FIFTY-THREE THOUSAND NAMES on a Wall in Washington.

[Redstone]

Is this what we stay the course for in Iraq?

Is this why we finish the job in Iraq?

Another Wall? With another fifty-three thousand names?

Is it?

Redstone

[knowbody0]

1. lessons not learned

our history sucks. our future looks like chaos or submission.

happy memorial day Redstone

[Redstone]

2. Thank you, kO. This is not an easy holiday.

Redstone

[stevedeshazer]

3. All the more reason to fly your flag, PROUDLY - in opposition.

[Redstone]

4. Or not. Those 53,000 didn't die for a flag. They died for NOTHING.

Redstone

[Kenergy]

12. They didn't die for nothing Redstone

Don't even say that. Viet Nam woke a lot of people like me up to how fucked up and corrupt
this federal government really is.

[Redstone]

13. And how did that work out? We're now in ANOTHER war for NOTHING.

We haven't learned a goddamn thing.

Young Americans are dying for nothing again.

We've learned nothing.

I thank you for your words of solace, but we haven't learned.

Redstone

[AuntPatsy]

25. I think it's pretty obvious we haven't learned a thing.

[HereSince1628]

34. I agree, the lists of names are the receipts documenting the cost of

the nation's tolerance to political leadership that excercise the military option.

Carved into granite, caste in bronze, these tallies are placed throughout our landscape, and ought to teach a grim lesson. But, their meaning is lost in such absurdities as "Happy Memorial Day," and days and days of old war movies which by and large send out a message that the day is about the glory of the deads' patriotism and not the terrible sacrifice imposed on them by the wretched judgement of so few.

It seems to be a lesson never learned: Wars end when enough is too much. The walls and plaques innumerate just how many deaths were enough for each generation. And there is no end in sight to the erection of these monuments for it seems that every generation must test its tolerance to the killing and maiming of militarism.

[samplegirl]

19. I agree

we all should be flying impeach flags!!!

[TomInTib]

5. I served alongside 62 of them.

And I think about them every day.

Even now.

[Redstone]

8. Every single day. And so it will be. Yes?

Redstone

[YellowRubberDuckie]

6. Iraq has made a mockery of everyone who actually died for our country....

And not oil. :shrug:
Duckie

[Kingshakabobo]

7. Now you can take a nice vacation to Viet Nam and .......

........eat Kentucky Fried Chicken.

53,000 dead. For what?

[Redstone]

9. For NOTHING.

Redstone

[Kenergy]

10. Lessons not learned is right

Hard to believe there are so many people in this country that don't have a clue.
A Nam vet I worked with made the remark that Americans are the dumbest people in the world.
Except for the people here in DU, I tend to agree with him.

Thank you for your service Redstone...the point you're making in your post was not lost on me.

[madokie]

11. They are going to give them democracy or kill 'em all trying

I think the shrub&co* are aware of the big mess that they are in and have us in but they think they have all the answers, like they have started believing their own bullshit.

[1620rock]

16. Oh I'll fly the flag.......upside down with red paint dripping from it.

[PublicRadioVet]

18. Please don't

It won't bring the troops home any sooner, and many troops would find such a display offensive.

Just saying.

[Blue_In_AK]

14. A time to remember my 18-year-old cousin...

David Lynn Andrews, 9/27/49 - 8/29/68

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. It's actually 58,000+

Just saying.

[dflprincess]

26. You are correct

and that 58,000 doesn't include those who died later from their exposure to Agent Orange or who came back so badly damaged physically or mentally that they too died before their time. My cousin died at 49 as a result of his wounds; nearly 30 years after he came home.

[PublicRadioVet]

17. 53,000 lost, but we won the Cold War

Vietnam, for me any way, has meaning as one of the "hot" fronts in the Cold War. The South Vietnamese government was a sadly corrupt farce, but overall, I think Vietnam is important, as the Korean War was important, in combatting the spread of Soviet repression and imperialism across the globe. I know some people at DU are soft on communism, but I am not one of them. As practiced by the Soviets, communism was a horrible institution and wasted millions upon millions of lives. It was worth opposing, by force if necessary, and is still worth opposing today, though communism is not nearly the powerful threat it used to be.

As always, I run the risk of being banned when I run counter to the conventional wisdom around here, but I suspect Iraq will be like the Korean and Vietnam conflicts, only this time, in a decades-long struggle to best Islamism. The lives lost and the casualties suffered in Iraq will find their place in American history if, in the long run, the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns come to be seen as fronts in the anti-Islamism "war" which currently goes under the inapply-named War On Terror. Because it's not like we're going after the IRA in the UK or Basques in Spain. This is America's head-on clash with Islamism and the forces of radical Islam, which seek to spread that religion at swordpoint and enforce shar'ia across the globe.

If the battles in Iraq and Afghanistan ultimately contribute to the marginalization and defeat of Islamism, in a few decades, the lives lost might be placed in a different context.

This is not a defense of Bush, with whom history will have its own dealings. This is simply an attempt to accord the sacrifices of Iraq a broader context, because as an Army Reservist I have a hard time believing any of our soldiers have died for "nothing", be it in Vietnam, or in Iraq.

Okay, I am ready to be banned. :)

[Kingshakabobo]

28. I used to believe that too.

"We misjudged then — and we have since — the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries … and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions"- Robert McNamara

Re: "The Fog of War". I was stuck by McNamara's conversation with his opposite number, years after the war, when he realized the Russians and the Chinese were nothing but a tool to help toss us out. Something to the effect: "we've been fighting these people for a 1000 years. What made you think we would let them rule us?"

Viet Nam and Cambodia DID fall, and like I said above, 58,000 kids pushing up daisies - you can take a nice vacation to Viet Nam, eat McDonald's, KFC and drink a nice cold Coke.

[charlie]

29. Oh, bollocks

Blowing up a country whose dictator was as much a target of the Islamists as we are is your idea of a sensible front against radical Islam? It's a farce and you're buying it. It's Moe slapping Larry because he's closer, when he's really mad at Curly. And troops and Iraqis are dying unnecessarily. For nothing. If that gives you the vapors, tough toenails, you've got to accept that the military can be misused and abused by fools and madmen.

[CJCRANE]

31. bush is more islamic than saddam..

BFEE has a big saudi influence.

[Redstone]

32. No, you should NOT be banned, but have you read about

Kissinger's deal with the Chinese in 1972?

They died for nothing.

Believe me, there were many, many South Vietnamese who put their lives on the line to keep the North from taking over. But our evil, inhuman government betrayed them and their courage just as they betrayed those tens of thousands of Americans.

Redstone

[CJCRANE]

33. It's not a struggle against Islamism

or against terror or to bring freedom.

Bushco's allies in the Middle East are all absolute monarchies ruled by islamic Kings, Emirs and Sultans.

Iraq was a secular country. Saddam's main crime was to be a socialist who chose to do business with the Russians rather than the US.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. delete

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. What did we "win"?

What will we "win" if, in the unlikely event that we "win", if we defeat "Islamism"?

Your post reminds me of the old Cold War rhetoric about "The Evil Empire" that our heroic leaders "defeated" by slaughtering millions of people and backing reactionary regimes.

[democrank]

38. PublicRadioVet.......

Before I`ll stand up and applaud the decisions taken in the Vietnam War, I`m going to mull over the pecking order used by our government to determine who went and who didn`t. I`m also going to think about the Westmoreland`s filthy lies about the body counts. Apparently he thought we`d find the war easier to swallow if he said 2 died on a given day instead of 75. Then there was this problem a lot of my Vietnam Vet friends had in convincing the government that...YES, they did indeed suffer from the use of Agent Orange. Take a good, long look at your Captain, Mr. George W. Bush. He had the right name, the right connections, so his sacrifice stayed at a big, fat zero. He enjoyed time hanging off a bar stool while young men whose father`s wore blue collars were slaughtered by the tens of thousands. Mere cannon fodder, one and all. Before I talk about DUers "soft on Communism" I`ll honor the long list of DU veterans. Many of them served so Dubya wouldn`t have to shed a gram of sweat or a drop of blood.

If you`re concerned about the spread of "repression and imperialism across the globe" you might want to brush up on some of our own dark chapters. What would you do if a foreign government invaded this country, tore down our statues, tortured some of our citizens, changed our currency, allowed the destruction of The Smithsonian, established curfews, set up road blocks, took over our oilfields, blew up a few churches, installed a puppet government, hired mercenaries to patrol our neighborhoods, dropped white phosphorus on our citizens, blew the arms off some of our children and controlled our water, electricity and sewers? Hope you wouldn`t fight back because then you`d be a "terrorist" and might end up on a secret torture plane to Egypt, never to be heard from again.

There are terrorists for certain. One of them is running around the mountains near Tora Bora. We left him there to do his thing while we fulfilled the operations manual designed by the PNACers and the prospects drawn on (five deferment)Cheney`s oilfield maps.

We`re not in a "head-on clash with Islamism." We`re in a head-on clash with some fanatics similar to the ones we have in this country, ones who claim God took down the Twin Towers because of homosexuals and sent Hurricane Katrina as punishment for abortions. Hell will freeze over before I`ll root for an American president who lies tens of thousands of people to their deaths and puts on a fake chickenhawk flight suit and caws that his mission is accomplished.

[Texasgal]

20. I understand your anger.

But please... do not deny the wall of fallen, the lives lost.

We must REMEMBER.

The fallen deserve our respect.

Your anger is misdirected.

[flvegan]

21. Thank you, Redstone.

You and everyone that has served. A higher duty that I, myself, haven't participated in.

And you're right. Another wall? Another 53,000 names? Another how many families left to deal with the absence of those 53,000 people? Or those left to live after, luckily not one of the 53,000, but one of the tens or hundreds of thousands left to deal with the losses, the injuries...the anguish.

You, sir, are on point.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

22. I fail to see the connection

between honoring our war dead on Memorial Day and having a hissy fit about the current debacle in Iraq.

These are two different issues. Honoring those who died for whatever politically repugnant reasons is a good and decent thing to do, whether it involves flying a flag or simply remembering them in your heart.

But turning it into a strident and ill-advised attack on Fuckface's debacle in Iraq is hardly part and parcel of the holiday. It just dishonors the war dead, and, even though I am dedicated to peace, I had an uncle who won the Congressional Medal Of Honor for heroism in WWII. Would your thinking include that I should think he died in vain at the age of twenty, or would you make an exception for those deaths in those wars of which you might approve?

Memorial Day is not, to me, a political statement. It is a time to pay homage and say thank you to those who died, for whatever reasons, not to exploit it for personal reasons that have nothing to do with respect for the lost.

And, in case you haven't noticed, the majority of Americans want us out of Iraq, so you're preaching to the choir, and you're off-key, especially on this holiday.

[Texasgal]

23. FABULOUS POST!

Thank you!

This is the point that I have been trying to convery, albeit not as well.

Thank you!

[Skittles]

24. indeed

I think this is particularly painful for those of us who grew up seeing the body counts on TV during that debacle; I cannot EVEN imagine what it is like for those DUers who were sent to Vietnam

[Lady Effingbroke]

27. We "stay the course" because, gripped with messianic visions,

pResident Numblenutz absolutely refuses to admit that the invasion of Iraq is a complete, utter fiasco.

The chickenshit chickenhawks in power today learned nothing as they were too busy keeping their asses out of the line of fire during the Vietnam era, while the greater part of the American populace remains complacent and sated with media bread and circuses.

Thank you for your service, Redstone.

[bdamomma]

30. I am waiting for those soldiers in Iraq

to come back and have the same attitude as Redstone, these soldiers should not be there in Iraq, it was a pre emptive war and these iraqi people did not initate this conflict.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. Just what we need. Another monument to war.

So the politicians and generals can weep crocodile tears as they use the waste of lives to stir up the people for the next slaughter.