My family is part of the 29%.

[Lady Effingbroke]

My parents live in the same town as I, and are VERY Republican.

I make a determined effort not to bring up politics while talking with them, but inevitably my folks do. The heretofore-pleasant visit then quickly deteriorates into arguments and put-downs (on their part, I never say anything nasty to them, and I'm actually hard-pressed to get a word in once they get started).

I don't mind discussing politics, however, I dislike being talked down to (who doesn't?), which is why I refuse to talk politics any more with my family.

I have tried in the past to explain about the Downing Street memo, how the US government was complicit in 9/11, how Americans are very heavily propagandized and that the corporate media cannot be trusted, etc., and they just laugh, smirk, and roll their eyes.

For example, my mother said Saturday that "history will prove that Bush was a good president". In response, I told her that I did not wish to discuss politics any more as it only led to hard feelings and walked out of the room, to her jeer of "see, you won't even stay around to talk about it".

Lately, however, when I do see my parents, they always seem to bring up politics and then blast me for my political views (which they know but for the sake of family harmony I don't wish to discuss). I disagree with their beliefs and think they are desperately misguided, but I would never resort to insults.

Except for our political disagreements, I get along with them well, and they have always been more than kind to me.

If the sh*t hit the fan tomorrow, they would blame everything on the Democrats, since they already do.

They are "good Germans".

I don't know what the fvck to do with these people.

I apologize for this rambling, poorly-written rant. I was loath to post it since it really is a petty and minor issue within one family, however, I think that it is indicative of a larger problem facing the country - one family multiplied by millions.

I fear that a time is soon coming where my relationship with my family will fall into an irreparable rift - and all over stupid politics.

But * is a uniter, not a divider, right?

[cdb]

1. You are doing the right thing.

They are far beyond reason, IMHO. If you wish to try, you can present the facts, and let them dispute it. But I mean present facts ON PAPER and let them come up with WMDs and justifications for wiretaps, etc. Good luck.

[Lady Effingbroke]

10. Thanks for your reply.

I think they are beyond reason as well.

One interesting thing is getting to see what years of brainwashing and propaganda does to otherwise-intelligent people!

[dave123williams]

126. I disagree; start yelling at them.

They'll start to get the idea that a) you've got a spine and b) you are invested in what you're talking about.

[Jack from Charlotte]

127. The line I use that always shuts up any right wingers.....

I do not bring up politics in the presence of certain friends and family members.... for the sake of family peace..... but in order to get in a shot I say this.... "You know what just makes my blood boil these days? The fact that the guy responsible for 9/11 has not been caught or killed. Today makes 1722 days since 9/11. WWII for the US from Pearl Harbor until the end only took 1378 days. What a failure this is. Someone is AWOL about finding and killing the guy.... That's bin Laden, BTW, who planned and carried out 9/11."

The wingnuttery cannot answer. Can't accuse me of being soft or a pacifist and has no talking point answer. Just a nod.

(Note: Using the term AWOL is always useful.)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. My only advice is to laugh

it off. Make jokes and disarm the situation.

Then go home and bite the wall.

Seriously, that's rough. The Decider is a Divider.

Your parents are good folks who want to believe what he is handing out. It sounds so pretty. But it is so, so ugly once you scratch the surface.

[Lady Effingbroke]

11. It's very ugly, TG, and it tears me up inside.

Thank you for your reply.

[Mz Pip]

3. Since they seem to want to hear what you have to say

<For example, my mother said Saturday that "history will prove that Bush was a good president". In response, I told her that I did not wish to discuss politics any more as it only led to hard feelings and walked out of the room, to her jeer of "see, you won't even stay around to talk about it". >


Go for it.

Truman didn't grease the wheel. He didn't have a spin machine out there saying he would go down in history as a great president. Perhaps that's a true sign of greatness - not bragging before the fact.

Bush doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of being a great president and all the spin to the contrary won't change the fact.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Conker]

4. What do your other family members think?

[Lady Effingbroke]

My only other family member in town is my 93 year old granfdather

who keeps bringing up the Kennedys and "how crooked they are". He talks about Chappaquiddick and how Joe Sr. made all his money bootlegging (according to my grandfather).

I am alone in my opinions. It's pretty rough sometimes.

[Cha]

33. Better than

bush's ancestors making money off the hitler regime.

http://www.tupbiosystems.com/articles/bush_nazi.html

This is just one of many links to ol' prescott bush's dealings with the nazis.

And Clinton's blow job lie was nothing compared to bush's LIES about the War on Iraq.

[Lady Effingbroke]

35. Yeah, my folks apportion some blame to the Almighty Clenis (of course!)

Thank you for the link - I will read up so I can defend myself better next time they ambush me!

[Cha]

75. You're most Welcome and

Best of Luck..thank you for trying to bring some reality into focus.

[mwb970]

64. It sounds like your family was manufactured by Fox News. (n/t)

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Sorry to say it but Joe Sr did make his

money in bootlegging... that fact is correct, so you won't have any luck with grand dad. Oh and never mind the Bush family made their money dealing with Adolph Hitler. You are doing the right thing

[Lady Effingbroke]

82. Yes, I realize that bootlegging is one of the ways that Joe Sr. made his

fortune, so all I can do is agree with my grandfather on that point. The irritating thing is how he repeatedly gloms onto the Kennedys' shortcomings and failures while refusing to acknowledge their successes (RFK, etc.).

In his particular case, and in light of his advanced age, I simply smile gently and humor him, as arguing and pointing out facts such as the Bush-Nazi family connection may seriously stress him out and adversely affect his health. He is in good shape for his age, but can't take a lot of excitement, and his ideas are set in cement.

[libhill]

86. Perhaps

you should tell him about how Grand pappy Bush made all his money dealing with Hitlers Third Reich. Compared to that, bootlegging is Boy Scout merit badge stuff.

[WhoWantsToBeOccupied]

102. Sounds like my 94-year-old grandmother!

She's a wonderful woman in all other ways, but she sits around watching Fox News all day. And she has the same visceral reaction to the Kennedys.

[MuseRider]

5. If they won't listen

and seem to want to put you in your place all the time then I would write them a letter. I would say pretty much what you said here and leave it up to them. You have to be willing to walk out the door if they bring it up again but NO ONE should ever have to be cornered like they are cornering you. This is the only way I have ever been able to solve this kind of problem. Set the rules and when they break them walk away. Make them ask you back. It is hard. "Dance of Anger" by Harriet Goldhor Lerner (I hope I spelled that right) dealt with this kind of dance. It worked for me with my mother when she was still living. It was hard but it worked.

[Lady Effingbroke]

23. Thank you so much for recommending the book.

I always enjoy reading you posts (I am a chronic lurker), but I delurked in order to post, as this has been bothering me terribly for quite some time.

[MuseRider]

38. I am very glad

to see you again! Please don't lurk so much, I enjoy you. It is sad to be put in a position like you are in and you can't seem to win it. Good luck. It is a great book and helps put the onus on the party it belongs to. I was always one to take it from my mother and get so upset and angry, this book taught me to defuse it by putting it back on her. Harriet is a wonderful woman and this book was the first that she wrote about this dynamic.

[stepnw1f]

6. Wow... I feel your pain

You can rant all you want!

[Loge23]

7. Incredibly polarizing administration

I know what you are talking about. Although my family is not pro-admin, some of my friends/acquaintances are. You can't just disagree anymore - you just lose the people from your social circle. It's sad, but that's what things have come to now.
What scares me most about this trend is what I fear we are becoming in this country.

[Lady Effingbroke]

20. I agree.

No longer can people politely discuss their differences - it always seems to degenerate into a shouting match. :(

[abluelady]

8. Just Left a Cookout Early

when one of the guests said "history will show, yada, yada, yada. My fear is the moron is going to make a new law that allows him to run for president again! My friend(?) and your parents will be thrilled.

[cdb]

13. I stayed at a BBQ later than I should have

just to talk with a liberal guy, in my bass ackwards conservative backwater town. The guy was a chemical research scientist, very, very smart. I am glad I stayed to hear him trash the * crime syndicate from a sientific perspective, as well as a political perspective.

[Lady Effingbroke]

26. Thrilled beyond words.

Except for the words, "see, I told you he was doing a good job!"

[Arugula Latte]

112. ... Or, worse, they'll just install Jeb.

That will be the end of this country.

[TriSec]

9. oh lordy...I married in.

In fact, I often refer to my wife's parent's as the "wingnuts-in-law". Here's a story from a couple of weeks ago (Posted to Air America Place "Libertarian Saturday" Daily Blog...May 13, 2006)

TriSec | 05/13/06 - 09:00 pm Good evening, comrades. It is through tightly-clenched teeth that I exhale deeply and tell you my tale...

We all know Bush's approval rating has hit a new low this week. (31% according to the last Gallup poll on 05/08) and we all wonder just who that 31% is. These are the people that will still support the 'president' even after he kills, cooks, and eats a 3 year old boy after having sex with him on the South Lawn.

Well.....I'm married to their daughter.

For many years now, we've observed an unwritten "Gentleman's Agreement" not to discuss politics. We were at a birthday party today for my mother-in-law's sister, who just turned 87. Anyway, somehow the discussion got to Hugo Chavez, and Miriam just had to ask me if I thought it was appropriate for a foreign leader to call the president "stupid".

So naturally, I said "If that's what he thinks, he has every right to do so." Well...that somehow led to a discussion about the First Ammendment...during which dad-in-law says "Never mind the Constitution!"

You don't say that to me. Ever. Clear?

Very quickly, we devolved into a genuine shouting match....in which of course I dragged in the latest atrocity with the phone records. To which mum in law spouts off the talking point. You know..."that's Ok with me. I have nothing to hide."

Only the thought of having my wife see my physically strike her mother prevented me from actually doing so. Our host, bless her soul, quickly presented the birthday cake and made us stop and sing 'Happy Birthday' and we somehow changed the subject.

Miss Raine...if you're lurking, I was wrong. I do have anger left. A vast, deep, untapped well of it that I have just rediscovered today.


The cryptic response to "Miss Raine" refers to a conversation we had earlier in the week, when I decided I had no more anger left, just a deep sadness and resignation.

Anyway....

:banghead:

[Mz Pip]

14. Scary

I truly believe that if we have another serious terrorist attack in this country we can kiss the Constitution good bye. Period.

"Never mind the Constituition" Fuck that shit. What would dear father in law like in its place? Mein Kampf?

The city that got hit on 9/11 isn't backing this shit. 85% for Kerry.

And to your mom in law I say: I have nothing to hide wither - but get a warrant anyway.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[libhill]

89. I know this sounds melodramatic

but I do wonder sometimes if this country is on the verge of civil war?

[maxsolomon]

131. no, its on the verge of pogroms

wherein liberals are wiped out by nationalist conservatives.

[Oversea Visitor]

12. Just talk 11.3 trillion deficit

Just worry about your children future.

I think better you stick to this and let them go from here to other area

[Lady Effingbroke]

25. Thank you for your reply, Oversea Visitor.

Sadly, I fear that is what is going to happen.

[Olney Blue]

15. I'm the only Dem in my family.

We can't discuss politics either.

Hang in there- they are in serious denial because accepting reality would be too horrifying.

[Lady Effingbroke]

29. I truly believe that denial is a large part of their problem.

They are two older retired people just trying to hang on to what they have.

Their method of doing so, however, leaves a bit to be desired!

It is immensely frustrating as they lived through Watergate as adults (I'm 36 and was a toddler then) and have seen governmental corruption. It's frustrating to watch two older adults who should know better act as they do.

[ginnyinWI]

46. They sound just like my parents.

They are in their 70s. I get along fine with them on the surface, but of course politics came up in 2004. They asked so I told them who I was voting for--actually they knew I had also voted for Gore. But this time my dad was listening to a lot of RW talk radio, so boy, did he ever have his talking points! And he felt he needed to deliver them to me by shouting! One time I lost it and shouted back, but quickly decided that I did not want to be responsible for him having a stroke, and decided that nothing he ever said would cause me to lose it again. He also sent me emails of stuff he'd cut-and-pasted from dubious sources, "proving" to me that Kerry was all sorts of horrible things. And then he started insulting me, again via email, by questioning my intelligence since I was so gullible as to believe what liberals said. It got bad--and I soon learned never to answer those emails, because he always interpreted everything much worse than I meant it.

Right before the election I called them and said that I wanted to get along with them and that I thought we shouldn't talke about politics anymore. They were flattered that I wanted to "make up".

Now, when they visit they seldom bring politics up anymore. And if they do, I either don't answer or just say um-hum and change the subject. They are beyond logic or reasoning and I just tell myself to treat them like I would treat 10 year olds. If they ever decide to press an issue, I'm planning on smiling and saying, "Oh no, you're trying to get me to talk about politics, aren't you? Well I'm not gonna do it." and then just keep smiling.

I keep everything to myself these days: they don't know that I participate in blogging, they don't know that I worked as a volunteer for the Kerry campaign, they don't know I've (horrors!) actually given money to that campaign and to other Dems. I look on it as a fun secret to keep. It's a part of me that I'm keeping to myself when they are around--and it feels empowering. :)

If your parents are like mine, they are insecure, and express it by having to have everyone around them agree with them, especially their kids. You just have to feel sorry for them.

[bobbieinok]

132. me too.......my brothers and their families here; my son + ex are dems

but NOT HERE.

My niece said she now knows she is a republican b/c of her research paper (everyone in the 8th grade had to do a paper before the 2004 election) on abortion.

I said she should have done her paper on torture......and got no answer.

[Olney Blue]

133. So anti-choice is the SAME as Republican?

Yes, this is why the arguments go round and round... no logic. I liked your torture comment- very smart.

[xxqqqzme]

16. I share your pain.

My mother & dad, brother, both sisters are married 2 raisin brain as savior of America. I can cause my brother and mother 2 go into seizures by saying 'Clinton' or even better 'Hillary'. EVERYTHING is Clinton's fault; the media is liberal; Democrats are destroying the country. My mother seems locked in 2 the RW spam machine as she never fails 2 sent me yet another email based on lies, innuendo or half truths. I usually reply w/ a link 2 snopes which drills holes in her righteous outrage. She recently sent me something about how Clinton had screwed something up and Gore had backed him (well duh!). I replied that she needed 2 check her sources cuz I was pretty certain Clinton was no longer president and hadn't been for the last 5 1/2 years!

I have asked her repeatedly NOT 2 include me in her hate mail as I am not interested in her bigotry and lack of facts. I recently came 2 understand that they all see me as the crazy one cuz I don't think like them...I never have. They have an idea of who I am supposed 2 be and I have never been that fantasy person.

[tenshi816]

52. I reply to my dad and stepmother

with Snopes links too, but I don't stop there - I always hit "reply all" so that every single one of the sometimes hundreds of people who also received whatever idiotic RW e-mail it happens to be at the time also gets the link.

Last time, I also pointed out to them all that anything that needs to be falsified or distorted just to make a point isn't something worth believing in, and that they should be questioning why they were all so anxious to do so.

I've asked my parents not to send me this crap and they continue to do it, so I have no problem fighting fire with fire.

[phylny]

67. I do the same thing with my father-in-law.

I have repeatedly, politely, asked him not to include me in his "Rah Rah" e-mails regarding how wonderful everything * and the Republicans do. Since he continues to send the crap my way, I "reply all" with snopes and hope like hell it embarrasses him.

I try very hard not to discuss politics, but he likes to push and goad - for sport.

[tenshi816]

116. My problem isn't so much the "rah-rah-everything-

is-wonderful" e-mails, it's the ones that want people to believe GWB is only a small step away from sainthood (the "I-looked-in-his-eyes-and-saw-what-a-wonderful-Christian-man-he-is" e-mails) and the ones obsessed with laying all of America's woes at Bill Clinton's feet.

As always, Snopes is our friend.

Also, like I said in my earlier post, I'm fond of pointing out that if it's necessary to distort or lie to prove a point, then maybe there's something wrong with the reasoning in the first place.

[TankLV]

130. I did that too. Got some really NASTY replys back from some on the

original list. I got nastier. Let them have the TRUTH in all its glorious detail. Kept it up until they stopped sending me this shit. Never backed down from their LIES. It finally worked. I was NOT about to give in to these REPUKE CRIMINALS - anybody who supports CRIMINALS are themselves CRIMINALS as far as I'm concerned. No excuses.

That solved the "problem".

There were a few at work who just refuse to get it. I will not mix it up until they say something stupid and loud - I will NOT let stupidity go unchallenged. I will not insert myself into their conversation, but if it's so loud as to make NOT hearing it possible, then all bets are off - THEY are trying to intimidate us - it won't work.

NOBODY makes that mistake anymore. It's a much more peaceful place now.

One HAS GOT to stand up to bullys. That's the only thing that they understand.

I am still cordial now to many of them - but I have NOTHING to do with them socially. Ever.

But I keep the peace as long as they do.

If they break it, all bets are off, again.

[yellerpup]

97. Great strategy

I'm going to remember that.

[Yollam]

17. My Mom & Her Hubby are repug greedheads.

The stepdad still makes his little pronouncements about the "Free market" and how brilliantly it functions, blah blah blah - it's a matter of faith with him, and he can't repeat it enough.

But they know how much I despise Bush, and they're intelligent enough to know a failure when they see one, so they haven't said a word about Bush & co. to me in at least 2 years.

And far be it from me to rub it in...

[deFaultLine]

18. My Parents too

I think both of them are seriously senile now. I actually told my mom that she was paranoid...and I was totally serious about it.

I end up leaving abruptly when they start going off, no fanfare or anything. I just leave. Sad thing is that they have actually forgotten about it the next time I see them.

[Lady Effingbroke]

31. That is so sad. I wish the bst for you and your parents.

:hug:

[Hubert Flottz]

19. "over stupid politics"

Think about what politics REALLY means, to everyday people...To the guys coming back from Iraq in Coffins...To the old folks that can't afford the pills they need to stay alive...To the homeless people in New Orleans...To the children who really have been left behind in a bloody heap in some little shit hole in a far away land...To the people who are even afraid to talk on their own telephone.

If you are smart enough to know right from wrong, you should be smart enough to know that politics is very important, to every living thing.

Edit...My point is...STAND YOUR GROUND, when you know you are right.

[Lady Effingbroke]

34. I know, Hubert, and I know that politics is not stupid.

I did not phrase that very well. Politics are VERY important to me, and I think it is tragic that family relations are put in jeopardy over political matters that should be equally important to other family members.

At the end of the day, their pockets are being picked, too - they are just too willfully ignorant to acknowledge it.

[Hubert Flottz]

41. It was hard for me to do too, but I have turned my back on a lot of...

people forever, over politics since 2000. I can't be friendly anymore, with people who are a supporting part of this willful destruction, of my country and what the USA had stood for, for over 200 years. FDR never needed to torture anyone, to win a far worse war, than the "War On Terror". I can not break bread anymore, with people who would help the wealthy steal from the helpless and then to claim that God told them to do it.

I don't like liars. Especially the ones who lie to themselves! I know where you are coming from in your OP and I hurt right along with you and wish it didn't have to be this way. I come to DU anymore for friendship, more than I go around a lot of the folks who I once thought were my friends. I trust people I've never met before more than I trust my "Old Friends." It's sad the hurt these people have caused simply for political gain. I'm starting to think the damage can't ever be undone.

[serryjw]

21. Just remind your parents

IT's all about Clinton's BJ.

[Lady Effingbroke]

36. That's what they think!

The Almighty Clenis -The Most Powerful Force In The Universe! :crazy:

[serryjw]

37. So do millions

Monica should be proud...A BJ that will make history for years.

[liberal N proud]

22. I talked with my brother this afternoon, He was proud his only son

was going to Afghanistan the week after he get married.
He didn't understand my sadness, thought it was great his boy was going to war.

[PublicRadioVet]

58. He's probably just proud to have a serving son

Especially if he, at any stage, also served, either in peace or in war.

Besides, if I had a child I knew was going off to the GWOT I'd sure as hell show pride and wave the flag. The last thing a young troop needs to see as he is getting on the plane is his or her parents wailing on the tarmac, as if he or she is already dead. Bad way to send 'em off. Terrible for morale, and morale is EVERYTHING. Save those tears for the ride home, I say. But in front of the serving son or daughter, chin up! CHIN UP!

[IndigoE]

24. Vile hate radio

turned my father, formerly an old fashion conservative, into a raving foaming lunatic. He had always been a Republican but in the past we had interesting, lively debates, agree to disagree, hug and that was it. After the vile hate radio ditto head culture gave him "permission" to be a racist, homophobic, war monger... he became one. Was it lurking there all along?? Or was it insecurity looking for a scapegoat or two?

Whatever it was, he changed and we couldn't talk anymore. Its sad but I think it happened to a lot of families. :nopity:

[xxqqqzme]

39. you may be on 2 that 'permission' thing

my brother's is from, literally, YEARS of listening 2 limpballs...my mother worships o'really!

[Patsy Stone]

43. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

That's a very thoughtful post. I was thinking of how to approach the problem in the OP and you mentioned a factor I forgot to include: the RW radio a-holes spewing forth 24/7.

Nice to see you here and pleasecontinue posting!

[tenshi816]

53. I strongly feel that Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity,

Coulter and all the other members of their little club are guilty of hate crimes. You're right, these guys have made it "OK to hate people". First Democrats and liberals, then minorities and gays and pacifists. It ends with hating everybody who's not exactly like them.

I used to wonder how the Germans could allow the Nazis to treat the Jews as they did, but I imagine it started in a similar fashion. It became acceptable to hate and fear their "otherness".

It makes me very uneasy to think that vast swathes of the American people are thinking that way too.

[wildeyed]

79. I think the same thing happened to my FIL.

He was a moderate, fiscally conservative R, but now he watches Fox and listens to Rush. I don't think he really knows what he thinks anymore. He is a fearful, incurious, inflexible person by nature. The haters give him permission to indulge his natural passivity and bigotry.

I don't talk politics with my in-laws, but my husband still trys. He is very depressed by their change, and thinks they have betrayed the true conservative values he was raised with.

My husband asked his parents what they thought about Vietnam at the time it was happening. He said that they ignored it as best they could. If they ignored Vietnam when they were young, there is no way they are going to find a sudden reservoir of courage to think critically about the Iraq issue.

[BeachBuckeye]

27. Sadly this is taking place in many families

Even my own. I have an Uncle whom I have always loved and admired. But this past couple of years he has derided me and scorned me for my views. There is no reasoning with him whatsoever. Sadly, I must just leave him alone from now on. I'll next see him at his funeral or he'll see me at mine.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

28. for a very long time I faced the same problem with my mother

Then she decided to become active in the Methodist Church, which has all but excommunicated 'b.' Republicans did the rest w/ the immigration issue. I topped it off one day when she was especially mad about the Mexicans by renting Fahrenheit 9/11 and watching it with her. She said afterwards, "I'm sick of that liar."

[tenshi816]

54. My dream is to have my dad watch Fahrenheit 9/11.

I've thought about sending him the DVD but I know he'd never watch it of his own volition and my stepmother would probably actively prevent him from watching it. If he ever sees the film, it will be because I'm there to put it in the DVD player.

[Kansas Wyatt]

30. They are realizing BushCo & Republicans, Inc. have screwed

Everything up, but they are desperately clinging to seeking out an easy target in you, since you don't want to sink to that level. They know, the more they belittle you about which side you are on, the more pissed they are about being manipulated by BushCo & Republicans, Inc. You are their outlet and attempt to re-live the delusional BushCo glory days.

[Warpy]

32. There is NOTHING YOU CAN DO about parents.

Trying to talk to them about this will only make them more defensive. Likely they suspect they are wrong but they are scared. It's a terrifying thing, admitting you were lied to and that you were gullible enough to buy the whole thing: lock stock and bamboozle.

I used to get up and leave the room. If I came back, I'd just ask "Are you done yet?" If they started to rant, I'd just leave again, sit on the portch, go for a walk, climb into the car and go out to a mini mart, SOMETHING to just get me away from that garbage. Eventually they learned that if they wanted my company, they'd have to leave wingnut dumbfuckery out of the conversation.

My pop was always a right winger, but after my mother went blind, he controlled the news, and it was Lush Rimjob, all the way. I knew I couldn't change them, so I let them rave and rant. Without me.

[LuckyLib]

44. This is the key. Rising above their nuttiness and refusing to

be dragged in. But make a clear announcement that you will be leaving (the room, the house, etc.) whenever they get on their rants. You're refusing to participate. "Why would we want to discuss this? We'll never agree and it just causes tension." It puts you in a peaceful place and focuses them on their own behavior. You have my sympathy. I'm on the other extreme -- Republican parents (in the 60's --we had doozy fights over Vietnam) who read enough and figured out they were being sold a bill of goods. They are rip-roaring liberals (now 83/92), with Dad calling Bush "That son-of-a-bitch in the White House." Surround yourself with like-minded folks (DUers!!) and move on.

[Warpy]

101. Exactly. There was a great deal of acrimony over Vietnam

and that's when I developed the habit of walking away. It always took about five years after the fact for my pop to start saying what I'd been saying five years previously, and always as though it was his own idea. I just called it lag time and dealt with it.

To his credit, although he voted for tax cuts in 2000 and got Stupid, he did say he voted for Kerry in 2004. I was stunned by that admission, it was the closest he'd ever come to saying I'd been right about anything.

He's gone now and the world is a poorer place without him. He was my pop, lousy politics and all, and once I walked away from the politics, I was able to make three decades of peace.

[waiting for hope]

40. I know exactly where you are...

not only are my parents Repugs, both my brothers are too. Thank God I have one Sister-in-Law who is a staunch Irish Catholic Democrat...or else I'd lose my mind....I think they have started to realize how bad it is though for now it's becoming really painful to bring anything up concerning politics, federal or state level. I thank my lucky stars everyday for putting the words "Hate Bush" in Yahoo and finding this site....Hang in there!:hug:

[Marr]

42. Tell them you're not interested in joining their cult, so will they

please stop selling you the silly fairy tales.

I understand you don't want to insult your family members- but I'm sorry- if someone is treating me with disrespect I return the favor. I don't care what their last name is. Some people are bullies.

[Elwood P Dowd]

45. Ask them how they are going to pay $70,000 in new debt they owe

thanks to Bush running up 7 trillion in budget and current account deficits during his two terms. It's up to 1.3 trillion a year and growing. Looks like the total will easily hit 7 trillion. Bushit inherited a small current account deficit and a small budget surplus from Clinton. Add the two together, and you basically were at zero. Now look at it!

There are 100 million households in this country. 7 trillion divided by 100 million is $70,000. Bush is borrowing hundreds of billions of dollars a year from Saudi Arabia, Communist China, UAE, and Japan to cover this. In fact, Bush has borrowed more money from foreign sources than the previous 42 presidents combined! The American people will have to pay this back with increased taxes or by printing more money (inflation).

[Patsy Stone]

47. He's the dividerer.

If you do choose to get into "discussions" I would refrain from giving too many facts at one time. How about bringing up, in a nostalgic way, how much better things were in the 90s?

"I remember we drove from X to Y on $50 worth of gas. Boy, that wasn't even that long ago."

For people who won't recognize the facts in front of them, maybe trying the "how does it affect you" way might be better. I saw a thread here about someone who made the point to a family member that the NSA scandal *did* affect them by placing a call to his brother where he said, bin Laden, al-Qaeda, etc... Then turned around and said, "you're probably on a list now".

Try to make it relevant to their daily lives. Medicare? Social Security? Those poor people with no pension at Enron? You get the idea. Make it apply to them, or you, personally.

Good luck!

[Lady Effingbroke]

49. Thanks for the reply, Patsy.

Sorry for my own late reply!

I live in Houston and have a friend who worked at Enron, along with her husband. They both got laid off in the fiasco. They are in their early 50s and are now struggling to get by - they lost their life savings, and she is working hard to get through nursing school.

I brought them up as an example and it just sailed right over my folks' heads.

I guess if it doesn't affect them directly, then they don't give a damn. Sad.

[Stargleamer]

48. Actually, even if there's nothing you could do about them. . .

maybe you can explain to us what it is about the Bush Administration they find so appealing. Is it because the Administration is anti-abortion? Is it because it's anti-gay? If Bush would come out in favor of a tax increase, would they leave him them? Is it because of the people they associate with, they feel a conservative outlook helps them at church?

I'm sure many of us here can't quite fathom what draws people to conservatism--except for the extremely rich, who gain windfalls during an Administration like Bush's, most people don't benefit from it. And so many people are harmed by its neglect and idiocy.

It's hard to fathom who would want tax cuts for the extremely wealthy, when so many are struggling in this country.

[Lady Effingbroke]

50. I have no real idea why they are so rigidly Republican.

I think it may very well be all of the negative connotations that the right wing has so sucessfully attached to the word "liberal".

My mother still thinks that "Conservatives" actually conserve money and "Liberals" spend it - liberally, of course! :rofl:

That despite the fact that * and his misAdministration are spending money like a shipload of drunken sailors (no insult to drunken sailors intended!)!!!

[tiptoe]

51. Perhaps Graphics of America's Changing Opinion re Bush and 911..??

Changing From RED to BLUE: Bush-Approval Ratings of States, Election 2004 & May 2006:

2004 Election


2006 May


and

Historical Bush Approval Ratings by Pollsters (2001-2008)



and

State by State "Net Approval" with Ratings Tracking Graphs per state (Released 5/16/06)

Example Tracking Graphs: California Indiana Wyoming Utah Nebraska Texas South Carolina etc

California


Indiana


Wyoming


South Carolina


Georgia


North Dakota


and

May 22, 2006 -- New Zogby Poll Reveals OVER 70 MILLION VOTING AGE AMERICANS DISTRUST OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY and Support New Investigation of Possible US Government Role In The Attacks

For Immediate Release
May 22, 2006
Media Contact:
Mike Berger, 314-308-4893, [e-mail]

NEW ZOGBY POLL Reveals Over 70 MILLION VOTING AGE AMERICANS DISTRUST OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY AND SUPPORT NEW INVESTIGATION OF POSSIBLE US GOVERNMENT ROLE IN THE ATTACKS.*

- 911Truth.org urges 2006 reform candidates to recognize a powerful new constituency.

(Utica, NY) - Although the Bush administration continues to exploit September 11 to justify domestic spying, unprecedented spending and a permanent state of war, a new Zogby poll reveals that less than half of the American public trusts the official 9/11 story or believes the attacks were adequately investigated.

The poll is the first scientific survey of Americans' belief in a 9/11 cover up or the need to investigate possible US government complicity, and was commissioned to inform deliberations at the June 2-4 "9/11: Revealing the Truth, Reclaiming Our Future" conference in Chicago. Poll results indicate 42% believe there has indeed been a cover up (with 10% unsure) and 45% think "Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success" (with 8% unsure). The poll of American residents was conducted from Friday, May 12 through Tuesday, May 16, 2006. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/- 2.9. All inquiries about questions, responses and demographics should be directed to Zogby International...

9/11 Revisited: Scientific and Ethical Questions - Powerpoint slideshow presented by Steven E. Jones, Professor of Physics, BYU, on Feb 1, 2006 at Utah Valley State College. (See also: Scholars for 9/11 Truth)

OUTLINE

I. Physics of World Trade Center Collapses

Collapse of World Trade Center 7 (WTC 7)

Collapses of WTC Twin Towers

Comments: Temperatures & official reports

Molten Metal Beneath All Three

II. What about the highly toxic dust?

III. Bin Laden was blamed – did he do 9/11?

IV. Did some officials have foreknowledge of impending events? Timeline up to 9/11/01?

V. Supporting the U.S. Constitution – now!

IV. Image 78 What “ORDERS”? Mineta’s Testimony

• Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta provided provocative testimony before the 911 Commission. He testified that he went down to the Presidential Emergency Operations Center under the White House at about 9:20 on 9/11/01. Vice President Cheney was there and in charge.
  
  
• “During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, "The plane is 50 miles out." "The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to "the plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the Vice President, "Do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"
  
  
• What orders? Evidently there were orders NOT to scramble military jets to intercept the plane, since the plane was known for 50, 30, and 10 miles out and yet never intercepted. The commission did not ask such questions, did not include Mineta’s testimony above in the 9/11 Commission Report ­a glaring omission (Griffin, 2005), ­and removed the video of Mineta’s testimony from the 9/11 Commission website (See www.911truthmovement.org/video/hamilton_win.wmv )
  
  
• Mineta seems an honest man. The testimony of Secretary Mineta strongly motivates further questioning under oath of the principals here and of this unidentified young man.

Former Head Of Star Wars Program Says Cheney Main 9/11 Suspect

Official version of events a conspiracy theory, says drills were cover for attacks

Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones/Prison Planet.com | April 4 2006

The former head of the Star Wars missile defense program under Presidents Ford and Carter has gone public to say that the official version of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory and his main suspect for the architect of the attack is Vice President Dick Cheney.

Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret. flew 101 combat missions in Vietnam. He is the recipient of the Eisenhower Medal, the George F. Kennan Peace Prize, the President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace, the Society of Military Engineers Gold Medal (twice), six Air Medals, and dozens of other awards and honors. His Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech. He chaired 8 major international conferences, and is one of the country’s foremost experts on National Security.

Bowman worked secretly for the US government on the Star Wars project and was the first to coin the very term in a 1977 secret memo. After Bowman realized that the program was only ever intended to be used as an aggressive and not defensive tool, as part of a plan to initiate a nuclear war with the Soviets, he left the program and campaigned against it.

In an interview with The Alex Jones Show aired nationally on the GCN Radio Network, Bowman (pictured below) stated that at the bare minimum if Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda were involved in 9/11 then the government stood down and allowed the attacks to happen. He said it is plausible that the entire chain of military command were unaware of what was taking place and were used as tools by the people pulling the strings behind the attack....

[Lady Effingbroke]

68. Wow! Thanks so much for the wonderful charts and links - bookmarked!

[Philosoraptor]

55. I can relate.

The figure 29% is used a lot lately, cause that's the lowest his approval ratings have fallen, but I'll bet it'll soon be the 20 per centers.

One thing you can look forward to is quiet gloating, but that's a small reward.

[PublicRadioVet]

56. You really think that 9/11 was an "inside" job??

This is the one part of your statement I'd be inclined to roll my eyes at as well.

9/11 was many things: Islamism catching us with our pants around our ankles, a horrible lesson in how lax our airport and air travel security was, an example of why the appeasement model of dealing with extremist Muslims was no longer an option, etc.

But it was hardly an "inside" job. There has been no hard evidence of this. Just spooky rumor. I liken the "9/11 was an 'inside' job!" theory to UFOlogy and a lot of other conspiracy theory. I also take it as a sign that some Americans cannot bring themselves to recognize an external foe, so they must forever and always invent internal foes, because these are the only foes they are comfortable fighting.

[Philosoraptor]

57. Don't think uncomfortable thoughts...just nice official stories.

It's easier on the mind. Inside job? (makes crazy sign to temple)

[PublicRadioVet]

60. Conspiracy Theory has become the New Superstition

Used to be we had a pantheon of deities in the sky that meddled in human affairs for arcane reasons, bringing disasters large and small. Since science has rid us (mostly) of our pantheon or our belief in anything beyond materialism, we invent a new set of "meddlers", often at the highest levels of government and business, operating (again) for arcane purposes and behind closed doors to bring pain and chaos to the affairs of mortal men.

I'm not much for the New Superstition. Occam's Razor and all that.

The evidence for blaming Islamists for 9/11 is mountainous and concrete.

The evidence for blaming "insiders" is anecdotal and unverifiable.

Again, some people just refuse to see an external threat for what it is. They'd rather blame a familiar foe, close to home, someone they have already identified as a "malevolent" deity, and upon whom they are comfortable heaping a laundry list of woes, great and small.

I'm not defending Bush. I am defending reason. And reason rejects the "inside job" theory on virtually all counts. I've been through this argument many times before. And I am always surprised to see that the "inside job" theory still has traction with otherwise reasonable people, especially liberals; as we're supposedly the banner-carriers of reason against the "fundie" Right.

We do ourselves as intellectuals no favors when we cling to this sort of nonsense. It's just as mystical and wrongheaded as Biblical literalism, at least in my view.

[Philosoraptor]

62. So you practice "Whatever-ism"

Whatever dude.

[PublicRadioVet]

63. If that's what you need to call it, then sure

Like the saying goes, let us not be so open-minded that our brains fall out.

[CJCRANE]

73. Occam's Razor and all that...

Let's look at the 9/11 basics:

*19 hijackers - 15 from Saudi Arabia, 2 from UAE, 1 from Lebanon, 1 from Egypt.

*Cost of the 9/11 operation - approx $500,000, money wired from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Pakistan.

All the countries mentioned above are considered 'allies' by B*sh.

Iraq - which had nothing to do with 9/11 - has suffered 'shock and awe', Abu Ghraib etc (and the scandals and atrocities continue).

All the Middle-Eastern countries which are B*sh 'allies' are absolute islamic monarchies. Iraq was a secular country. Another Bushco boogeyman - Syria - is a secular country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. read the Project for American Century

Rebuiding America's Defenses

Here you go, link and all

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

After you read about new pearl harbors and all of that, check the signatories and the date this was written, you too might have some doubts.

But I will leave the readying to you...

[Bucky]

122. pf, if PNAC did 9/11, they would've framed Iraq, not their Taliban buddies

Occam's razor slashes MIHOP to bits.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. I never said MIHOP or LIHOP

And by the by, going after Iraq and finishing the job has been a wish of some in the administration. Do the names Paul Wolfowitz, (who actually stated an early version of the Bush doctrine in 1992), Dick Chenney, Donald Rumsfeld, ring any bells?

By the way they did not have to Make it happen, they just could let it happen... 'splain to me why the August Sixth PDB "Bin Ladin Determined to Attack America" was ignored?

You use Occam, I will use Occam, and criminal thinking, who benefits? Just ask that question, who benefits?

[CJCRANE]

136. The whole 'they could've use Iraqis'

is a red herring anyway.

If they tried to use Iraqis and Saddam found out he would've scuppered the whole thing. Better to use operatives from 'friendly' countries who can be more easily funded, manipulated and facilitated.

[CJCRANE]

135. That's the whole point -

they didn't have Iraqi operatives because Iraq weasn't in on the gig.

They used al-Qaeda operatives because BFEE have back-door channels to the Saudi fundamentalists since the days they paid Osama to fight the Russians, not to mention
B*sh family personal and business connections in that part of the world.

[Lady Effingbroke]

71. I readily admit my lack of knowledge relative to many, many people

regarding the events on September 11, and I wish I knew more about what happened that day.

Everything I have read, however, leads me to believe that the US government was in some way involved in the actions on that day, whether passively sitting by with foreknowledge while America was attacked or actively aiding and abetting the process in order to further certain preconceived plans (PNAC).

I believe that if the facts can be fixed around the policy regarding the invasion of Iraq, then they can be fixed around the events of September 11, as well - the PNAC statement of principles was drawn up several years before 9/11.

[Bucky]

123. M'Lady, PNAC's malevolence doesn't require a 9-11 conspiracy

PNAC wanted a war with Iraq. No one disputes that. But you can't jump from that fact to the conclusion that they planned 9/11. There is no logical train of evidence. If anything, the pathetic after-the-fact scramble to pin 9/11 in Iraq demonstrates how utterly clueless the Bushies were right up to that terrible day. If they were going to frame anyone for 9/11, why frame the al-Qaeda guests of their Taliban chums? There's no logic, no planning to it.

If anything has been demonstrated over the past five years, it is that the Bushies don't make subtle moves, don't plan well, can't see beyond their own basic wants, and can't think too clearly into the future. There's a strong pattern of black and white, good and evil kneejerk thinking on their part. They simply lack the core competance to carry out a conspiracy. Shit, they even couldn't plant phony WMDs in Iraq. This is not a conspiracy capable crew.

There's a lot of shadow logic and triple-bank-shot hypotheses behind these conspiracy theories. But the evidence of the naked eye is that BushCo reacts to world events and doesn't plan for shit.

[B Calm]

59. My Fundy neighbors across the road think Chuckle-nuts Bush

in time will be vindicated.. Talk about delusional!!

[Hekate]

61. For conservatives who are ready, Republicans for Humility is a good site

http://www.republicansforhumility.com/

Someone here posted about it last night or the night before. The essays are well-reasoned, articulate, intelligent, well-sourced -- and convey a world of hurt at the betrayal by Bushco of true conservative principles.

>sigh< It might go over the heads of those who are utterly devoted to RW hate-spewing talk radio. But if you ever get an opening I'd give it a shot anyhow.

You have my sympathy regarding your parents. I understand about your desire for family harmony, and I can't top the very good recommendations in this thread. I wish you luck, and :hug:

Hekate

[depakid]

65. Not sure how a wingnut could talk down to anyone these days

Unless they ignore all of the evidence- and have no respect for science, economics, honesty or integrity.

These days- with all due respect to your folks, supporting Bush and the Republican party is something reasonable people would be embarassed and ashamed of. Maybe that's something you might allude to next time they talk down to you.

[IdaBriggs]

66. Find ONE PAINFUL & HONEST THING to say to them when they disrespect

your request *NOT* to discuss politics.

For example, "I keep forgetting what Good Germans you are." And then walk away.

Or, here's another one: "Please stay Republicans; I don't want anyone thinking folks like you are members of the Democratic party." And then walk away.

Or if you really want to get them: "Of course you are Republicans. You are narcissistic abusive assholes, with no respect for anyone else, and therefore you support Evil People. It's a "like attracts like" type of thing, I guess." And then walk away.

At this point in time, you are starting to enter into the world of "crazy" -- you have been doing the same thing over and over again, and you have expected different results.

You tried to explain complicated concepts to people who obviously don't have the brain power to grasp them. You have asked to be respected as a guest in their home, and they have abused you. You have refused to acknowledge that these people are only interested in what makes THEM feel good, and that they don't give a rat's ass about anyone but themselves.

Try something different now. Hit them with one sentence of truth, and then WALK AWAY.

Frankly, since you are willing to "be abused" by them, there is no reason for them to stop. In my family (which is dysfunctional and has been abusive in the past) I have learned an extremely valuable lesson: with obnoxious, narcissistic, abusive people, the best thing to do is make ATTACKING YOU so PAINFUL TO THEM that they decide to STOP DOING IT. Depriving them of the "glory" of your presence is one way, but also visibly showing your scorn and contempt is another. Secretly these people are insecure, and if you are "strong" they will STOP attacking you -- but ONLY if you make it worth their while.

Accept the fact they aren't going to treat you with love and respect, and kick their fricking asses. I promise you that it will be the beginning of a much more ... peaceful and less stressful relationship, even if you end up estranged from them for a while.

Good luck! :)

ON EDIT: Or you can just either send them this link, or print it off to show them that they are really getting some "good" publicity for being such bad people, and that the way they treat you isn't a secret anymore. Abusive people *really* hate that! :evilgrin:

[Lady Effingbroke]

72. Thank you for your reply - and your honesty!

I guess the reason that I am confused is that we do get along reasonably well except for our differing political beliefs. It is jarring to go from laughing and joking about inane things such as Brangelinas' baby :eyes: one moment to fighting over politics the next.

I agree that they are abusing and disrespecting me by refusing to accept without argument that I have a different political outlook than they do and I also realize that I don't defend myself adequately when I am attacked. A lifetime of conditioning myself to quietly respect their point of view no matter what is difficult to overcome!

your post has made me realize that a period of estrangement of some length is more than likely forthcoming - I can only restrain myself in the name of family harmony for so long.

Thank you so much for your insight - I think I will be printing this thread for future reference!
:)

edit: speling

[flyarm]

74. During the vietnam war..i was a serious protestor to my dads chagrine

my dad was a dem but he was a WWII vet..and he believed we should support our government no matter what...

when i began going to protests ..my dad became enraged...he was close to disowning me he was that angry at me.....

it was the only contnetious thing we had through all my adult life...

he never ever agreed with me..he felt it was the youth protests that lost the war in vietnam...

he would never put the onus on a government failure...

and yet he hated MacArthur who he served under...

it wasn't until the last couple days of my dads life..that he held my hand and told me ..i was right and he was wrong about Vietnam...
he told me he was proud of me for fighting so vigilantly against the vietnam war...
he said our government failed our youth..and got our troops killed needlessly...

it was a humbling moment for my dad...and a shock to me...
he told me he always thought the rest of my brothers and sisters were strong and that i was not..he felt that i just followed my peers..

and he said how wrong he was..he held my hand and stroked my face and said..you are the strong one..because you stood up for what you believed and never retreated..he said you educated yourself ..and you fought against the mainstream when it wasn't popular..and when others stood by ignorantly, including himself.

he said i was right and he was very wrong..but he was proud of me for never walking away from my ideals and values...

there was alot more but i won't bore you...

what my point is..do not give up in what you believe...not even for your parents...

wars are evil...they divide so many ..and yet it is something we run away from discussing like adults...
i walk into rooms today or parites and people try their damnest to stop me from talking..but it doesn't work ..because i face people head on..family and friends alike...

my views may not be what they want to hear..but they will hear them nonetheless!

i always go to a party with my own talking points written down..so i can confront all who cheer on this war..
and i now carry recruitment papers for all who say they love * and support this war..i tell them..then get your ass over there...
and when they say they are too old..i tell them about a 52 yr old grandma of 6 grandchildren who was just sent to basic for deployment...to iraq..

i accept no excuses..
i am glad and proud to defend my beliefs that this war is illegal and was planned long before idiot son even ran for president..i always carry card like papers with web sites and the ulr for PNAC and i challange people to read PNAC and Rebuilding Americas defences..

i tell them my co-workers on 9/11 were killed by this administration..either by neglect and total failure or they made it happen and i leave it to them to figure it out...but i challange them with facts head on..
becuse i refuse to let ignorant people fill a wall with 56,000 more of our citizens because of lies...by a bunch of cowards who never fought for this country when they very well could have!

yes i get the eye rolls..and yes many walk away ..but it will not be me that walks away...

it will only be dialog and educating people to real facts that will end this war...and no one will intimidate me to shutting up while we have troops in harms way...all for damn lies...

i even come home and giggle sometimes when i turn people ..or make them "think"

since we are a society that does not "think" anymore..i will be their consience..and i will make it impossible for those i know to walk around with false bravado for this nation...
i make anyone i meet feel like a fool on purpose..because i ask them questions they can not answer because they are uneducated to whats really going on...

there is a very powerful tool we can all use..and thats "truth"..and i will face head on anyone who lays ignorant to truth..

don't give up on your folks..go armed with facts..and throw them in their faces when they bring up politics..slap them in the face with facts and truth..do not retreat...do not make it easy for them to bully you with lord pissy pants bullshit

it may be uncomfortable at first..

but think of the soldiers every day living in discomfort in iraq and afganistan...

they are not facing your parents..they are facing ied's for no damn reason but lies..and greed...
force feed it ..if you have to ..but never retreat from the truth

write it down if you have to ..write down the pertainant facts..make copies and take them with you of the profound lies of this administration..and throw the facts in your parents faces if you must...

without educating the ignorant fox kool aide drinkers..we will never stop this illegal war...
we must enter into dialog everyday..even if we must get on a soap box to do so...

thats the so called "joke " people say about me..there she goes she's on her soap box...but from my soap box i have educated and turned so many ..and educated so many...that when i once was a pain in the ass..now i am among the majority who now hate lord pissy pants...

all because i refused to back down..and i refused to walk out of a room..i made people face the lies they were believing ..

do not give up on your folks..it all starts there...among all of our families...face them head on with truth and facts...

fly

[Lady Effingbroke]

80. I am sitting here with tears in my eyes at the thoughtfulness

of your reply.

I feel foolish prattling on about a very minor personal problem as I sit here, safe and well-fed, in light of the life-threatening issues faced by our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. However I also think that it is minor personal problems such as mine multiplied many times over that help to keep our soldiers over there - a profound disagreement among American citizens which is aiding the US government in their plans.

I shall continue to do my best to enlighten my family (and others who think as they do) with the facts of the matter.

Thank you for the idea of writing down pertinent facts. It seems that I have all of the information organized in my mind, but when asked to prove my point, I go blank. :blush: I'm not very good at defending myself. Having written facts in hand will help enormously!

[zanne]

76. If you speak your mind and don't let them shout you down...

They'll decide to keep politics and family separate. Take it from somebody who knows.

[Bassic]

77. I know what you mean.

My dad is pretty conservative and refuses to listen to the voice of reason. It can be quite aggravated.

[Deja Q]

78. Unless they're acting, too scared to go into the secret prison camps.

Anything is possible.

[Lady Effingbroke]

85. Anything is possible - I agree.

Hell, I have moments where I think I'm already there if the gates are ever opened - and so may my family (and we all) be.

The brainwashing and conditioning in this country is so complete that if barbed wire were strung around the yards of people such as my parents and guard towers placed on all four corners they'd still be saying "prison camp? I don't see a prison camp!"

[newportdadde]

81. My wifes close friends are in the 29% also.

It is all about abortion for them, nothing else matters.

[flyarm]

83. then ask them if

its ok for us to be killing only brown skinned children??

since before this war began over 50% of Iraq was under the age of 15 yrs old..and we have now killed approx 250,000 iraqi's..if 50 % were children before the war..there is a good chance that 125,000 dead now were children..ask them how they live with being hypocrites!!

and how they feel about being complict in the killing of 125,000 iraqi children??

ask them if their feelings about abortion only take into account unborn children and not living children ...

or if they only give a damn about American unborn??

and also ask them how they feel about all the deformed children that will be born by our soldiers and the children of Iraq who will be born with all sorts of deformities because of the depleted uranium we have dumped all over iraq..

if they do not understand that..have some ulr's written down for them to look up what we are doing to future generations of babies ..make sure to have pictures of children in iraq dead or in hospital ..dying...

and say ..thats what you have done to the children of iraq..ask them if they are proud today of their legacy to children!

fly

[Lady Effingbroke]

88. Thanks, flyarm - you're a gem!

I am childless but have a 3 year old niece. The next time my family starts praising *, I am (finally!) going to ask them if they care about her future, as she is too young to speak on her own behalf.

It is apparent to me at this point that they do not. :(

[glitch]

128. Tell them the abortion rate went up a lot under Bush.

It had gone down a lot under Clinton.

[libhill]

84. I think it's a common problem -

I have the same problem with my daughter and son in law. They're Repukes and they think Bush is wonderful. My son in law is a Repuke of the "it's all Clinton's fault" stripe. I've gotten to where I don't even discuss it with them anymore. People like that are beyond all reasoning.

[flyarm]

95. how willing are you to give up your nation to evil??

thats what it comes down to folks..by walking away from the uncomfortable..we are giving up our most precious nation...

people fought for our rights..are we so willing to wimp out and not fight for truth and honesty?? are we so willing to let a minority steal our constitution and shred it and our bill of rights??

because some choose to stay ignorant are we so willing to walk away and destroy our country because we don't want to make waves??

not me folks...

my co-workers died on 9/11 and i have seen their deaths be used by little lord pissy pants..because of either his complicity in 9/11 or he made it happen...

tommorrow will it be your co-workers??

tommorrow will it be your neighbors??

tommorrow will it be your family member??

i grew up and lived in the town with 2 of the Jersey wives who fought tooth and nail against a nation for a 9/11 commission..and they will not give up fighting for the truth...nor will many who worked in the airlines involved..although we may be silenced..we still have our ways of getting to the truth for all..

my hometown lost the most people on 9/11 out of Ny..Middletown NJ..look it up..people lost were people i grew up with...

i was "flight attendant of the year" NY base, for my airline in 2001 , one of the airlines involved..

those were my co-workers and neighbors..

my son graduated from a school with 114 kids..we lost many of the parents of those kids...

so you don't want to make waves..will these evil bastards kill someone you know and love next??



so you don't want people think ill of you now..so what... you can have comrodery with people who will allow this nation to become fascist??

a theocracy?

so you won't fight family or friends with truth ...and we should all become as evil as our current leaders??

sometimes it takes making waves.. to awaken the ignorant..

i live on a very republican resort island now..as i retired a bit after 9/11 as i no longer trust my government..and i knew i had to do something about the damn lies of this administration and the lies of 9/11..and i knew i had to go out and speak the truth and educate as many as i could to the evils of this empire thrust upon us by ignorant , uninformed Americans...

..i had huge signs on my home all last summer during the "season of tourists"

i have a roof top deck and i had signs hanging that were huge..with * lies and murders..with red dripping from the one sign..the other sign i asked how many more Casey Sheehans will we be responsible for...with also red paint ( blood) dripping...i got mostly honks of support..it was in all the newspapers here on the east coast...

yes i had neighbors who didn't like it..and i thought tough..if it does nothing more than make people think.or sit on the beach and begin dialog or just talk to each other..than i have done what needs to be done..make people talk!

and yes at the end of the season someone found a law making me remove the banners...and the town gave me 15 days to remove the banners...i removed them on the 15th day..but i also made the town make all businesses with banners remove their banners as well..if i had to remove mine.. they had to remove theirs!!

so now i have devised a new way to display the truth..we are an island with tons of flags..american flags..but people fly 2 flags on their poles..one american flag and one with their town logo..

i have a dear friend ..another DU'er( i adore her!) making me two flags..one red one yellow...with * lies and i forget what the other one is..( brain lapse)

i will fly them on my 36 foot flag pole .. that is lit up at night as well...

so if they make me remove that flag..they will have to make everyone on the entire island remove their second flag! and i am on the main road that everyone must go by and will see it!

oh and a family lives on my street that lost their son in the WTC ..and they whole heartedly agree with me! and they cheer me on!!

like i said..if it does nothing more than make people open dialog..thats what i want..we have all succummed to keeping silent ..with our familes and friends...no more for me..they can love me or hate me..i don't give a damn...but unless we talk..unless we communicate the truth... we will not stop the next neighbors from dying or the next co-workers or friends from dying at the hands of the evil bastards who are running and ruining our country..the blood will not be on my hands...

will it be on yours?? because you don't want to make waves??

go armed with truth..the truth will never let you down...people may ..but the truth will not!

fly

[libhill]

100. Good post -

and I somewhat agree - however, I prefer to do my fighting at the voting booth, and by canvassing friends and neighbors for support. Squabbling with my daughter only gets my blood pressure up...

[Lady Effingbroke]

103. I feel like such a wimp for remaining silent and not defending myself

adequately when confronted.

However my family, misguided Repubs that they are, are the only people I can really, truly count on in case of an emergency.

I know that if worse came to worse, they would be there for me at this point because I have gone to some trouble not to alienate them through too much argument or disagreement.

For me, at least, it is somewhat difficult...

on edit: This post is incredibly selfish. I guess I have to get over my selfishness and do what's best for my country. It's tough for me to do - worry about my country before myself.

[flyarm]

113. its hard ..its damn hard..but once you get your voice..no one can stop you

i was a lone wolf after 9/11 remember i lived in a town that lost many..people werein fear and hurting terribly...

but i knew as a flight crew with one of the airlines involved immeidately that something was very wrong with the "official story"..it was drastically wrong..and i began speaking out about it..and i was isolated horribly as i was a lone voice among a very raw wound..it was all around me..in every way..

those i worked with were frustrated and angry..and those i lived around were scared..

when i began speaking out i was shunned..by friends and family...but i knew americans were being lied to in every way..

i didn't know where to turn with the truth..and i made many mistakes...i didn't know how to use the internet..other than to sign in at work..and that was secure emails by the company..

but i reached out to the internet and learned the computer..and i began posting on aol message boards..

again i was almost a lone ranger..there were a few open to learning and helped me educate others..but it was lonely to know the truth and have it captured in my brain..i could not eat or sleep...because i "knew " it was all lies and bullshit...
but i learned to get my voice..and the more i spoke out and the more people began to see the light ..the more i had to speak out...i knew it was my responsibility as an American..

start small..work on one person...use facts..copy them or write them down...

i was never looked for a public persona...but i began speaking at events to get the word out there..i even ran an election and became a delegate to dem conv..who me ?? i thought who was i kidding..i was a flight attendant..not a politican...but i won..and i won with truth...and i got to have my voice heard...

little ole me...and i got to tell more and more people the truth...

yes my friends and family still resisted the truth...but i would not be silenced ...not by anyone...i was ridiculed..and avoided..until they could no longer ignore the truth...

now my greatest feeling came when a friends husband ..a rabid republican asked me at the end of last summer to take a walk with him on the beach..he asked me to sit on the beach when we got there and he said to me..i owe you an appology...he said..i never wanted to listen to you or hear what you had to say..he said you never deviated ..and you never talked down to anyone ..you just tried to teach us the truth...and he said i appologise..i was one who often made jokes about you behind your back..and he said he was wrong..he said ..you wee right all along..on everything..

i told him i don't care about being right..i said i care about saving my country..and i care that no one else has sleepless nights..and has nightmares knowing what it is like on an aircraft in trouble and our government does not respond as they are mandated to..i told him i hope no one else has the nightmres i have knowing damn well my government killed my co-workers and people on the ground ...

i said i have been in emergencies in the air..and one minute is a lifetime when something is seriously wrong mid air..and that my co-workers on flt 11 called in an emergency 34 minutes before they crashed into the WTC..i know it had to be terrifying..i know that fear..the adreniline ..i know that anguish and the government..our government allowed the failure of Norad..not once but 4 times..with 4 jumbo jets...planes i flew...i said ..now its your turn to tell the truth and educate yourself...i said, do not think telling me ..you appologize.. gets you off the hook..i said now you must educate..your children , your family and your friends..i said ..it is your reponsibility to your constitution..its the "we the people " part..i said it was his job now..to tell the truth and to pass on the truth..no matter how hard it was..it was his job now..

look the revolution to make us a republic was not easy..the drawing of our constitution was not easy for those involved..the fighting for our bill of rights was no easy..fighting in WWI was not easy..fighting WWII was not easy...my dad fought in the So pacific in the jungles..what was easy about that?? and he was left for dead by MacArthur..was that easy?? hell no...how many fought for their lives in hitlers camps?? was that easy?? how many perished and how many stood silent??

nothing in life is easy..our democracy has come too easy for too many if us...

its why we have chosen to remain silent and why europeans have stood up against this regime of ours..the people of europe have seen too many wars and too many deaths to remain silent...we have alot to learn from them in only our infantsy...

its time we take our place at the table and take our responsibilities to our democracy seriously...

no its not easy...

but the alternatives suck...

i will not sit back while ignorant americans destroy my constitution or my bill of rights..i will not sit back while my government lies daily about everything ..but most of all about 9/11 and this fucking lie of a war...

if it means loosing friends or family..well, so be it..

it has lost me my sister ..we have now not talked since 2 weeks after 9/11..she will have to live with her complicity of this war and of the lies of 9/11

my consience is clear..

my legacy will be what i leave my children and the children of the future of this nation...

and i will be damned if that legacy will be the destruction of this nation by her most ignorant ..of the truth!

fly

[sendero]

87. Same problem here..

... except I handle it poorly, I just go on a 5-minute rant and basically tell them they are clueless.

The last one happened last summer, and I decided after that not to talk politics with them any more. If they bring it up, I'm going to make one comment and move on.

My parents are old, set in their ways, actually believe Bill O'Really. I live day by day, hoping to never get that stupid.

But they are my parents and I love them and I don't want to fight about it. If it was a peer, they'd learn to keep their mouths shut about politics around me if they are pro-Bush.

[spooky3]

90. Very similar situation here. It's so sad.

I live an airline flight away, so we don't get together frequently and we're together too much at a stretch. These are not good conditions for getting along when you have very different views. I'm not sure we've worked out a good solution but here are a few things for your consideration.

1. My parents listen only to Faux News and it is impossible to counter all of the lies they have been told so often that they completely believe them, so I don't try. Also they live in a very red area (although the polls show Bush has lost tons of approval there too) and recently changed churches becuase their old one was "too liberal" so their beliefs are reinforced by people they interact with.
2. What's wrong with the situation is that they are being rude in imposing a conversation on you, knowing that you disagree with their views and that you don't want to have conflict. I don't know what motivates this. Is it a wish to control you as if you were still a child, when they could get away with it? You are being very polite in trying not to discuss things that are uncomfortable.
3. Does it happen because you have little in common with them to talk about? If so, can you try to prepare before you see them by thinking about questions about their lives that you can ask, or sports, celebrity gossip or movies or books or something else?
4. The larger the group (especially with children), the better, because it gives people more topics to talk about. I'm fortunate to have a brother who is more liberal than I am, and if he and his wife are in the mix, there will either be no political talk or they will be evenly matched.
5. Don't give up hope. During one of my recent visits, my dad brought up the Plame scandal and could not understand why they have not thrown the book at Novak. So there are glimmers of understanding that come through and you may find some common ground.
6. Do they respond to the moral angle on things? My parents consider themselves very moral and ethical (because they are Christians). But when they blamed all of the Katrina problems on state and local (Dem) officials, I decided it was time to call them on moral values. I said that there's plenty of blame to go around, but legally and morally it is the job of the federal government to care for people when such a huge disaster hits--no town or even state has the capacity to deal with the aftermath--and they failed miserably. Societies are judged by how they treat the least fortunate among us, and right now we are shameful.

I got no response to that one--the subject was changed.

[Lady Effingbroke]

98. Thank you for your reply - many interesting points to consider!

1. We also live in a very red area (Houston) and my family absorbs Faux News talking points like mother's milk.

2. Although kind, they are very controlling. Could it be that by trying to control me as if I were still a child, they are avoiding confronting their advancing age?

3. It does happen because we have little in common to talk about. Once the usual sports and celebrity gossip is disposed of, which doesn't take long as I do not follow sports and despise the whole media celebrity circus, the political sniping begins. I do try to keep the conversation focused on their lives as much as possible - even if I am not particularly interested in their reply, I do act as if I am.

4. I completely agree that the larger the gathering the better. I have a rather small family, but others being present definitely helps deflect and distract attention from what they see as "crazy Lady Eff".

5. Sometimes I see tiny glimmers of hope, (my father said he understood the energy crisis we face, although he may simply have been humoring me), but they flare briefly and fade quickly. I think all of the corporate media that they expose themselves to overwhelms their capacity for critical thinking.

6. I suppose they are moral, although, oddly for such hardcore Repubs, they are very secular and show no interest in religion or church. This angle is still worth pursuing, however.

Thanks for a wonderful post! :hi:

[spooky3]

114. You're welcome!

:hi:

[Ladyhawk]

91. Yo...my entire family are 29%ers and will ALWAYS side with the Repubs.

They honestly agree with fascist principles, so it's pretty hard to make any headway. :shrug:

I've simply decided it's okay for me to leave if they start in on me...or to ask them to leave if they are in my space. In some ways they have me by the short hairs because I'm disabled and dependent on them. I'm really not sure what to do either physically or emotionally because the truth is I still love my mother, my grandmother, my aunt, etc. I don't much care for my brother, but I'm sort of stuck with him.

LH

[elehhhhna]

92. I LOVE your monicker! With a sense of humor like that...

you'll be fine!

[Lady Effingbroke]

99. Thanks, elehhhhna - I do try to keep a sense of humor!

It isn't all doom and gloom - I am simply trying to understand why people like them act and believe as they do.

[elehhhhna]

118. Once you accept that everybody's family is NUTS, it'll get easier.

They've probably been mesmersized by fear and false patriotism--just as Bush the Divider wants it. Pity them, and DO NOT ENGAGE in political discussions. Once they realize they can't engage you, they'll probably stop trying...and they may find the "space" to examine their "beliefs".

[gauguin57]

93. I have two family members who are Bush apologists (but not as loud anymore

-- guess they're feeling a little sheepish for voting for the bastard)

We've made an agreement not to bring up politics, in order to save our family gatherings from strife. You need to get your family to agree to that.

When politics do get mentioned at our family table on holidays, someone always says, "Hey, remember, we said 'no politics,'" and everyone shuts up and talks about something else.

George Effing Bush has already torn apart the country and the world. I will not allow George Effing Bush to tear my family apart, no matter how pissed off I get.

[treestar]

94. This is common and there is no reasoning with them

I have some who try baiting me.

They will say that they are disappointed with the law every chance they get, not directing the comment at me, but saying it in general so they can't be directly accused of trying to start something. No punishment under the law is good enough for them. Unless they or their family is accused. Then the laws are unfair for prosecuting them.

I was solemnly informed that all you need to get a law passed is to have a lot of money and go to DC with it.

I just said, "gee, that's a shame" and changed the subject.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. The "walk away" approach is not without its drawbacks

A professional mailing list that I'm on used to be haunted by a young man who was capable of giving perfectly reasonable advice about issues in our profession but who went into complete hate radio mode and beyond whenever politics was mentioned.

He started getting personal with people on the list and even tracking down personal information to taunt them about, so one by one, we announced that we were putting him on ignore. Only we really didn't, because we wanted to see what he would do.

He started by directing an utterly vile, hate mailbag type post at each person who put him on ignore, and when we all failed to respond, he gradually faded from the list...BUT...

In the course of his ravings, he let one thing slip: Those tirades were a deliberate tactic to avoid arguing with liberals and leftists. He said that debating with liberals and leftists was "tiresome," so he just started ranting and insulting them until they walked away in disgust.

This allowed him to feel superior and to believe that the liberals were too wimpy to stand up to his superior intellect. And of course, there was an added advantage. He never had to listen to logical contrary positions.

Note, too, that if you get into a flame war with a wingnut (or a troll on DU), they NEVER answer your main point. They always pick up on something incidental.

Example:

Troll: There should be no world hunger, because the moon is made of green cheese, and we should just go up there and mine green cheese until the moon is used up.

You: That's ridiculous! The moon is not made of green cheese. It's made of rocks.

Troll: What's wrong with green? I though you liberals were all tree=huggers. etc. etc.

Sound familiar?

[Ishoutandscream2]

104. Well, maybe better that your parents are rather than your community

AT work, at the store, on the roads, everywhere. W, W, W, W. When I read threads about the tide turning, I simply shrug my shoulders. I believe them, but quite frankly, I can't see it where I'm located.

[Lady Effingbroke]

108. It is my community, as well.

I live in Houston and still see a lot of "Wastikas" and other Dubya-related stickers.

I would love to stand at the busiest intersection in town holding a sign questioning this administration, but the efficiently fascist local police force here would have my butt in their spankin' new jail in 10 minutes.

I feel very isolated - hell, I am very isolated.

[jasmeel]

105. The "future will prove * is a good pres" argument is so flawed.

It's impossible to argue with, therefore, you can't. I think it's a way they know they can get at you because you can't talk facts when it comes to the future. All you can do is be aware that you're living in reality and they are living on the notion that they voted for a good man. Imagine having to live with the thought that you voted for a lying murderer? I can see why one would choose delusion.

Stay strong!! :grouphug:

[newspeak]

117. actually, you could ask them

why do you think Bush would go down in history as a good President? Is it because of his lying aggressive stance against Iraq? Is it because he ignored the August PDB, but looked like a great leader with his bullhorn standing on the rubble after 9/11? Is it because he has the best PR money can buy? Is it because his fantastic foreign trade policies that are harming a majority of American workers? Is it because his great environmental policies that allow his friends to further poison our air, water and deplete our resources? Is it because his fabulous medicare program that he lied to the public in regards to the cost of said program? See, I could go on and on--all you have to do is ask the questions and wait for their answers.

[Zorro]

106. Juice up your conversation with perjorative comments

"Why do you support a family that made a fortune abetting the nazis? Are you nazi sympathizers?"

"You have to be really stupid to support an administration that allows traitors to the country like Karl Rove to remain in place".

That'll shut them up.

I don't put up with that sort of crap from my family, and they've come to know they're treading on dangerous ground if they want to talk politics with me.

[Apollo11]

107. It's the deficit, stupid!

Polls are irrelevant. Nobody is going to change their opinion because of what other people think.

The best issue to defend yourself against Bush fans is the budget deficit. How worrying it is that future generations owe more than $ 7 trillions, mostly to Red China - an economy built on slave labor.

The second issue is Iraq. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld told us they knew where Saddam's WMD were at. Since then, 2465 Americans killed, and 17648 Americans wounded - according to official figures.

There are many other issues where most Democrats would disapprove of the Bush Administration, but these are the issues that trouble conservatives the most.

[dalaigh lllama]

109. You might try the drip drip drip strategy

This worked on one of my relatives. Instead of making any sweeping statements about how crooked the entire * regime is, bring articles from M$M sources (you know, those blips buried on p.30) that they would deem reliable. My drip, drip, drip campaign started with Haliburton "disappearing" several billion dollars. This was in response to the sneer about the "oil for food" scandal at the UN. I said it was curious we were hearing so much about that and nothing about Haliburton. My relative, who didn't quite believe me, googled the story and found out I was right. I've been feeding them these tidbits for about a year, and they've gone from a staunch supporter of * to "throw the bums out." Of course, it helps that they don't watch Faux news.

[pstans]

110. My in-laws are in the 29%

I know exactly how you feel. I bite my tongue almost everytime I go over there.

[The Sleeper]

111. Agree with IdaBriggs....

You ask them to respect boundaries. They repeatedly violate those boundaries or in other words disrespect YOU, then they must pay.
It's all about their validation, at your expense. It's not about open dialogue or the truth. Fucking RW Talking Head Assclown methodology says it's OK to treat us "traitors" this way.....even if we are people they otherwise love dearly.....we are liberals, and therefore DESERVE this.


They love to dish it out. Doubt they can take it, though. That will be their ultimate undoing....

[Lady Effingbroke]

115. I would like to thank everyone for replying - I did not think this topic

would be so popular!

I am off to jury duty - will check back later! :hi:

[newspeak]

119. We were at this family birthday party

and I was going to be good, not get into any political debates (even though most of my family is Democratic or apathetic). Well, we're sitting around the table, and my hubby's aunt is there with other friends and family members, and my mother-in-law just blurts out "name one good thing that * has done for this country." I thought, "here we go and I didn't start it." There was silence, then the aunt said "he cut taxes." So, I piped up and stated, "actually it looks like he cut taxes at the federal level, moreso for wealthy than the poor or middle class, but he cut state funding. Now where is the state going to get the additional funding to maintain the infrastructure?" Now the states are going to have to make up that money by increasing property taxes/sales taxes/state income taxes. Afterwards, complete silence--looking over at my mother-in-law, I could see a devilish gleam in her eyes.

[Vinca]

120. If they were my parents I'd download every photo of a dead or

maimed Iraqi child, print them out and drop them on the coffee table on the next visit. No words needed.

[Bucky]

121. With all due respect, government complicity in 9/11 is barely a theory

You can believe it if you like, but presenting it as a fact rather than a theory is more than a little inflammatory. I don't justify your parents belittling you or their ignoring the damning proof of the Downing Street Memoes, but calling someone a "good German" isn't exactly the way to go about convincing them of anything except that you don't make distinctions.

[smokey nj]

124. I'm with you in this

I don't know if it will help, but Google John Eisenhower's endorsement of John Kerry, it was published in the Manchester Union Leader in late Sept., early Oct. 2004, and print out a copy to give to your parents, it's a very powerful statement from a very credible source. If they write him off as nothing but a crazy liberal, nothing will work. I have the same problem with my sister who was brain washed by the Limbaugh pig. We NEVER discuss politics, but she's made some comments lately that lead me to believe that she's softening. I'm afraid however to push it because I'm afraid that it's just wishful thinking on my part.

[Progressive4Life]

129. I understand what you're going through

I have an aunt by marriage who worships the ground BushCo walks on and loves stirring up shit with the rest of my family (all of us either progressive Dems or Greens). Because of her vitriol, my younger uncle, his fiancée, my aunt (by blood), her husband, and I no longer associate with the crazy aunt or the uncle who is married to her. We did try to grin and bear it, but after several years, we decided it was best to cut them off.

My mom and grandparents put up with her for the sake of family peace. They have tried to bring us warring parties into "peace negotiations" (which we would accept if the crazy aunt would just stop talking politics and religion), but being a Bushie to the core, the crazy aunt refuses to see the light.

That said, this is just my story. I do not recommend this for everyone.

[Ekirh]

134. Use to be that way with my family

But now I have two family members (Uncle and my Step Dad) on my side when it comes to Bush.

Major points to my Uncle who has been a Republican all his life but has been against Bush since his first term. My Dad sadly didn't come around until after Bush got re-elected.. but at least he's come around in time for me to possibly convince him to vote against George Allen.

Dad (Life time Republican): This is Bullshit. I'm a life long Republican but I gotta say . . a fucking Democrat better take charge in 2008 cause my party doesn't have anyone worth a damn to vote for.

Step Dad has voted non Republican before (Granted it was for Perot . . TWICE) and is a fan of JFK so him turning against Bush isn't a 100 percent surprise ... but still. . nice to have family members I can have good political conversations with (Still don't 100 percent agree on all things.. but we have enough middle ground and Bush disliking to hold worthwhile chats. Heck this weekend I had a discussion with my dad that went well into the night. agreed to disagree on a lot... but also agreed a lot enough to make it worth the while)

[Justice]

137. Here is what I say to those that support Bush et al

I say, say you supported the Iraq war - okay, then what I cannot understand is if you are going to go to war, why not do it well? Why not go to war with all the might you have, do a good job? And even if you decide to go, and to go with a smaller army, when things don't go well, why not make adjustments and send in more troops and equipment? I mean, the time for reassessment and evaluation has come and gone several times, and yet no matter what, no matter how badly things are going, they say, no changes - we are staying the course. I say this while shaking my head and being incredulous. I say, if they wanted to prove the democrats wrong, why not do it well - I mean it is not like we (the US) don't have the ability to do it well, we have amazing resourses, why not "do a good job"

I say, what bothers me more than going to war is that we went in badly - I worry more about the incompetence than about whether it was right or wrong. I worry more that these guys don't actually have a clue, than I worry that they are really evil people. That is what keeps me up at night.

And you know what -- frankly that is what keeps the 29% up at night - when you say this, they nod - because they have to nod - there is nothing else to say, you aren't arguing about whether the war was right or not, you are laying out the truth - and they got nothing to say in response.

So when your mother says, history will show he was a good president - you know that is all she can say because there is not one shred of fact today that suggests Bush is anything but a complete blunder. She is just secretly praying that someone or something happens to presto turn it all around. Not gonna happen.

I'd really play with that comment about history showing he was good - by talking to her about how the war was executed and how at each turn of events decisions were made (by action or usually inaction) that prolonged the suffering, the course.

No matter what she says, your mom is quaking her in her boots - no matter what. It is not pretty, but she is.

Sorry for you, really sorry.

[Swamp Rat]

138. My 2¢

Keep to your guns and refuse to talk politics with them, at least until they act civil. Just smile and act as if the rolling of the eyes does not bother you, then come here and rant! :D

At some point you will see the crack in the ice, so to speak. Then you can make a determined move. Plan for it. Make a short list of talking points that refutes their every argument you remember hearing, then leace them with some reading material and give them some DVDs to watch. ;)

You can do it!

:kick: