Me? I just don't think I could bring myself to shoot children in the head.

[Philosoraptor]

I don't know, maybe there's something wrong with me, I was never a soldier, so I'm probably not really qualified to say, but, I try to imagine myself in that situation, say if I was drafted or whatever, and I just can't seem to picture myself pointing a rifle at the heads of terrified children and mothers and pull the trigger, but then, like I said, maybe I just ain't wired right.

I've heard all the philosophical and psychological arguments about the things people do in combat, under heavy stress, and I still cannot conceive of ever having the presence of mind to look into their eyes, having kids myself, and tightening up my finger and snuffing them out like so many pigs in a slaughterhouse.

I don't know, maybe there's something wrong with me.

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. You say you are a human being?

Only a killer ape or a monster could do that, under any circumstances.

[Philosoraptor]

4. I'd hate to think of my son doing that.

Cause I didn't raise him to think that way, but who knows.

[LWolf]

64. You've just explained it.

Kids are taught to "think that way." Not that there is some possible reason to shoot children, but that war, battle, shooting other people, etc. is necessary to serve your country, and that, in war, anything goes for your side. That there is honor in killing.

As a teacher, I see kids who've been raised on this creed. It's hardwired into them. They can't see outside that box. I have a student this year: 14yo, strong, athletic rancher. He is well-mannered, gentle with all weaker than himself, and comfortable in his skin. Dependable, trustworthy, and the go-to guy for anything you want done quickly and efficiently. His favorite pasttime is hunting. Well beyond just getting meat for the table, he revels in the stalking and the killing. He hopes we're still fighting Iraq, or Iran, or somebody, when he's old enough to join up. He's been raised in a family that lives this creed.

I hope he is the first in his family to ever graduate from high school, and that he is exposed to some other povs from people he can still respect, as he grows into independent thought. Part of his family's culture, though, is to dismiss any differing pov as "those damned ignorant city liberals," and I don't know if he'll be able to get by that.

Would he shoot a child in the head? Not on his own. He sees himself as the protector of those weaker than he. Would he do so if ordered? Yes. He'd follow orders, and the conflict between all those different versions of "right" would destroy him.

[villager]

2. you and me both, pal...

another sad day -- one of a seemingly infinite supply under *'s "leadership" -- for the former U.S. of A....

[sharp_stick]

3. That's something I wondered too

I have no idea how you could snap enough that it would be possible to look a baby in the eyes and then blow her head off.

It just baffles me that some people are talking about this as though it's not that bad, you know bad apples and all that.

[Philosoraptor]

5. You watch though, repubs will defend the action cause, "we're at war"

Saddam attacked New York City, so anything goes.

[libhill]

49. The Federal Government attacked NYC -

Sadam / Osama my ass.

[uppityperson]

6. War is hell

Anyone who romanticizes war is not right in the head. Or else very ignorant. Heartbreaking.

[Philosoraptor]

7. If it were really a war, but it's just Wounded Knee all over Iraq.

Manifest Destiny y'know.

[uppityperson]

21. Yeah, putting people in these situations, very sad

Why must there continue to be such things, such inhumanity?

[malaise]

24. Bingo

nothing has changed.

[Jigarotta]

8. something wrong with me too, then.

if I were to think of doing something like that, I hope my buddies would put a bullet in my head first.

[driver8]

9. I'm sure that many people share that opinion of themselves.

I would like to think that, if you had asked most of those marines prior to Iraq, they would have said the same thing.

I am not defending their actions -- I am absolutely sickened by the stories that I have heard. However, who knows what people will do under the stress and strain that these men are under? Obviously something set these guys off.

Our government had better wake up and smell the coffee or there could be a lot more killings like this one. Not only that, but how are these men going to function when they come back from Iraq?

[kittenpants]

16. yes, it's easy for everyone to say that from here

Like you I'm not defending what happened AT ALL but I can't imagine what it must be like for a young person seeing so much death and not knowing who might be out to kill you. I think the soldiers that did this must have been crazy to some extent in order to do what they did, but most likely not 'evil' before they went to Iraq.

[Ksec]

10. "they snapped"

Oh really.

Thats as good an excuse as anyone could come up with, I suppose.

I imagine most child killers use that one though.

[Squatch]

11. These Marines' actions do not represent to the other

99.9% of honorable service members in our military.

[Critters2]

14. I've already heard plenty of vets justifying and supporting it

I'm not impressed with your 99.9 % either.


edited for typo

[kittenpants]

17. I don't think he's defending or justifying Haditha

just saying that most soldiers wouldn't want to shoot a child in the head either. That fact doesn't make what happened in Haditha any less horrible.

[gmaki]

12. You might believe that

and you might be right.

The problem is, the people who have done those kinds of things probably couldn't have imagined themselves doing it either.

Again, the point is not that you WOULD do it, it's that you just can't know. No one can TRULY know unless they've been there.

That's why we should not be there in the first place.

[Critters2]

13. I've seen what hog and chicken farmers do to living creatures

I've been on a slaughterhouse kill floor. If people believe they have society's permission and "a good reason" they can do the most horrific things. I hope it's not true of me, but I worry about it.

Nonetheless, people who do such things should be punished. As a culture, we need to maintain a moral compass.

[Recursion]

15. One thing to say it here

Another thing to say it when you've been 48 hours without sleep, 36 of them without food or water, and you've just finished scraping your friend's brains off your flak jacket, and pulling his bone fragments out of your exposed forearm, and you honestly don't know whether or not the people in the house you're breaking into are trying to kill you or not.

That's why Marines put discipline, cool-headedness, discipling, training, discipline, obedience, and once again discipline above everything else. Because nobody knows what they'll do in that situation, but if a unit has proper discipline, the unit as a whole, but particularly the NCOs and officers, can rein in the chaos.

There's a big difference: one guy snaps, shoots through the door and kills the person behind it. Tragic. Hopefully to be avoided. But, at that point the NCO on the scene needs to step in and restore order. That's the difference in a tragic accident and a f***ing massacre.

I say the same thing about this that I say about Abu Ghraib, only more emphatically because as a Marine I hold my fellow Marines to a higher standard. This is and can only be the commanding officer's fault. An officer who encouraged this is a murderer. An officer who did not encourage this but somehow let his troops get out of hand and do it anyways is something almost as dangerous: an incompetent officer who has lost the respect of his men.

[Philosoraptor]

19. No argument here.

Like I said, I am not even qualified to say. It's mere conjecture on my part.

[driver8]

43. Excellent post.

I feel the same way. It is easy to condemn these men while sitting at a computer. Do the job that they are doing for 3 tours and then see how you feel.

[U4ikLefty]

57. Do you offer the same latitude to the Iraquis whom rebel against

occupation? Many of them have seen their daughters, sons, mothers, fathers, lovers & friends get murdered by an occpying military. I could see either of the situations pushing me over the edge.

on edit: I can see that you are holding the commanding officer reposible...I retract my question.

[shadowknows69]

18. Not even if they were pointing a gun at me

I guess I'd just have to die.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

20. Could my son do this? When he came back from basic...

he made a few comments that made me cringe. They are taught to not think of them as humans.
When he was little, he would cry at the drop of a hat, especially if he saw someone else hurting. I never made fun of him, and didn't let anyone else either. To feel other's pain is important.

A few weeks back home (he's NG reserve, no orders THANK GOD!) and he was pretty much back to normal. It's been 5 months, he hangs with kids who hate this war, has a baby on the way (!!). I don't know what he would do if called up. He still wants to 'play soldier' but I have made sure he understands the implications of actually going over there and shooting PEOPLE.

[sandnsea]

52. Not going to Afghanistan?

A friend of ours in the Guard is going on his third tour, to Afghanistan this time, and leaves next week.

You know how they're saying that they're bringing all the Guard home?? Yeah, well that's because they're shifting the 10,000 from Afghanistan into Iraq. He was originally scheduled to go to Iraq, but they changed it to Afghanistan at the last minute to replace troops going into Iraq. I'd bet all the new guard deployments will be to Afghanistan, and most people won't notice. Clever, eh? :grr:

Glad your son is managing to stay home. The less there the better.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

60. I don't know what happened with his orders, but I don't care at this point

In December he was scheduled to leave for Afghanistan in April, by Jan. the orders were canceled. :)

I know they combined his company with another (heavy artillery), but that's all I know, except that he is still at home, working 40 hrs at Home Depot, waiting for the baby, and thanking whatever God he prays to that there are no new orders.

Sounds like they are shuffling them around. Sad that someone who has already been to Iraq doesn't get to come home. :( It's hard to be happy that Josh is still home, when someone else has to take his place. :cry:

[Junkdrawer]

22. Have you heard of the Stanford Prison Experiment?

http://www.prisonexp.org/

[Philosoraptor]

25. Sure. But I don't buy it as applied to myself personally.

I guess I really think very highly of myself or something, but I understand the famous study.

[Junkdrawer]

28. I remember seeing interviews of the guards. EVERYONE...

said "I would have NEVER thought of myself as capable of..."

[genieroze]

23. I guess Manson snapped too. Nothing wrong with you at all.

[Ian David]

26. See: The Milgram Experiment

Milgram experiment
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Milgram experiment (Obedience to Authority Study) was a famous scientific experiment of social psychology. The experiment was first described by Stanley Milgram, a psychologist at Yale University, in an article titled Behavioral Study of Obedience. The article was published in the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology in 1963 and later discussed at book length in his 1974 Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View. It was intended to measure the willingness of a participant to obey an authority who instructs the participant to do something that may conflict with the participant's personal conscience.

The experiments began in July 1961, a year after the trial of Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised the experiment to answer the question "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?" (Milgram, 1974)


Milgram summed up in the article "The Perils of Obedience" (Milgram, 1974), writing:

"The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous import, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects' strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects' ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation."



The experimenter (E) persuades the participant (S) to give what the participant believes are painful electric shocks to another participant (A), who is actually an actor. Many participants continued to give shocks despite pleas for mercy from the actor.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

See also

* Asch conformity experiments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments

* Stanford prison experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Film

* Obedience, Black-and-white film of the experiment, shot by Milgram. Distributed by The Pennsylvania State University Media Sales
http://soar.ois.psu.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/SOAR.woa/wa/keywordSearch?keyword=Stanley%20Milgram

* The Milgram Reenactment, 2002. Color, Exact re-enactment of one condition of the obedience experiment. Created by conceptual UK artist Rod Dickinson.
http://www.milgramreenactment.org/

[Philosoraptor]

29. No offense, but, I don't think these "studies" prove that I'd shoot a kid.

But I do get the point of the studies.

[Ian David]

62. I didn't mean to imply that you, personally would shoot a kid. n/t

[liberalmuse]

27. You are a monster!

Actually, a lot of us understand the situation our soldiers have been put in by Bush, inc., which is ripe for atrocities like this to occur. Even so, many soldiers do not purposely slaughter unarmed civilians. If you do not believe you would slaughter unarmed civilians, and if you have honor and character, and if you are not prone to demonize the 'other', even being in the depths of hell wouldn't cause you to commit such a despicable act. There were two soldiers ordered to photograph the scene who were traumatized by what their fellow soldiers had done. The soldiers who participated in this act should suffer the consequences.

Although this war should have never happened, and it is the responsibility of the American people to ensure our troops are never put in harm's way needlessly, it in no way excuses what these people did. There is no justification for it, although I'm sure some on the right will find some. We'll have to wait for the outrage, though. It didn't come with proof that the war was started under false pretenses. It didn't come when the torture came to light, and it's unlikely to come with this massacre. There are those on the right who will demonize the victims and anyone who wants an investigation. They'll find some way to make this war crime yet another acceptable slide into the rapidly growing cess pool called, 'Bush's America'.

[puerco-bellies]

30. I think incidents like this are likely in a war zone.

Has the environment becomes hostile and death becomes common, a kind of them against us mentality tends to arise. When the enemy is invisible due to it arising from, and dispersing back in to the general population, the enemy then becomes all of "them" and in war killing them is what it's all about.

It is the leadership, from the top down to squad level that becomes both the moral has well as the practical command. It is the moral breakdown of that leadership that lends itself to this kind of behavior. It is proactive leadership that prevents this kind of base behavior, and Abu Gharib signaled where the "combat culture" was headed. To me this is no surprise.

[SmokingJacket]

31. I bet a lot of them couldn't imagine it either.

What they are going through is unimaginable.

Ya never know WHAT you might do...

[BlueJazz]

32. You obviously have not read the post about Atheists.

Myself, being one, would have no problem doing any Foul deed if it meant
glory for the Atheist Religion.

[Critters2]

34. ?

Atheist religion?



:wtf:

[BlueJazz]

48. I'm kidding..I'm Kidding. There was a post with the subject being

..the fact that most Americans view Atheists as some form of "Low-Life"
and are persons without any Conscience or morals. :)

[Critters2]

58. Thanks

I was deeply confused.

[Junkdrawer]

33. BTW: You've just described why the suicide rate of Iraqi vets...

is high and growing higher. Once back, THEY cannot believe (or accept) what they did.

[sproutster]

35. Your disconnect from humanity... No WAY could I do it.

[Philosoraptor]

36. AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

[SPKrazy]

37. What If Children Were Blowing You Up? Or Shooting You?

I still couldn't do it I don't think

but some obviously could

and I don't know that there's any evidence that the children were doing anything like shooting or blowing people up?

at any rate, I think that it is a war crime, the soldiers and their commanders should pay.

The Bushies that took us into this illegal war should pay.

[sproutster]

38. Oh please! Sooo... Let's go review the movie we saw this winter

The children at the side of the road throwing rocks.

"Let the fuckers starve!"

"Man I wish I could blow them away"

You know those kids under 7 (four of them) were most probably suiciders of the nth degree. Yea, what does it take to fucking blow away a 3 year old.

Rationalize and justify. They are inhumane, they are animals.

[Disturbed]

40. It doesn't seem to have been a rampage,

These troops made all the people get on their knees then executed them. It seems methodical. I also read that photos were taken. I am curious as to what the Defense Lawyers will put forth.

[SPKrazy]

68. You didn't Read My Post,

I'm with you on this man

I don't know all the facts

but they are war criminals

[AutumnMist]

39. You Know

My husband and I have many liberal soldier friends who never did those things. The soldiers who do it? I blame our government who has convinced so many men and women that all people who are in a foreign land are worth killing. Because they aren't "American" enough. Many soldiers aren't able to get out of the military spiral that they are in. Not all soldiers kill and do the wrong thing, but some do terrible things. I don't have disrespect for all soldiers. Many sign up to take care of families and friends. Some sign up to do what they have always been told is "patriotic" or "american" . Either way all soldiers face horrific trials that I cannot imagine. I wish it would stop. May they all come home soon. Bush has really taken our best and twisted youth into numbers for the military. For shame.

[Hubert Flottz]

41. You need to get with the Program Gawd Damn It!

If Uncle Sugar sez shoot, you Will shoot...and you Will like it...is that Understood? NOW...Move Out Smartly and Execute...By the Freakin' Numbers...Young Man!

Things that make you wonder...even when you aren't getting paid to do so...

MOVING TARGETS
Will the counter-insurgency plan in Iraq repeat the mistakes of Vietnam?

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/031215fa_fact

A lot of folks don't understand what total control the government REALLY has over a soldier's young ASS!

[jpevahouse]

42. Human beings

Peer pressure and a license to kill can be a powerful incentive. Killing and harming little children for me is the ultimate crime. The marine that killed the children should get the death penalty and if they could bring him back to life do it again. No compromise, dont harm little children, end of story.

[Ksec]

44. ditto

No excuses for killing children. None.

I dont give a flying fuk what any shrink has to say about war and its effects on people. You murder children and you crossed a line that can never be crossed.

[Boomer]

53. You are confusing understanding with condoning

>> I dont give a flying fuk what any shrink has to say about war and its effects on people. <<

It's possible to understand why people lose control and commit atrocities without condoning those actions.

If anything, it's imperative to identify the factors -- such as certain kinds of stress under combat situations -- that cause these events so that protocols can be developed to keep them from happening in the future.

Just dismissing these men as "monsters" -- much as people have dismissed Nazis as unspeakable evil -- allows us all to avoid the uncomfortable truth that ordinary people can commit unspeakable horrors.

[Critters2]

59. War is the factor that caused it

I'm all for keeping that from happening in the future.

In the meantime, these monsters should be locked away so far back they have to pipe in sunlight, for the rest of their lives.

[marions ghost]

45. nothing wrong with you

something wrong with them

This kind of combat makes people insane. After awhile they lose humanity. They become monsters capable of anything.

In extreme situations, anyone can lose their minds...anyone. I feel sorry for these marines. They are dead too.

[libhill]

51. What sickens me

is that there is no reason to be in Iraq, no reason for any of this. Iraq did not attack America on 9/11. It's questionable whether any Muslims had any thing at all to do with it. All of this needless killing is predicated on a god damned pack of lies.

[dysfunctional press]

46. why do you hate america...?

they were killing them now, so we don't have to kill them later- when they grow up to be terra-ists.
consider it pre-emptive warfare, on a micro-managed level.

[dysfunctional press]

47. when the Day of the Dead becomes a reality...

NO WAY am i putting you on perimeter duty..

[survivor999]

50. That's how those kids must have looked

in the eyes of the soldiers who lost their mind that day. I think.

[upi402]

54. "I just don't think I could bring myself to shoot children" in my current

state of mind.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. Based on what I've read about Japanese atrocities in WWII, it can be

a process of gradual desensitization.

The Japanese military made a decision not to supply the troops in China and directed them to "live off the land." In a densely populated country like China, this meant raiding farms. Naturally, the Chinese objected, and soldiers began shooting those who resisted having their food supplies raided and their animals stolen. Soon the Japanese soldiers were routinely killing peasant families before even trying to loot their farms.

Then those groups of young men with weaponry realized that they could rape any Chinese woman they wanted and get away with it. The next step was killing the women who fought back or became hysterical. Then murder after rape became the norm.

As the Japanese progressed across China, they began killing and raping on slighter and slighter pretexts. Even before they reached Nanjing, site of the notorious massacre, killing, raping, and looting were just part of a day's work, and the soldiers soon became so jaded that torture of victims and grisly ways of killing them seemed "necessary" to add a little "interest" to the proceedings.

[mmonk]

56. Something is wrong with me too.

Heck, I couldn't even attack a country that posed no threat and had no will or capacity to attack us. I would have gone to Afghanistan though, even knowing about the pipeline. Getting rid of a terrorist training camp is fine by me, even if the CIA had backed them at one time.

[Raine]

61. Me either but

then I'm the kind of person who can't kill spiders and doesn't eat meat. I could never be a soldier.

[LostinVA]

63. Not every soldier can/would do this

People on this thread saying, "It's easy to say this ehre..." are wrong. Not everyone at My Lai slaughtered villagers. Some refused to act. Some were heroes and tried to save lives. Not every Nazi soldier could shoot women or dash babies' brains out. etc. Saying so affronts, imo, every decent man and woman who has ever worn a uniform of any country... and is giving too much of an "out" to those who perform these despicable acts. I would NEVER excuse an SS soldier for murdering Jewish children. I will never excuse US Marines for slaughtering Iraqi innocents.

There certainly are shades of grey in combat, and after combat... but stress and sleep deprivation are not a free pass. That's way too easy. Allowing this is no different than dismissing the slaughters of any people in any country (Rwanda, Bosnia, etc.) as "it's easy to say here..."

[marions ghost]

65. no one is dismissing slaughter

or allowing anyone a "free pass." The marines should be tried for war crimes. Without some effort this incident would have been covered up like the administration tried to do with Abu Ghraib. That would be
giving them a free pass.

But the marines also need treatment and maybe an oz of compassion. Those who did this are as destroyed as those they killed. They are insane. Paranoia, PTSD, stress, drugs, combat fatigue, psychosis. There is no good way to screen for those who would not commit despicable acts under such extreme conditions. I say that anytime you train a large number of people to kill for a living this can happen. These soldiers are literally taught to objectify a whole group of people, to "otherize" them completely so that they can be killed. They are rewarded for efficiency as they train to become killing machines. What we call 'deviant behavior' within the soldier role always occurs in wars, and especially when the soldiers are in the type of combat in which the enemy mixes with the non-combatant population as in Vietnam. Obviously the Iraq War is not a war in the defensive sense--it is another endless occupation like Vietnam. Selective killing can become random killing when theoretically everyone is out to get you.

I'm just saying --war crimes are something we as a country have to 'own'-- a large part of this country chose to jump into this insane war, believed the argument that getting rid of Saddam was 'spreading democracy...' This incident is just one of the nasty consequences of a failed policy based on lies. It also reflects the current resistance to cutting our losses and getting out, leaving soldiers demoralized.

So I think we shouldn't villainize the insane marines so much as we should castigate our insane leaders and call them on the carpet for their crimes in perpetrating this carnage.

War is so stupid. It never works.

[LostinVA]

66. I don't see them as insane

We'll have to agree to disagree on this topic, I guess.

[MilesColtrane]

67. Incidents like this have happened in every war since the beginning of time

It's a part of war, and all the more reason that there should never be a war of choice, or a preemptive war.
Mai Li, No Gun Ri...
Sickening as it is, we've got to acknowledge that it's human nature to seek revenge against a perceived enemy, and that soldiers, in order to do their job, block out any empathy towards other humans.
When you think that you could never do it you are turning a blind eye to history.
Face it, as a species, humans suck ass.