I think it's possible that I'd join the military today ... if ...

[TahitiNut]

I was thinking quite seriously (meditatively) recently and thinking that if I were in my 20's, even knowing what I know, and in a similar life state as I am now ... I'd probably (better than 50-50) join the military.

I was thinking about Haditha and the troops going nuts - thinking about Falluja - thinking about the "stop loss" - thinking about the multiple tours - thinking about the bottom of the psychological barrel recruitment - thinking about the lives unnecessarily lost, both Iraqi and American ... and thought that if I could make even a little difference - save a couple of lives, be a little less likely to panic and squeeze off a clip at some family - it might be the best I could do to enlist.

Whether or not we get our military OUT of Iraq, the fact is that they're there.

I just can't morally think that my life is somehow more valuable than the life of an Iraqi child, an Iraqi mother, a scared soldier with a wife and baby at home.

Sometimes, the best thing a person can do is get in harm's way and make a difference - take fewer innocent lives.

It was a scary thought time.

It brought back my recollection of being drafted during Viet Nam. Canada's just a commute. Their language isn't that difficult to learn. But I couldn't think about what might happen to whomever went in my place - and I KNEW it'd have to be someone else. It was 1968 and it just wasn't going to be over soon enough. So I didn't run to Canada and become a computer programmer for the Royal Bank. I went.

I was a coward, in a way - I was afraid of having to live with myself.

Dumb, huh? There are soooo many on DU who were wiser.

:shrug:

[TahitiNut]

1. Wow! And I was leery about a backlash!

It turned out to be like a "neutrino" thread. Go figure! After so many years, I like the fact I can still be surprised.

:party:

[KoKo]

2. How could your going to Canada have made any difference in what

happened in Vietnam? How could going to Iraq make any difference in what happens there to a 20 year old today? If you are in the grunt military, that is. The only people who had a chance of making a difference were in the Embassy in Vietnam and in the Green Zone in Iraq. And, in Iraq's case they sent a bunch of 20 Somethings who were kids of Heritage Foundation Parent...gave them bags of money to start an Iraqi Stock Market, and media among other things. Those kids had a great time, spent alot of money and ripped the Taxpayers and the Iraqi's off. They probably all have cushy jobs right now in the Bush administration with a resume that makes them sound like experts in "humanitarian aid" written by Paul Bremmer.

Making a difference was trying to stop it. You could have been dead like so many others. You are lucky you survived. If you helped save one life or were able to feel good about your Vietnam experience then that's rewarding for you personally. But in the overall both "wars" were so wrong that it's hard to see that avoiding or going made much difference. It's out of the ordinary service person's hands. :shrug:

Maybe I didn't understand your post though.

[TahitiNut]

4. Just the notion that somehow, perhaps egotistically, ...

... I might not have added to some melee of panic and excess. Perhaps being a replacement for some burn-out ready to crack from too long in-country. I dunno. While it's an article of faith that "every little bit helps," I'm not sanguine that our body politic is healing or even on the orad to recovery. I'm furthermore, as I'm sure others feel, not frequently encouraged that I'm making as much of a positive difference here as might be made in some way by a net of one or two less lives lost uselessly. Sure - that net savins migh be at the cost of mine, but again, I'm not inclined to think mine is any more or less valuable than an Iraqi child's or other innocent Iraqi.

It's the kind of thought that crosses my mind when I contemplate the necessary integrity of the system of ethics to which I subscribe - and the Categorical Imperative.

[KoKo]

10. It's "Noble and Altruistic" of you to say that...but it's not Practical or

Reality...:-( I wish it was so..being of a very romantic nature but being forced by "life experiences" to push down my "altruism" every time it "pops up" and go back to the grim/reaper reality..of what is doable and what is "hype and spin" to suck us "romantics who THINK" into some other Globalists cause that only ends up in death, death and domination and more death. Loss, recriminations and in 30 or 40 years...it's repeated all over again..as if no one every noticed the flaws of what was done.

Just my 2 Cents...

[TahitiNut]

13. Well, there's no nobility or altruism or romanticism involved ...

... at least I sure don't think so. Even less, I'm troubled that I'm really not very confident that I would "walk the walk" of the ethical system to which I subscribe - no matter how much I'd like to think so. Assuredly, given my age, physical condition, and current obligations (although sure to come to an end before too long), it's not an option I have. Nonetheless, I'm even more troubled and perplexed about what choices I might make to make the best possible difference.

When I contemplate the conditions under which our military personel serve, even irrespective of the fact that their service is being so malignantly exploited and perverted and that's permitted by a seduced and complacent citizenry, I believe there's an opportunity for one person to make that difference. Being nowhere near omniscient, I can't know that some haven't already done so. After all, who could deny that someone other than Graner or England might have made abu Ghraib far less of a horror for many human beings? I can't help but believe that far too much human suffering and death can be attributed to personnel who're tragically ill-equipped both mentally and emotionally to bear the burdens placed upon them - and stand up against the malicious and exploitative propelling their continued operations in Iraq.

[KoKo]

15. Okay...understand then, exactly what you are saying

IOWD's If One Person Can Make A Difference...SHOULDN'T THEY TRY?

My posts up above about this was that thinking this over before in my own life...I came to the conclusion that in certain circumstances it just might not be worth the try unless one is altruistic and has makings of a hero that might end up being ..in the end...and "unsung hero" that no one would ever care about he sacrifice for good if one is in an unjustifiable war of agression.

I don't know why you are thinking about this right now...and if there's something you saw or felt in Vietnam that's dredging feelings up that weren't dealth with... So I'll just leave it for what I said. I didn't serve in the military and would have gone to Canada rather than fight in Vietnam or Iraq. But, in WWII had I been around to do something...I would have gladly served in a capacity that wasn't battleground because that was a truly important war with grave consequences if Hitler and Hirohito were not stopped. :shrug:

[TahitiNut]

17. I often think the only real heroes are the "unsung" heroes.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the word 'altruism' - since I feel that even the virtuous act is motivated by a reward (i.e. "Virtue is its own reward.")

Much of my angst, while informed by my experiences in Nam and elsewhere/elsewhen, is the ambivalence/conflict I feel between a deontological and consequentialist mindset.

In a sense, even a deontologist has a utilitarian objective: "a better world." I suppose that even those who subscribe to the Categorical Imperative can be seduced by an expectation that acts consistent with it might serve as a model and promulgate a consequential 'good.' Finally, however, I don't see it as much a contradiction but as a question of why have an ethical system at all.

In another sense, perhaps I'm motivated by fear - a fear of eroding my own respect for myself. These are not internal dialogs of a kind I'm in the habit of sharing.

Insofar as my choice to succumb to the draft and not 'commute' to Canada - that's a choice I doubt I'll ever regret. Indeed, I made it fully conscious of the prospect of having to LIVE with it - which, despite the death rate, was far more probable than dying due to it. I was 24 years old when I made that choice and, even today, have respect for that 24-year-old.

[gratuitous]

3. These folks weren't around at the time

But if you want to take an active role in stopping war, these folks are around now:

http://www.cpt.org/publications/history.php

"Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) offers an organized, nonviolent alternative to war and other forms of lethal inter-group conflict. CPT provides organizational support to persons committed to faith-based nonviolent alternatives in situations where lethal conflict is an immediate reality or is supported by public policy."

I've been on one of their delegations, and it's a life-changing experience. I don't have a shiny medal or nice ribbon, and I won't be meeting up with my old mates in dark wood paneled dens, sitting on overstuffed chairs drinking brandy and smoking cigars, but it had its own points.

[TahitiNut]

5. Is it necessary that such volunteers subscribe to the sectarian rationale?

Such an activity truly appeals to me, but I'd be less than honest to join such a group uder the guise of adhering to their sectarian beliefs.

[gratuitous]

7. There is a religious component, no doubt

But I haven't heard them turning down anyone simply because they belong to the "wrong" church or no church at all. Most of them are pretty open-minded Mennonite and Church of the Brethren folks (not typical, but not unheard of), whose major commitment is less to sectarian beliefs than to "getting in the way" of war, oppression and violence.

Come, we go dig wells instead of graves.

[KoKo]

12. Here... this is my 'Protest Sign" that I stood with to STOP Iraq Invasion.

WHO WOULD JESUS BOMB?

I also did a "night run" posting a flyer saying that on every church entryway in my City here in NC. I'm surprised I wasn't arrested for it...but that was before the major Bush Crackdowns on Dissent occurred.

I must have printed 300 of these leaflets and armed with rubber gloves (so they couldn't trace my fingerprints) and a staple gun I made sure that every churchgoer saw my sign. BTW...Hubby ran the car while I jumped out and did my "staple gun" thingy. We were careful keeping our car lights off and did it after midnight.

WHO WOULD JESUS BOMB?

I'm not a "fundie Christian." I'm an Episcopalian and not preachy about my beliefs as most of us weren't. But, I was so overwhelmed with my understanding of the teachings of Christ that for us to INVADE IRAQ was just beyond anything I could understand Christians being able to conscience.

I always will remember that the Presbyterians and the Methodists left my flyers up...and the Baptists and Episcopalians took them down. So did the Catholics. The Mormons (we have a huge Mormon Temple where I live) also left my flyers up.

I thought that was interesting...

[PsN2Wind]

6. I too might consider it

if I was in my late teens, early twenties and knew I was indestructible as I knew then. However, even though I had put in for VietNam in 1963, when almost all USAF were there as advisors, living in and living it up in Saigon, I had no inclination to run back to the recruiters and enlist to go there after things began to heat up in 1965. And if I had, I would have gone back in to the Navy and spent my time on an aircraft carrier rather than being "in the shit".

[NNN0LHI]

8. What do you do when you see an Iraqi man pointing a gun at you?

How were you planning on improving that situation? Here you have a man fighting for what he considers his country and you go there as an invader with the idea of making "a little difference" in his country. But you would kill him dead nonetheless. Wouldn't you?

I am not attempting to be snarky here. And I don't think you buy into the "White Mans Burden" stuff? But I am trying to prevent other young men who may not have the life experience that you and I do to try and make a rational decision. Your post doesn't help do that.

We were lied to in Vietnam as we were lied to about Iraq. You know that.

The talking point you used "the fact is that they're there" was used during Vietnam as reasons for continuing that massacre. You know that too.

The real important fact here is we aren't in Vietnam anymore.

The same should be said of Iraq.

Don

[Scoody Boo]

9. My leg keeps me from going back in...

or I would. It fucking kills me that I can't be with my old unit. I did a year with a security company in Iraq a year and a half ago, but it was not the same.

[survivor999]

11. Somehow...

I don't believe in any of the "If the world were X I'd be doing Y"... Basically, there is no way of knowing... If the world were X, you'd be a different person, and so what you think you'd do (which is based on you being in THIS world) is probably way off...

[TahitiNut]

14. Well, if cows could fly ..

... I'd (like to think I might) be in the steel umbrella business. :dunce:

[Tom Joad]

16. Best thing to do is to organize military resistance. Refuse to Kill!

A very important part of ending this war is to support military resisters, and all those within the military who are questioning this war. We owe them a sympathetic and non-judgemental ear.

What we do not want to do, is to give in to fatalism. Yes, troops are currently in Iraq, but for many of us this is morally unacceptable. There is no good way to wage a war of aggression. Kind people did the deeds at Fallujah, Haditha, Balad, and other places because they were so ordered by the authorities. As long as that authority is given legitimacy there will be more Vietnams, more Iraqs, more Irans...

Tahiti, i sincerely appreciate your desire to do something meaningful, that you would be willing to take risks. However, i think we should take risks now to urge soldiers to refuse to wage a war based on deception, to refuse a war that is for a desire for empire.

See this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1316940