Bush's war has turned our young sons into psychotic monsters.

[Philosoraptor]

http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fuj/latimes45.htm

Read this account of a 20 year old marine, who had to 'clean up' after the Haditha massacre.

Read it and weep.

Read it and try to understand what Bush and his war is doing to our best and brightest young men and women. Try to understand the anguish the returning soldiers are going through.

Read it and be ashamed.
------------------------------

Briones said he took pictures of at least 15 bodies before his camera batteries died. He said he then helped other Marines remove the bodies and place them in body bags. He said his worst moment, and one that haunts him to this day, was picking up the body of a young girl who was shot in the head.

"I held her out like this," he said, demonstrating with his arms extended, "but her head was bobbing up and down and the insides fell on my legs."

As he spoke, his mother, Susie Briones, 40, a Hanford community college teacher, who was sitting beside him at the kitchen table, silently wiped away tears.

Earlier she confided to a reporter that her son called frequently from Iraq after he experienced nightmares over the little girl.

"He called me many times," she said, "about carrying this little girl in his hands and her brains splattering on his boots. He'd say, 'Mom, I can't clean my boots. I can't clean my boots. I see her.' "

[rman]

1. damn

[BooScout]

2. I don't mean to sound harsh.......

But he should have fucking thought of that before he rushed out to sign up to go to war. Obviously he wasn't the brightest or he would never have signed up in the first place.

Sorry. I am in a pissy mood today and sick to death of people blaming everyone but themselves.

[stellanoir]

3. Some of the people signed up long before this

illegal invasion and occupation. Some of them signed up to be National Guardsmen for 1 weekend a month to primarily help in natural disasters. Some of them have been stop lossed in the back door draft.

All of them have been lied to.

[BooScout]

5. BS..... the one who cited in this article was 20.

He signed up knowing full well he would go to Iraq. What did he expect? Disneyland?

I am sick and tired of the excuses. There is NO EXCUSE for the murder of children. None.

[stellanoir]

7. I stand corrected I missed that.

Beyond that I don't believe there is any excuse for murder period with the really rare exception of self defense or defense of one who is defenseless.

There was a really eloquent post on the greatest page a couple days ago which contained a line that went something like

"America we are now controlled by those who have changed and ended the law."

It blew me away with its stark simplicity and utter veracity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1300118.

[Clark2008]

39. True, but it could have been his only economic option.

Some people simply don't have the choices, the means or the background to go straight into college.

I don't know about this kid, but we mustn't be like Freepers and lump everyone into one stereotype.

That said, I can wholeheartedly agree that there is no excuse for murder - but this guy was clean-up crew, not demolition.

Sigh - what a fucking ugly world we live in.

[Philosoraptor]

6. All of them have been lied to.

That's the awful part of it, the whole 'war' is based on shitty lies.

[applegrove]

34. I'm with you.

[LibertyorDeath]

4. sick to death of people blaming everyone but themselves

I'll second that!

[uppityperson]

35. sounds like he is blaming hiimself.

can't deal with it. tragic.

[dave123williams]

8. man, i think that guy was blaming himself....

[Philosoraptor]

9. His mind is destroyed just by what his eyes saw.

He didn't personally kill anyone, he just got there right after the massacre. All because Bush convinced him we'd been attacked by Iraqis on 9-11.

[noamnety]

12. Have you read much about the Sanford Prison Experiments?

http://www.prisonexp.org/

[LibertyorDeath]

38. The next person that quotes the "Sanford Prison Experiments"

to me as justification for extreme Aberrant Cruelty

WILL GET A LARGE GARDEN NOAM SHOVED UP THEIR A#%!!

Rest easy your not the next

Yet!

[noamnety]

40. It's not justification for individual acts

more of a condemnation of the entire system.

(Is it okay to condemn the system?)

[Ladyhawk]

42. How about an "explanation" and not a condonation...is that a word?

:P

People have motives for their actions. Understanding those motives is important for future reference. It is possible to believe in personal responsibility for crimes as well as seek to understand why those crimes occurred. Everyone involved in this massacre should be held accountable.

(It's important to note that this kid wasn't even present when the crimes took place.)

[formactv]

10. Best and brightest?

Is it the best and grightest who join the armed forces?

[Philosoraptor]

11. I'm thinking about what these young folks MIGHT have become.

Many people have killed the enemy in battle and gone on to lead productive and even important lives. They are not all mad dog killers, but under these circumstances, who knows how we'd behave.

[BooScout]

13. No it's not....

It's the excuse we use in our mad rush to support the troops no matter what.


In WWII it could arguably be used but not now.

[noamnety]

14. Sometimes it's the best and brightest, yes

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/48/17625

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/9042

http://truthout.org/docs_03/111703D.shtml

[Philosoraptor]

15. Thanks for the links. Very, very powerful words.

Bush is blind to this.

[Disturbed]

16. I read that there were two Marines that arrived

afterward and took photos. Did either of them report this massacre? This happened a year ago and we are just hearing about it.

[babylonsister]

27. This massacre was reported in TIME in March, but the

facts were still sketchy; IEDs at the time were rumored to be involved, though there were skeptics.

Here it is:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1174649,00.html

[bobbieinok]

43. AND it was discussed on DU

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Philosoraptor]

18. Too harsh?

Maybe we'll just refer to folks who wake up children at 4 a.m. and terrorize them before blowing their faces off 'confused young men', or, 'mis-directed g.i.'s', or some more pleasant platitude.

Call them what you want pal, and so will I.

[PublicRadioVet]

19. Painting with too broad a brush

The problem is that lots of folks at DU will see a thread like this and, having no practical experience with the military or military personnel, just assume that we're all a bunch of Oliver Stone style derranged sociopaths bent on slaughter. Like the article from the NYT says, we're tired of being portrayed as either victims or fuckers.

[Philosoraptor]

20. Then tell us please, the proper way to portray soldiers.

So then we'll never offend you again.

[noamnety]

21. the word "human" comes to mind.

The best of them are kids who are struggling to hang on to their humanity in the most inhuman of circumstances, with inadequate training, inadequate leadership, inadequate upbringing in a society that devalues the qualities in men that we most want them to have - as humans. The best of the ones who have lost their humanity are now struggling to regain it.

[Critters2]

23. I'll save my sympathy for their victims eom

[Critters2]

22. People who kill women and children in their own homes are

deranged sociopaths. And should spend the rest of their lives in prison. Period.

[Skittles]

44. along with the lying, warmongering chickenhawk bastards who sent them

yup

[celtdem]

26. Wow! What a load of self-serving swill!

[Mr_Spock]

28. Nice RW warrior perspective there - UGGH!!

That is the most RW shill piece I have ever seen on DU!

:puke:

"warrior class"?? - like there is a special breed for this sort of mindless violence.

Let's just ignore the 20% of soldiers who are suffering mental illness due to PTSD. Can you really ignore the dead woman and children & just write them off as just "casualties" in some grand war scheme where we must destroy the middle east to prove what?

If you believe that tripe, then you are part of the "non-reality" crew that we fight here on a daily basis. I'm sickened to see this perspective here.

[WinkyDink]

24. I am heartened only by knowing Bush and Cheney are mortal.

[Philosoraptor]

25. I sure hope there's a hell.

I'm sure if there were, these boys would have their own little corner.

[Disturbed]

31. The Military tried to cover this up just as they tried with

Abu Grahib. The troops took photos, again. It seems that they were proud of their deeds. Now the Military investigates itself, again. A few bad apples will be tried and the story goes away, again.

[Philosoraptor]

32. Soldiers go to prison, Politicians go to banquets & make speeches

For BIG bucks.

[Rex]

29. And Bush has the GALL to look under tables at $1000 fundraisers.

"Nope nothing under here." Bush would lampoon as rich people laughed and clapped. "No, no WMD behind the table." Polite laughter and applause.

Now you tell me if Bush is a human being. If the people in the room with Bush are. Anyone in our government? I DARE them to go talk to this young marine. Ask him if he saw any WMD while carrying that dead child. Why the fuck are we there?

I'm so fucking pissed. :mad:

[Philosoraptor]

30. Yeah, Mr. Comedy.

I bet Adolph made a lot of similar cracks at parties.

[otherlander]

33. Good job supporting our troops, Bush.

Good fucking job. Another broken generation. What the hell are we supposed to be supporting?

I don't know what to think. On the one hand, 'just following orders' is no excuse. But on the other hand, these people have been fearing for their lives every single day, getting pumped full of war-hawking propaganda, have no clue where the enemy is, have insufficient body armor, have a gun, and want to live. You see them coming back with PTSD, committing suicide, and realize that as people, they have been devastated, changed by the things they've lived through. In a condition like this, would any of us have it together enough to be able to act any differently? And yet I can't imagine having the audacity to look an Iraqi survivor in the eyes, listen to their story, and expect them to forgive what was done to them and their loved ones.

[uppityperson]

36. Tragic. Just tragic.

[Rocknrule]

37. What? War doesn't turn kids into psychotic monsters

Only violent videogames do that!
:sarcasm:

[No Exit]

41. "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness..."

Allen Ginsberg was talking about something else besides war, BUT... give it a few years... if we ever actually get them out of Iraq/Iran/Wherever-the-maniac-sends-them-next, we will indeed see some of these young minds back here, and they will indeed be "dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix." And those will be the lucky ones...