Just read "Davinci code" a spoiler question and observation. SPOIL

[Lerkfish]

DO NOT READ IF YOU DON'T WISH TO BE SPOILED!

Yes, I know I waited until the last possible moment to read it before it became a movie...but anyways:

observations:
The writing quality is worse than mediocre. Even as a generic mystery novel, the writing an plotting is piss-poor. I forced myself to finish it just to see the how it would end, not because it deserved my time.
Now, if Ludlum or Carre had written it, it would have been a different story.
I felt like the writer had a 4th rate mystery, and simply plugged in the opus dei and holy grail to try to sell it.

Now, on to my questions:

1. I do not understand OPus Dei's objections to the book at all. First of all, its fiction, and second of all (spoiler):




opus dei is exhonerated at the end, like the other lame red herrings. so why the hell are they upset? did they not make it to the end? (not that I'd blame them, I had to force myself to).

2. The ending is the lamest ending ever -- they just return to status quo, after multiple deaths and international intrigue...not really understanding the purpose of everything, then. I imagine this is why the Cannes audience laughed at the ending.

3. THIS IS AN INTERNATIONAL BEST SELLER? I mean, wtf? Compare this with Clive Barker's Imajica, ALSO a novel that messes with out preconceived notions of the deity and church, and much, much, better written. I don't get our society sometimes, I really don't.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. I never read the book and won't see the movie.

I remember perusing the book out of sheer curiosity after all the hype.

Within a few pages, I think I exclaimed out loud, "Who wrote this shit?"

[Lerkfish]

2. precisely, and the next words out of my mouth were:

"I could write better than this when I was in high school!"

[Name removed]

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[Starbucks Anarchist]

9. LOL, I'm a non-reader?

I've read many books in my life, all of them much better written than the Da Vinci Code.

BTW, the majority isn't always right -- look who the President is.

[Name removed]

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[Starbucks Anarchist]

15. I'm an atheist, so I don't care about what religion it supposedly attacks.

Please direct me to one of your novels so I can compare, if you can then prove it or shut up with the nonsense

So I have to write a novel in order to complain about him? I guess I should run for President then since I think Dubya's a world-class failure.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

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[treestar]

63. Getting published these days is not proof of writing well

It is proof you know someone in the publishing business.

Many people can write well and do have to have a job to support themselves, not having time to make the contacts even if they had in "in" to get there.

The big publishing companies are like all other big companies - full of fat and ripe to be competed with by up and coming companies or methods. You see great writing on the internet and you just know there's a way to get that material out there bypassing the big publishing companies.



:party:

[Name removed]

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[Dorian Gray]

141. Yes there is a lot of trash out there in the publishing world...

Hell, I read a lot of trash. I like some of the NYC based Chick Lit put out by Red Dress Ink, and that's not exactly mind-expanding or wonderful literature. I also enjoy James Patterson. Da Vinci Code was along the same lines. Trash and easy to read. I finished it in two sittings, and it isn't something, like Anna Karenina or even Gone With the Wind, that will stay with me. It was trash. Two page chapters, each with cliffhangers? Come on!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

82. Er...uh...can you please tell me where you are persuing your

law degree? I would like to make sure that I never hire anyone from that school.

Thanks,
sP

[Name removed]

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[Lerkfish]

90. actually, I think you're mixing up posters, *I* said I could write better

and I can. but, for a new guy, you're throwing around the "repuke" label a bit inappropriately.

[Hamlette]

104. actually Delge, the book is horribly written, as are all of his books

Books that are well written are not necessarily best sellers. If you are looking well written, there are zillions of books out there. Brown's books are not among them.

I work in an independent bookstore, we are all huge readers, some read as many as 5 books a week. We all agree, and laugh about the book, it is dreadfully written. There is no character development. When I finished it I threw it across the room in disgust.

The only thing I found interesting in the entire book was the observation about the painting The Last Supper.

I would have loved to see a good yarn that pokes a stick in the eye of the church. I guess it was too much to ask that it be well written.

(Delge, I wouldn't ordinarily come down on someone for their taste in books but you really shouldn't turn a discussion about books into a personal attack on other posters. That opens you up because it is an unfair way to argue your case.)

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ProdigalJunkMail]

19. actually that's pretty funny

a lot of books sell well simply because they ARE poorly written and easy for an eighth grader to comprehend. You write a commercial novel to sell it and in order for that to happen you have to make some concessions (unless you just suck as a writer and then maybe it will come naturally to you). The books are poorly written even though the story may be a page-turner. I read DaVinci and A&D in about a day and a half each. Very easy read...which makes it a good seller. Heck, look at the Left Behind series...poorly written as well, but incredible sellers.

sP

[tkmorris]

40. See: Dean Koontz

The man cannot write but he sells millions of novels. He excels not in writing but in telling stories which is a completely different skill. When you are sitting at the campfire telling a story you NEED to keep it simple, to appeal to the broadest audience. Simple but exciting. The oral equivalent of the movie Die Hard.

Dean Koontz tells stories. Dan Brown does too, though usually not well. The Da Vinci Code however is a fine yarn, but a terrible novel. It sold a metric buttload of copies but then so does McDonalds.

As you say, if you want to be as commercially successful as possible you have to write in a fashion that is accessible to as many people as possible. In short, dumb it down. I suspect that Dan Brown didn't dumb it down at all; this is actually the extent of his talents but nonetheless he did hit upon a story that appeals to a great many people.

I am ashamed to admit I read both types of writers actually. Tom Robbins for example is far superior to Brown in terms of writing but he will never sell as many copies. His writing goes right over the heads of a great many people. Sometimes I'm in the mood for haute cuisine and other days I just want a double cheeseburger.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

42. can you convert that 'metric buttload' into imperial units for me?

my calculator doesn't have that conversion :-) I read both types as well and find myself from time to time enjoying both...so, I guess that says a lot about me :-)

sP

[Name removed]

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[bryant69]

70. I hate McNovels but I love that Special Sauce.

What am I to do?

[Bucky]

114. One word: "illiterate lovers". Okay, that's two words. But whatever.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

80. law student? yeah ok

you know me so well...and obviously haven't even read my other posts in this thread...oh well...

sP

[Name removed]

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[Lerkfish]

92. Are you Dan Brown? LOL...if someone doesn't like a book, or feels it is

not written well, I'm not sure why that ties up your shorts in a knot.

popular culture is based on individual tastes, to a large degree, hence "american idol" and "elimidate" and "Lost" and "24" and "Will and Grace" and "7th heaven" all being shown on the same television.

don't sweat the small stuff. Accept that not everyone shares your assessment of DaVinci Code.
I never expected everyone to agree with mine.

[DELGE]

127. they should have to back up thier assesment and show better

they obviously haven't read a book in thier lives and then try to critisize a great scientist and a great writer when they can't even come close? Come on hold them to a higher standard.

[Lerkfish]

137. what standards would those be? yours?

the one where you insult perfect stranger's intelligence instead of making an actual argument?

no thanks, I prefer normal discussions

[ProdigalJunkMail]

139. I wish you could respond...

but Brown is NOT a scientist! Damn...ok...i'll stop

sP

[AbbyR]

154. I liked the Da Vinci Code

and I like some Dean Koonz. I read like a fiend, going through several books a week if I have the time and if they are easy to comprehend and not too deep. I slow down when I'm reading to learn, or working on a book that requires more of me, and that's fine. But the other day, one of my "deep" books was just getting too depressing, so I pulled out a mystery novel from my TBR pile and read it, then went back to the more difficult book.

Don't many readers do that? The thing that really drives me wild is typos, spelling errors and poor copy editing. If publishers are going to spend the money to publish a book, the least they can do is fix spelling errors.

[hfojvt]

178. Koontz can't write, but he can tell a story?

That's a bit confusing. What is writing, if not putting a story to paper? Stories need to be confusing in order to be well written?

Is Tom Robbins your best example of somebody who, in your eyes, can write? Admittedly Koontz has written some dogs, and is veering to the right as well as running out of ideas, but I still consider Watchers, Lightning, Cold Fire, and Shadowfires to be great books, but I have not read any Tom Robbins or Clive Barker.

[Name removed]

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[ProdigalJunkMail]

81. Wow...more critical analysis from Delge!

Yes, I think 60 million people read books because they are easy to read...

Grammar isn't your first love, is it?

sP

[Name removed]

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[bryant69]

67. Hey don't tell anybody but I'm in Opes Dai

Someday we will liberate the people from constrictions of grammer and spelling!

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Agnomen]

79. "it sold 60 million copies "

and MacDonald's sold 3 billion (or whatever) hamburgers. Don't confuse "good" with "popular".

[DELGE]

51. funny the president didn't have the majority so that is out the window huh

Dan Brown is even called a good writter by the church that is why they are afraid because he is a great story teller. Have you read any of his other books?

If not you should and that would be the only fair way to judge because you are obviously christian and biased

[AllieB]

61. I have, and he writes at the 8th grade level

He is a good story teller, and from a technical level, a terrible writer. Just because he sold millions of copies, it doesn't mean he's like Mark Twain or Tolstoy. It's like Bill O'Reilly saying his show is high-quality because he beats others in ratings. The most popular shows are reality shows, which pretty much says everything you need to know about the educational level in this country.

As H.L. Mencken said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

[ProdigalJunkMail]

83. Please pay attention...

you're speaking to an atheist.

sP

[Dorian Gray]

150. All his books are trash.

He is not a great writer. The church is not afraid of him because of his talent. They fear the negative effects of an easily influenced populace who no longer is familiar with their theology because of lack lustre faith. It has nothing to do with his "talent."

[Name removed]

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[The Witch]

26. Read this :)

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000844.html

[Lerkfish]

35. thanks! LOL!

[insane_cratic_gal]

38. LOL my exact thoughts!

I read the first paragraph, I stopped and ran out to my husband who had read the book prior, "You have to be kidding me! If the first paragraph is any indication of how the rest of the book is going to stumble along! I'll be out cold 10 mins after reading it."

Sure enough it was my snooze book for the next month, I just never got hooked or excited about it. Not once.

[chimpymustgo]

169. LOL!! It was my snooze book too!

I forced myself to read it a couple of weeks ago, in anticipation of the movie. The book turned into my perfect, automatic lights-out. It took me a week to read the damn thing...but it was a week of very good night's sleeps.

[Mr_Spock]

149. Dark emotions

I love it when the reader is sure to hate it from word one.

Jealousy - best served over ice.

I've never seen such a childish anaysis in my entire life.

Some people just hate success.

First & last comment on this topic.

[The Witch]

174. I think the folks that did that particular analysis

have no problem with books' success, considering their job is to ensure it.

:eyes:

[Strong Atheist]

43. Welcome to D.U. Enjoy your stay. nt.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

50. Judging from your writing skills I can see your bias.

I can understand not sticking to grammatical norms on a discussion board but that is a little over the top.

sP

[Viva_La_Revolution]

106. I enjoyed the story

but this is by no means "one of the best written books out"! It took me 2 days, because it's mostly fluff, written for the masses.

[WinkyDink]

111. Beg to differ, having actually studied and taught GREAT LITERATURE.

The kind that has, oh, DEPTH.

[Wickerman]

4. It's a great book

for folks who read one book a year. Someone posted that awhile back. That might be a bit harsh on the reading audience, but might explain why it caught fire the way it did. Controversy, marketing, etc.

[Tony_Illinois]

5. I Liked the Book--

Too bad the whole world is not at your level of literary sophistication.

[FreakinDJ]

6. Lame hypothetical BS

Geez I pity folks you use the Devinci Code as their only reference to theology and medieval history. Brown used long since discredited theories to write his Catholic bashing novel

[matcom]

10. did you feel the same about 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail'?

i assume you read that too as it was the basis for Brown's fictitious novel

[FreakinDJ]

39. My father is a classical historian and speaks several ancient languages

Was teaching high school classes part time when he was 21 years old. Yes during that period of time corruption was rampant through out the Catholic hierarchy - just like it was throughout the Noble/Royal families that ruled Europe too

Brown’s book seizes upon loosely translated events, a lot of fiction, and bunch disproved theories to amount to little more then catholic bashing. Maybe all us Catholics should start wearing some sort of identification on our lapel

[matcom]

45. you didn't answer my question

which dealt with 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail'

there appears to be a great deal of fact in that book and it is backed up pretty strongly. have you read it?

Dan Brown's is a fictional tale that uses the above book as a reference nothing more

[FreakinDJ]

52. would you be defending those books as well?

I read Browns book, I have no intention of wasting my money on “Holy Blood, Holy Grail” and pitty people for who these books serve as their only source of historical teachings.

Now if we were discussing KKK literature claiming no Jews were massacred during WWII would you be defending those books as well?

The ''Holy Blood, Holy Grail'' is a masterpiece of insinuation and supposition, employing all the techniques of pseudohistory to symphonic effect, justifying this sleight of hand as an innovative scholarly technique called ''synthesis,'' previously considered too ''speculative'' by those whose thinking has been unduly shaped by the ''so-called Enlightenment of the 18th century.''

Comparing themselves to the reporters who uncovered the Watergate scandal, the authors maintain that ''only by such synthesis can one discern the underlying continuity, the unified and coherent fabric, which lies at the core of any historical problem.'' To do so, one must realize that ''it is not sufficient to confine oneself exclusively to facts.''

[matcom]

55. too bad for you.

Holy Blood Holy Grail is the ONE book to read out of the two.

frankly as an atheist i don't personally have a dog in this fight but i must admit you rabid, close-minded Catholics are an amusing bunch.

as for your Holocaust reference, i don't personally like to compare historical facts with possible Mythology.

apples & oranges I say

[bryant69]

75. Perhaps I'm missing something

Who are you describing as a rabid, close minded Catholic?

[FreakinDJ]

76. Proof is in the pudding – you haven’t learned your lesson

Like I said a sad portrayal of the truth. You readily admit being atheist and not having a dog amongst the fight yet defend Brown’s book. Which by the way is the ripped off theme of ''Holy Blood, Holy Grail''.

Brown’s book has all the scholarly scrutiny as the dumb fuck that used to come around DU with his theories of the 911 planes used reprogrammed flight systems and there were actually no hijackers involved. The same gross leaps of logic devoid of facts that eventually led to LIHOP being discredited.

In my opinion, a CIA dis-information psych-ops group could not have done a better job to squelch all opposing views to the governments version of events.

Now we have Brown’s book based upon the 1982 book Holy Blood, Holy Grail, which ignored droves of facts to promote discredited theories.

Not a vary sound position is it

[matcom]

78. the only DEFENSE i gave of Brown's book

was that it was a fictional novel that i enjoyed despite being poorly written.

nothing more, nothing less.

i also enjoyed reading 'Shutter Island' but you probably don't want to debate whether or not there is a corrupt mental institution hidden from the public out on a barrier island off Boston Harbor that brainwashes those who stumble upon it. :shrug:

'Christine' was a real page-turner for me as well. Oh, I suppose you don't believe that a classic car can be inherrently evil and cause its owner to murder others.

amazing :eyes:

[FreakinDJ]

121. Sad but true

All I implied that is was sad to think that for many Brown’s book will be the only education they have of medieval history.

Sad but true

[LostinVA]

167. You mean "Christine" wasn't real???

Damn. I shouldn't have blown up that Fury last week, then...

[aquart]

98. LIHOP has been discredited?

and yet I still believe it. Perhaps you mean MIHOP.

[FreakinDJ]

118. again Proof is in the Pudding

Has LIHOP ever seen the light of day in any major publication (newsprint) or aired on a major televised network in this country ???

Or better yet enter a discussion about LIHOP at work. You'll hear "lunatic fringe" and "Conspiracy Theorist" used to discredit you. Sad but true.

Brown's work, or better yet the work he ripped off employs the same lack of credibility. Once again pay close attention to the word "Fiction" used to describe his work

[matcom]

122. i simply cannot understand why you are so anti-fiction

:shrug:

your attack on fiction is mind-boggling

[FreakinDJ]

134. Obviously Dis-information served Bush well

It is only coencidence his father, and VP functioned in the CIA which amongst other things used Dis-information as a means to discredit those they oppose

[matcom]

155. do you really believe you are being rational?

really?

REALLY?

its a fucking novel. you act like it has the power to take down your beloved church or something.

jeezus.

[DELGE]

60. Holy Blood Holy Grail

SUCKS it is not a good book at all and says it is based on fact unlike the Dan Brown Book

To all of you Dan Brown works on a particle accelerator and is not a full time novelist. your critiques are wrong and even if you were correct in your assessments he is a Particle physicist at the best most advanced Quantum accelerator in the world so he is a multi talent.

Unlike the people who have only bad things to say with no work of their own that even comes close to any of Brown's works in physics and writing

[Bridget Burke]

89. Holy Blood Holy Grail uses lots of history....

The Merovingians, The Cathars, the Templars--lots of good stuff there. And some interesting folklore & literature, as well. (The Grail had a past before it was linked to the Last Supper.) But the bits of real history just don't "link" as needed to advance the premise of HBHG. And the Priory of Sion was discovered to be a prank--& the surviving HBHG writers admit they were fooled. (But--it was an INTERESTING prank!)

Holy Blood Holy Grail left me with the feeling that "this COULD be true." Even then, I took it as an interesting intellectual game. But the writers did their homework. Unfortunately, calling the book "non-fiction" let Dan Brown rip off the main ideas.

Perhaps some Dan Brown fans will go further into the matters he discussed. There is a LOT of information out there--from dry history to flights of fancy. But most of those books never made it to the Best Seller list.

NOTE: Many non-Catholics find Catholicism exotic, alluring & mysterious. Some were taught to fear the Church--especially if they were raised in one of the more austere Protestant sects. Learning Church history reveals many fascinating details that can be sold as "ancient secrets"--simply because most people never learned much about Late Antiquity & the Middle Ages. A study of myth, legend, comparative religion & psychology also helps one interpret some of these "Arcane Mysteries."

[DELGE]

133. No Holy Blood was a freak show but the writing was OK technically

I didn't however like the premise of the story and it had alot of hypothetical non provable stuff but Brown says his is a story and fake.


People get it? Fake Fiction and a story not real and not dangerous so the religious nut cases can get over it

[Name removed]

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[ProdigalJunkMail]

84. Rabbi...can you help me

please understand you? As a teacher I would expect you to know how to form a sentence so that you could express your teachings.

sP

[matcom]

99. .

:spray:

[DELGE]

115. I am in my car driving in traffic so excuse me

I teach Hebrew and Aramaic not English and what does that have to do with it?

I didn't say I was better at writing than Dan Brown they did.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

125. you're a joke

you don't know any language if that is good writing or your understanding of why people do or don't like it. And your arguments and insults tell much much about you...

sP

[matcom]

7. Question - Re: Imajica

was in Barnes & Nobel yesterday and saw Imajica on the shelf. Split into book 1 and 2. I like Clive Barker but didn't purchase simply because there was NO synopsis of the book. Just Clive's pic on the softcover back.

ALMOST bought it but didn't. Can you tell me a little about it? I might go back and pick them up.

Thanks

[Lerkfish]

24. I HIGHLY reccommend Imajica, one of the best books I've ever read.

I'd be afraid to tell you too much to spoil it, except to say that it deals with life, existence, the deity and the son of the deity. There is a mystery and there is adventure, but its mainly spiritual. The church does not fare well, but it deserves not to (in reference to child exploitation).
Like other Barker novels, there is a pervasive element of the macabre, but more than his other novels, this is one of enlightenment, of compassion, of self-actualization, of risk and fear, and above all of love.

hows that for a review? read it. you won't be sorry about the writing.

[matcom]

44. thank you

the cover looked like a fantasy novel to me. true?

[Lerkfish]

47. yes. sorta.

Its a fantasy novel...but not much like the rest of the genre, Barker is hard to classify sometimes.

[RebelOne]

8. There are others who liked the book and Dan Brown

is laughing all the way to the bank with the profits from the book and movie.

[Lerkfish]

27. that is obviously so. However, in this instance, popularity does not equal

quality.

[insane_cratic_gal]

11. Yup the writing was lacking

Opus dei objected due to one member being a psycho killer.. killing for the church not to mention the head leader in the story was going to use the grail as leverage against the Catholic church which was going to oust them due to their mutilation fetish.
Just makes them look like extremist.


The whole idea was ripped off from Holy Blood Holy Grail and a few other books he references. The only thing that is Brown is the poorly written characters.

I think it was more or less the concept that Christ as a human being, having loved, married, and had sex, a wife and a child (which is all speculated in HB HG book above) that lured many to the book.

It's an intriguing story, even if the writing bores one to death.

[DELGE]

13. Imajica was good but not close to Dan Brown's Book

Can you people even read???

[insane_cratic_gal]

18. Brown's work is on par with a 6th grade reading level

there is nothing sophisticated about it. The idea wasn't even his, it's ripped off from a historical speculation of Holy Blood Holy Grail.

[Name removed]

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[bryant69]

77. Thank Goodness the Da Vinci Code has

Literate and Erudite defenders like you - frankly I can totally see how a person of your specific intelligence level would be drawn to the Da Vinci Code. Your arguments are completely on the same level as the work you defend.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

85. come now...must we both be working on this

surely one of us has something better to do than continue this discourse with the learned Rabbi...

sP <---I have nothing better to do at the moment so feel free to move on :-)

[annarbor]

100. Does your mom know....

you're using her computer? Are you allowed upstairs after they go to work? Suspended from school again?

Honestly,
the DaVinci Code was an entertaining read for many, not for everyone. I saw the movie and it was a huge disappointment. I did like Angel's and Demons and hope that they attempt a movie out of that book as it was far better than the DaVinci Code...perhaps with different actors and directors though.

Ann Arbor

[ProdigalJunkMail]

109. my thoughts exactly...

thank you :-)

sP

[Name removed]

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[Lerkfish]

29. yes. I can read.

I have not attacked any readers, here. Only the work of fiction in and of itself.

you would do well to follow my example.

[Clark2008]

34. Considering the poster you're responding to just

inferred that Jesus had sex with a child because of her dangling metaphor, I'm guessing... not much.

:hi: welcome to DU.

[Lerkfish]

36. I did? where was that?

your reading comprehension = not so much.

unless you're not referring to me?

[bluemarkers]

14. I enjoyed it

but it was summer reading - you know the type of thing you can read at the pool and not miss a thing.

Anyway - I think both the book and movie are "popular" for a few reasons.

1. truthiness (allowing those that do not normally read feel intellectual)

2. Christians are taught that Christ is Divine, and if you do not believe it, then you are hell bound. This allows people to think about the "what if" safely. Afterall they are thinking about and discussing a book, not reality.

3. it's a fad, and "if the southern baptists are agin' it, it must be good."


/2 cents worth

[Epiphany4z]

16. I agree

observations:
The writing quality is worse than mediocre. Even as a generic mystery novel, the writing an plotting is piss-poor. I forced myself to finish it just to see the how it would end, not because it deserved my time.
Now, if Ludlum or Carre had written it, it would have been a different story.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Even my 15 yr old said the writing quality was poor...and yet we both enjoyed the book.

[Name removed]

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[Lerkfish]

94. I'm at 6 insults by you in this thread and counting...

please discuss the issue without insults...if you're capable of doing so. thanks.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

105. you are asking much

please consider when making such requests that a person with this sort of a beginning to their DU carrier is not likely to make a change ;-)

sP

[ProdigalJunkMail]

102. are you?

Come...show us your brilliance. I doubt you could outshine an 8 watt bulb.

sP

[Epiphany4z]

132. I don't know about

an atheist having to write it just maybe a better writer. Really ...I enjoyed the story I just thought The writing style left a bit to desired. .the writing style seemed to me to be about a jr or high school level.

It is just silly to think being and atheist has anything to do with liking or not liking somebody's writing style. I think the story was a good idea that could have been better done...still I liked it.

[LWolf]

17. Some comments:

While the book is not exceptionally well-written, it's not as bad as you make it, either. It's ok. Not better than ok, but no worse.

I believe it's popularity as a book comes from the topic. It touches on emotional hot-buttons, which generates a lot of energy. Namely, the deeply embedded frustration with organized xtianity. It doesn't have to be well-written to trigger people's reactions.

Why would the church be upset? They aren't vindicated in the end. In the book, they are still the people who want truth eradicated in favor of their power-mongering versions. While the premise is fiction, this cuts a little too close to the reality of religious power structures for church comfort. Which is exactly why people like the story; as already mentioned, it portrays organized religion as fraudulent.

The end? I'm guessing it ends the way it does because a public "discovery" would not make for a good conclusion, but for the beginning of a whole new tale. The fiction feels more "realistic" when you leave the mystery untouched with the general public. If the story ended with the "heir" going public, she'd be assassinatedor the whole "secret society" would be disbanded somehow. Not a satisfying conclusion to a dramatic story like this, either.

Just my take, of course!

[rosesaylavee]

20. It is controversial because it questions a very basic

foundational belief shared by all Christianity... that historical assumptions made about the early church, which were given to us by the Roman Church, were based on calculated lies. And the more they squirm and protest that it isn't so, the more people will flock to the movie or read the book to see what the protestations are all about.

And Opus Dei IS an odd organization with some decidedly odd practices that obviously they didn't want closely scrutinized. From what I understand, they do practice flagellation and self-inflicted wounding... Whatever gets them through the day, but there you have it.

And finally, its just a story about ideas that allow people to start thinking for themselves about their faith and spiritually. IMO, its about time people take responsibility for their belief and how it affects their actions.

I liked it - thought it a fun movie to see and I thoroughly enjoyed reading the book - it is a fun adventure and the ideas were thought-provoking.

[Dawgs]

21. I'm not a big fan of Dan Brown's writing, but it's not that bad.

Geez, be happy that people are actually reading, instead of attacking them for being stupid. Oh wait, you read the book, so does that make you stupid?

FWIW, I read "Angels and Demons" first, which I thought was much more believable than the DaVinci Code; and not nearly as crappy a story. I don't think I would have read a Dan Brown book again if I hadn't read A & D's first.

[Lerkfish]

32. I don't recall calling anyone stupid in my OP

and I reread it, and gosh, no I didn't. I said I don't get our society. from that you interpolate that I'm calling people stupid?

:shrug:

[jbnow]

185. That's how I feel

"happy that people are actually reading"! It is a good way to use the brain.

I did not read this book but I am happy it got so popular. It gets people reading but even more it might get them questioning in general. We need a more questioning state of mind...more awareness the surface can fool us.

If people enjoyed it it is a good book to them. I know some very bright voracious readers who enjoyed it and some people who rarely read that enjoyed it.

That's a good thing.

[peacetalksforall]

22. No one is claiming that it is well written. The reason people are reading

it is the fictional theme. The other possibility in 'history'.

Plus, we have the author to thank for educating people about the secret society within the Catholic Church, which is not fiction. Who knows if they have passed money, conspired, or killed for any reason. For me, I don't resent any author for weaving them into a plot because a secret society within a Church should not exist. The Catholic Church can get by with a simpler purpose than it has had in its history - a purpose in the spirit of St. Francis. But that is not the case as we well know.

Does the Church deserve this kind of attention which they are really worried about? Obviously, yes.

By the way, do women still have to enter their building in New York by the side door? Obviously, Opus Dei is not an equal opportunity secret society.

Read the book. See the movie. I highly recommend both.

[insane_cratic_gal]

33. But Opus Dei isn't a secret society?

In Brown's book they buy their way into the catholic religion or at least the acknowledgment (part of what Dei is ticked about) so they can be considered authentic.

Do you mean Priory of Sion? I think it's been proved there was once a sect that once existed but hasn't been authenticated since the 1400? I can't remember the exact date I saw it on the history channel, thought it was an interesting little side note.

[peacetalksforall]

46. I'm speaking about the real Opus Dei - not the fictional version. I

can't believe people mix them. I don't believe that the Catholic Church needs a secret society within its existence.

I applaud Brown for weaving them into a piece of fiction.

[insane_cratic_gal]

49. But Opus still was never a secret society

You state this
we have the author to thank for educating people about the secret society within the Catholic Church, which is not fiction

Actually the Prion was a secret society of the catholic church not Opus. Far as I have read and seen Opus has never been some secret society

I'm not mixing them up, but I though,t you may be given the statement, but perhaps I just didn't read what you had written correctly.

[peacetalksforall]

72. I say very clearly - Opus Dei is a society within the Catholic Church. It

is becomning less secret. And I'll add, I have read nothing good about it. It is the opposite of what the Church should be.

And I'll repeat - it is good that it has become less secret. My low opinion of it formed way before I heard about the book.

Opus Dei is real.
Opus Dei in this novel about the Holy Grail is just fiction.

People should be careful in the distinction.

[peacetalksforall]

59. I can't quite interpret what you are writing, but if you're asking if Opus

Dei is a secret society or not. It is a society. It's becoming less secret. It exists within the Catholic Church.

It was introduced in a book that looks at an old question - what did Christ do in the missing years and what was all that 'stuff' about the crusades and all those templars?

For me the book was masterful in its weaving of codology and symbolism - I like to learn and learn I did.

The book OPENED A WONDERFUL NEW DOOR FOR PEOPLE WITH A CURIOSITY! HOORAY! We don't have to buy the shrink wrapped package of beliefs that we have been handed - IF WE ARE CURIOUS and have an open mind. Doors don't open as easily as they have through this piece of fiction and the movie based on it. And VIVA to being educated about OPUS DEI. I now have all kinds of sources for learning more about it.

And don't forget - when something is totally secret - everyone on both sides of it are right about it because it's a secret.

[theboss]

128. Why did it advertise meetings in my college paper then?

Secret Societies typically don't recruit that way.

[peacetalksforall]

144. The path to spreading it and making money involves having a face.

The center of it is secret. Started in the 1920's and only a household word in the 2000's. It influences religious policy behind the scenes. Much is not known and suppressed.

You might want to look at the web site recommended above:

http://www.odan.org/

Opus Dei Awareness Network, Inc.

From there, there may be many places to take more looks.

We all need counter-balance.

While you're there at the web site - see if your favorite author is on their banned list requiring permission to read from Opus Dei in Rome.

Also - their presence is very immersed in the Bush administration.

They may be providing a fast track to Orwell's 1984.

[rosesaylavee]

182. Hang in there HC

I am with you on this - Opus Dei is an odd society - any group that advocates wearing a cilice and self flagellation is not a healthy one IMHO. I am the product of 20 years of Roman Catholic education and thought I knew a lot of the history of the Church and never came across this group until only recently, so they really haven't been 'out there' for very long. I ceased being a Catholic, fallen away or otherwise, in the mid 90s but until then, pretty much followed the happenings in the Church.

They are odd and noticed that there wasn't a reference on their website to their members' private flagellations... so, that must still be a secret? If its not odd, why aren't they promoting it as a perk of membership? I can see a new banner on the front page "Hey, y'all, slap yourself silly when you join up with us!" :)

[Bridget Burke]

145. Do many "secret societies" have websites?

www.opusdei.org/

Will Dan Brown expose the Shriners in his next book? Or maybe the Odd Fellows--I've always wondered what's so "odd" about them.

[rinsd]

130. Just like Harry Potter is educational about Wicca

:sarcasm:

[theHandpuppet]

23. Interesting LTTE regarding "Da Vinci" critics and "Left Behind"

From the Cincy Enquirer: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060530/EDIT0202/605300339/1090

DAVINCI CRITICS QUIET ABOUT 'LEFT BEHIND'

I find it interesting that some who are upset about "The Da Vinci Code" did not find equal consternation for the "Left Behind" novel series. While the "Left Behind" movies were never blockbusters, the series of novels by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins are in their own right best-sellers. What is troubling, however, is that the "Left Behind" series is premised on a very questionable 19th century interpretation of the Book of Revelation by John Nelson Darby, who originated the "secret rapture" theory, wherein Christ will snatch away his true believers from this world without warning. This view, however, is seriously challenged as not only flawed, but unbiblical, just as the fantastic claims in "the Da Vinci Code" are being appropriately challenged as flawed and unbiblical.

I have read the "Left Behind" books, and I have read "The Da Vinci Code," and they always made for good reading. But both are works of fiction - even if their authors claim otherwise, albeit from opposite sides of the aisle - and should not be considered more than a relaxing way to spend an evening.

Rev. David N. Young, Westwood

[Bridget Burke]

183. Catholic objections to "Left Behind" were ignored by the press....

Two years ago I was engaged in an e-mail exchange with a Fundamentalist pastor, who wrote:

But as an effort to still save your soul, if indeed my concerns for you are true, may I urge you to reexamine the Mariolatry of the Church you have bought into. I will not badger you with the unscriptural practice of making Mary “the mother of God” or “the Queen of Heaven” which comes from Babylonish paganism not Christianity or Scripture.

It was typical Fundamentalist fare, but the man who penned it was no ordinary Fundamentalist. He was Dr. Tim LaHaye, one of the most influential Christians—Catholic or Protestant—in America over the past thirty years. A founding member of the Moral Majority, LaHaye is best known today as creator/co-author of the mega-selling Left Behind books, the most popular works of Christian fiction in history. Since 1995, when the first Left Behind novel appeared, the “end times” series (now twelve volumes strong and with two more coming) has sold some sixty million copies.

Lots more here: www.catholicleague.org/research/leftbehind.htm

Why were objections to the "Left Behind" books mostly ignored? Dan Brown is just a writer--out to support himself (very well). Tim LaHaye is a power in the Religious Right. His wife, Beverly, founded Concerned Women for America to fight the Equal Rights Amendment. Check out CFAW for advance notice of the next religious "controversy." (They covered The War Against Christmas years ago!) CFAW has made a temporary truce with the Church because of abortion & gay rights. But Catholics should not be fooled.

www.cwfa.org/articledisplay.asp?id=10733&department=CFI&categoryid=cfreport

[MemphisTiger]

25. The writing is not that bad, I don't know anyone that claimed

that it was going to win any awards.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. I'm a big reader, but I only got about 1/3 through it.

Because of the writing. The subject matter was mildly interesting, but I've also studied the history of Christianity which is far more fascinating all by itself without the necessity of dressing it up in an adventure story.

OTOH I'm glad to see it's success. A lot of people are taking a look at their "belief systems" (which aren't usually based on anything other conformity).

I'm an ex-Catholic agnostic who has become an admirer of Jesus the wandering revolutionary who was killed by the powers that be and whose message was perverted by organized religion.

For anyone truly interested in the historical Jesus, try the writings of John Dominic Crossan and others from the "Jesus Project".

"Sacred cows make the best hamburger" - Mark Twain

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[adriennui]

30. the writing is bland and formulaic the subject is intriguing

as i was reading i thought it would make a terrific movie (and i was right).....the movie is entertaining and fun. brown does not write "literature", so compared to most of the other crap on the bestseller lists, it's a step above.

i normally don't see the big hollywood flicks but it was an enjoyable 2 1/2 hours.

[Tesha]

107. If it were so formulaic...

> the writing is bland and formulaic the subject is intriguing

If it were so formulaic, would there not be a lot more
books out there executing the formula and selling their
60 million copies?

(Just asking; I find it odd that so many people claim
this novel so pedestrian yet they seem quite unable to
duplicate its fame and fortune. Me thinks that maybe
they're just jealous of Dan Brown.)

Tesha

[DoYouEverWonder]

31. It's not meant to be a great novel

It's light reading and yeah the ending sucked.

However, it does introduce people to some of the history of the church that was not taught in school. So if it causes people to start asking questions about who and what the RC church is really all about, that's a good thing.

[jane_pippin]

37. Yep. It's just a mediocre thriller. A page turner, sure...

and a thriller with an interesting plot/topic/theme, but still mediocre.

But so what. I happen to agree with your assessment entirely, but if people like it they like it. What can you do? At least it's something of a fun read--finding out what happens next and that kind of thing. I mean, you have to plod through Dan Brown's writing style to do it, but I can see how doing so could be enjoyable in a way. I hated the thing and I still wanted to find out what happened next.

I'm glad you pointed out the, in my opinion, disappointing ending too. That the church "wins" in the end and that there is such an uproar about the book from the church confuses me too. For all the controversy you'd think the end would be really explosive, but no--back to normal, all is well.

Oh well. I just think everyone, myself included, would do well to keep in mind that it's just a serviceable thriller and it's not supposed to be a literary masterpiece. Treat it as fun beach reading or something to look at on an airplane and the blood pressure should get back to normal pretty quickly. At least, that perspective did it for me.

[acmavm]

41. Yep, the ending was pure suckage.

[Tesha]

108. How did it end?

(I ask because I don't really think *ANY* of us know
how the story ends; we only know the point at which
the telling of the story ends.)

Tesha

[acmavm]

176. I meant the end of the book. I smell a sequel here so who's to say

how it ends. Remember, they found... So I think logically the next step would be some kind of plot by the .... and try to control the heirs of the sacred bloodline.

[derby378]

48. Maybe they were laughing at Mary Magdalene's final resting place?

There's already a town in southern France that houses what is supposedly the tomb of Mary Magdalene. At present, the evidence is anectodal and traditional in nature - but the legends do date back to Imperial Roman times, from what researchers have been able to uncover.

[melm00se]

57. response to #3

Dan Brown's novels pander to the current mindset and attention span of the modern, TV influenced, reader. His chapters (regardless of which book) are quick, bang bang with a cliff hanger at the end of most chapters.

In addition, he writes all of his books with an eye to them being made into movies. All of his books (that I have read) have the reluctant hero, the beautiful and brainy side kick etc etc etc.

That is not to say they are bad stories, the sales and time spent on best seller's lists, suggest otherwis; they are popular. What they are not is "great literature". If I were to slot the book I would put it in the same category as upmarket pulp novels (Tom Clancy et al all sit in this same category).

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

88. YOU are critiquing someone else's writing?

That's rich! I shall be sure to keep up with the remainder of your writings.

sP

[ProdigalJunkMail]

91. particle physicist? at CERN?

oh man, yer kill'n me...stop...i kain't take much more

sP

[Richard Steele]

135. Dang, I missed that one! Late for the party again!

I saw that he was a Law student... and a Rabbi... and a language teacher
who was typing all this while driving his car...

But I missed the "particle physicist" claim, darn it!

That guy was a real hoot!

[Lerkfish]

142. maybe he was also an albino?

ya never know.

:)

[Richard Steele]

160. I wouldn't put it past him!

Heck, another 20 minutes and he probably would have been a superhero, too!

[treestar]

65. I agree, I didn't think much of the book as a mystery

It's one of those things where shock value is needed to sell the book.

[gauguin57]

66. Da Vinci was a fizzy little thriller. It's no literary masterpiece ... but

a real page-turner. I loved the way each chapter was written like a little cliffhanger. And some of the historical sleuthing was fun to follow (some of the answers I could see coming up Fifth Avenue the second I read the clues).

I stayed up till 6 a.m. for several days running reading that book. Couldn't put it down.

It's a beach book, people. FUN FICTION, with a bit of intellectual stimulation thrown in. I usually don't read what's at the top of the NYT bestseller list, but any book that talks about how women have been totally shut out of the deity sweepstakes (and the apostle sweepstakes) in major "modern" religion is gonna attract my attention. God God God, He He He, Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus ... WHERE's THE WIMMENS, PEOPLE? (and, yes, i know, Hinduism has goddesses).

And I'm gonna want to check out a book that points out what the holy rollers refuse to recognize ... that the writings of the bible have been so edited and chopped up by misogynstic popes over the centuries that it's impossible to view it as some direct dictation of the word of God. That idea is SO FREAKING THREATENING to so many people (and would shake the holy roller leader power base) ... it's like the plot of the DaVinci Code!

Now, the MOVIE on the other hand ... not nearly as bad as the critics said, but Tom Hanks DID sleepwalk through that movie. His approach to the part (or how he was directed by Ron Howard) was mystifying. Turned an interesting book into a mediocre movie.

[Arkansas Granny]

68. I read the book. I may or may not see the movie. The book was

a quick, easy, entertaining read. I've read better, I've read worse. I just don't understand why so many people are upset over this book.

[Maiden England]

69. What a wonderful celebration about people's differences

You hate the book, others myself included love the book. I'm sure neither side could understand the other's position, but thats just life. Thats why our differences make us an interesting group, rather than a dull conglomeration of freeper-esque types.

[Lerkfish]

95. "hate" is too strong a word. I just found it poorly written.

I'm not emotionally involved enough to hate it. I am just confused why its so popular and why the church or opus dei would be offended.

[Maiden England]

180. different strokes for different folks

I found the writing style highly engrossing, and a narrative that drew me in to the plot more fully. Whereas, for example, the writing of Anne Rice I find extremely poor, and difficult for me to follow, yet she is also extremely popular, so others must like her writing (my husband loves her books!).

I have no idea why the church would object so strongly. If anything it just gives the film extra publicity, so its not exactly an advantageous stance for the church to take.

[lectrobyte]

74. I'm with you, only I couldn't get past 50 pages or so. The writing is

just horrible.

[LynneSin]

86. Take 'The DaVinci Code' for what it is - Brain Candy

if you expect something more than this you'll be disappointed. My reading skills developed so quickly in school that in 4th grade they gave me Moby Dick and Ivanhoe to read since I was bored silly with the junk everyone else was reading at in 4th grade. And even today I most read books of higher reading skills but every once in awhile I'd rather find myself some brain candy especially if I'm flying on a plane or just need something to distract my mind.

I went into 'The DaVinci Code' for what it was - brain candy. An easy read and quick page turner and I was not disappointed.

[Lerkfish]

97. that's a very valid point. but, for that reason, I do not see why

opus dei is all worked up over brain candy.

:shrug:

[LynneSin]

101. But even you said that Opus Dei was cleared at the end

I think they are upset at how they were portrayed in both the book & movie. Plus that showing of Paul Betteny using the cilice & flogging in the movie was pretty gross; which this is a common practice done by some of the more devout Opus Dei members.

Considering how many copies of this book was sold along with how well the movie is doing, I could see what the Opus Dei is upset - not because it's brain candy but because they have become a part of Pop Culture.

[LostinVA]

168. Agreed n/t

[KyuzoGator]

87. I found DVC to be average. A predictable story with horrible dialogue. nt

[nancyr]

93. Tsk, tsk.

Why is everyone so irritated??? Just because some people actually enjoyed the book is no reason to call them stupid and illiterate. I found the book badly written and dull as dishwater and didn't even try to finish it, but that's only my opinion...that doesn't make me the "decider" of good literature. I think it's all a tempest in a teapot and there are more interesting things to get all heated up over. Lord, who cares?

[Lerkfish]

96. actually, I see the opposite happening.

:shrug:

[CornField]

103. The book was so popular because of its subject-writing combination

Name one other book, written at an 6th-8th grade level, which deals with such theological subject matter. For those who are not good readers and/or don't really read very often, this book was an eye-opening experience. Many had never heard the theories of Jesus being married and having a blood line. Many had no idea about Opus Dei or the Templars or, really, Da Vinci.

Some of my female friends who have gone their entire lives listening to male-dominated religious messages are feeling a bit 'freed' by this book. For the very first time, they have realized they have been sent to the back of the bus and they are starting to ask questions. On a personal note, it was worth reading the book with the rest of my book club just to watch how it affected the others.

When you think about it, Brown did what any good commercial author should: Figure out your target audience and write at their level.

[WinkyDink]

110. ITA---except Ludlum is EXACTLY the same lame-o superficial

thriller nonsense, with ridiculous plot twists, cartoon characters, and fake-out endings.

[Lerkfish]

112. but better crafted, which was my point.

I think if Ludlum had written it, I would not be complaining as much.
but your point is well taken.

[Bucky]

113. Opus Dei is exhonerated of the crime, but shown as reactionary & guilty

...guilty of a massive cover up of the true nature of the grail. I agree that the book was a littlc on the hacky side, but I found it a fun, if empty, read. Second rate with several unbelieveable characters and a few too many convenient plot twists. Not quite a dud, tho.

[Lerkfish]

140. I think I said "mediocre" rather than a dud, but still...

My point was that it wasn't "all that". I had people telling me I need to read it, etc.

but you make a good point re: the opus dei.

[anarch]

124. let's see here...

My answers:

1. Clearly Opus Dei is up to something...also they probably couldn't be bothered to finish the book.

2. That's not really a question, but yes that does sound lame.

3. It's called the "Lowest Common Denominator".

[SemiCharmedQuark]

136. The Wayne's World "Super Mega Happy Ending"? *spoilers*

Yes, that was incredibly lame. Also, since Sophie's parents were both descendants of Christ, wouldn't that make them...inbred?

Edited to put "spoilers" in title.

[Lerkfish]

138. plus...(spoiler)

if christ was not divine, and the "royal" part of the heritage no longer posesses a kingdom, the need to keep the line alive, if there is never an intent to reveal them, seems pointless.

Even if they out the bloodline, so what? its not like they inherit anything.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

143. Have you seen the movie? *spoilers*

They attempted to fix some of the more glaring defects.

Also, in the book, I HATED Sophie. Her grandfather is her ONLY family, they love each other so very much and then she abandons him forever because she sees him having sex with people watching (when she is in college). Throughout the book, they refer to what he had done, and the horrible thing he did to drive her away. I suspected it might be something like that, but I hoped they'd come up with something better. For the way she acted, he might as well have eaten a baby.

[Lerkfish]

147. no, haven't seen the movie. *spoiler*

which defects did they attempt to fix? I wouldn't know where to start, myself.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

157. *Spoiler* Well..

1. Sauniere was NOT her grandfather
2. He yelled at her and chased her away as a child, THAT is why they broke apart
3. Whereas in the book the common belief is that of COURSE the grail is Mary Magdeline, every idiot knows that, in the movie, only Teabing and a small segment of others know it. Langdon actually refers to it as a myth and challenges Teabing on it.
4. Her brother did die in a car accident
5. No mention of both her parents being descendents
6. The archbishop was very guilty
9. Langdon argues that it doesn't matter, Jesus was a great man
10. The object of kneeling at Mary Magdeline's grave becomes to say a prayer there for all oppressed people (instead of kneeling at the outcast one's, or whatever the book says)

Also, they attempted to make a more layered version of the story, instead of the flat plot.

They had a subplot that Feche was a member of opus dei and that the bishop had told him to catch the murderer Robert Langdon. Thus Feche had a motive for destroying evidence, etc. etc. etc.

[Bridget Burke]

148. There are two options for the Bloodline of Jesus....

After 2000 years, it's extremely diffuse.

Or it's extremely INBRED.

[Mr_Spock]

146. I enjoyed it a lot

I'm not going to try to argue with someone who is clearly superior to me intellectually in every way possible.

I'll just down a beer here and go about my redneck ways...

:beer:

[Lerkfish]

151. PLEASE point out where I disparaged the intelligence of those who liked it

my problem was with the work itself, and why its a bestseller.

honestly, I am beginning to think people just read what they wish to see.

[Mr_Spock]

153. I liked a "worse than mediocre" "piss-poor" "generic mystery novel"

I must be an idiot if I wasn't able to discern how awful the novel was.

"I don't get our society sometimes, I really don't."

Apparently I don't get it either. :(

I'm a literary moran. :(

[Lerkfish]

159. you're taking offense where none is delivered.

;shrug;

is criticising a work of art the same as criticisizing the audience? I personally don't think so, but if you want to walk away insulted on this one, you have no one to blame but yourself, and I might add, you're trying double-extra hard to be offended.

to the extent you wrongly feel insulted, I'm sorry you do. but that was not my intent.

[Lerkfish]

165. I guess your last comment before this one was sort of your last comment

:)

you know...where you said:

I love it when the reader is sure to hate it from word one.

Jealousy - best served over ice.

I've never seen such a childish anaysis in my entire life.

Some people just hate success.

First & last comment on this topic.

----odd, but you seem to take offense where none is intended and are blind to how you've offended others directly.

oh well, no accounting for taste

[Daphne08]

162. It wasn't Melville, Steinbeck or Faulkner, but I thought it was a

"fun" read, and I have a BA in English. Of course, I was raised and educated in the South, so... :crazy: ;)

People are taking The Da Vinci Code much too seriously... stirring up high drama for no reason.

[Lerkfish]

166. I think that's fine. I guess I felt the hype was out of proportion to real

If it had been hyped as "brain candy" or a guilty pleasure, or a tanning bed read, ok.
but with all the uproar and the bestseller status, I expected a great deal more.

[BooScout]

171. I liked it.....

It was just a book though. Not the 2nd coming.

Not everyone reads Tolstoy for 'fun' reading. Ya know?

[WHAT]

152. My thoughts, too...

I read it because it was hyped and I was really disappointed. I had to force myself to get to the end of it. The only good thing in reading it is that it gives you something in common to talk about with others who have read it. I can understand why some people might like it as entertainment...it lends itself to a kind of stilted, semi-intellectual posing. Anyway, some people I like have read it and pretend to like it...and that is fine.

"Imajica" was great! Clive Barker seems to have gone through a "drug" phase, or something. I read other books by him where the writing is choppy without being arresting...more like a word soup. I think something may have happened with him because I think he is really gifted.

[Lerkfish]

164. Imajica was a novel that stuck with me for several months after reading it

The closest one of his that did that also was "the great and secret show".
I think his short stories are excellent, but some of his other novels, especially "gallilee" did nothing for me, though.

for an unusual one by him, check out the "thief of always". what an excellently crafted small tale.

[The Stranger]

156. It is a bestseller because it is liberating people's minds from lies and

mythology that have been forced upon generations for millenia.

You have so totally fucking missed the importance of the work, that I wouldn't know where to start or how to help you.

Start all over. Maybe that will help.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

158. "liberating people's minds from lies"?

The whole priory was proven to be the work of a fraud.

I have no problem with discussion about history and it does pose an interesting point. Not earth shattering, the Jews and Muslims believe Jesus was only a man. But there's no point in replacing wrong information with wrong information.

[The Stranger]

170. If you think the point of the book was about the Priory of Sion,

then you must have read a different book.

The whole Church is based on mythology. This book is beginning the undoing of what had been forced upon people's minds for millenia.

[Bridget Burke]

173. That "undoing" has been going on for centuries....

But those works generally don't make it to the Bestseller List.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

175. I think you're giving the book far too much credit.

And again, what's the point of replacing one set of lies with another? I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it, except that people are walking around believing that there IS a Priory, and that Leonardo Da Vinci was part of it, etc. etc. etc.

If he really wanted to save people's minds, he would have written a book filled with facts. Tell the truth about the Church. He didn't need to dress it up. He chose to do that to sell books. The Church definitely took a massive chunk out of women's freedom. However, they weren't the first. The book paints a picture of a wonderful society where women were equal with men before the Church. That's not true. Women in ancient Rome weren't able to vote either.

People have been telling the truth about the Church for ages. He wasn't the first. He won't be the last.

[The Stranger]

179. Many never even realized that the Council of Nicea came up witht he canon,

over three hundred years after the fact.

They didn't even question this, despite the fact they have given a life's worth of savings to support the greatest lie in the history of civilization, until it came out in this really cool little movie.

Now they will question the lies and think for themselves. This isn't about "replacing one set of lies with another," but free thinking, critical analysis and evidence.

Stop supporting the reactionaries.

[Lerkfish]

161. there's no way short of torquemada inquisition I would read it AGAIN.

I understood the "importance", I don't need help there, thanks for offering so kindly, though.

[Jigarotta]

163. the writing IS horrible, ...

I haven't read it, just skimmed thru it a bit in a sale bin and immediate thought was (like others in this thread have said)
"What is this shit"? But I may just buy it for the 'pitchers' as I find the story intriguing after seeing the flick.

Ron Howard did some good saving I think. heh.

[Jara sang]

172. But what about all the symbolism???

Can't a novels premise rest on the fact that symbols are cool?:sarcasm:

[kskiska]

177. Grace Metalius and Jacqueline Susann were atrocious writers

and sold millions.

Vladamir Nabokov was a beautiful writer and sold millions…Gore Vidal is a good writer and his books have done well.

Different strokes for different folks. Be grateful that at least people are reading books.

[matcom]

181. oh kick

cause this is more than funny as hell

:kick:

[2bfree]

184. I enjoyed it.

It was a fun summer read. :)

[BoneDaddy]

186. SIMPLE ANSWER

The Davinci Code is a best seller not because it is a good book, it really isn't.
It is a best seller because it challenges the divinity of Christ and reveals the institutional domination of the Church who have perpatrated the biggest fraud that has occurred in human history.

[BoneDaddy]

187. SIMPLE ANSWER

Duplicate post