Serious question......What makes America the 'greatest country?

[serryjw]

Best I can figure (links if you have any, please) we have the most addictive society, murder rate, capital punishment is the highest, child mortality is the highest,our education sucks, health care for all does not exist, divorce rate is very high/est?.
By what indicators does US rank the highest in industrialized nations?

[Make7]

1. Military spending. We are number one! Hell, yeah! ( n/t )

[Xeric]

2. Nuclear weapons

[sweetheart]

60. And the launch delivery and guidance platforms

Not to forget all those bioweapons, the chemical weapons stocks and a gazillion mines,
and all the giant prisons filled with mostly dark-skinned folks, and all the media
enslaved masses, and the degenerate nationalism, and the rich corporate shills
in their 8 tonne SUV's demanding cheap gas, who can resist an underdressed,
crude, rude, degenerate... with WMD's.

What's great is not America, it is an idea, and as much as those ideas live,
in hearts all over the world, the mythical america lives on unfettered by reality.

[zonmoy]

3. our overinflated ego.

[wtmusic]

4. Most powerful

and might makes right (according to the faithful).

[PublicRadioVet]

5. You cherry picked the problems

If all we ever do is look at the bad in America, and throw out the good, then yeah, this country sucks.

My gauge as to us being the "greatest" is the massive numbers of people who spend years or decades trying to come here and be citizens. In spite of all our problems, we still have millions upon millions of human beings across the globe who literally see America as their chance to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness. They sometimes spend a lifetime trying to navigate the red tape of the immigration process, just so they came come here and be American.

When that mighty river of humanity dries up, then maybe we'll know the train has truly left the rails.

Until then, I think the U.S. is a damned good nation, with some damned good traditions, in the classic liberal mold.

[serryjw]

15. That's just left wing rhetoric

This is not a Hallmark Greeting Card. The intention of our Founding Fathers was by all standards the greatest effort/document to mankind. I'm talking about the reality. WHERE by WHAT standard/catagory are we number 1??? I'm omitting the obvious as stated above.

[zeemike]

23. "If all we ever do is..."

It is not all we ever do. I admit it is too often to be actually fun, but that is because there is so much wrong that it needs a lot of attention right now.
But often enough I think we talk of good things like a Senator introducing a good bill
Or perhaps sending Helen Thomas 100 dozen roses or more.
Yes this is a great country with some great people, but they are not in control of there government right now so you would expect them to dwell on the problems and let the good things roll.
And welcome to DU

[ForrestGump]

59. A lot of the people come here because

it still offers what their country cannot.

But a lot also come because they are subscribing to the idea of an America that, in a meaningful sense, no longer exists...a temporary situation, I hope.

[conflictgirl]

64. America: We're a Better Place to Live than Mexico!

(that was sarcasm BTW)

You're exactly right, though. A lot of people are coming here because of the ideal of what they believe this country could be, if it held true to the ideals upon which it was based so many years ago.

Unless I'm wrong (and I'm trying to steer WAY clear of the immigration debate) most of the people coming to this country are from Mexico. If I lived in Mexico, I would probably want to come to America too. But "America: We're a Better Place to Live than Mexico!" isn't exactly the greatest marketing slogan, you know? The fact that people want to move here shouldn't be an argument about what makes this country great.

[serryjw]

69. We're a Better Place to Live than Mexico!"

Well so far we have been compared to Afghanistan and Cuba. I just would like the country of FDR back and I would be happy to then move forward...not backwards.

[conflictgirl]

71. I agree with you about moving forward

I think that the principles this country was founded on were noble and very well may have made us the greatest nation on earth, and the ideas of FDR seemed to be moving us forward and addressing some of the issues for which principles alone weren't enough. I wish more than anything that this country could go back to some of those roots, when we really were a country to be envied.

I don't know about comparing us to Afghanistan or Cuba, I was just addressing the previously mentioned issue about people wanting to move here somehow proving this country's greatness. We're not a third-world nation (yet) or under a dictatorship, but the things that made us great seem to be quickly fading away. :(

[serryjw]

73. I'm almost finished with

Confessions of an Economic Hitman. It shows that most of what we thought was illusion. Our foreign policy for decades has gotten us into this mess.The powers-to-be always wanted us to be the one world power. Imperialism has been the US foreign poicy under both/sides administrations

[LiberalUprising]

86. Have you read Howard Zinn

A People's History of the United States?

You are correct about "The powers-to-be always wanted us to be the one world power. Imperialism has been the US foreign poicy under both/sides administrations"

Here is an excerpt:



The Coming Revolt of the Guards

excerpted from a People's History of the United States

by Howard Zinn

... the mountain of history books under which we all stand leans ... so tremblingly respectful of states and statesmen and so disrespectful, by inattention, to people's movements-that we need some counterforce to avoid being crushed into submission.

All those histories of this country centered on the Founding Fathers and the Presidents weigh oppressively on the capacity of the ordinary citizen to act. They suggest that in times of crisis we must look to someone to save us: in the Revolutionary crisis, the Founding Fathers; in the slavery crisis, Lincoln; in the Depression, Roosevelt; in the Vietnam-Water gate crisis, Carter. And that between occasional crises everything is all right, and it is sufficient for us to be restored to that normal state. They teach us that the supreme act of citizenship is to choose among saviors, by going into a voting booth every four years to choose between two white and well-off Anglo-Saxon males of inoffensive personality and orthodox opinions.

The idea of saviors has been built into the entire culture, beyond politics. We have learned to look to stars, leaders, experts in every field, thus surrendering our own strength, demeaning our own ability, obliterating our own selves. But from time to time, Americans reject that idea and rebel. These rebellions, so far, have been contained. The American system is the most ingenious system of control in world history. With a country so rich in natural resources, talent, and labor power the system can afford to distribute just enough wealth to just enough people to limit discontent to a troublesome minority. It is a country so powerful, so big, so pleasing to so many of its citizens that it can afford to give freedom of dissent to the small number who are not pleased.

There is no system of control with more openings, apertures, lee ways, flexibilities, rewards for the chosen, winning tickets in lotteries. There is none that disperses its controls more complexly through the voting system, the work situation, the church, the family, the school, the mass media-none more successful in mollifying opposition with reforms, isolating people from one another, creating patriotic loyalty.

One percent of the nation owns a third of the wealth. The rest of the wealth is distributed in such a way as to turn those in the 99 percent against one another: small property owners against the propertyless, black against white, native-born against foreign-born, intellectuals and professionals against the uneducated and unskilled. These groups have resented one another and warred against one another with such vehemence and violence as to obscure their common position as sharers of leftovers in a very wealthy country.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/RevoltGuards_PeoplesHx.html

[serryjw]

89. No...but you are the 2nd person to

recommend it. I posted below another recommendation William Blum's Rogue State.

[conflictgirl]

98. It is an excellent book

It's huge and sometimes dry reading, but well worthwhile. So I guess make me recommender #3.

[serryjw]

99. The left is publishing this stuff

faster than I can read it. I'll put it on my list

[hunter]

74. Best slogan ever: We're a Better Place to Live than Mexico!

The way things are going, that might not always be true.

Then what will it be?

A better place to live than Iraq???

[butterfly77]

87. homeless

[AnnInLa]

6. Me, You and DU

[brmdp3123]

7. And you wonder why they say

that we hate America.

[serryjw]

33. I choose not to respond to people that

live in the DU shadows without a profile

[libhill]

37. They say that

because they are boot licking Bush sycophants who are out of touch with reality. Wishing to make America better place, is not "hating America". Frankly, I believe it's the Freeps and conservatives who hate America. They pay lip service to Veterans and military people and the sacrifices they have made for freedom, and then they have the audacity to ride rough shod over those very freedoms. You have to be able to look beneath the surface of their meaningless rhetoric. If you don't believe that, then you should watch what happens when a Veteran comes out in criticism of the war. The freedom of speech that the veteran fought for, will be squashed pretty rapidly by these anus cavities.

[NNadir]

8. We have the highest debt and are the world's greatest debtor.

[rustydog]

9. Sadly, we no longer are if we ever were...but the potential is there

[zeemike]

10. The short answer is enough bombs to destroy the world with.

But historically we have been great...At first the bread basket of the world due to the farming of the great plains
And then of the industrial times becoming greatest in that then with the help of a couple of world wars the greatest military power on earth.
And that is a fact not lost on the rest of the world.

[CanSocDem]

102. Maybe it's confusion....

....about the value of your contribution.

Forcing the world to consume low-nutritional, industrialized food products with leveraged trade agreements that, when they didn't favor American capitalists, were largely ignored, is a far cry from your mythical "bread basket" analogy.

Dumping the internal combustion engine and the auto industry on the world is another dubious contribution but it created jobs. Big deal! Ignoring the environment and exploiting the distinctly American split between management and labour, and the never-ending turmoil this creates in peoples lives, makes for a failing grade in your "industrial times"....

Your military might is also questionable these days. If you're so good at war, why the quagmire in Iraq........and why are you in such a defensive posture back home???? Somethings not right....

[zeemike]

110. Great is not to be confused with good

In fact it is often the opposite of good.
Great is dominance and power that is used to control and consolidate that power.
Yes you only have to read and understand history to understand that the greatness of this country was often used for evil propose.
What we should be shooting for is not a great society but an enlightened one where we use the great things we have (like the abundance of resources and technology) to improve the situation in the world as well as at home.
I hope this clarifies my post for you.
And welcome to DU

[saltpoint]

11. The inscription on the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty and

some, though not all, of our poetry and literature.

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses
yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your
teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed,
to me: I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

— Emma Lazarus, 1883, written to help raise funds for construction of the pedestal.


And, to add one more document of our essence, Lincoln's Address at Gettysburg.

[orwell]

12. It isn't...n/t

[Journeyman]

13. Serious answer. . .

The preamble to the Declaration of Independence and the hoped for possibility that this society may one day live up to its ideals. Show me anything so radical, so infused with potentiality as the words and hopes of Thomas Jefferson. . .

[serryjw]

20. See above!

235 years into this experiment and we are going backwards. America has made many mistakes in the past but we tried to fix them. Sadly, not any more. Lady Liberty is crying :cry:

[Journeyman]

27. Show me a land with ideals half the measure of Thomas Jefferson's. . .

You don't think there are people trying to fix the problems of today? Everyone's just rolled over -- like you -- and decided that a crying smiley is appropriate to the day? I don't believe it about you (you wouldn't be here if you did) and I sure as hell don't believe it about others. Societies are but measures of their citizens. By what measure do you hold yourself?

[serryjw]

34. You can't fix problems

unless you have the courage to admit we have them...and they are getting worse.Most Americans are good people, with good intentions...we can all go down the rabbit hole together.

[speedoo]

14. The possibilty that we may actually survive our disastrous leaders.

I don't know if we actually will, but I do know it's possible.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

16. Collective wealth and military power, these days. That's pretty much it.

The current state of domestic politics and media pretty much rule out those things making us number one. In the old days the country standing for freedom and human rights, but the events of the last several years pretty much have put that in the dumpster too.

[Imajika]

35. In the old days?

The country standing for freedom and human rights?

What old days are you talking about? What on God's green earth are you talking about?

It is an amazing thing to read this forum sometimes. You read comments by all these progressives that talk like the nation is spiraling down hill and that it was once some kind of utopia.

Nonsense. Total, utter nonsense.

This nation is probably more progessive than it has ever been. Gay rights are much more accepted than ever before, women's rights are much more accepted than ever before, etc, etc.

Progessives are really winning the long term fight for positive change, not losing. The only reason Republicans are winning just enough of a majority to keep control at this moment is because the traditional minded, conservative Democrats switched parties. That's it. It's not like these people were once progressive and now they aren't. These voters just moved to the party that better represents their more regressive views. And STILL, Republicans can barely win enough seats to hold Congress and enough votes to hold the Presidency. Think about that. We are basically doing without all of the most conservative southern/mid-Western Dem's that our party once counted on to win elections. We've effectively dumped the dead weight, and were still within striking distance of winning the whole enchalada. It just might happen starting in 06' too.

America has been involving itself in wars to maintain and grow it's power and influence for hundreds of years. There was no wonderous time where we sat around as a nation and seriously occupied ourselves with a great concern for human rights in other parts of the world. Human rights will never be any nations real shared national goal. Perhaps you could say Carter paid lip service to that notion, but it is quite clear how the American voter felt about Carter.

There has never been some American utopia. We are a big rich country and we got that way the same way every other big rich country/empire has gotten that way. We expanded, did whatever it took to make ourselves more wealthy, built a big army and kicked the crap out of anyone who stood in our way. That is what countries do. If America wasn't the biggest, baddest asskicker on the block, someone else would take over that role. Human nature is what it is.

Over time, we are getting more modern and progressive - it's just a very slow process.

[serryjw]

39. Curious? What have you been doing on DU

certainly not reading. Every empire in history is gone with behavior like you support. America will not be any different. Imperialism only works for a while....our time is up.

[Imajika]

44. No country stays on top forever..

..and neither will America. Eventually a nations shared values splinter. Eventually some great war saps the spirit of a nations people for generations to come. The list goes on.

Such is life.

At this moment in time though, America offers the most ecomomic opportunity paired with greatest level of personal liberty than probably any other nation.

[serryjw]

45. You must not have

children. Nobody would be that cavalier with the demise of their country

[Imajika]

52. We're not talking about the demise of the country..

I said no single nation or empire stays on top forever. That is just historically accurate. That doesn't mean there will not be an America, nor does it mean superpower American won't last another several hundred years. It just means no single nation/empire stays on top forever. No one else has, and America won't either. Historically, that is just the way things are.

[serryjw]

55. COG.... Continuity of Government

No doubt the Government of USA will still exist...unfortunately Thomas Jefferson's America will be gone.

[High Plains]

103. Greatest level of personal liberty?

Is that why we have more than half a million people in prison on drug charges? Of course, that does bolster one of our legitimate claims to being #1: We lead the world in prisoners, both in real numbers and per capita.

[PublicRadioVet]

53. Interesting! I agree with some of this, and would add...

...would we rather have the U.S. as the "asskicker" on the global block, or Russia? Germany? The Islamists?

The alternative versions of history that might have been created, had the U.S. not been such an "asskicker" over the years, are disturbing to say the least.

[panader0]

17. The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights

[proud patriot]

19. second that

Now if we can keep :think:

[serryjw]

25. They are all in serious jeopardy

NOW if we can get back our rights under a new administration?

[Mikimouse]

18. T'is because we SAY so...read my sig line for my personal opinion...

:evilfrown:

[serryjw]

22. Well stated!

n/t

[conflictgirl]

72. Ah...your sig line reminds me

Of people who claim to be the greatest in bed (or did, back when I was on the dating scene). I could pretty much guarantee that the more they told me about how great their sexual prowess or the size of their genitalia, the least likely it was to be true.

[Mikimouse]

77. Yep, it is just as true for nations as it is for individuals...

Pomposity is, more often than not, an indicator of falsity.

[eallen]

21. Where do you get your numbers? I think you're confused....

"Child mortality is the highest."

Not even close. The US has an infant mortality rate of 7 per 1000 live births. That's not great: in Japan and Iceland, it's only half as much. But it still puts the US among the better nations in this measure. In many of the poorer nations of Africa, the infant mortality rate is over 100. The US rate is close to South Korea's and Israel's.

"Capital punishment is the highest." Not even close. The US as 20th in executions per capita, just below Cuba and Afghanistan. And the rates for the nations that have more executions are much higher:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_exe_percap

"Murder rate." Nope. The US is in the middle, and again, the murder rate in the nations that are worse are much worse:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_percap

"Divorce rate is very high/est?" Well. That one you got right:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/peo_div_rat

But we also have the highest marriage rate:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/peo_mar_rat

Perhaps related to both of the above, we are #2 in "freedom in decision making":

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_fre_in_dec_mak

We are #3 in trusting our press:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_con_in_soc_ins_pre

We are #8 in trusting our fellow citizens:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_tru_peo

We are #12 in life satisfaction:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_lif_sat

Of course, these soft measures have quite an element of subjectivity and cultural variance in measurement. We are #7 in GDP per capita:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_percap

[serryjw]

24. Sorry, everyone else

assumed I meant industrialized nations. Comparing us to Afghanistan is silly

[90-percent]

28. number one?

Isn't the great USA number one in the World for "percentage of population in prison?"

Don't we have the highest percentage of our citizens behind bars in the World?

I'd be interested in the real facts on this.


-85% Jimmy

[serryjw]

36. Yep!

quote........
More than 5.6 million Americans are in prison or have served time there, according to a new report by the Justice Department released Sunday. That's 1 in 37 adults living in the United States, the highest incarceration level in the world.
end quote.......

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0818/p02s01-usju.html

[libhill]

96. In large part

due to the phony and ridiculous "war on drugs".

[Imajika]

26. Ask all the millions of people that are...

...desperate to come here. We are far from perfect, but as a nation the US probably offers the most economic opportunity combined with a very high level of personal freedom. If America was so bad as you describe it, why do so many people from across the world want to come here? Are not they the best people to ask? Maybe you should go to a citizenship swearing ceremony and ask the people what they hell they want to be American citizens for. You'd end up hearing a lot of great things about what America offers. Maybe the question is, what makes America a more attractive place to live than many/most other countries? Heck, the US gets many of the best and brightest from Canada, Western Europe and other places because some people would rather do business or otherwise make a living in a place where taxes and regulations are lower. The US economy is, and has been, doing quite well when matched against the economic growth of Western Europe and much of Asia.

I know it is very difficult for some people on DU to fully understand, but "free healthcare for all" and "free, equal education for all" does not necessarily translate into economic opportunity, personal freedom, or any kind of serious happiness to speak of. Look at Cuba, there you can get your government run healthcare for all and your government run education for all - but what good is it without serious economic opportunity and personal liberty?

People want the freedom to both speak their minds and make money to improve their lot in life. Many people happen to like the ability to say whatever they want, buy all the latest electronic gadgets they can afford, coordinate with likeminded people online to hound an administration or party they don't like, go to the best private schools they can get into so they can get rich when they graduate, etc, etc. Bottom line - most people are not willing to sacrifice those things in order to get "free healthcare", "free education" or any other "free" thing from the government.

No country is perfect, but America offers more economic opportunity paired with a high level of personal liberty than most others.

Note: government assistance checks, welfare, short/long term unemployment stipends, etc, are not economic opportunity, they are a safety net.

[serryjw]

29. NOW we are being compared to Cuba?

By any serious study middle class is going backwards. Robert Reich says we have a 1% chance of changing the social status we were born into. Graduating from college with a $100K debt is not progress. So your IPOD is worth more to you than universal education & healthcare for all our citizens? Think maybe we can build ONE less nuke?

[90-percent]

30. incarceration rates

uh, per my above post, anybody got facts about this?

I'm really curious.

-85% again

EDIT: Thanks to post 36, I've confirmed we're NUMBER ONE! 1 in 37 in jail! Yippee!!!!

Now just think how high we can get those numbers once Bush' POLICE STATE gets into full steam!

AWESOME! I'm even more prouder to be an American now!

[tenshi816]

47. You say that

"People want the freedom to both speak their minds and make money to improve their lot in life. Many people happen to like the ability to say whatever they want, buy all the latest electronic gadgets they can afford, coordinate with likeminded people online to hound an administration or party they don't like, go to the best private schools they can get into so they can get rich when they graduate, etc, etc."

Funny, I have those things and also "free healthcare". So do many other people in many other countries.

Are you sure you mean to be posting in DU?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. We're best at tooting our own horn.

Alas, the rest of the world, and an appreciable number of our own citizens, have grown weary of the same old sour tune.

[libhill]

32. America -

in reality, is no better than than other Western country. It's just that we are bombarded from the cradle to the grave with propaganda about how America is "Gods Country", that every thing we do is benevolent and well intentioned, and that we can do no wrong. I's all bull shit. I can think of several European countries that I would much rather have been born into. Europeans are, on the whole, much more erudite and realistic and tolerant than are we Americans. Certainly, America has a lot going for it, but there is also a hell of a lot of room for improvement. Which will never be forthcoming in a Republican Administration.

[Disturbed]

38. America has the best PR Machine in the World.

For a real story about America please read The People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn.

[libhill]

42. Is that available

as an "E" book on line?

[Imajika]

41. American economic growth rates..

...over time are infact better than Western Europe. Very often, significantly better.

That is one of the reasons so many want to come here to make a living.

Germany and France, for example, have utterly abysmal growth rates.

And as to Europeans being more tolerant. Sorry, I don't believe that for a minute. Infact, I rather think under the surface, Europeans are mostly far less tolerant and more xenophobic than the average American.

I've been throughout virtually all of Europe, and done business in many European nations - the US is simply a better place to do business, and taking all things into consideration, a better place to live.

[Solon]

85. No offense, but an increasing GDP doesn't mean shit...

seriously, every time someone is diagnosed with cancer, the GDP goes up, every time there is a car accident, the GDP goes up. It doesn't matter how fast or by how much the GDP increases if that money is concentrated at the top. The top elite in this country has seen their incomes RISE by over 700%, while the median wage for everybody else has FALLEN by 10% when adjusted for inflation. This isn't progress, and I could mention the fact that our health care system is atrocious, and many other things, but I won't.

[Imajika]

91. That is a flat our goofy post..

No offense, but an increasing GDP doesn't mean shit...

Your post is ridiculous. Low GDP or negative GDP means economic stagnation or recession. High GDP means economic growth and expansion. You may not like how the wealth is split, but low GDP is bad for everyone. High GDP may not benefit everyone fairly, but it is a hell of a lot better than flat or negative GDP rates. It is precisely why we measure economic health with overall GDP. Western Europe's GDP is terrible - particularly the supposed powerhouses Germany and France. Even the Germans and French know perfectly well their economies suck, they're just undecided on how to fix the problem.

Western European nations have, in many cases, great universal healthcare and assorted other government benefits - but if their economies stagnant or fail to grow they simply won't be able to pay for it.

So yeah, GDP does mean shit. It means a hell of a lot.

There is a reason so many people struggle to get to the US. We provide more economic opportunity matched with a high level of personal freedom than virtually any other nation.

All things considered, and in spite of Bush, the ole' USA is not doing too bad.

[Solon]

94. Never said being in the red is a good thing...

I was just saying the the RATE of growth means little to the average American. Usually, when our economy seems to be doing TOO well, it bites us in the ass in the end. Think the roaring 20s, the 1980s "correction" and many other recessions we have suffered, usually following pretty good growth before a correction is called for. Also, this stands out:

There is a reason so many people struggle to get to the US. We provide more economic opportunity matched with a high level of personal freedom than virtually any other nation.

Most of the immigrants that struggle to get here are immigrants from nations that don't HAVE a large economy, are war torn, or are suffering from many other problems, like unrest, etc. No offense, but I don't hear about hordes of Swedish or Spanish citizens clamoring to be admitted in this country. By most measures, being born poor in this country means you die poor in this country, that's simply a fact.

[Imajika]

97. Not quite..

but I don't hear about hordes of Swedish or Spanish citizens clamoring to be admitted in this country.

Well, actually the US does benefit significantly from "brain drain". Many people who want both economic and personal freedom do infact come here from both Canada and Western Europe. Canadian doctors are a good example. If your a doctor and want to start your own practice and make serious money, your far better off doing it in the states than in Canada. I happen to work with a fair number of Kiwi's and Europeans who came here for the lower tax rates and better business environment. Some would say they don't want those "greedy" people, but the fact is those very people are amongst the best and brightest.

As to your point about the rate of growth meaning very little to Americans. I suppose you can say most Americans don't base their own feelings of economic wellbeing on a bunch of statistics, but there is no doubt that positive GDP numbers, whether you like how the wealth is being divided or not, generally is a pretty darn good sign of economic and national health. With stagnating or declining GDP numbers, it is a good bet the average citizen is becoming worse off. The US is experiencing very high GDP growth at this moment - far, far, far, better than what is occuring in the Eurozone.

[High Plains]

104. Funny, we don't have universal health care...

...and we're still going broke.

Given that the US economy is running on the goodness of our creditors, maybe France and Germany aren't so bad after all.

[pinto]

40. "Greatest nation" is an echo now, perhaps. And a straw man standard.

Maybe it's a useful meme from the past that is outgrowing it's value.

Just as Barnum and Bailey's "Greatest Show on Earth" is seen now as basically a better publicized and executed traveling circus show, maybe the US, as "the greatest nation on earth" is in the process of reintegration with the more pedestrian political realities of the rest of the world.

Neither were a sham. In both instances, Bailey's greatest show and the American's greatest nation, there was an element of truth and undeniable success. One took a horse and buggy side show to preeminence in a newly mechanized, and mobile America. The other took a horse and buggy nation into preeminence in the industrialized world. Those are accomplishments to be valued.

It's also worthwhile to relegate them to history.

To hold either now to the claims of their heyday is a nostalgia, nothing more nor less. To reinvent those claims in a modern context is a cheap fabrication.

The current administration doesn't see it that way, I am certain. They've taken an old, tired, but tried and true meme and added a dangerous overlay of activism - unilateral military aggression - that has warmed jingoistic hearts across the nation. Barnum and Bailey would be proud.

Though the Bush administration would not recognize the analogy, traveling side shows and snake oil salesmen are a thing of the past.

[serryjw]

43. Very true

but sadly I don't think the dems can or will fix it.

[pinto]

49. Oh, I disagree. It's not broken, just changing. Dems see that better, imo

Though I hear rumblings from the right of a thing called the "Bush issue"....:evilgrin:

[serryjw]

57. I disagree...but sincerly hope you are right

What is now wrong with America will not be fixed by our 2008 Presidential nominee. SHOW me where in the last 50 years (after FDR) that it made a difference in foreign policy. We have no money so how are dems going to fix the domestic programs? * will have left a permanent legacy.
Grover will get his wish.

[pinto]

90. Good point. One election won't make the difference.

I think we will, eventually, have the House, Senate and White House again. The rebuilding of the contract between the American public and the federal government may take a while.

[Disturbed]

50. "A People's History of the United States"

People's History of the United States, A by Howard Zinn from ...

"People's History of the United States, A by Howard Zinn, a Audio book from ... Sign-up for Hot @ Harper, the e-newsletter for book enthusiasts who need to ..."
http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060813369

[serryjw]

54. BIG fun..thanks

n/t

[Prophet 451]

46. It isn't, it never was

The USA is one nation among many nations, better than some, worse than others, better at some things, worse at others. Had some great intentions at it's founding, failed to live up to them but that's not really a crime, lately it's failed to try living up to them either.

The USA is the best at proclaiming itself to be the best, that's about it really. Lots of people try to immigrate to teh US, sometimes because it's convienient, sometimes because they believe the "greatest nation on earth" rhetoric. Quite a few try to immigrate to Australia or the UK as well.

I'm a Brit. Sometimes I'm proud of my country, sometimes I'm not and some of our history makes me deeply ashamed but we do have to wonder about this American insecurity which makes teh USA trupmet it's own superiority all the time.

[libhill]

48. At least

Brits are generally honest about their history. In America, we tend to cover up or gloss over the shameful episodes. You should read up on the U.S. conquest of the Philippine Islands, or the "corvee" system of forced labor implemented in Haiti by American colonialists in the early 1900s. A real eye opener, but don't look for it in a standard U.S. history text...

[RedXIII]

51. Freedom of speech...

because if you ever tried to critize the government in Burma or china then you'd get shot or tortured.

[serryjw]

62. You are HALF right

What WE can NOW say is doing ok.......except for our embedded FBI agents in peace marches..unfortunately, there is the other side of the 1st amendment....WITHOUT an unbridled press we have no freedom of speech. MSM has failed miserably

[sweetheart]

67. postmodern in the internet

And that freedom of speech to deconstruct the modernist narratives,
the beliefs in linear progress, absolute truths, the relational planning of
ideal social orders, and the standardization of knowledge and production.

And here on DU, we priviledge 'heterogeneity and difference as liberative
forces in the redefinition of cultural discourse; fragmentation,
indeterminancy, and intense distrust of all universal or 'totalizing' discourses.

We are the vanguard of the postmodern, not america, but the art that has outlived her.

- (on edit) to fix italic quotes from: "the condition of postmodernity" by david harvey

[ForrestGump]

56. It isn't. But it could be.

If you can possibly define what 'greatest' means to all people, anyway. The potential here remains significant, though it has been shrinking every day during the neocon occupation.

It's a real shame, to say the very least.

[Balbus]

58. Ask all the new citizens?

America by far and away has the most new citizens added per year so maybe better to direct your question towards them. Why do they want to come here? :shrug:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/imm_new_cit

[JHH]

63. Because Canada will not let them in

Canada has health care a small military that does mostly peace keeping and tight immigration

[Balbus]

79. Why won't canada let them in?

[serryjw]

66. In comparison to 95% of the world

I's want to come here also. Housing, food, a job that pays something, no gov't torture, no gov't rape, no gov't murder.Most new citizens are aspiring to the bottom rung

[shadowknows69]

61. Give me an hour

I'm sure I'll think of something.

[Selatius]

65. The US is no better than the worst dictatorships and no better than the...

best representative democracies. A nation is nothing without people. People count, not artificial governments and imaginary borders on maps.

I will not get into valuing the lives of people as better than any other group of people simply because of things like GDP and defense expenditures.

Oh, so millions of people want to get to the US? Well, big whoop. Poor people always go to reside in the nation that defeated and conquered and subjugated their home countries precisely because they're following the money they need to survive. I don't believe that's anything to brag about. It is the same with the US as it is the same with other wealthy nations in Europe.

The only difference is that many European nations actually have the capacity to police their own borders versus our inability to police ours.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

68. this and this...

http://www.shockedandawful.com/Tunes.html

http://www.peace-not-war.org/Jukebox/index.html

[conflictgirl]

70. That can be answered in different ways

If you go by the current state of America, there is very little that makes it the greatest nation on earth. Some might say that the fact that taxes are MUCH lower here than other industrialized nations is a good thing (though the way I look at that is the opposite - the comparatively low tax rate is the reason our education system is poor, there is no health care for all, etc.) I'm not going to address the divorce rate or the addictive society because I believe all societies have elements of those characteristics and it's very hard to quantify which country is more or less according to that criteria.

Some people think that America is one of the greatest nations on earth because it's a consumer's paradise. Many people try to live up to the lifestyles they see on TV, and TV is a large part of how the rest of the world sees this country as well. If you only watched American sitcoms and reality TV shows you would think that everyone has money to have fabulous wardrobes, go on great vacations all the time, and that anyone with talent can be the next winner of "American Idol" or "America's Next Top Model." I can see how it would look seductive to someone from another country where taxes are higher and regulations make it much, much harder for people to make millions of dollars scamming people.

The other way you can look at it is to go strictly by the principles and documents upon which this country was founded. This country started with some great ideals and if we still upheld those ideals, I could say without reservations that we could very well have the greatest nation on earth. But because those principles are increasingly being undermined or eliminated, I can't in good conscience say we're the best nation on earth. Nor are we the worst. We are a country that had a lot of potential to be great, that appears to be destroying itself with greed.

[serryjw]

75. Not only foreigners BUT also Americans

Thinks they everyone should go to the best colleges, live in the largest house, drive the newest Mercedes, make millions doing god no's what...unfortunately, it's all corporate propaganda.. Most Americans would give up a raise to have a little more free time with their family,to enjoy hobbies, volunteer at a charity. NOT everyone wants or has the ability to run a company. I think that is the crux of one of the problems. I was listening to Tim Russert being interviewed on his new book about 'fathers' He loved (worshipped) Big Russ who was a plumber. We have no respect for working class people. It you don't go to an office in a 3-piece suit driving a Beamer you are a failure. The days of 'hard work' are gone and with it is the foundation this country was founded on.

[conflictgirl]

76. Absolutely

When I lived in Dallas, there was a phenomenon we referred to as the "$30,000 a year millionaire". I wouldn't be at all surprised if other places may have the same thing, but it so reflected the mentality in Dallas. You could get a brand-new McMansion for less than $200K. Nobody drove old cars. You saw tons and tons of Lexuses. The "$30K a year millionaire" obviously refers to the fact that even on a fairly low wage, people there wanted everyone to think they lived like millionaires. I even got sucked into it a little bit myself before I came back to my senses. I was an assistant manager at a clothing store in the mall and one of our part-time employees also had a full-time secretarial job - if she made $30K from both jobs combined, I'd be surprised, and even she drove a Lexus.

So the "consumer paradise" mentality has certainly affected Americans, too. And as I mentioned in my other post, it is only low taxes and lack of regulation that makes much of this possible. And our own president tells us to consume like this to keep the economy running - remember, that was what he said after 9/11, that we should go out and shop.

Perhaps if he's telling us to shop more, we should take that as our cue to do the opposite and *save* more. A good idea anyway, but perhaps more necessary now than ever?

(edited to fix stupid typo)

[serryjw]

78. $30,000 a year millionaire

Exists all over the country. I lived in LA, Atlanta & now Denver and it's all the same. That is why our bankruptcy rates is so high, foreclosure is so high and no one has any savings. I had a friend in Atlanta, when he got a divorce he leased a VETTE for $850/month! EVERYTHING you want you can have with a minimum monthly payment.

[datasuspect]

80. our history

slavery
the genocide of indigenous peoples
legal racism and discrimination until at least the 70s
institutional racism to this very day
vietnam
the rosenbergs
etc.

[Random_Australian]

81. SERIOUS ANSWER: You're not so bad, but the whole 'greatest' thing

is just usually perceived as one of your national flaws, like the gun nuttery and the obesity rates.

[musical_soul]

82. You just answered your own question.

I don't care to rank the highest in that stuff. Makes me wonder if I don't want to raise my kids elsewhere.

[Yollam]

83. It hasn't been since Vietnam, at least.

That "greatest country" crap is pure arrogance and mindless nationalism.

It's a country with an increasingly Mexico-like economy, a completely corrupt government controlled by corporations, an astounding foreign debt, and a hell of a lot of military power.

It's the latter that lets us get away with the absurd "greatest" claims.

[Spinoza]

84. Its easier starting your own

business, and being able to work for yourself and not others, than almost any other country.

[butterfly77]

88. America would rather import people from other countries before..

they will help the people who were already here, this is why they have so much crime as well as other problems.

[Joe Fields]

92. It's better than living in Uganda?

[wizdum]

93. The Constitution and Bill of Rights

[JohnKleeb]

95. It's hard to say

and capital punishment rate is not the highest in the world, that belongs to China. I think America's greatness can't be measured in statistics but rather in the idea of America that was formed during the Revolution and at the constituional convention. The American dream is that you can come here with nothing and become successful. It's why we are the nation of immigrants we are. It may sound materialistic but that's why people came here at such large rates. We also were the first modern republic unique to the monarchies and empires of Europe of that time. I think America's greatness goes back to our founding honestly. Our country has its flaws but I really do think this is a great country.

[Heidi]

100. Serious answer: propaganda.

I love the _people_ of the US and the ideals that I was brought up to believe in, but if this "greatest country" thing is about freedom, there are more free places to live these days than the US. That's sad, but it's true.

[JeffR]

101. Serious answer... cornbread, hush puppies & the Constitution

[Zhade]

105. Nothing.

NT!

[dysfunctional press]

106. serious answer: it isn't.

nt

[maxrandb]

107. DU is hosted here

That's my simple answer

[BooScout]

108. HOLLYWOOD

Seriously.

I live overseas. You would be amazed at the number of people who actually believe what they see on TV and in the movies about America.

The ones that are see past the glitter and the hype realize that America is no better than anywhere else and frankly is often lacking in many areas.

[milkyway]

109. We have the most stuff.