Doxies listed there.

This is my two-year old chocolate Pom wearing not Klan or treason regalia but a good, red-blooded Oakland A's bandana.

[xultar]

12. I live in GA and I thank you. I don't understand what is wrong with

people today

I was thinking the same thing today. I live near a lake and every year a guy comes and parks his RV with CF flag shit to sell.

Why do I have to look @ that Jews don't have to be confronted by the swastika every day. Thousands of blacks were killed under that flag and millions more during slavery times for what that flag represents even to this day.

When I see that flag I think of all the young black men who were chased and hung as people waved the flag out of their pickup trucks.

It's sad.

That flag represents murder and hate to me. Murder of african americans and hatred towards african americans. The only heritage it represents is the heritage of racism. People who display it want to remind us of the good ole days where it was o.k. to hang a black man for talking to a white woman or it was o.k to beat a black child for touching a white child.

I SAY NO AND NEVER to that heritage.

[IronLionZion]

62. african-american

many of my friends who happen to be black don't like the term. I find it interesting that you would use it.

The controversy is that not all black americans came from africa, not all africans are black, and not all black people who left africa came to america! I'm Indian myself, and some of the Indian people I know look black and are as dark as a person could possibly be but are still not african-american. In fact, some black people have thought I was black after being out in the sun a long time!

sorry to go off topic. That's another discussion. :hi:

[xultar]

66. I don't like it either. You can tell in my post I used Black too.

When I use it I'm being lazy.. I'm not African. I'm also not black. I'm brown. There is a split in the Black community about the usage of the term African American.

[_testify_]

15. Slightly off topic, but why not adopt a puppy from a local shelter?

Your dachsund will never know the difference. Neither will you! :)

[lonestarnot]

21. Hell just drive down the street. There is a lonely thirsty hungry critter

within a mile of your home.

[_testify_]

22. True enough.

FSM knows they've figured out where I live!

[RubyDuby in GA]

16. As someone who has had dachshunds all her life, I recommend this group

www.daretorescue.com

[RoyGBiv]

17. To clarify ...

The red, white, and bue battle flag bearing the St. Andrews Cross and 13 stars was not even 1% dead at the time the Civil Rights Movement started, unless of course we backdate the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement to 1860 or so. It was, however, primarily a symbol associated with soldiers until the Civil Rights era of the 50's and 60's when it was indeed put to the uses you mention.

About the breeder, as already mentioned, that was probably a puppy mill and should have been avoided for that reason as well.

[hlthe2b]

19. Just a slight correction..

When displyed in a museum (where it belongs), the flag CAN be a sign of southern heritage. Outside a museum, when flown, it clearly becomes nothing more than the symbol of white opposition to the end of the Jim Crow laws, Voting Rights, Affirmative Action, and School Integration/Desegregation. That, after all was the perversion placed on the symbol, when it was brought back in the 60s to many state flags and the symbol of racists everywhere.

I have no problem with the flag as long as it is confined to museums. Per my sigline, I strongly believe in remembering and learning from history.

[RoyGBiv]

20. Battlefields ...

I'm assuming you'd extend the definition of museum to battlefields in this case? Various CW battlefields are, in my view, the most appropriate place for its display.

I guess my apartment is something of a museum. I have several, along with several Union battleflags and different variations of Confederate battleflags I own, and then there's the artwork I have on my walls.

[hlthe2b]

25. Absolutely....Displayed for the purposes of history, study, etc.

My Dad was a civil war buff for a time--and drug my sister and I to so many battlefields and historial sites, well, we were young.... But, I always enjoyed the video presentations at the larger visitor's centers, when they told individual stories of life and struggle during that period. There is nothing more compelling and tragic, than a people divided to fight each other. Many lessons yet to learn, I'd say.

[seabeyond]

24. i agree. my father was defending those showing cofederate flag

i told him, your son has a confederate flag sticker on truck. he grew up i calif. he has no hertige that he is honoring. the only statement he is making with that confederate flag is white power. or in my opinion, bigotry. cannot be interpreted or justified i any other way. that is the message of the flag.

my father agreed

[Obamanaut]

38. I must be extremely dense, because I never thought of it in the

way you just explained it so simply. Thank you. And I've lived in the south all my life, so far.

[seabeyond]

49. you are welcome. i live in texas now. after election 2004 the

confederate flag multiplied by such extreme. was one of the huge reasons i pulled kids from christian private school. all of a sudden people had them on their vehicles. scared the heck out of me. people have confederate cell phones..... just everything. one vehicle had a kkk flag on his back windshield. bigotry is now in your face. the republican party has ok'ed it. and the limbaughs and oriellys and hannity's and coulters

[MADem]

28. Aside from the symbolism, it's an IDIOTIC business decision on their part

Clearly they aren't thinking in terms of a broad customer base, otherwise they'd never do such a thing, regardless of their personal views on the matter.

If they're idiotic business people, they're probably not the swiftest dog breeders, either. So you're better off looking elsewhere.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

29. Well, your dachshund is a German breed...

so he COULD wear a swastika bandana. Heritage. :-)

[stepnw1f]

31. I'm Half German

So should I too wear a swastika? Not heritage, but hate. The OP made a great point.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

41. I'm part German. Jewish German.

So the swastika is about my heritage too...rather in the same way as the Confederate flag is about black heritage.

[Critters2]

53. Me, too

And grew up in German American neighborhoods. Every German American I know is mortified by Nazism, and deeply sorry about the Holocaust, etc. No German I know would where a swastika.

[Bossy Monkey]

30. To underscore your "not heritage" part, if it was rectangular, it's

actually a naval jack, used as I recall exactly once during the war. The Army of Northern Virginia's flag (the one usually called the battle flag) was square. I am descended from Confederate veterans and hate the thing like poison; every time I see one I wonder whether I could hit it with a Roman candle. (I wouldn't really do it; just want to.) I hope and assume you let the breeder know why he lost your business.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

32. You are absolutely right

and it is even more repugnant if it happened in downstate Illinois. I lived in that area for nearly 20 years, and there was great pride in the fact that the people there stood with the Union during the Civil War (though there was pro-Confederate sentiment, especially in Union County). I now live in Arkansas, and if someone is proud of their Southern heritage, they display the Stars and Bars, which WAS the official Confederate flag.

I shame anyone around here who flys the battle flag of Northern Virginia because as far as I have been able to ascertain, no Arkansas troops fought under this flag. I tell them they are shaming their ancestors instead of honoring them.

[NoPasaran]

44. Some Arkansans did

The Third Arkansas was for much of the war part of the Texas Brigade in the ANV. There is an Arkansas monument at Gettysburg.

[xchrom]

34. get a little dog from the local shelter.

your doxie won't care -- and you will have done two good deeds with one stone -- not given those evil breeders{hmmm.} money and saved a little ones life.

[mr_hat]

36. Maybe it was just to symbolize the weener dog's rebel spirit.

[PublicRadioVet]

37. I used to think the Stars 'n Bars were harmless...

But the simple fact is that, for African Americans anyway, the Stars 'n Bars are a direct symbol of the American slave state, and there is no way to whitewash or otherwise cleanse this flag of that association. It can't be done. I know a lot of historians will point out that, for most Confederates fighting in the war, it wasn't about slavery, but was rather about a "bullying" North encroaching on Southern states' rights. But in the long view of history, the Civil War is as much about slavery as it is about Union or states rights, and in that war, the Stars 'n Bars were the flag of the slaveholders.

So as much as I understand and appreciate the Southern sentiment that the Stars 'n Bars are a matter of pride and heritage for the South, I think this only applies to the caucasian South. Whites in the North, and West, and blacks everywhere, have a very different take on this flag, and it's not a pretty one, and no amount of apologizing or justification on the part of a Southerner can remove the stain of slavery from this symbol.

[SammyWinstonJack]

39. You could always adopt a rescued dachshund. No politics involved

there. :-) And they need good homes. My little Yorkie was a rescue and she is the sweetest dog I have ever had the privilege of sharing my life with.

[benburch]

40. All the doxie rescues demand a fenced yard...

...which we simply do not have.

[mopinko]

50. had the same problem when i tried to rescue a terrier.

i am pretty sure we would have had less trouble adopting a brown child. no more of that nonsense for me. there are a lot of good people in rescue, but it also attracts a lot of unbalanced folks. my next dog i got from the city pound. they are thrilled just to see one get out. you gotta be kinda hard nosed about that route, tho.

[Critters2]

55. Yeah, rescue groups can be a bitch

I've had three dogs--one a stray who just showed up at my place (in the country--apparently someone "dumped" the greatest dog I've ever known--their loss!), one shelter dog, one breed rescue. The breed rescue people were hard to deal with--home visits, references, a requisite fenced yard! I was lucky that I could meet their standards at the time, but since I live in employer-provided housing, I' now in a home that would not have met their requirements (no fence). Yet, the vegan beagle is happy and healthy.

Still, next time I'll go to a shelter. They have dogs who need homes, and they are more than happy to find a family who would love one of them--fence or no!

I echo those who've recommended petfinder.com Type "dachshund" into the search. You'll probably be pleasantly surprised!

[Raine]

58. Yeah I got my last Standard Poodle

from a breed rescue and they were really picky, had to see pictures of our yard to prove it was fenced etc. and the dog was to wear two name and address tags AT ALL TIMES and like FOREVER. One tag could be ours but the other had to be hers so if we lost the dog she (supposedly) would be notified and then take the dog away from us. Ok the dog wore two tags for about a week then bye bye to hers cause he was OURS especially considering the fact that we also had to give a two hundred dollar donation to her for him. I really loved that dog though, he died a couple of years ago after 12 years with us.

[IronLionZion]

61. But the dachshund could still have some nazi heritage

what if one of his ancestors was owned by a nazi? This stuff is genetic you know. I tend to stay away from dachshunds, dobermans, german shepherds, rottweilers, and all german dogs altogether, just to be safe. Frankly, I think all of their kind should be locked up and sent back to germany.

:sarcasm:

Do you see how silly this is? The politics of adopting a pet?

Dave Chappelle had a skit about racist animals. Mr. Ed was a klan horse. Rin Tin Tin was a police dog during the civil rights movement. and so on. :silly:

The logical next step is to replace the battle flag on dogs with American flags. But as much as I love the American Flag, I sure hope people don't start sticking it everywhere because that leaves it open to damage and desecration. It's bad enough to see the cheap chinese made things on SUV's getting rained on or ripped to shreds.

[yorkiemommie1]

65. two rescued yorkies here

big 'uns. much loved and love much.

[RebelOne]

42. Go to YahooGroups.com and search for Dachshund

rescues in your area. You will find plenty of doggies looking for a home.

[UTUSN]

43. K&R #5 - Excellent. Why did it take so long to get R#5? n/t

[benburch]

45. My wife didn't think anybody would notice this posting at all!

So I am amazed that it made it to #5...

[Vanje]

46. Southern heritae should be celebrated.........

with piles of grits, fried okra, collards with hamhocks, red beans & rice, fried chicken, sweet potato pie, washed down with sweet tea to an accompaniment of well done Delta blues .

[Arugula Latte]

48. Ben -- Did you let the breeder's know your reason?

I think they should hear it!

[benburch]

52. Plan to.

Deciding what to write.

[JCMach1]

54. I stand-up against all flag NAZIs

Whether it's the kind that says don't burn... or this kind

I support this woman's right to stick Weinee dogs in the stars and bars! Way to respect your heritage! :sarcasm:


Flags are just symbols and people attach MANY meanings to symbols. If it offends you, it is your duty to explain why...

[kdpeters]

56. It's not only racist; it's treasonous!!

First and foremost, the Confederacy turned their back and betrayed the USA. There is much I love about being born a Southerner, but I'm damned glad we lost the Civil War. I'm proud to have been born an American. I shudder to think of the alternative. And the same people who wave the Conferate Battle flag as a symbol of southern heritage are the same people who wave the American flag as a show of patriotism. It's hypocritcal. Can't have it both ways.

[Raine]

57. I don't understand businesses

like that who piss off half of their clientele with controversial shit like that. My brother and I were going to buy a used car that we had been looking at then when we went to the guy's place of business he had all these crap repuke signs in the window and one that said "No bozos". We figured that he considered anyone who didn't support his crackpot ideas a "bozo" so we just turned around and left without even going into the office. We didn't want to go against his wishes and enter a "no bozo" free zone. I hope it was worth losing several thousands dollars cause he never sold that car, guess there are lots of us "bozo" democrats around. After-all this is the Los Angeles area so you know plenty of people were pissed off by the idiot. :silly:

[donheld]

59. I hope you told them exactly how you felt.

They need to know how offended you were.

[IronLionZion]

60. *sigh* there are reasons why this issue is controversial

and that's because symbols mean different things to different people. Sure to some people the battle flag is for hate. For others, they just don't know any better. The CSA's national flag was the stars and stripes similar to the USA, and they had the naval jack which is rectangular as well as the controversial square battle flag. But many confederates used their own state's flags since they liked states rights.

As for the klan robes, similar robes have been used during Christian ceremonies in Europe for centuries. The Swastika is actually a good luck symbol for many Hindus and Asians. Hitler stared at it every Sunday at his Catholic church and became obsessed with it. The burning cross was a symbol of war throughout northern Europe and quite a few Christians were burned alive on the cross throughout history.

Bottom line: Symbols mean different things to different people, and people often don't understand how symbols originated or what they have meant throughout history.

The fact that you feel the battle flag is for hate and someone else thinks it's their heritage, doesn't mean that you are wrong or that they are wrong. It's a difference of opinion and you have the right to not do business with them just like they have a right to not do business with you for displaying a peace sign which had it's origins in violence and torture.



Senator George Allen's battle flag is undoubtedly for hate because he has no heritage in the South and he has a colorful history.(no pun intended)

[calimary]

63. I hope you contacted them and let them know this.

I'm glad you're not patronizing them anymore, but if they don't know why, your message won't be sent.

[stanwyck]

67. Deal breaker for me, too

I live in Atlanta. If you drive up to my house wanting to sell me firewood or lawn services, don't have that flag on your vehicle because I won't hire you. And when we renovated our house, I told our general contractor, you're in charge -- hire who you need to as subcontractors -- I just don't want to come home and find a pickup truck in front of my house with a Confederate flag sticker. That's the deal.

[spacelady]

68. Would this be affiliated with Ben George DVM in Alabama, he is

running for office now.

On edit: NOT an endorsement, just a heads up in case anybody wants to express an opinion to him--he is a very outspoken proponent of Confederate Heritage here in South Alabama.

[Sparkly]

69. Thank you!!! nt

[benburch]

70. And here is the reply I got from the breeder...

From: "K-Dachs ....Teri & Steve" <[e-mail]>
To: "Ben Burch" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why we won't be buying a puppy from you.
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 20:56:28 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0

Ben

And you really need to lighten up!!!!!! There are many things in this =
world worth stating your opinion on, a puppy with a scarf is not one of =
them. Thats the reason we don't let people like YOURSELF adopt our =
puppies. Oh and by the way, this is America...love it or leave it.

Teri & Steve



www.kdachs.com

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ben Burch=20
To: [e-mail]=20
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 8:21 PM
Subject: Why we won't be buying a puppy from you.


Folks,

I'm sorry, but you really turned us off by posing your puppies with =20
that Confederate Battle Flag scarf. To us, and many others, this is =20
a symbol of slavery, of opposition to civil rights, and of racial =20
hatred.

Sincerely,

-Ben Burch

Just about what I expected...

[Sparkly]

71. How predictable!!!

"love it or leave it." :eyes: