Fahrenheit 911-and-a-half: Moore documentary sequel to be released in 2007

[Barad Simith]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0433561

From Internet Movie Database:

In the wake of the 2004 United States Presidential election, Michael Moore continues to examine what happened to the United States after September 11, and how the Bush Administration allegedly used the tragic event to push forward its agenda for unjust wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[dipsydoodle]

1. I like the cast credits

George W. Bush.....himself
Michael Moore......himself

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Barad Simith]

3. Why would you be banned?

It's not a DU requirement that everyone approve of Michael Moore or his documentaries.

[PublicRadioVet]

5. I was being facetious

Mostly because Moore has a die-hard segment of fans here at DU.

:)

[Barad Simith]

8. I bleeve you might mean Bruce Willis

:hi:

[PublicRadioVet]

10. Yippee Ka-YAY!

:)

[Kingshakabobo]

151. Use the search function. You have a star. n/t

[Barad Simith]

202. I know, but I was hoping he would say it himself (nt)

[Kingshakabobo]

203. Hehe. n/t

[Starbucks Anarchist]

4. In fairness, has Moore ever called the other side "traitors"?

Ann Coulter has, among many others.

[PublicRadioVet]

9. I don't recall if he ever used that particular word

But when, following the 2004 election, he put up the now-infamous "Jesusland" map on his web site, I think that's an equivalent insult. Moore to me seems like MP Galloway: a pot-shot taker who exploits anger at Bush and anger at American involvement in Iraq for his own selfish motives. He seems a vainglorious man who is not as interested in furthering the goals of The Cause as much as he is in hitching on for the ride, and riding it to as much fame and money as he can get. I remember seeing an interview with the kids Moore hooked up with for Bowling for Columbine, and how they said they felt like Moore had ripped them off and used them, and I think this is indicative of the kind of person that Moore is. The guy is a cheap carnival barker, garish and loud and gaudy and he sullies whatever he touches.

Of course, this is simply my opinion.

[Yollam]

40. I don't think you're very familiar with his work.

And "Jesusland" is not an insult, it's an apt description for the south, where nutball, fire-and-brimstone religion and frenzied nationalism win out over common sense and logic ALWAYS. I'm from the South, so don't tell me it's not true. How the hell are people who believe in things like science and reason supposed to REACH people who have decided to reject it outright in favor of snake-handlers and speaking in tongues?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

52. The "Jesusland" map was not created by Moore.

It ended up on numerous websites, though, not just his.

But I respect your opinion and won't call you childish names like some other people already have. BTW, I apologize for that. It's simply uncalled for.

[tkmorris]

6. LOL of course you are

You believe that Michael Moore is a liberal version of Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh. That is an amazing statement to me. Look, you don't care for Moore's approach, well that's fine, but to equate him to those two is about as silly as you can get.

Then again, I've read several of your posts. I'm not surprised by this one.

[PublicRadioVet]

12. I am glad I am consistent, then

Yeah, I think Moore is a rough equivalent to Limbaugh or Coulter, in that he is a media personality who exploits the cultural divide for popularity and monetary gain. If one half of the nation stopped hating the other, and vice versa, Coulter, Limbaugh, and Moore would all suddenly find themselves out of work. Ultimately, whenever I try to point out to a Righty that Coulter or Limbaugh (or half a dozen others) are dividers and doing damage to the national psyche, they simply point to Moore and say, well what the fuck is that asshole doing? I'm hard pressed to see where they are wrong.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

22. Is it a difference

that Moore doesn't spread blatant lies the way Coulter & Limbaugh do? Opportunistic, perhaps... but is he at least honest?

[PublicRadioVet]

36. A lot of BfC has been debunked

And not just by the reich-wing.

So no, I would not call Moore honest.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

106. By whom?

n/t

[Tesha]

178. By whom? Gun nuts everywhere, usingtheir usual standards of "truth". (NT)

[FuzzyDicePHL]

187. I was giving

PRV an opportunity to supply real information instead of straw man arguments... But your post, Tesha, just about sums it up. ;)

[Tesha]

189. (Well, don't let me stop any other replies! ;-) ) (NT)

[FuzzyDicePHL]

190. LOL!

I don't think you're stopping that particular reply... I think it must be a lack of a real answer, actually.

(Not to say some of Moore's info from "Bowling" hasn't been debunked; I just want to know what, specifically, PRV is talking about...)

[Cha]

115. Name one thing..with

bush as the star that wasn't fair in F9/11?

[gaspee]

59. Roger and me

I saw this movie when it first came out and I formed my opinion of Moore then. He is a regular guy who saw what we all see, the uinfairness of the oligarchy, the way most of us are serfs; then he got angry enough to do something about it.

I happen to love Michael Moore and I don't think he's a media whore even a little bit. He's a man outraged by the world.

And to compare him to Ann Coulter or Limbaugh? Not even close. You can't possible be serious?

I agree with Moore on most subjects. And Bowling for Columbine was a great movie.

I think people who don't like Moore don't like the mirror his documentaries force us all to look in.

[PublicRadioVet]

75. Yeah, and he is getting rich!

"I happen to love Michael Moore and I don't think he's a media whore even a little bit. He's a man outraged by the world."

And he is cashing in.

[Cha]

111. Yeah, and he puts his

money into making more docs so the country has a chance at learning the truth..don't be so jealous of Michael's money.

[newspeak]

169. so, he's making money

and makes great documentary films--In Bowling for Columbine, the one thing that opened my eyes is that our nation, perpetrated by the media, is a nation of distrust and fear. That we are publicly bombarded with it--sensationalized news, spin, propaganda. And the fear and distrust just causes even more violence. In F9/11, I already had seen some of the footage from other sources, so knew some of what Michael was attempting to inform the public. He is not a liar or half truth teller using ad hominem attacks and flawed logic statements like O'Reilly, Coulter and Limbaugh make. To say such a thing is absolutely ridiculous.

[Cha]

197. It opened my eyes

too..I put off seeing Bowling for Columbine for so long because the subject was so devastating for me. When I finally saw it enough time had elapsed and I was really glad I did.

[TabulaRasa]

160. Name one other celebrity that

gives half of what he makes to charity. Hell, name one other person. But I suspect you and I have such different goals and motives, that communication is more or less useless. You're primary goal seems to be "bringing the country together", and "compromise". My goal is eliminating injustice, not making friends with people whose goal is just the opposite. Though, I should add that I didn't much care for Bowling for Columbine. F911, on the other hand, was a masterpiece, IMO.

[kestrel91316]

168. I betcha you think it's fine for RWers to get rich, but liberals aren't

allowed to?

[uppityperson]

201. No need to answer this TOMBSTONED poster. that helps.

[dysfunctional press]

150. what lies have told/propagated by Moore...?

i'll agree that i'm kind of put off by his approach at times- like showing up unnanounced at a corporate headquarters with a camera crew, and then being shocked and outraged that the ceo can't drop everything for an immediate interview...
BUT- unlike the Limbaugh and/or Coulter, i've never known Moore to continually rant on with blatant un-truths- perhaps you can enlighten us all to some of the strings of whoppers that Michael Moore rants on with...? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..?

[me b zola]

179. I'll give you that. You are consistent

:eyes:

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PublicRadioVet]

13. See? I knew the "fans" would not like it!

If Moore is active locally, then good for him.

My gripe is with his pressence nationally, as a media figure.

Reich-wing? Come on.

Or is it now required that I approve of Moore, lest someone take away my liberal card?

:yoiks:

[JNelson6563]

28. Yes, I'm a mindless "fan", ignore me

And yeah, it's a reich-wing talking point that Moore's movies are dividing us. He merely shines a light on how the Rethugs have divided us.

I commend you for your attempt at categorizing me as a "fan" which would of course relegate my comments to the "not worth consideration" category. I wasn't just filling you in on his local good works, I wanted to share the common theme of his message. Here's a hint: It ain't dividing us, it's helping each other and being an asset to the community as a group.

That divisive, no good, America hating bastard. :eyes:

Julie

[PublicRadioVet]

42. I know die-hard libs who think Moore goes too far

So it's not like I am pulling this out of my ass.

As long as Moore is doing shit like the "Jesusland" map or demonizing private gun owners, no, he is not a "bridge builder" in my book.

As long as we as liberals in America blind ourselves to the damage we do out of anger and hate and mistrust, we are in danger of becoming that which we claim to dislike. The onus is on us to not stoop the same level as the ideological thugs. Every time we do, we just lend credence to their claim that we're not any better than they are; even though we act like we are.

[JNelson6563]

98. Ah yes, that's worked so well so far

The human doormat plan has been a wild success, why change now?

:sarcasm:

[Goblinmonger]

174. Oh, yes, for god's sake

we need to keep that powder dry so when something really shitty is about to happen, like a complete asshole that looks like satan himself is appoint to the SCOTUS, then we, as democrats, will have the political clout to stop that from happening.

Oh, wait....

[Cha]

113. You are so

brilliant.

[newspeak]

170. well, so you have a problem with him making money

but did you ever think that he also puts his life on the line for telling the truth? That there is enough wingnuts out there, he probably gets threats all the time? Now if he would just play the game like Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, then he could make money and spread the propaganda for the junta. He'd be safe, right? RIGHT? If you even think he does this just for the money, then he could make plenty of money working for the junta and be safe.

[lakeguy]

15. moore is hardly a liberal version of coulter or limbaugh...

he's not perfect, just like the rest of us, but he does not spew hate like those you compare him to. i actually can't think of a liberal version of those two haters.

incidentally, i gave a copy of 911 to one of my right wing uncles (who listens to rush) before the 04 election. he was shocked and wanted to know why kerry wasn't using some of it during the campaign.

[PublicRadioVet]

17. Sorry, I think he does spew hate

Bowling for Columbine made me ill. The man character-assasinated gun owners, to say nothing of his cheap ambush of Charlton Heston. I suppose the "Jesusland" map was all love and cuddles?

[BooScout]

18. Sometimes the truth hurts.....

And sometimes people refuse to see the truth.

[PublicRadioVet]

23. ...and the truth is that Moore is a carnival-barking embarrassment!

Straight up.

[BooScout]

24. That's your opinion....

You are entitled to it. I'm entitled to think you don't get it. You probably never will. That's sad.

[PublicRadioVet]

58. Yes it is. And I stand by it.

I think it's sad that lots of people are prepared to believe anything and everything Moore tells them, either because it flatters their own conceptions or because they are infatuated with Moore as this heroic Bush-slayer.

[charlie]

82. Anything and everything

Yes, that's what we do. If he printed his grocery list, I'd change my shopping to match. Because I'm infatuated and he flatters me. Nail. On. The. Head. Have a cigar!

You're hopeless.

[PublicRadioVet]

86. Thanks 4 being my pet hater! (eom)

See you on the other threads.

out.

[charlie]

90. Hey

I keeed because I loooove. I don't hate. Not ever.

Your Pet,

Cute Fluffy Charlie

[KansDem]

167. Actually, Moore is a member of the NRA

AC: You used your membership of the National Rifle Association to get that interview with Charlton Heston which is the finale of the film. And people were surprised that you are still in the NRA.

MM: I was a junior member when I was in the boy scouts when I was a kid, but I became a lifetime member after the Columbine massacre because my first thought after Columbine was to run against Charlton Heston for the presidency of the NRA. You have to be a lifetime member to be able to do that, so I had to pay $750 (about £450) to join. My plan was to get 5m Americans to join for the lowest basic membership and vote for me so that I'd win and dismantle the organisation. Unfortunately, I figured that's just too much work for me so instead I made this movie. But I'm still a lifetime member, until they excommunicate me... which is not far off, from what I hear.

AC: The Heston interview is, for some, somewhat contentious. For those who haven't seen the film, he invites Michael into his home to be interviewed, and some people have found that interview to be uncomfortable. He certainly did. Some have said that he seems to be senile or in some way not to be completely in control of his mental faculties and that you run rings around him. I didn't see it that way because this is the guy who appears in public straight after shootings and says, "We should all have rifles" and "To take my gun away from me, you'd have to prise it from out of my cold, dead hand". Do you see why some people are uncomfortable? Just talk about that interview you did with him.

MM: Well, I've read that in some American reviews of it. They feel sorry for him, he's an old man. Just before the film was released in America, he went on TV and announced that he had been told that he had Alzheimer-like symptoms. He doesn't have Alzheimer's but he might get it. And then he went out on the campaign trail for two or three weeks, 12 to 15 cities, campaigning for Senate and House candidates to make sure that Bush had control of the House and Senate. And he's in pre-production on his next movie. God I hope he doesn't get any bad diseases, I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I hope he lives a long life. I feel that the argument on my side of the fence is strong enough that I don't need him to be weakened by any disease. But I think they're very afraid of this film - they've been afraid of it since Cannes and they've been trying to figure out how to control it. Because it's not a gun control movie - this is a movie which says that something is more seriously and deeply wrong with the USA and our gun problem is a symptom of the larger illness that exists. Charlton Heston said in this interview with me, with no prompting from me, that the problem with America is "our mixed ethnicity". I'd asked a question about why Canadians don't have as many gun murders as we do and he said he was very proud that our country had been invented by those wise and dead white guys. And he kept making these kind of racial comments, but then he'd back off from them when I repeated the question to him. People were very afraid as to how that was going to come across. I don't know why anybody would feel sorry for a guy who leads the most powerful lobby group in the US and whose sole purpose is to make sure that people can have as many guns as they want to have and fire as many bullets as the guns can possibly fire. These people are insane and they have to be stopped. And the majority of Americans, according to every poll, want gun control. This group succeeds with a minority position and I think it's time to hear from the other side; time for the other side to not be afraid to stand up for what they believe in and until we correct the mental problem, we have to put the guns away. So I do believe in gun control - guns have to be put aside until we can act more Canadian-like.

http://film.guardian.co.uk/interview/interviewpages/0,,841083,00.html

Of course, he had a specific reason to become a "life member..."

[Kahuna]

20. No. Michael Moore is not a liberal version of Coulter and Limbaugh.

F911 is based upon facts gleened from national M$M news accounts. Most of us on DU, were aware of his sources before the movie was released because we had followed the same M$S news items. Also, while a lot of people may have been skeptical about how Michael Moore portrayed bush in F911, I think after Katrina, Moore has been vindicated. After Katrina, people saw that guy that Moore showed them in F911. So, F911 has been very useful in exposing bushco. I can't wait for 9 1/2, because I'm sure that it will be the final nail on bush's coffin.

[PublicRadioVet]

26. It will also be preaching to the choir

Which is, again, something Limbaugh and Coulter are good at. They don't try to change minds or reach across divides. They openly detest the Other and get rich off mocking people they believe are stupid and dangerous. Moore does exactly the same, only he is the political inverse of Coulter and Limbaugh. If you folks can't see this, then I can't help you, as you are the cash-paying choir that Moore relies on to see his films and keep him in business.

[calmblueocean]

31. You're wrong, here.

Only right wingers buy Limbaugh's and Coulter's books. Mainstream America goes to see Michael Moore's movies.

[PublicRadioVet]

33. "Mainstream America"?

I'm a liberal who lives and works in a liberal city in a liberal state.

I know very few people who saw F911 in the theaters. Even the most rabid of the Bush haters. Mostly because many of them thought BfC cheap and shoddy. Not a "documentary" at all, thus they had no interest in F911.

[calmblueocean]

39. And I know tons of people who did.

We even talked about it afterward. Face it, you don't get to make a $120 million domestic box office documentary off of just a few liberals going to see your movie. If that was true, Robert Greenwald (the guy who made "Outfoxed") would be a zillionaire by now.

Face it, mainstream America is engaged with Moore in a way they aren't with Coulter and Limbaugh. Sometimes when you're wrong, the best thing you can do is admit it and move on. :)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

43. And I'm a liberal living in a very red section of a red state

F 911 played here, and opened a lot of folks' eyes as to what is going on. I had clerks in stores stop and talk to me about it, asking my opinion and strongly voicing theirs-how they now hated Bush and what he had done. When I went to buy my copy of the DVD at Blockbusters, the anti-MM DVD was in the remainder bin and they were taking names of people who wanted to get F911.

[Shakespeare]

162. HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

HOOOHOOOHOOO hahahahah HEEHEEHEEHEE!!!

:rofl:

Methinks you should do a little research on box office numbers and audience demographics for F911.

[newspeak]

171. you know, I'm starting to smell shite

I lived in a very conservative area-the theater owned by a conglomerate refused to air F9/11-there were large lines to see it in Vegas. I know across the country, there were long lines waiting to see the film. And then there's McCain's statement that F9/11 were full of fabrications-he was asked if he viewed it and his answer was NO. So was he doing the "cover our asses spin?" Repeat, repeat, repeat until the masses, with their blank hypnotic stare repeat "F9/11 IS A LIE, F9/11 IS A LIE" because the MSM and the talking heads told me so. No, I'm not going to see that movie because it's all lies about our glorious leader. But, people stood in large lines to see it, sometimes, coming back two and three times.

[Goblinmonger]

175. So again,

though not from me, what EXACTLY was factually wrong and officially "debunked" in BfC? I must have missed that post of yours.

[CatWoman]

195. I live in Atlanta

and I went to see it at a little theater not far from my job - located in the heart of Bush/moron country. I left work early one Friday to go see it.

I was amazed - the theater was packed.

There was crying and tears on both sides of me.

At the end, the audience stood and gave a standing ovation.

Take your bullshit and try it on someone else.

[agincourt]

199. 100 some million gross

Many people see his stuff, whether a freeper would get it is another thing. That's why stuff like V for Vendetta and Good Night and Good Luck are probably more effective in red states. Unless the radio pigs program the sheeple not to go see that stuff.

[NRaleighLiberal]

21. Pressence, hey?

There is a job for you as spelling coach for the other side. If you can't handle MMore and F911 and Columbine, you can't handle the truth! Great movies for true patriots.

[ixion]

30. yeah, you're right... better to roll over on our bellies and hope the

repukes are feelin' playful, right? :sarcasm:


I guess all I'm saying is that I see Moore as one of the few people who fight back, rather than try and play softball with a group who'd just as soon see every progressive exiled. I don't approve of his bad journalism either, but he's one of the few progressives with the guts to say what others are thinking.

Just my two cents.

[Yollam]

38. How is he divisive? What untruths has he told?

I think he's a great guy. The only way he is divisive is in that he divides up America into those that love the country and those that love Bush. It's not up to me to ban you, but if you think Moore is so out there, what are you doing here? I consider myself to be much more critical of Bushco than Moore has ever been, and I think an awful lot of us here are the same.


Have you even seen Fahrenheit 9-11? Moore is a filmmaker. What would you have him do in the wake of the greatest deliberate failure in our nation's defense ever, followed by a propaganda war against the people, then a massive con job to start a war, WHAT THE HELL WAS MOOR SUPPOSED TO DO?

Bush is the divisive one, not Moore.

[CJCRANE]

54. Moore is mawkish and sentimental

and uses passive-aggressive tactics on his interviewees (e.g. Charlton Heston in 'Bowling for Columbine').

However, despite all that, he does make some good points, particularly in F9/11.

[earth mom]

80. You might get banned for not liking Moore...?

Well, I don't know about that but have to wonder why any liberal would NOT like Moore since he is one on the very few people who have been brave enough to stand up to the EVIL Bush Co and proven they are LYING ABOUT EVERYTHING. What's NOT to like about that?! :wtf:

As for Moore being like Limbaugh or Coulter-how ridiculous.

For the simple fact that:

Speaking THE TRUTH IS NOT VILE OR UGLY.

WHAT IS VILE are THE LIES reTHUGS LIKE Limbaugh & Coulter SPEW. :puke:

[Cha]

107. Oh YEAH, Real Tiresome to

hear the truth from Michael Moore. Damn that Micheal Moore getting the truth out the only way he can because our Fucking Fascist mediawhores won't let the Dems talk!!@

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[derby378]

117. Unlike Limbaugh or Coulter, Moore actually does his homework

That said, is he right 100% of the time? Of course not - nobody is. Is F9/11 better described as a documentary or a polemic? Depends on who you ask. There is a certain amount of conjecture, but many of the images presented in the movie are beyond question.

I think the kid's alright.

[Toots]

136. The truth really pisses you off doesn't it?

What did you see in either Bowling for Columbine or Farenheit 9-11 that you felt was not the truth?

[1932]

139. I think I used to listen to a public radio station you worked at.

[peacebaby3]

146. Wow. He went after Clinton when he was in office as well. He has said some

really negative things in the past about the Democratic Party and still says a lot even today - even though he has started to support them because the reps. have become so horrible. Is he a liberal? Absolutely, but so am I. I have never heard Moore call for killing people like Coulter or get his jollies from torture like Limbaugh so the comparison is way off the mark, IMHO.

I recently watched a documentary called "This Divided State" that a student (he quit to make the doc) at BYU made when the student government at Utah Valley State College asked MM to come and speak during the 2004 campaign. Some students and members of the community didn't like that MM was coming so they caused a big uproar over it. The student government also agreed for Sean Hannity to come and speak. I would like for you to watch it and come back and let me know what you think about the differences between the MM speech at the school and the Sean Hannity speech. I'd also like for you to tell me your thoughts on some of the students and members of the community. It's available for rental through Netflix if you happen to use their service. Here's a link to the Doc site:

<http://www.thisdividedstate.com/>

Oh and on an interesting note: MM is attacked by Nader supporters in the Doc as well. Ironic since he is such a leftist, don't you think?

I am very surprised at your assessment of Bowling For Columbine. Most of the people that have attacked the movie are gun supporters, yet while MM does show some of the terrible things about the gun industry and the NRA, he actually doesn't blame people owning guns for the Columbine tragedy. He is even a member of the NRA and has been since he was young. He brings up several reasons why this country seems to be so violent when compared to some other countries that we are on par with economically, etc. He talks about how many Canadians leave their doors unlocked at all times and own guns but they don't have the same death rate from guns that we do. He mostly seems to point his dismay at the media and the government for their "fear" tactics. They whip society into such a frenzy over everything that we are living in fear all of the time. In the end, BFC doesn't place blame on anyone or any particular segment of society, it really lets the viewer take in all the information and come to their own conclusion. I actually was a hardcore anti-gun advocate before I saw this documentary, but it made me think outside the lines on the issue and I had to think more critically about my positions. I still think the NRA are scum of the earth because they don't want fair gun laws, they want no gun laws and whip people into a frenzy that Dems are going to take away their guns during every election, but I have also learned there are many other issues to think about as well. Oh, and he also goes directly after Bill Clinton and his administration in BFC as well.

I know you said that there were many inaccuracies in BFC. I've actually seen some things listed myself. One being that the crew and MM had to go to the bank the day before to tell them they would be opening a checking account so the branch manager could go get the gun to put in the safe. I can honestly say whether that was in there or not would have made no difference to me in my impression of the movie and the absurdity of a bank (I used to work in one about 10 years ago and have been through two armed robberies) handing out a gun to a person inside a bank. There was also the fact that when he talked about the NRA meeting near Columbine shortly after the shooting that he used footage from another NRA meeting when discussing the meeting. Again, I find this very minor since I have seen footage and transcripts from several NRA meetings and they are usually very similar in speech and tone. There probably was no footage from that meeting to use.

I've seen a few other things that people have said made MM "a liar" but since I can't remember could you please tell me what the other things are that made BFC so inaccurate and what makes MM so much like Coulter and Limbaugh?

Thank you very much.

[PaDem]

148. While I don't see him being as inflammatory as Coulter.......

and others, I tend to agree with you in general. When he stood up and did his "fictitious President" bit he marginalized himself. Tact maximizes effectiveness.

[Shakespeare]

161. Gee, I'm just shocked, shocked! that you'd feel that way.

:eyes:

[debbierlus]

164. How did Moore exploit and divide the nation?

Moore is NOTHING like Coulter or Limbaugh. Did you even see 9/11?

I think that is a grossly unfair comparison.

We need MORE Micheal Moores not less.

You sound like a right wing mouthpiece. They always bash the man but never seem to discuss the content of what he produces.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

194. Heh

I guess he was banned.

hey freepers...If you know your gonna get banned for saying it..its proably best not to say it.

hehe

[katinmn]

11. Michael Moore has been speaking truth to power on a national

stage since Roger & ME.

MM was major force before the 04 election. He rallied us, he challenged them. F 911, while using humor and emotion along with a new way of looking at things, woke a lot of people up. He took the wrath of the right wing and keeps on going.

Michael, Cindy Sheehan and Al Franken will go down in history as individuals who engaged masses of people when no one else could or dared to. (People complain about Al from time to time - not left enough, show isn't funny enough - but he conceived and delivered Air America which gave us, finally, an alternative voice that represented our values. In some places Air America is the only liberal media voice for miles around.)

Thank God for these people.:patriot:

[Swamp Rat]

14. Way'at katinmn!!

:hi: Not only is Moore brilliant, he is a true American patriot! :patriot:

Now, let's sit back and watch the freeptard trolls post their anti-Moore diatribes and inane comparisons to Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh. :eyes:



:popcorn:

[katinmn]

27. Yes, Swamp Rat! MM's message is freedom and tolerance

The Reich-Wing bastards preach hatred and fear. Big F-'n difference, isn't it?

Make room on the freeptard troll observation deck. :popcorn: :popcorn:

[PublicRadioVet]

29. I have to disagree

MM doesn't tolerate gun owners any more than he tolerates Christians; both of whom he has notoriously slammed. Or was I the only liberal who thought BfC and the "Jesusland" map were out of line and inflammatory?

[katinmn]

32. LOL. The Jesusland map is how the entire world sees us after 04.

A journalist friend in Sweden sent me the "Jesusland" map right after the election. It traveled the world.

MM didn't create the map but hats off to the creative genius who did. :)

[PublicRadioVet]

34. Whether he created it or not is not the point!

It's that he posted it and supported the mocking message attached to it.

(sigh) I guess I *AM* the only liberal here who thought BfC and the map were inflammatory and uncalled for.

Okay, have your thread back. I have said my peace.

[Yollam]

44. Here's the map.

It's mildly amusing. A lot of us wanted to join Canada, since it's still a democracy with some moorings in reality, and even has decent health care!



The repukes were claiming that the election was due to the turnout of their mouth-breathing, foaming, glassy-eyed, gay-hating, deranged fundamentalist followers, so the map was appropriate.

[PublicRadioVet]

47. Sorry, I've got friends and family in "Jesusland"

I am also a Christian by belief.

There was little to ammuse me, where this map is concerned.

I'm also not infatuated with Canada, living so close to it as I do, and getting to listen to the visitors from B.C. complain about their country in much the same way we complain about ours. The issues might be different, but the sentiment is the same: the grass is always greener.

[Yollam]

61. I do too, and a lot of them are as I described.

It is not a rational mindset. Maybe you believe in coddling and humoring people that behave in a deranged way. I do not. You and your relatives are welcome to your church, but please keep it to yourselves and stop insisting that everybody else observe your church's interpretation of the Bible, or the bible at all for that matter.




I've known more people like this in the south than I care to remember. I'm deeply grateful that my parents finally moved me to West Texas, which is significantly less insane and Southern, and I only had to see those people at the holidays after that. I know there are rational people in the south too, and that some of the fundies can be kind in their own way, but they are still NUTS and are destroying this country.

[Generic Other]

114. Why not just say it you hate MM for offending your Xtian gun nut beliefs

Not all liberals think armed xtians equal good thing.

The map should have been called Armed Jesusland to be more accurate.

[Cha]

132. That's what I'm

getting out this..this paradox of armed Christians. Not what Jesus had in mind from what I've read.

[peacebaby3]

152. I actually live in "Jesusland" and I don't really have a problem with the

map. It might offend some people, but in some ways it's very true. The right uses religion to divide us and much of the country fell for it. This map was created right after the election when most voters claimed "moral values" as the reason for their vote. When I speak to Bush* supporters here in my southern, red state and ask them why they support him, 9 out of 10 say it's because he is a "godly man." I then ask them which of his policies has shown he is a "godly man" and most of them don't even know his platform or polices, but he says he's a Christian so that's good enough for them. I then ask them if that is the case why would they have not been just as much for Kerry since he was a Christian and said so publicly? Most of them just give me blank looks and then come up with something like he supports gays or he's a Democrat so he can't be a real Christian. You are dealing with that mentality quite often and it is a losing argument because they have no grasp of logic. I then ask them if they don't really believe I am a Christian then since I abhor GWB and don't believe anything he does is Christian? They get that sheepish look on their face and then in a very fake tone say, "Of course not", but you can hear all you need to know in their tone and see it in their facial expressions.

[CanSocDem]

85. The point....

...is that your country is in big trouble and Michael Moore seems to be the only one who has noticed.

You've allowed your corporations to move your jobs to another country; you've allowed the gun culture to pretty much eliminate any pretense of personal safety with the widespread distribution of firearms, you may have lost the ability to run an honest election, you've allowed the MSM to become a lapdog of the government and allowed the pharmaceutical industry to take control of your health system.

I believe the last one is Moore's next project.....

You are up to your ears in doo-doo. And I know you don't want to hear this from an 'unarmed' Canadian but making gun owners look bad is the least of your worries.

It is time you gave the radicals their time at the podium.

[MelissaB]

109. Evidently you didn't see his speech CSPAN televised.

MM is a Christian...

[Swamp Rat]

37. Not only that, but they go out of their way to post on 'librul' websites.

Their mission to try to cause dissention, but they also disrupt by setting up red herrings and strawman arguments. Some are more clever than others, posing as 'liberals' while subtly posting rw talking points... the kind we have analysed and studied over the last few years on a DAILY basis... Man, this is getting old! :eyes:



I just wish those chicken shit freeptards would put their money where their mouth is: sign up or re-up for active combat duty in Iraq.

[PublicRadioVet]

45. Are you here to take away my liberal card, Swampy?

Can't have a difference of opinion on someone like Moore, now, can we?

That would be very "freeper" of me, I guess, if I thought Moore was anything less than a hero.

:wtf:

[Swamp Rat]

49. Congratulations!! You know how to build logical fallacies quite easily.

:applause: :party:

[charlie]

53. And any difference of opinion with you

is due to the liberal hivemind, innit? Lefties hate America, love Saddam, white liberal kids hate work, protests hurt the soldiers, lefties hate soldiers, Kerry is indistinguishable from Jane Fonda, here's what Chris Hitchens has to say and he's no Bush lover no sirree, here's what my rightwing friends at this website have to say about Fred Phelps, and everyone to my left is mindless, ineffective, self-defeating, and everything anyone to my left does is mindless, ineffective, self-defeating, and I might get banned for saying this but, I might get banned for saying this but, I might get banned for saying this but...

[PublicRadioVet]

65. Yes, I might get banned for saying this!

Because being a LIBERAL isn't about just sitting around and agreeing with everyone and patting them on the back all the time.

Like Hitchens, I have become very upset with a lot of what passes for "liberalism" these days. If I feel like calling bullshit, I call it.

But don't let that stop you from cramming words in my mouth because you (obviously) dislike some of what I say. We liberals do ourselves no favors when we replicate the "hivemind" we claim to detest. Simply calling Righties evil nutjobs doesn't make them go away, or automatically make us the winners in the argument. We must examine carefully WHY we think the way we do, and more importantly, HOW we might actually be hurting ourselves by carrying on with the same behavior we always claim we hate in the Other Side.

[hlthe2b]

69. PRV

YOu might actually be the liberal that you proclaim. Like most here, I'm trying to give benefit of the doubt. But it isn't just your issue with MM. You are systematically repeating nearly all the RW talking points--comparing MM to Limbaugh, Coulter, the RW hatemonsters, horrendous comments about Sheehan, even implying her entire family has disowned her (not true), etc., etc., etc.

Is it any wonder people might question your intentions? You are not being subtle...:shrug:

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hootinholler]

141. Oh, Swampy

That's my new Favorite Swamp Rat original.

Hoping things are settled down to a dull roar for ya, and pinch a few tails fer me.

Carry on.
-Hoot

[Swamp Rat]

142. Way'at hootinholler!

:hi: You know what, that gives me a great idea! :9



I know what I am having for dinner today! ;)

[hootinholler]

144. OH man! dat tease me...

I'm in Md. Now where am I gonna get some fresh mud bugs? I might be able to find me some zatarans, but the mud bugs ain't gonna happen.

lezze bon temps roulez

-Hoot

[Swamp Rat]

191. Why was this message deleted??? - this guy was a troll

NONE of my posts in this thread should have been deleted.

After all, I ALERTED ON THIS THREAD 3 TIMES SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING, yet the troll was allowed to stay long enough to disrupt.

The post above was deleted after he left and then he was banned.

So, why did you waste time and effort deleting my post?

edit: Here was my original post:

"Hive mind???

:rofl: Then stop saying "we liberals" because I do not consider you a member of our "liberal hive." :rofl:



Stay long enough, though, and you will be assimilated!" :rofl:
______________

Yes I keep tabs on Mods too, saving info to my HD.

[charlie]

198. It's that lizard pic

Every time it scrolls up on my screen I'm like, Gaaaaahhh!! *SWAT*SWAT*SWAT*... Fortunately, I don't have a delete button :D

[charlie]

76. Cramming words into your mouth

Ha. Which words do you disown? That's recap of your blather since you arrived. Lefties are lockstep, DU is a hivemind, but hey, careful about broadbrushing folks to "our" right, that would be self-defeating and foolish. And I might get banned for being a freethinking rebel... did I mention I might get banned? I might, you know.

[Swamp Rat]

84. You might get banned for being a freethinking rebel charlie

:D

"Lefties are lockstep, DU is a hivemind, but hey, careful about broadbrushing folks to "our" right," - A common tactic. :eyes:

Funny how some "freethinking rebels" go post on other websites that they were banned here claiming we have a hive mentality, suppress freedom of speech, etc.

[charlie]

92. Ban me!

I'm too sharp, too sexy for DU. Been a proud member of the Brotherhood of Lockstep Freethinkers since 911.

[Goblinmonger]

176. I'm too sexy for DU, too sexy it hurts

I actually loved that song.

[charlie]

177. It had a bizarre charm

Though if I hadn't seen the video, I expect it would've annoyed the daylights out of me. Watching that lumpen meatlocker bassist trying to stomp in time to the music made it a classic.

[Cha]

130. Oh no, now you're comparing

yourself to that fucking ignoramous traitor cris hitchens.

You can disagree all you want but you're gonna get disagreements right back at cha.

[EricWhitaker]

154. You keep saying

"we liberals"

That sounds real suspect. The need to continue to reinforce that??

[ProfessorGAC]

157. Are You Always This Tedious & Self-Congratulatory?

If so, it explains your love affair with Chris Hitchens. He's a pompous, undereducated twit bloated with self-importance. His opinions have the gravity of mosquito netting. Not that you could tell by listening to his jaded delivery and misplaced self-assurance.

You can call bullshit if you wish. I'm certainly not going to try to stop you. The problem seems to be, however, that you don't understand that it's not bullshit, just because you say so. Your opinion just doesn't carry that much weight.

And yet like your hero, Hitchens, that fact is beyond your grasp.
The Professor

[TheWatcher]

184. Yes, you did Get banned!

Mission Accomplished!

[gaspee]

66. And one way you can tell

Is how they go on and on and on about their liberal creds, then spout right wing talking points.

It's kind of like the phrase, "I don't mean to insult you, but...."

The disrupter likes to say. "Well I'm a card carrying liberal, but I think MM is a media whore!"

Insert your own phrase. And becareful of people always pointing out how liberal they are.

And it's not just the low numbers posters (like me.) If you don't think there's people on this board whose specific mission (whether assigned or taken up by themselves) is to disrupt and cause dissent, you're kidding yourself.

[Swamp Rat]

77. As I like to say in similar situations,

"anything after but is bull shit.

I have been studying THEM on a daily basis for 5 years. ;)

[PublicRadioVet]

89. It's true, I am on Rove's payroll!

You caught me!

:cry:

[Cha]

123. Seems clear to me..but

then my Liberals Friends thought F9/11 was da bomb!

[newspeak]

172. don't you realize, Moore is dividing the nation

We must be in lock-step and solidarity--see, if we all listened to the hallowed wisdom of Rush, Ann, Bill and Sean, we wouldn't be divided anymore. It's that damned Moore who's dividing us, doncha see?:sarcasm:

[PublicRadioVet]

16. I can respect Al Franken

If only because I thought "Stuart Saves His Family" was a total sleeper genius of a movie.

Al also, in theory, does not rely on hatred of the "reichwing" to supply him with his status as a celebrity. Should the nation magically go all-liberal tomorrow, Al would go back to comedy and an occasional bit of acting. Maybe even SNL.

Sheehan and Moore would be out of work. Period. Because with nobody left to hate and protest against, what would they do with themselves?

[NRaleighLiberal]

19. Delete - wrong place

Delete

[PublicRadioVet]

25. You might get your wish

As a liberal, I have discovered that nothing makes fellow liberals more angry than being a Doubting Thomas, where the sainthood of Moore and Sheehan are concerned.

We'll see how long DU allows me to dissent on this one. I think liberalism in America would be better served without Sheehan and Moore using the debates of the day to cash in. Neither of them is credible in my eyes. Not any longer.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

41. "Cash in"??????

I might not agree with everything Cindy Sheehan does, but I do believe it is her way of trying to get over the very earth-shattering fact that her son was killed before his time. Every family that has had this happen copes with it in a different way-and I can assure you that I personally know of mothers who NEVER got over the death of a child to their own dying day. To consider her actions merely as a way of "cashing in" implies that she is doing what she does simply for the money. I assume you are not a person who has ever lost a child, either in war, in an accident, or by disease, or you would not have said such a cynical thing.

[PublicRadioVet]

51. Cindy's family has pretty much disowned her

They consider her exploitation of Casey's death to be something they cannot and will not support.

Other mothers have lost sons. Only one has gone out of her way to stick her face in front of cameras and go on national and international tours and enjoy free lunch wherever and whenever it is offered. Her moment of true grief ended a long, long time ago. It's gotten ugly now, and embarrassing, and all I can think, as a guy who wears a uniform, is, "What would Casey make of all this?"

If I die in Iraq and my wife or mother goes off like Sheehan, I will be mortified.

Losing Casey does not shield her from legit criticism. Not in my book, and not especially after how she has left herself wide open to such criticism.

Much like Moore.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

57. Oh, that's why her daughter

was at Camp Casey with her, and her sister was there, too. So sure, her whole family has disowned her. :sarcasm:

You never answered my question-have you had a child or sibling die before their time?

If you haven't, you don't know what someone might do to get over their grief. You don't have to agree with their method, but to imply that they are doing what they are doing simply to get money/or fame shows a lack of empathy or understanding of what it is like to lose a child.

[PublicRadioVet]

67. If I lost my daughter

I would be beside myself with grief.

But as angry as I might get over her death, I'd feel like a sham if I went around the country or the world wrapping myself in her death rament and exploiting my status as a parent who has seen his or her child die. It's not like I'd be the only one.

Again, other mothers have seen their children die in Iraq.

Only one of them is now internationally famous as CINDY SHEEHAN.

I think it's gotten ugly, and I think she needs to quietly exit stage left, get on with the healing process, and stop exploiting Casey in ways I suspect Casey with not approve of.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

173. I know military families

who are silently grieving because they are afraid to speak out. At least Cindy does. Since you never answered my question, I assume you have NEVER had a child in your family die. I have. I understand what Cindy is doing. I might not always agree with what she is doing, but I understand. As to what Casey thinks-a rather lame argument, as you never knew him, and you wouldn't know.

[Binka]

64. You Are Not Worth My Time.... n/t

[charlie]

71. As a guy who wears a uniform...

Milking that cachet for all it's worth, aren't you? It took 911 to get you to join the reserves and now you're hardcore. You can speak with authority on soldiers' behalf in thread after thread. Of course Casey would be horrified by his mom, the free lunch maven, because you would be and you know, as only a soldier's soldier would.

[PublicRadioVet]

83. Are you my pet hater, Charles?

Yeah, it took 9/11 for me to join. Like a lot of other people I know. I say it with pride, not shame. Just like I wear my uniform with pride, and not shame.

And yes, there are some things only soldiers can really understand about other soldiers.

Why does this upset you, Charlie?

[charlie]

87. Ho!

Of course, I suggested that you should be ashamed to be in uniform. Loudly and often, right? NOT.

Ask me why I hate America. Or hate the troops. It's got about as much to do with me as your manufactured umbrage.

[Swamp Rat]

88. Now you have made your point clear: Michael Moore = Cindy Sheehan = ?

Fools, traitors?

What the fuck is your point PublicRadioVet?

... and... before you possibly get banned, as you have been saying, I want to ask:

WHY THE FUCK AREN'T YOU IN IRAQ RIGHT NOW?!?

Stop wasting your time here. You have more important business to attend to, like packing your gear SOLDIER! :eyes:

SUPPORT THE TROOPS AND GET YOUR ASS TO IRAQ NOW

[Options Remain]

46. the distinction is intent

Moore and Sheehan are protesting wrongs. Bringing visibility to things certain factions dont want discussed.

Limbaugh and Coulter are generating division. Reinforcing the us-vs-them environment.

Regardless of what we think of them or what credibility we assign them (MM and CS) we need their visibility on the national stage to educate and draw things that people are still in denial of into the light for all to see.

O.R.

[hlthe2b]

48. PRV, a question

I note that you refer continually to Bowling for Columbine, but never mention seeing Fahrenheit 911. Is it possible you never have?

[PublicRadioVet]

55. I watched maybe 20 minutes of F911

And then just turned it off. A waste of my time. I immediately knew there would be a hard-core audience for this kind of thing, but was about as impressed by F911 as I was by BfC. The guy is rich and famous because he knows how to play at political axe grinding. Maybe his message appeals to many liberals, but his tactics and his vainglorious nature make me dislike him very much. He is not a documentarian, he is just another political media mongerer.

[hlthe2b]

60. ummhmm

And, you still think this, knowing everything you (should) know now? F911 was very precient--almost a roadmap for all the disclosures coming daily. It really does seem to me that you would have watched Fahrenheit 911 before making such a blanket condemnation...:shrug:

[Yollam]

99. Since you barely watched 10% of the movie...

...what business do you have commenting on it, or Moore?

Have you seen "Roger & Me"? It's one of the best documentary films EVER, bar none, and illustrates what repugs and corporate America have done to the heartland of this country better than any film I've ever seen. Did you ever watch his TV show? It was progressive AND funny.

Maybe you're a gun nut or a Heston fan, so Columbine didn't set well with you and you've blown off all his stuff, could that be it?

And you're wrong about him, it's not about his ego - it's a mission of passion and anger that began with the willful destruction of his hometown, Flint, MI, by greedheads at GM. I do think there are times when he has lost his perspective and let things get to him a bit too much, but it is NOT a vanity trip with him.

[RandiFan1290]

68. I don't think he's seen either movie

if he did he would know that Michael Moore is a gun owner and a Christian.

[hlthe2b]

72. yes...

and a NRA member! That occurred to me as well.

[PublicRadioVet]

81. If Rush Limbaugh owned a "peace" t-shirt and smoked pot?

Would that make him any less of a conservative knucklehead?

I don't own any guns personally, but I thought Moore's character assasination of gun owners, and his ambush on Charlton Heston, were both uncalled for.

I also found F911 to be so loaded with conspiracy theory, it became impossible to take it seriously. So I turned it off and sent the movie back to Netflix.

[Swamp Rat]

96. Fallacy

Hmm, you are a soldier and you do not own a gun? :wtf:

I find that strange since every member of my family that served or is serving in the Military owns a gun (this includes all my friends too), though I suppose it is possible - just not likely.

[PublicRadioVet]

116. My wife doesn't want one in the house

Though it's not like I haven't tried to argue for us having one.

Plus, the gun I want (AR15) is damned expensive.

In the end, I gotta default to my wife. It's more important to me that she is comfortable in our home than that I get to have my bang-bang self defense toy.

[RandiFan1290]

166. While you enjoy your pizza

please remember that your boy Rush buys his drugs in my neighborhood.

[peacebaby3]

155. Yes, I question whether or not he's really seen BFC from his post.

Most of the things he said were not based on fact or what was in the doc. The funny thing about it is that the documentary actually made me ease off some of my very hardcore anti-gun sentiments so these people that bash the movie because it supposedly goes after personal gun owners have no clue what they are talking about and that is why I question whether he actually watched the entire documentary or just segments picked by people with an agenda.

I'm really pissed that he has been "tombstoned" because I would have liked a reply to my posts. I had tried to support him in some other threads, but I was worried that this would eventually happen.

Edit: typo

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

35. I don't know how Cindy Sheehan got caught up in the mix

Mourning the loss of her son and trying to make some meaning of his sacrifice is not a "job" she volunteered for, I assure you.

From reading your posts, I get the impression that what offends you most about Moore is his stance on gun ownership and at least one type of Christianity. Would this be correct?

[mntleo2]

50. Uhhh ~ Sheehan And Moore "Hate"???

I would never want to see you banned for what you have said and I am trying to be respectful here but...I think you are are looking in quite an extreme way at people who are standing on their principals as being "hateful" ~ and might I suggest perhaps you are buying a bit of FAUX rhetoric to refer Moore's humor and Sheehan's passion as "hate"? IMO, if anyone hates it is people who foment wars, steal from the indiginous and poor, creates racist societies, and murders for vengeance.

There is also the type of hate that is benign where say, living in opulence right next to dire poverty and dispair and turning a blind eye is also hate. Nobody could say Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore participate in any such thing as they speak out against those things and live their lives in a way that proves thier passion. They give to their communities in time and money and they speak for people who have no voice. The rich have plenty of voices and the money to buy them. Recently on NPR, I listened to Robert Rechter of the Heritage Foundation speak against poor mothers in this country without nary a word from the two female hosts who were interviewing him. Merely choosing Rechter, an elitist and Grover Nordquist hack, as some sort of "expert" on poverty (much less mothering) when he has no idea what poverty is, was an act of hate IMO, and worse, these two women remained silent and allowed no rebuttal. This is benign hate.

My point is that Moore uses humor and Sheehan uses her grief and passion to state their views, but it is not hate. They want to make this world better for a majority, not only for a few and themselves. I would say they are far more noble than low life greedheads such as rich white men and Heritage Foundation ilk who only care for the elite and themselves and have proven it with the crap they churn out. They have created policy and laws that not only causes greater misery and poverty, discounted children and families as being anything of value, made virtual slavery a part of this country's economics, worse they have capitalized from all of it. Now THAT is hate.

If you hear disgust for some in my writing here, it is because I am disgusted ~ but I do not harbor any desire to destroy these people, merely bring them to to the karma they have made for themselves. I feel this is the same for Moore, he does not want to destroy anyone, but perhaps like me, he is as angry and disgusted at what he sees. And I am glad he is there and could not agree more.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[Yollam]

63. You said it way better than I could. Thanks.

NT

[PublicRadioVet]

74. If not hate, then selfishness and vanity

Would Moore or Sheehan be such crusaders, if forced to crusade anonymously?

I seriously doubt it.

:(

[Heidi]

94. Self-delete.

[earth mom]

95. How can Moore & Sheehan promote change if they are anonymous?!

:wtf:

Dude, you are seriously lost. :rofl:

[PublicRadioVet]

101. The message ought to matter more than the messenger

Unless we are admitting that anti-Bushism or anti-war sentiment cannot stand of its own accord?

If this is the case, then we're truly fucked!

:wow:

[Sydnie]

143. and the Civil Rights movement should have done just fine without

MLK too I suppose? You have no clue what you are talking about, do you? Messages don't have meaning without a face. You, sir, are faceless and I think that bothers the hell out of you.

Good job trying to "Dixie Chick" the left though. Too bad no one is buying your lunacy here, otherwise, you could be dangerous. As it is, you are just vaguely amusing.

[mntleo2]

126. Sheehan As An Anonymous Yes And Moore I Don't Know

I say this about Sheehan because before anyone knew who she was, as an anonymous American, she set up her lawn chair in the ditch beside Bush's house. I watched this while few others did and I did not see any intention of having what happened afterward as part of her plan. As a matter of fact it seemed at the time to me like it would be just another courageous and agonized plea that would go unheard. She was simply a grieving mother who wanted an answer from her president as to why her son died. Yes she had been speaking out before that, but nobody much was listening...and why should she expect anyone, much less the president, to listen while she is sitting in a ditch by his house? She was making a statement and wanted an answer. What was set into motion after that was a blessing, but I doubt she dreamed anything much would happen (except she would speak her voice) when she began. To me as well as to many what did happen and how she is using it, is a miracle.

As for Moore...he is a movie maker and I hear there is ego attached to that industry all right. But I would venture to say that his reason for becoming one in his original Roger and Me, was because of the unemployment, dire poverty, and rampant greed by the automobile president that destroyed his home town and if he used his big ego to make it, well at least it was not for a social statement and not for some lame movie like "Bedtime For Bonzo", lol. All I remember is the monkey in Bedtime, while in Roger, I am still haunted to this day by the eviction of a family who had lost their job after this company got huge tax breaks and lots of other financial support, they simply packed up and left ~ and their CEOs reaped the benefits of those taxes, but their workers did not. I can still see the decorated Christmas tree this family had being tossed out in the snow as the mother wept. I find this powerful movie making and whether or not Michael was in that scene (I do not believe he was), he silently made a powerful statement with it. If he has made money critiquing those kinds of practices, well, best part of it is that the so-called capitalists should be rejoicing because his work for the poor, the unemployed, has made him rich without causing them grief, but giving them voice.

To me, the triumph of both of these people, is almost a story in itself. At least whatever talents they have is being directed to a message that is not only about themselves. I would much rather see ego be used to bring a meaningful message than perhaps a president whose ego is bruised because of possible harm coming to his dad. So his bruised ego gives him incentive to start a war, killing thousands of people and wreaking havoc while friends profit from it and the rest of his country people (as well as the world) groan under his whip. Sorry but Moore making some money on pointing out hypocrisies is to me using his "ego" in a much more productive way.

But these are my values, I am a liberal and these two people are getting the message out in a way most of us never ever could and in a way it gives ME a voice when I did not have one before. I would rather see such so-called flaws made into something beautiful than those flaws creating something worse.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[agincourt]

200. I think they would quietly

go about the same business as they are now. Moore trys to bring down what is probably the most corrupt administration since the robber baron era. Sheehan is trying to stop a war we didn't have to fight. Their effectiveness may be questioned but their intentions are genuine. These really are two fine people and more Americans should recognize them as so. I consider them assets to our nation even if they aren't 100% right all the time.

[redwitch]

62. How did Cindy Sheehan enter this conversation?

She is a grieving mother who is channeling her grief and anger into an effective protest against this useless goddam war. And Michael Moore does not spew hatred, it is stupid to equate him with Rush or Coulter. IMO

[Cha]

135. My IMO,

too!

[me b zola]

181. So now you're attacking Cindy?

Is there any rw talking point that you have missed?

[TheWatcher]

185. Of course you can respect Al Franken

Because he has the tenacity of milk toast and handles the issues with Kid Gloves, and has pretty much adopted a "don't rock the boat" mentality with things like Voter Fraud in the 2002 and 2004 Elections, and other issues he SHOULD be covering with more tenacity.

It's Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy that probably scare your ass to death.

I wonder why?

[bunkerbuster1]

56. So when is Sicko coming out?

We needed it now, Michael. As in "this year," when Congress is ripe for re-taking.

[chat_noir]

73. Fahrenheit 9/11 - Cannes Palme d'Or

CANNES, France — American filmmaker Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11," a scathing indictment of White House actions after the Sept. 11 attacks, won the top prize Saturday at the Cannes Film Festival.

"Fahrenheit 9/11" was the first documentary to win Cannes' prestigious Palme d'Or since Jacques Cousteau's "The Silent World" in 1956. - Associated Press


Fahrenheit 9/11 brings up many fascinating and inflammatory ideas about George W. Bush, his family, and the way he handled events leading up to and after 9/11. Throughout the film, Moore provides his insights based on interviews, official documents, and news reports. In his first nine months in office, Bush spent 42 percent of his time on vacation and suffered from declining approval ratings. After learning that the planes went into the World Trade Center, Bush sat reading with Florida school children for seven minutes before taking any action. - filmcritic.com



The big moment in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" comes midway through the documentary, and there's no mistaking it: It's the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, and the president of the United States is sitting in a little chair in a Florida classroom. His chief of staff enters and whispers in his ear that the country is under attack. And President George W. Bush just sits there for seven long minutes.

In a forceful documentary devoted to puncturing the image of the president as a take-charge leader, this will be, for many, the tipping point. At the very least, it will be the scene that everyone talks about. Moore doesn't show the whole seven minutes. Instead he lingers on the scene just long enough for the audience to daydream of Eisenhower, Reagan, Truman, Bush senior, Clinton, Nixon or Kennedy in that situation, and to imagine any one of them standing immediately, excusing himself and demanding to be put in touch with his national security team. - Mick LaSalle, San Francisco Chronicle



Unlike many of the politicians it castigates, Moore doesn't exploit the Sept. 11 tragedy for his own purposes. Instead of reviving the indelible images of the World Trade Center collapse, the screen fades to black as the soundtrack rolls on, the shocking sounds of two jumbo jets slamming into the Twin Towers accompanying our collective memories.

The visuals resume immediately after impact, as shocked, shattered New Yorkers struggle to comprehend the incomprehensible.

Bush does just that too -- from the cozy confines of a Florida elementary school classroom, where he remains, deer-in-the-headlights still, even after learning that a second airplane has crashed into the World Trade Center.

From there, Moore deftly deploys an extensive array of cinematic weapons, from interviews to archival video clips, as he zeroes in on his target: how and why Bush and his inner circle used America's post-Sept. 11 climate of fear and dread to manipulate Congress (and the public) into supporting war in Iraq. - Review Journal (Las Vegas)

[PublicRadioVet]

78. I'm out!

Gotta get my day started. I have delayed that long enough.

I knew I'd be asking for trouble when I posted in this thread, but I knew I had to do it because disliking Moore (or Sheehan for that matter) is against the law for many of us liberals, which seems to me to be a mirror reflection of the Bush worship we so despise on the Right. Moore (and Sheehan) enjoy a cult of personality that I find noxious and disturbing, and I'm sad that they have become poster children for liberalism because, for many other people in this nation, moderates and Righties alike, they represent everything that is bad about liberals, and it's tough to call someone like Limbaugh on his bullshit, when we have our own Limbaughs spouting off and otherwise making asses of themselves.

Good day. If I am still allowed to post when I get back from Seattle this evening, it will be a miracle.

:)

[Swamp Rat]

91. Hopefully to go get ready for your next tour of duty in Iraq

Or will you be back to see if we burned your strawman arguments to the ground?

[calmblueocean]

93. Nobody cares whether you "like" Moore, just whether you smear him

Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh are not the same. Saying so just shows that either you're ignorant of what Limbaugh, Coulter, et al. really do.

I've agreed with you on some of your other threads, so this isn't a personal thing. But the fact that you feel Michael Moore gored your ox doesn't make him equivalent to hatemongering liars like Limbaugh or Coulter.

[PublicRadioVet]

100. One more, then I am gone

calm,

Yes, we have agreed on other threads, so I feel I owe you a respectful reply.

In my lurking days I learned that some people at DU believe that ANY criticism of Moore (or Sheehan) is automatically equivalent to smearing. Which is probably why I felt compelled to spout my dislike this morning, if for no other reason than to put the lie to the idea that all liberals fawn over these people. I find it curious that many people take an "attack" on Sheehan or Moore as a personal attack on themselves, which just gets back to my comment about each of these media personalities enjoying a cult of personality. It would be the same as going to Meda Boulevard and getting on a thread for this or that TV show and saying that the star of the show is an ass. The fans would be outraged, and lambast me accordingly.

I didn't expect much different when I posted my comments here today. I really do think that Moore is the shadowy liberal reflection of Limbaugh, and it's been a pain trying to defend liberalism and/or the Democratic Party as the "reasonable" alternative to Bushism, when folk like Moore are busy doing what they do.

I express my dissent because I feel it must be expressed, as the minority opinion amidst the majority. That it upsets a lot of people bums me out, and I hate crossing swords with anyone I have found common cause with in the past, but then again, gentlemen can disagree among gentlemen. Or at least that is the spirit in which I take your post.

Cheers.

[Dawgs]

104. Okay,

Criticizing Sheehan and Moore is one thing; I myself find Sheehan to be somewhat embarrassing. But, to have outright dislike for them is very telling. You are trying to claim that it's okay, but you seem to go way overboard with your "hatred".

If you don't like Moore and Sheehan then which liberals do you like?

[PublicRadioVet]

110. Which liberals do I like?

Joe Lieberman, for one.

Christopher Hitchens is another.

Carl Sagan, as science popularizer, if not in his personal life.

I loved Michael Walzer's unashamed self-scrutinization, "Can There Be a Decent Left?"

I cheered when Alan Sokal blew away the postmodernist trash of Social Text.

Many of the signatories of the Euston Manifesto also come to mind.

[Dawgs]

131. "Joe Lieberman, for one."

I said Liberals. Lieberman is barely a Democrat.

[JNelson6563]

138. hahaha

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

140. That pretty much gives IT away.

:D

[BooScout]

153. For the record.....

I am not a Sheehan Fan either. Neither do I take differing opinions on them as a personal attack on myself. I simply pointing out that your opinion on Mr Moore is wrong.:evilgrin:

[Dawgs]

102. "everything that is bad about liberals"

Nice rant, but I think you've been exposed.

You don't write a comment like that without having dislike for liberals; even though you claim to be one.

[PublicRadioVet]

105. Gotta disagree

Our biggest flaw, as liberals, is that we think we have no flaws.

This is also a #1 sin of the Right.

Our only course then is in being unafraid to confront our own unclothed emperors, our own skeletons in closets, our own bullshit that stinks. We do that, we help ourselves enormously. I don't give a fuck if the Right is full of shit and doesn't know it. Par for the course. I do give a fuck if the Left is full of shit and doesn't know it. That ought to be beneath us and is unbecoming of the reasonable mind.

OK! GOTTA GO! LIKE, 4 REAL!

[Swamp Rat]

118. "Our biggest flaw, as liberals, is that we think we have no flaws." - BS!

Another fallacy. Not only is that a Hasty Generisation, but also Ad Ignorantiam... and considering the entire context of your post, you also committed the Relativist Fallacy.

[PublicRadioVet]

120. You are the expert on fallacies, Swampy!

I'll just have to take your word for it.

OK, I am late for work. BYE!

[Swamp Rat]

127. Y'all give me a lot of practice.

;) Have a nice day! :hi:

[Dawgs]

129. I never said liberals have no flaws, you're putting words in my mouth.

I was making the point that every one of your posts is somehow attacking DUer's, liberals, or Democrats. You do it in many different ways and you do it often.

You even did it in your response to me.

[PublicRadioVet]

103. Must... Step... Away... From... Keyboard!

:argh:

[Bridget Burke]

121. "Allow me to be the first to say..." (from your first post here)

I'd just like to point out that you are NOT the first to use those same arguments against Moore. ("Just like Limbaugh & Coulter.") They've even been parroted at DU from time to time.

By the way--Moore is a filmmaker. He makes films that win a considerable audience; not "blockbusters"--but they do wonderfully for documentaries. And he could find plenty of other subjects if Bush were not in power. Coulter & Limbaugh live on hate--they are not creators.

Adding Cindy Sheehan to your hate list is quite telling.

[PublicRadioVet]

122. I'll be sure to leave my liberal passport at the door, then...

I didn't realize disliking Moore and Sheehan was tantamount to ideological treason.

My bad. I'll go hang with Hitchens. He got drummed out of the club too.

[Bridget Burke]

134. Well, as a "self-defined classical liberal"....

Perhaps you could let us know what Liberal ideas you share. You think protesting hurt the troops. You think the Vietnam War was the right thing for the US to do. Oh--& you think Chavez is "a thug." (Can't you guys buy a thesaurus?)

Even DU'ers who are NOT that Liberal manage to have something good to say about at least ONE Democratic politician.

Hitchens peddled his ass to the other side because single malt scotch just keeps getting more expensive.

[EricWhitaker]

159. It has nothing to do with your dislike

of Moore and Sheehan and everything to do with your illogical/idiotic stated reasons.

Your arguements don't hold water. Your sole purpose is to try and equate DU'ers to Freepers by claiming that DU'ers are lock-step sheeple Bushbots in the mold of Freepers in regards to so-called "heros". When in fact, if you notice, Clinton, Kerry, Gore et al. have all been criticized in the past by people with many opinions. They do not get banned immediately, like on FreeRepublic, as the main difference between the two approaches is that one, the DU approach is based on logic (which your posts lack) and reason, while the other appears to be based entirely on fanaticism and blind loyalty/obediance.

There is a big Difference between Ghandi and Adolph Hitler, but realativist like yourself would metaphoricaly have you believe that because both are flawed human beings, (as we all are), there is really no difference between the two. That is primarily the jist of your idiotic stance. That liberals are no different and that liberals are mindless zombies in the same manner you perhaps perceive freeper types.

*yawn*

[TheWatcher]

186. You're coming to Seattle?

Please leave quickly.

We don't want your kind here.

[hlthe2b]

79. Sadly, this thread has been hijacked...

I do look forward to the update as well as the expected documentary, "SICKO."

[Swamp Rat]

97. That was the objective from the very beginning.

It happens often in Michael Moore threads... I have read HUNDREDS of threads like this and am familiar with the tactics and the overall strategy. :eyes:

[Generic Other]

125. Threads like this one are an embarassment to the left

and so are those who spend all their time slamming voices on our side like MM and Cindy Sheehan.

The more the rightwingers hate them, the more I know they are on target.

Go MM! Go Cindy!

[Swamp Rat]

128. Geaux Cindy Sheehan!!!! Geaux Michael Moore!!!

Geaux Generic Other! :D :hug:

:patriot:

[Cha]

133. Michael's been busy!

I cannot wait for some voter fraud info coming from the meister of docs!

[Jara sang]

188. Hijacked indeed.

Too bad. I'm sure there will be a thousand more posts about the film in the coming months though.

[stepnw1f]

108. Looking forward to It... Aren't You Freepers?

another needle for that bubble you live in.

[Swamp Rat]

119. You're late

:D

:popcorn:

[PublicRadioVet]

124. YUP! Boss'l have my ass!

BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[OxQQme]

137. "10 percent of the movie

and turned it off in disgust" wouldn't have seen the 'embarassed' Heston scene.
BTW, Heston did that to himself. Couldn't give humanistic answers to legit questions.

[lonestarnot]

145. Oh some upset wagons. Guess it must be a good movie. Have to check it

out. Thanks.

[stepnw1f]

149. horrible... just horrible

[Binka]

156. Hey The Pizza Got Delivered!

PublicRadioDouche is chowing on a dog shit pizza right about now.

[stepnw1f]

158. Yup... I Knew I Smelled Something Funny

So I thought I'd say Hi...


Morning Binka!

[Cha]

165. And he was soooo

subtle..Michael Moore is like anthrax coulter and oxyrush limpbaugh..uh huh.

[earth mom]

182. ROFL! Glad to hear that! : )

:woohoo:

[Bridget Burke]

147. Thanks for the information!

This thread is proof that Moore can still make the Rightwingers squeal like stuck pigs.

[RandiFan1290]

163. Just call Mike

The Bridge Shaker!!

:rofl:

[gauguin57]

180. Michael: 3 words of advice for the sequel: PNAC, PNAC and PNAC!

That was the one thing missing from the original that drove me crazy. PNAC's 1998 plans should have been all over "F-9/11" -- he had a big stage upon which to reveal that stuff to America (a LOT of people still have no idea what I'm talking about when I try to tell them about the "Pearl Harbor-type event," etc.)

I WANNA HEAR ABOUT PNAC IN THE SEQUEL!!!!!!!!!

[HughBeaumont]

183. I never understood why Dems consider MM and CS to be extreme . ..

These aren't Che/Maoist/A.N.S.W.E.R. people by any means (not that there's anything wrong with them), they're mid-westerners addressing real issues that our elected leaders aren't answering or investigating. I'm not seeing what's so goddamned "leftist" about questioning?

[dogday]

192. More TRUTH from Michael Moore

And anyone else who doesn't like it, does not want to hear the truth.. It's that simple...:dem:

[Proud Liberal Dem]

193. Michael Moore is needed

Although I occasionally feel that Michael Moore gets little "out there" with some of his antics, I feel like he is one of the few "voices in the wildnerness" out there still willing to put himself front and center in order to confront people like Bush whom are making it increasingly more difficult for the "average" person to survive in today's America. He is a representation of the kind of leadership we SHOULD be getting (but are not) from Democrats in Congress. Having read most of his books to date and having seen most of his films, I haven't really seen any evidence that he is the left's "version" of Limbaugh, Coulter, etc. While, of course, he is not sympathetic at all to the GOP and the Christian Right's agenda and can respond with "hyperbole" at times, he skewers the Democrats when he feels that he needs to just about as much as the GOP. "Stupid White Men," for instance, seemed to me, at times, to be almost AS CRITICAL of the Democrats, Clinton/Gore especially, as of the GOP. In both "Stupid White Men" and "Dude, Where's My Country," he does attempt to point out some of what he feels are flaws in the left's positions on some issues and tries to suggest some ways to possibly bridge the gaps between liberals and conservatives in some areas. Also, he does seem to research his subjects thoroughly before presenting them and he doesn't seem to pretend that he has all of the answers, usually only presenting thoughts, suggestions, or questions. Even while he is clearly biased against and critical of Bush's response to 9/11 and the "War on Terror" as documented in "Dude, Where's My Country" and F911, I don't feel like he tells the audience what to think so much as he raises some good questions that we, as a country, really NEED answers to. I really hope that he does NOT stop working any time soon. We need people like him more than ever right now in our darkest hour. We should be so lucky that we have somebody like him ON OUR SIDE. I believe that more of us need to get out there in trenches and fight with him or, at the very least, stop trying to undermine him. He's the best "weapon" we have right now against Bush/GOP.

[in_cog_ni_to]

196. Excellent news! I hope it PACKS the theaters like #1 F911 did.

Thank you, Michael! :hug: Love that man!