Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

John Bolton: A Rook in the Plame Scandal

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 04:34 PM
Original message
John Bolton: A Rook in the Plame Scandal


In my last essay, I noted that the members of the Bush administration that belonged to the Office of the Vice President and the White House Iraq Group could be viewed as players on a chess board. Karl Rove, "Scooter" Libby, and VP Dick Cheney are the most obvious pieces on the board, but they are not the only ones we should be watching. I thought that today, we might look at John Bolton.

It's hard to keep track of all of the players, if we reply exclusively upon the corporate media. There are times those sources provide contradictory, and even inaccurate, information. More, as I have mentioned several times since April, the OVP/WHIG has been engaged in a disinformation/smear campaign that can cause confusion for the general public. Let's look at just one example.

One of the best journalists in the corporate media, in terms of the Plame scandal, is MSNBC's David Shuster. His reports on Hardball and Countdown have provided the public with some of the most accurate information on the Plame scandal. Because of the hard-hitting nature of his reporting, he has become one of the least favorite reporters among Dick Cheney's circle of friends. As a result, the republican jackals try to discredit our friend David.

Can we combine these two issues? Let's consider the example of David's reporting on July 21, 2005 on the nomination of Mr. Bolton to serve as US Ambassador to the United Nations. Even in the context of the neoconservatives in the Bush administration, Bolton was noted for having a highly toxic personality that is ill-suited for that position. But Shuster wasn't focused on personalities; he reported that John Bolton had been questioned about his connection to the infamous State Department memo that was sent to Secretary of State Colin Powell on Air Force 1 in July, '03.

This was significant, because Bolton had not listed this on the questionnaire he had filled out for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Shortly after Shuster's report was aired, an official from the Rice State Department denied it. Senator Joseph Biden wrote to Rice, requesting that she encourage Mr. Bolton to provide an explanation.

State Department spokesperson Sean McCormack told reporters, "Mr. Bolton, as part of the nomination process, supplied an answer to the question" about if he had been interviewed as part of any investigation. "Mr. Bolton, in his response on the written paperwork, was to say 'no.' And that answer is truthful then and it remains the case now."

The corporate media failed to nail the truth down. But the internet journalists I admire sure as heck did. Steven Clemons, of The Washington Note, noted on 7-25-05 that while CNN hadn't responded to TWN questions on the White House denial, MSNBC reported to TWN that their source on Bolton's being questioned was "unimpeachable."

Arianna Huffington had a report ("Plamegate: The John Bolton Connection") that noted Bolton's former chief of staff, Fred Fleitz, was "at least one of the sources" of the information on Valerie Plame that "flowed through the Bush administration..." She also noted that Bolton had a history of providing information to Judith Miller.

On July 29, 2005, Fox News reported that a "corrected version" of the SFRC questionnaire had been sent to Capitol Hill. Spokesperson Sean McCormick noted that Bolton had indeed answered it "truthfully and accurately" the first time. "Mr. Bolton certainly wishes he hadn't had to resubmit the form but he would characterize it as an honest lapse in memory." Hmmm, that sounds a lot like Karl Rove explaining why his truthful and accurate story to the Plame grand jury had to be updated. Both Rove and Libby have experienced those exact same "honest lapse in memory" on the details of their involvement in the scandal.

I had mentioned in my last essay that Woodward & Bernstein had experienced a problem in reporting on the Watergate scandal, which resulted in people like Spiro Agnew and Bob Dole complaining that the Washington Post had violated the moral laws of the universe. I thought it would be interesting to see what Mr. Woodward had reported about John Bolton in his two pep-rally books about the Bush administration, "Bush At War" and "Plan of Attack." I was shocked to find that in a combined total of 843 pages, Woodward only mentioned Bolton once.

On page 160 of "Bush At War," he wrote, "John R. Bolton, the undersecretary of state for arms control and international security, was dealing with the Uzbeks." Woodward noted that VP Cheney used this information as "a shot at Powell," in part of the larger power struggle going on within the White House. It didn't seem like a lot of information from Bob Woodward, but then again, he came up in the Plame investigation for being a little less than truthful and accurate in his reporting on the Plame scandal. Probably one of those honest lapse in memory we hear so much about these days.

Next, I thought we should look to Carl Bernstein, who unlike Woodward seems a decent and honorable man. I looked at his recent article "Senate Hearings on Bush, Now," from Vanity Fair. He wrote, "The first fundamental question that needs to be answered by and about the president, the vice president, and their political and national-security aides, from Donald Rumsfeld to Condoleezza Rice, to Karl Rove, to Michael Chertoff, to Colin Powell, to George Tenet, to Paul Wolfowitz, to Andrew Card (and a dozen others), is whether lying, disinformation, misinformation, and manipulation of information have been a basic matter of policy -- used to overwhelm dissent; to hide troublesome truths and inconvenient data from the press, public, and Congress; and to defend the president and his actions when he and they have gone awry or utterly failed."

Bernstein advocates having the Senate ask Colin Powell tough questions about how this country was brought to war in Iraq. Carl notes that there was friction between VP Cheney & Co., and Powell and his friends Dick Armitage and Larry Wilkerson.

Patrick Buchanan knows a thing or two about using the power of the White House to manipulate the media. I looked in his book "Where the Right went Wrong" to see what he had to say about Bolton. He lists Bolton as one of "a clique of foreign policy specialists, academics, and writers who see U.S. and Israeli interests as identical." He notes that Bolton was one of the people signing the PNAC letter to President Clinton urging him to make the overthrow of Saddam the center of US foreign policy. Buchanan writes that Bolton, along with Wolfowitz, Libby, Feith and Wurmser helped VP Cheney build the case for invading Iraq; in fact, he quotes a foreign paper that told that Bolton told Israeli officials he had "no doubts" the US was preparing to invade Iraq in February, 2003. (See pages 44-46) Seymour Hersch also noted on page 346 of "Chain of Command" that Israeli intelligence was using Bolton to funnel information on Iranian weapons programs to the White House.

The WHIG carried out the VP's media operations. But Dick Cheney and his friend Donald Rumsfeld also had intelligence operations. The best known was the Office of Special Plans, which operated out of the Pentagon. But, according to Joseph Wilson's book (page 432), John Bolton ran a closely related operation while he worked at the State Department. How might this relate to the Plame scandal?

In "Chain of Command," Seymour Hersch writes about the OSP bypassing the normal checks and balances of the intelligence community. He describes how Colin Powell had attempted to provide daily intelligence briefs from the more structured Bureau of Intelligence & Research (INR) for people including Bolton. Greg Thielmann provided the daily briefings for Bolton; however, Thielmann found that Bolton "seemed troubled because INR was not telling him what he wanted to hear." Soon, Thielmann was refused entry to Bolton's morning staff meetings, because "the Undersecretary wants to keep this in the family."

Bolton had demanded sensitive intelligence not normally provided to people in his position. This is because the CIA and INR usually would analyze the "raw intelligence," and provide it in proper context for others. Bolton was demanding the raw intelligence.

An example of the confusion that can result when raw intelligence is taken out of context would be found in VP Dick Cheney seeing a report that claimed Iraq had attempted to buy yellow cake uranium from Niger. Cheney brought this topic up during one of his daily CIA briefings. Two days later, the CI briefer informed him there was nothing to the report. Cheney, according to Hersch, requested the Agency look into the report further.

What kinds of things were so sensitive that Mr. Bolton would not want Mr. Thielmann to know about them? What “family secrets” was he intent on keeping hidden? One possibility is found in James Moore’s October 21, 2005 article from TomPaine.Common sense, “Fitzgerald’s Historic Opportunity,” in which he writes that “Fitzgerald has reportedly asked for a copy of the Italian government’s investigation into the break-in of the Niger embassy in Rome and the source of the forged documents.” Moore tells of how the notorious Niger forgeries turned up after a December 2001 meeting in Rome of Michael Ledeen, Larry Franklin, Harold Rhodes and Niccolo Pollari, the head of Italy’s intelligence agency. This meeting, and indeed this group of people, is at the nexus of the Niger documents and the neocon/AIPAC spy scandals, both closely related to the Plame scandal.

We know from “The Politics of Truth” that when the State Department produced a “fact sheet” in late 2002, to outline concerns about WMD programs in Iraq, that Bolton slipped in a reference to the Niger yellow cake. Another official caught the reference, and knowing that it was not considered true, removed it from the document. In March, 2005, Rep. Henry Waxman requested that the chairman of a House subcommittee on national security examine why Bolton’s role in putting the bogus Niger-Iraqi “connection” into the State Department fact sheet, and why Bolton’s role had been concealed.

A short time after Bolton pushed to have the yellow cake lies included in the fact sheet, President Bush delivered his infamous “16 words” in his State of the Union address. When the US claims were questioned in the international community, Colin Powell was told to deliver a speech at the UN similar to UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson’s during the 1962 Cuban missile crisis. He was pressured by, among others, VP Cheney and Scooter Libby to include information he did not believe.

In “Plan of Attack,” Woodward details how, in researching the speech, Powell went to CI headquarters on Saturday, February 1, 2003. He found information that troubled him. The next day, he convinced his friend Dick Armitage to go to the Agency to review it with him. Powell did not mention the Niger yellow cake lies in his UN address.

After Wilson exposed the OVP/WHIG in his NY Times op-ed, Bolton began saying that WMD wasn’t “really the issue” that brought the US to war in Iraq. In his September 14, 2003 op-ed in the San Jose Mercury Times, Wilson exposed Bolton for this twisting of fact.

Still, by and large, Bolton and the others who were responsible for pushing the forged Niger documents, and lying to the American people about the reasons this country invaded Iraq, have been rewarded. Bolton is surely the last man in the United States who should be representing our nation in the United Nations.

I think that David Shuster would do well to give the American public an update on Mr. Bolton’s role in all of this. He is one of the few journalists who is willing to expose the extent the OVP was involved in this scandal. In the mean time, the public does well to keep up to date on the various internet sites that report on the Plame, the Niger forgeries, and the neocon/AIPAC spy scandals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bolton in the U.N. - I still can't get over that.
I will be happy to see how many of these players are taken down in the end. They are a complicated web of filthy little thieves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Bolton in the UN .....
...that needs to come to an end in 2007.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Yes... They are Connected and That's Their Biggest Weakness
We need to win this upcoming election... HAVE TO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. When he visited J. Miller in jail..
What do you think they talked about?
Also, I remember during his confirmation hearings, his requests for personnel info (re:intel info,CIA) were asked for, and never received.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yes, he visited her twice, I think ~ I too wonder what Judy knows and
why Bolton felt the need to talk to her while she was in jail. You don't get the impression that he is the type whose human comassion caused him to visit a member of the press in prison.

I remember the hearings for his nomination also. There was a fierce battle to try to get documents that would show what he had been interested in when, supposedly, he had made inquiries about certain people at the State Dept. (I think it was the State Dept.). Condoleeza Rice ordered the Dept not to release the papers. I actually thought he would not be nominated until the issue was resolved. The hearings ended and Bush used the recess to nominate him without Senate confirmation. Shouldn't this come up again?

I wondered back then if it was Bolton who had discovered the information on Valerie Plame. Or on Brewster Jennings. His excuse for his inquiries, I remember was that he wanted to send holiday greetings to them, or some such nonsense.

H2OMan mentioned Greg Thielman, which reminded me that one of his co-workers supposedly committed suicide in Nov. 2003 by jumping out of a window at the State Dept. I forget his name now, but he was one of two 'suicides' of people who had spoken out against the lies that led to this war, the other happened at the Watergate complex.

I think Bolton is very involved in this scandal. You rarely hear his name mentioned though, so thank you for this essay, H2OMan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks Catrina for all of those horrific memory jogs of Bolton! How I
wish he would bolt out of the window!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
33. You're welcome, WBASara ~ The name of that man was John J. Kokal ~
And he wasn't the only one to commit suicide in 2003. Another was Gus Weiss, also an outspoken critic of this administration's pre-war intelligence. It's sad that only the good guys seem to commit 'suicide' while the bad guys remain healthy!

Here's a little information on them. I wonder why more was not made of these two suspicious deaths, especially since the Plame investigation was going on at the time and both were critics of the administration. This article doesn't make the connection to Greg Thielmann, but I have read it elsewhere. I wonder what he thinks of the suicide of his colleague?

Mystery Surrounds Death of State Dept. Official

In a case eerily reminiscent of the death of British Ministry of Defense bio-weapons expert, Dr. David Kelly, an official of the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research Near East and South Asian division (INR/NESA), John J. Kokal, 58, was found dead in the late afternoon of November 7. Police indicated he may have jumped from the roof of the State Department. Kokal's body was found at the bottom of a 20 foot window well, 8 floors below the roof of the State Department headquarters near the 23rd and D Street location. Kokal's death was briefly mentioned in a FOX News website story on November 8 but has been virtually overlooked by the major media....

Kokal's INR bureau was at the forefront of confronting claims that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. Washington police have not ruled out homicide as the cause of his death. Kokal was not wearing either a jacket or shoes when his body was found. He lived in Arlington, Virginia....


And the second 'suicide' in Nov. of 2003:

Gus Weiss, 2003: "jumped from building"

Gus Weiss, a Nashville native who advised four presidents, served on the National Security Council for 16 years and won numerous awards for his foreign policy and intelligence-gathering skills, has died. He was 72. Friends of Mr. Weiss expressed shock at his death....

"He was wired into the intelligence community, and there were a lot of mystical secrets we weren't privy to," said Harris Gilbert, a Nashville attorney who had been friends with Mr. Weiss since childhood. "He was very interested in diplomatic strategy and was very, very opposed to the Iraq war. It was the first military action he ever opposed, but he believed we shouldn't go to war in the Middle East without knowing what we were getting into."


http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/suicide-dont-fall-for-it.html







Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. I always think it
is good to keep a close eye on those people who usually fly under the radar. Sometimes they play a larger, more significant role than those people who are far better known. A good example is Scooter Libby. In the James Moore article that I mentioned, he concentrates on Karl Rove's role. Of course, he has followed Rove closely for years. But in terms of the Iraqi war, Rove's role was minor compared to Libby's. This doesn't mean that Rove should not be indicted and tried for his crimes in the Plame scandal -- clearly, he should. But in terms of the plans to invade Iraq, and the lies that brought the country to war, Rove's role is minor compared to either Bolton or Libby.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Yes, I agree, Rove is really not as important a figure as several of the
Edited on Tue May-30-06 11:39 PM by Catrina
others involved, but not generally known publicly. I came across this timeline related to the Pentagon Spy Case and it's incredible to look at the names, going back to 1970, who were previously fired or resigned after being being investigated for passing classified material to Israel. You would think that anyone with such a stain on their record would not be given high security clearance ever again in this government. But they have been.

Here's a list of those previously under a cloud for mishandling classified information hired by the Bush administration. The link below gives the dates of when these people were investigated and/or fired or had their security clearances removed:

Richard Perle
Paul Wolfowitz
Stephen Bryen
Michael Ledeen
Douglas Feith
Harold Rhode
Michael Maloof (in May, 2003)

Bolton again, is mentioned only briefly in this timeline. I find it stunning that Congress has not even challenged these appointments. Not to mention, Ghorbanifur a close friend of Ledeen, Elliot Abrams and Poindexter. It's as though these plotters, many who were involved in Iraq Contra also, never stopped or gave up on their goal of using the US to accomplish goals that were not in the best interests of this country, but nobody stopped them. Why?

It looks like having all those untrustworthy individuals in top government positions did result in the leaking of Iraq war plans.

July 21, 2002: At a press conference, referring to a report that top secret war plans for Iraq had been leaked, Donald Rumsfeld says “It’s inexcusable, and they ought to be in jail.” In a memo circulated at the Pentagon, Rumsfeld condemns the improper disclosure of classified information and encourages staff members to put an end to the practice. “I have spoken publicly and privately, countless times, about the danger of leaking classified information,” he writes. “It is wrong. It is against the law.” It is suspected that the FBI begins a probe at this time into who leaked the information.

http://litbmueller.blogspot.com/2005/05/lawrence-franklin-case-possible.html

I like the fact that you compared Bolton to a rook, H2OMan ~ it's a pretty powerful piece in the game of chess and really describes him very well. He always seems to be in places where he could best facilitate the other players ~ I wonder what Fitzgerald knows about him.

He seems to be a very unstable individual ~ his wife's account of her life with him, if true, paints a picture of a very strange, even psychotic individual. And that was backed up by accounts of others who worked under him, so I tend to believe his wife. These people all seem to have mental problems.

What is hard to imagine is how Bush or Rove or even Hadley (who did try to stop Ledeen's activities in Rome) relate to these people. Cheney obviously does, but the Bush faction seems removed from these neocons to me. But I may be wrong ~

Arianna Huffington had a report ("Plamegate: The John Bolton Connection") that noted Bolton's former chief of staff, Fred Fleitz, was "at least one of the sources" of the information on Valerie Plame that "flowed through the Bush administration..." She also noted that Bolton had a history of providing information to Judith Miller.

So maybe Bolton was warning Judy that she would be wise not to reveal any conversations she had with him. I have to say, I always thought he was the one who got the information on Valerie Plame and that that was what he was trying to hide from the Senate committee, but it seems he was not.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
50. H2O Man, did NSA's pre 9-11 policy shifts include
Edited on Wed May-31-06 09:55 AM by EVDebs
going after Dana Priest, a UC Santa Cruz alumni, who happens to write for the WashPost about national security issues and MIA WMDs...

could this be why Bushco went after her and her school ? Also, WHO gets to choose the targets in this TALON programme ? Seems like only conservative NSAers or DODers get to head up these lawbreaking units.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
44. Don't forget Kelly when you start looking at suspicious suicides
He's not directly involved in the Plame affair, but he did speak out about faulty intelligence being used in Great Britain and just happened to "kill himself" in the week following Bob Novak's first Plame article was published.

There is the email from Judith Miller that ties him in as well as well.

Some Brit MP's are trying to open a new inquiry into Kelly's death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. Yes, he is mentioned in the link I included in my post #33 ~ I do hope
they re-open that investigation. Not too many people believe his death was a suicide. The date of his death is also very coincidental. It was in July of 2003, as I recall, around the time of Novak's first article and the AF1 flight to Africa where the NIE memo was being passed around.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I think his mere presence there was intimidation enough. He didn't
have to say anything - the look in his mad eyes was enough to deliver the message that Miller's silence was required and the consequences of her daring to tell the truth would be dire.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. You mean like this look?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Yep. The guy is utterly mad.


Libby talking about the aspens having the same roots is so gentle compared to one glare from screw-loose Bolton. I recall the quite believable, multiply corraborated horror stories of his past behavior during his confirmation hearings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. I am sorry to say
I am starting to tire...

Bolton - oh my gosh - what an SOB

Sorry for the language - but he is especially obscene!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. Lapses of memory, ongoing investigations and classified material...
all excuses for outright lying and/or evasion of the truth! How can we get Shuster and Bernstein to update us on Mr. Bolton's role? He is an original PNAC member, right? AIPAC? Do you know?

Excellent as usual, H2O Man. K & R & bookmarked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. Some more on Ledeen - advisor to Rove



Rogue Independent Media Center, Jan 2005

"Karl Rove's only full-time foreign-policy advisor is Michael Ledeen, a rabid anti-Arab, pro-Israel activist. The FBI is investigating Ledeen for procuring forged documents (shown here) on nonexistent WMD, which George Bush used to justify his war on Iraq. When Joseph Wilson exposed the farce, Rove helped "out" Wilson's CIA wife. Did Ledeen procure the documents for Rove, and how might he have done that? The story includes multinational stool pigeon Rocco Martino, Italian spy Francesco Pazienza, wanted CIA spy Robert Seldon Lady, and Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin, who's under charges of giving US secrets to Israel."

http://rogueimc.org/en/2005/08/5080.shtml


Ledeen - National Review - Jan 2006
In short, both demography and geopolitics make this an age of revolution, as President Bush seems to have understood. Rarely have there been so many opportunities for the advance of freedom, and rarely have the hard facts of life and death been so favorable to the spread of democratic revolution.


http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200601090808.asp
 Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pierre Trudeau Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. that photo explains a lot...

Clearly Ledeen is under the sway of the baby witch doctor whispering in his ear.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
35. I wonder if the new Italian giovernment might be willing to shake
the truth loose? As long as Bersculoni was minding the store, I figured the truth of the forged papers would never see the light of day. But this new government seems less inclined to play by the neocon script. Perhaps we will finally find out who the real forgerers are....and I'm betting it will be people directly connected to this administration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. And then there's Bolton's reported use of NSA intercepts to track
and undermine Powell's actions that may have made a diplomatic solution possible.

He was spying on his boss, and furthering Cheney's agenda.

Bad employee.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. And Who Else?
Wilson? Members of Congress? Mohammed Elbaradei? Anyone who didn't agree with or fall in line with the neo-con's plans? And we have his pal Wolfowitz destroying the World Bank in just the same way that Bolton is trying to bring down the UN. Nobody is fooled, but will anyone do anything about it? So far only Wilson and a few others along with the efforts of Fitzgerald have hit any broadsides.

*shadow government*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. Bolton is the best person to be representing our Gov. in the U.N.
While I find him to be a giant flaming asshole, he accurately represents the views of these chicken hawks in our government and those of the ruling Republican party. His is the perfect face to present to the U.N. Why try to deceive the world? I agree with Boosh's choice for his ambassador. Boosh is sneaky, smarmy, evil, mean-spirited, stupid and lacking in any moral fiber and so is Bolton. Bolton, sadly, is who America is right now.

I wish it weren't so but it is. America is the Republican party, like it or leave it. The Democrats have no voice and only a few have enough spine to adequately portray the sentiments of a fraction of the truly concerned people. I know the polls are low but still, people in this country just seem more than willing to go along to get along. As long as they continue to accept leadership of this quality, I say "Bring it on".

In fact, I think Boosh should go one further. I think Boosh should just pardon Abramoff and install him as his new political adviser after he gives Rove his permanent extra-constitutional job of Presidential Adviser and Head of the Secret Police(just in case Diebold botches the next Presidential selection, we must make this job life-long). I think Delay should be given permanent total control over the House and Senate because let's face it, Frist is hardly keeping his sheep in line. If America is willing to accept criminals and thugs as their leaders then America deserves them and worse. If our media wants to sit around on their hands and simply pick up their paychecks for copying press releases, that's good enough for America. If our Congress wants to crawl on it's belly like the tired little maggots they are, then that good enough for America.

Our Freedoms were purchased at a price few, if any, are willing to pay today. If no one is willing to defend them, to fight for them, to stand up and say "No", then we deserve this and more. Eventually though, if America stays on this path, it will fall. Once everything we love is dead or poisoned or sold off to the highest bidder or biggest creditor, America will fall. It's as inevitable as gravity. A house divided against itself cannot stand. This saying was as true 2,000 years ago as it is today. If America is so weak-spirited that it can fall to the likes of Bush and his cronies, then it does not deserve to stay as the "leader of the free world". Better to let her die a quick death then prolong the suffering.

No one is going to burn for outing Plame, not even ole Scooty Poot. He'll tie up the courts and confound Fitz by drowning him in legal proceedings and when all is said and done, he'll cut a deal for 2 weeks probation and a stiff fine. Of course the bonus he'll get from Northrupp Grumman or Boeing or any number of patriotic God-fearing Corporations will gladly cover that penalty and America will just keep spinning itself into oblivion. I truly wish it wasn't this way but it is, that's the reality we live in here in America. I truly wish it wasn't but as my momma used to say, "You can wish in one hand and shit in the other; let's see which one fills up faster." The corporations are the new law in America and they look out for thier own, that is just the sad, sad facts of life. The wars over, we lost.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. "He'll tie up the courts
and confound Fitz...." Perhaps you should read the court proceedings before saying such things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
29. Hasn't he been tying up the courts with his requests for...
classified documents and other "national security issues"? Aren't they currently trying to impeach Cooper's testimony over "slight" variations in his reporting? Scooters lawyers are merely playing games, cutting the fat and mostly stalling.

Scooter's not worried about prison, he's worried about time. He's never going to spend a day in prison and he knows it. How does he know that? Well, his boss had a beer, shot a man in the face, waved him off to a hospital, had a martini, went to sleep and then called the cops to file a report 8 hours later. Scooter's not afraid of going to jail. And even if through some miracle, he should, how long would he get? Hell, Alger Hiss barely spent 44 months in jail and he was a Soviet spy. However, Hiss didn't have the lifelong gratitude of the corporate military complex to look forward to either.

Scooter's only function is to shield the Fat Dick sitting next to the Corporate Messiah. If Scooter were to roll on the Fat Dick and give it up, who knows where that could lead. But Scooters never going to do that. There's nothing in it for him. Scooters sitting back dreaming, dreaming, dreaming of a life of ease and mountains o' mountains of thangs.

I do appreciate your reporting and the skill you've shown in chronicling the facts. I always read your articles and have a lot of respect for the way you think. But no amount of eloquence will change the reality of what is happening in that court of "law". Scooter Libby revealed the name of a covert CIA agent to the mainstream American Media in order to help trick the American people into supporting an illegal war. He's on trial for lying about telling the reporter. The fact that he illegally revealed her name means nothing. The fact that the war he helped create and then sold with a pack of lies means nothing. Doesn't that seem a bit screwed up?

I know people say, "Oh, they had to get Capone on Tax evasion." and things of that nature but Capone got sentenced to 11 years in prison and wound up going crazy in Alcatraz. Scooters going to get probation and then go crazy at Scores. It's hardly a fitting punishment for his original sin. I know what the maximum penalties are for Perjury and Obstruction of Justice but I also know he's not going to get the maximum sentence either. He's not even going to come close. That's what pisses me off so much about the Libby story. He's either going to walk away from this completely scott free or with a mild reprimand; either way, he's a martyr for the Neo-cons that they'll cherish forever. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that this prediction will bear out.

There is no doubt in my mind that you know infinitely more than I do about the Libby case but from whatever angle I look at this case it seems to lead to the same conclusion. Even if we "win" this battle, we lose. The original crime will be ignored, the sentence if any will be marginal at best and the "Law" will be used, yet again, to justify a bigger crime. Perjury is hardly a good trade against conspiracy to commit mass murder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. Scooter has already rolled on Cheney. Fitzgerald revealed that in
court recently. He also 'rolled' on Bush. Of all the information revealed in the Libby pre-trial filings, this revelation was considered important enough by the MSM to report on it. So, at least on that, you are mistaken. He has stated that both Cheney and Bush were responsible for telling him to leak the information about Plame. And, Fitz may have at least one corroborating witness who was on AF2 with Cheney and Libby in July, 2003. She has been before the GJ ~
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #29
38. Depressingly well stated, mikelewis.
I'm kind of where you are. We have this great legal drama playing out that, when all the smoke clears, means what? We nail someone for lying to a grand jury? Since when will that stop a Bush from pardoning him? Unless someone can show me a clear roadmap to impeachment of every Republican neocon-criminal who has aided and abetted this administration....what's the point?

No, to me, I think the game was over when we let this administration get away with 9/11. Criminal negligence in the deaths of 3000 Americans. They got to install their Commission and they got off scott-free. No justice served. Then they got to start an elective war in Iraq, based on lies. Again, no accountability.

The cynic in me thinks the Plame affair is just a side show to keep people like us distracted and entertained. Well, not entertained so much as a to provide a relief valve to vent our macro frustration and corral our hope that justice prevails, a shared corroboration that "the system works". A belief sink. In the end, Scooter will get convicted...and pardoned....and then we'll realize that while we were all glued to 3 year legal soap opera playing out on our internet TV's, these bastards were continuing to steal elections, steal the Treasury, destroy our international reputation, and dismantle the remnants of whatever remained of what our country once was.

I really hope I am wrong, but November will tell me everything as to whether there's any hope for us in seeing justice served and accountability extracted. The good news is, that the dynamic cannot continue in their favor forever. As the Syndicate becomes more cynically corrupt, it necessarirly diminishes in numbers, more concentrated and isolated until they can no longer control the levers of power. There will be a day of reckoning and it will be a son-of-a-bitch...it just might not be any time soon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Two things:
First, none of the pre-trial hearings are going to slow the case down. Miller & Cooper did, by their lengthy appeal. Team Libby, Fitzgerald, and the judge agreed upon January '07 due to the nature of the case. Though Libby could have asked for a trial sooner, he believed that the later date would allow the case to drop from public view. The pre-trial motions, responses, replies, and rulings have done quite the opposite: they have created a lot of bad publicity for the president and especially the vice president. Friends of Cheney call Scooter's grand jury testimony "the Gospel of Judas."

Second, Team Libby has not won a single substantial pre-trial contest yet. Just the opposite. In virtually every one, Libby loses more and more ground.

Remember that Libby had sought a plea deal before his indictment. He refused what Mr. Fitzgerald offered, because it included years of incarceration. I think he will make a deal in late November-early December, but it includes years of prison time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. It seems fitting that they should name his testimony the "Gospel of Judas"
The Gospel of Judas tells a completely different story than the one told by the disciples of Jesus concerning the betrayal. The Gospel claims that Jesus put Judas up to betraying him, in an attempt to ensure all the prophecies were fulfilled. If this is the Gospel of Judas, then Scooters testimony is ultimately designed to help his master and further the deception.

"You went into jail in the summer. It is fall now. You will have stories to cover--Iraqi elections and suicide bombers, biological threats and the Iranian nuclear program. Out West, where you vacation, the aspens will already be turning. They turn in clusters, because their roots connect them. Come back to work--and life."

These people move and deceive as one unit. Their sole goal is complete dominance of American politics and they are willing to do anything to achieve that end. They will lie, cheat, steal and even kill to further their own goals and yes, even sacrifice one of their own if necessary. But I just don't believe Scooter will offer much of a sacrifice.

Also, don't you find the timing of his trial just a bit convenient. Jan '07 is pretty convenient if all you care about is "winning" selections. I'm not suggesting that date is a contrivance by Fitz or the Judge to help in the election but it does seem to work into the hands of the Republican political machine quite nicely, don't you think? I'm quite sure they're not crying over the pace of this trial or the outcomes so far.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. Thanks for commenting...I've appreciate your informed opinion on these
matters.

Still, if the culmination of our efforts to hold this administration accountable resides in putting Scooter Libbey in jail for a few years....I'll be underwhelmed with the outcome. Real change can only occur if we regain the Congressional majorities in November.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. Rooked Is The Word All Right
The American people have become "collateral" to these people and held hostage to their world conquering view.

As to Bolton's visits to Judy, I wonder if they've had any recent tete-a-tetes, considering how she now knows she is being sliced and diced by the Libby defense. Will her ire also be focused on Bolton who may have sold her a bill of goods?

Back when Bolton was, as a recess appointment, sent to the UN, it was reported around NY that the knives were out for him but that it would be done quietly and discreetly. The people at the UN are not the least bit in awe or frightened by him, in fact there seems to be alliances and consensus building among st those who once stood with us and now do not. As for their propensity to lie (WH, WHIG, OVP etc.) wasn't there an article written or a report given that said that they had in fact decided to lie whenever it suited them and their policies.

David Shuster reports. I'm glad you brought that up, and the fact that he was vindicated in regards to the Bolton matter. There has been in recent weeks attempts at swiftboating him in the media and even, on progressive sites. I would venture to say, given the stakes, he doesn't make his reports lightly.

Always comes back to Ledeen and company doesn't it? And excuse me, but while Israel is our ally, our interests are not identical, and to think otherwise is to make the same mistake Franklin did.

Lots of good info here and good to see you focus on Bolton. What about the other one, the one who spells his with an E, and Addington, the viper in Libby's nest?

*shadow government*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
41. I often
recommend that People ask not just "how?" .... but more importantly, "why?" That is a good question in regard to those who attempt to smear David Shuster.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. K and r
uncover the corruption infesting the Bush-republicon machine and afflicting America
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. I've been watching Mr. Bolton’s role in all of this.
;)



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. That really sums it all up, Swamp Rat
>THAT< is Bolton. You've captured him perfectly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
18. David Shuster is one of the few journalists I can still trust. (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #18
52. !
*shadow government*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thank you for discussing Bolton. He has been a character
in all of this that I have found to be very interesting for a long time, but there isn't much talk about him.

I recall the Huffington article and that "Bolton had a history of providing information to Judith Miller." Do we know if Fleitz testified to the GJ?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spindrifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. Bolton wins on accolades by his quasi-peer group:
Carl W. Ford Jr., a former assistant secretary of intelligence and research described Bolton as a serial abuser of underlings and a "quintessential kiss-up, kick-down sort of guy" in his testimony before the Senate FRC confirmation hearings for Bolton. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0416-02.htm

John Bolton has so many unsavory aspects to his public persona. He is a master of obfuscation--whether figuring out ways to keep information from inquiring congressional committees charged with investigating USSC appointees or keeping information about Iran-Contra out of the clutches of the nosy. On the other hand, he is right there presenting information to legislative committees in the Taiwangate affair. Then he has been a masterful champion of U.S. law--i.e., keeping his colleagues safe from the clutches of the International Criminal Court.

With his special qualities, I would venture he had plenty of charm to throw Ms. Miller's way.

Thanks, H2Oman.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
23. the rook,
often out of sight but quite effective in the ruler's quest for control of power/the playing field.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. !
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
24. i just added you to my favorites list so i can read more of your essays
excellent analysis :yourock:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
31. How many times did Bolton visit Miller in the clink?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Twice, I believe. John Clemons says that Bolton was a constant source
for Judith Miller for the WMD information she published before the war. The question was raised last year whether Judy was protecting Bolton as a source. What's interesting is that Fitzgerald agreed to limit her testimony only to Libby as discussed on John Clemons' blog below.

I wonder if Fitzgerald had enough information on Bolton already? Why would he give up an opportunity to force her to testify about Bolton if he was one of her sources? She did say, I remember, that she 'feared for her lift' around the time she was fighting Fitzgerald's subpoena.

In this John Clemons entry, someone raised the possibility that Bolton was sent to the UN by Bush because he would have diplomatic immunity and could not be indicted while there. There's a lot of discussion about his refusal to hand over the material Democrats on the nomination committee were asking for ~

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/000798.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
32. David Shuster has been doing excellent work.
Asking questions to cover where the story leads, instead of following the cover story.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
34. What an ass. But, don't forget Wolfie. The neocons have spread,...
,...themselves all over the board.

What they DON'T get is that, they are mostly pawns. What they WON'T accept is that, the world is NOT their board to play such games.

I imagine, they are ALL quite frustrated, in spite of their infatuation with their superiority (narcissistic personality disorder). Very sick, dangerous people. However, I'd guess that both Bolton and Wolfie are burdening some well-earned humility.

Sorry,....I sorta' got off topic there 'cause I was thinking about the "chess game" these crazies are playing.

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
40. I'm hoping that you BIND all these "chapters" and get a book out there
! Why waste all this good stuff, when everyone should be reading it, in Starbucks and Borders, everywhere :)

IMHO I think, knowing what we know about Bolton, how he wanted RAW Data in the State Dept, something that simply wasn't done, as well as telling other state dept employees that he "wanted to keep it in the family" when they showed up for the morning meetings, only to be kicked OUT by Fleitz, well Fleitz is OUR BOY..

Now Fleitz is someone that gets short shrift in this tale. Let's take a look at him too - as someone who KNEW Plame, AND kept his CIA Portfolio WHILE he worked with Bolton in the State Dept, well, that sent off warning bells when I found that out.. he would move FREELY from the State Dept (kissing Bolton's ass) to the CIA and back again..

If ANYONE may have outed Valerie, I believe this clown would have done it, no questions asked, as Bolton's Gestapo and Sock Puppet.. I think we'll hear more about him as time goes on, both of them for sure.

Want to read some frightening manipulation go Google Fleitz, and look for PDF files of his Testimony when interviewed about his Relationship with another Bolton "employee", sad to say, another man who seemed to WANT to serve his country, but Bolton wanted his head on a platter and Fleitz delivered it Pronto.. can't recall the name of the State Dept person they crucified, but the Interview (I believe it was the FBI) is CHILLING, cold blooded Natural born killer.. I couldn't pull myself away when doing the research for my film, it's that good of a read..

I'll look for the link to the PDFs if anyone is interested.

If this all gets boiled down to ONE BLACK HEART, you can bet that Bolton will be one of the Arteries and Fleitz a valve..

Thanks for getting this info out there H20Man, many people have no idea how involved Bolton was/is, I covered him in my film to make sure that didn't get lost.. and BIND ALL THESE WRITINGS, we need a REAL BOOK on this, there will be so many Right wing "What really Happened" PRESPINS sitting on the shelves soon enough, we need someone to tell it like it IS :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. I second that emotion. An H2OMan book would be very illuminating.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. Third that idea
I would buy the book as soon as it hit shelves - good idea :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. 4th recommendation for book from H2O man

Skillful, analytical and thoughtful writings by H2O - compiled would be a compelling book. Plus I love his historical perspective.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. See that H2OMan?
Pretty soon I'm going to be asking for a CUT :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PRETZEL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #40
49. Make that 5 recommendations,
Gladly add me to the list.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #40
51. Hear Hear!
H20Man is THE source on Plame. A book is more than appropriate at this point. Thank you for your hard work for all of us. Excellent. :yourock:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Great idea, Symbolman ~ I would buy that book and the story is so
complex that people who haven't followed it will be looking for someone to put it all together. H2OMan has done that.

I am not familiar with Fleitz but will go look him up ~ thanks for mentioning that ~ what a band of criminals Bush chose to take over the reigns of power in this country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flying_wahini Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
45. truly a captivating story,

almost unbelievable, isn't it? I know it happened the way you state -
but not easy for ordinary people to understand. The cast of players is so complicated,
yet you manage to keep it all together.
Yes, yes, a book is in order. Please.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
56. Dear H2OMan
here'a thread that is dedicated to YOU writing the Plame book, and they are lining up around the Block - you'd have the undying support of many DU'Rs, myself included and I'd get behind this 100% to push or sell it..]

Here's the link on the DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1319606

Let folks know if you CAN, we'd LOVE to see YOU on the Daily Show, trading friendly barbs with John Stewart, and with a 90,000 member board, I'm sure that you'd get a LOT of help and support..

Even had a publisher email me aftter hearing about the thread and offer to publish, so PM me at least and I'll pass that along..

A great way to get the word Out before the Right wing PRESPIN Corp wallpapers Borders with garbage :)

As far as I've seen you may have the book written already, or MUCH of it on your various postings..

Let's ROLL sir!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
57. ttt n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 18th 2024, 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC