Haditha massacre: Iraqis feel it "happens all the time."

[Eric J in MN]

On "Hardball" on MSNBC tonight, military reporter Jim Miklaszewski said the Iraqis aren't upset by the Haditha massacre in particular, because they feel this "happens all the time."

[Karenina]

1. It DOES happen all the time!

DUH!

[TahitiNut]

7. No it doesn't.

It seems unusual that one of the troops has the right kind of cell phone and the presence of mind to use it to make a record that's clear enough to stand up against the denials and obfuscations - let alone is able to get the images in the right hands. I'm fairly confident that the Bushoilini Regime has some very mixed feelings about the state of video technology today.

I have little doubt that many have found their claims to be met with threats and hostilities, however. Funny how easy it is to "weed them out" in a combat zone.

[SmokingJacket]

12. Just like Abu Ghraib.

If no one had taken pictures, it wouldn't have happened...

[pacalo]

22. TahitiNut...

The guy (Lance Cpl. Roel Ryan Briones) was actually sent by a superior to take pictures:

Briones said his team was assigned to mark the bodies of the victims by number and place them in body bags. He said a sergeant or a junior officer, he couldn't recall which, asked if any of the Marines carried personal cameras and that he and another Marine, whom he identified as Lance Cpl. Andrew Wright of Novato, said they did.

"You are going to be combat photographers," Briones said they were told.

Briones said he took pictures of at least 15 bodies before his camera batteries died. He said he then helped other Marines remove the bodies and place them in body bags. He said his worst moment, and one that haunts him to this day, was picking up the body of a young girl who was shot in the head.

(...)

Ryan Briones said that he and other members of the cleanup crew remained at the site until about 11 p.m. When he came back he said he dropped his Olympus 3.2 megapixel camera by the unmanned Sparta base command operations center. When he returned a few hours later he said it looked like the camera had been moved so he assumed someone had downloaded the pictures and he erased them all.

But whether the photos ever reached authorities, who also have pictures from an intelligence investigation team and another source, is not clear.

(...)

LATimes

[TahitiNut]

27. I think it takes a nuanced understanding of the military ...

... to comprehend the dynamics of this. I'd have very little difficulty believing an NCO found ways of "doing the right thing." Even in the authoritarian, "gungis-hois" culture there are dialectics between politics and patriotism, honor and loyalty, duty and obedience.

[pacalo]

30. Excellently said.

His state of mind in regard to the incident suggests that he was disturbed enough to want to do the right thing:

"I held her out like this," he said, demonstrating with his arms extended, "but her head was bobbing up and down and the insides fell on my legs."

As he spoke, his mother, Susie Briones, 40, a Hanford community college teacher, who was sitting beside him at the kitchen table, silently wiped away tears.

Earlier she confided to a reporter that her son called frequently from Iraq after he experienced nightmares over the little girl.

"He called me many times," she said, "about carrying this little girl in his hands and her brains splattering on his boots. He'd say, 'Mom, I can't clean my boots. I can't clean my boots. I see her.' "

[BuyingThyme]

15. Yes, it does. It would still be secret if not for Iraqi witnesses.

Americans are the bad guys. There's no way around that.

Get them the fuck out of there.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

16. kick

[IndyOp]

2. Military reporter - as in a member of the US military who is a reporter?

And he is saying this nonchalantly on MSNBC?

:wow:

[Eric J in MN]

9. No, he's a civilian who reports on the military for NBC. (nt)

nt

[Jeffersons Ghost]

11. kick

[global1]

3. I Wonder If This Haditha Massacre Will Be Only The Tip Of The...

iceberg. Watch more instances of this type of atrocity come out. I sometimes question if these deaths of Iraqi's that we hear happen every day aren't the result of our people killing them - either Black Ops, Blackwater, Negroponte's Death Squads. As long as there appears that there are problems in Iraq - *Co will have an excuse for staying.

[malaise]

25. No need to wonder

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/053006Z.shtml

[Jeffersons Ghost]

31. yep plenty of voices claim it's widespread

[MSgt213]

4. I don't agree that the Iraqi's aren't upset. I do agree they aren't

marching in the streets because that would be pretty unsafe for them. However, I think they are upset. They just can't demostrate that. This is where their leaders need to step up and fight for them. So far I hear that their prime minister is now speaking out.

[Tom Joad]

19. Iraqis are speaking out! By joining the resistance to the occupation.

[Ms. Clio]

5. That's what was said on Democracy Now

And Matthew Schofield discussed another massacre of 11 civilians, which is this incident from my own archives, I think:

The Sunday Times March 26, 2006

Iraqis killed by US troops ‘on rampage’

Hala Jaber and Tony Allen-Mills, New York
Claims of atrocities by soldiers mount


THE villagers of Abu Sifa near the Iraqi town of Balad had become used to the sound of explosions at night as American forces searched the area for suspected insurgents. But one night two weeks ago Issa Harat Khalaf heard a different sound that chilled him to the bone.

Khalaf, a 33-year-old security officer guarding oil pipelines, saw a US helicopter land near his home. American soldiers stormed out of the Chinook and advanced on a house owned by Khalaf’s brother Fayez, firing as they went.

Khalaf ran from his own house and hid in a nearby grove of trees. He saw the soldiers enter his brother’s home and then heard the sound of women and children screaming.

“Then there was a lot of machinegun fire,” he said last week. After that there was the most frightening sound of all — silence, followed by explosions as the soldiers left the house.

[heartofthesiskiyou]

6. It happens alot more then the public knows I'm sure

It most cetainly is routed in trying to conduct the war on the cheap. To do it, if they were going to do it right, would have required a draft and that is what's at the heart of the problem of Iraq, dishonesty to the American public. A draft would have stopped everything cold and DOD et al new it from the get go.

I saw Rangle get a cheap shot on this issue today and that was too bad. Rangle new that if the pukes had to send thier kids in to fight, support for the war was DOA. So he spoke trueth to lies with a put your money were your mouth is bill to reinstate the draft. He and every single rep. new what he meant. It was killed like it had cooties. Unfortunatly, too many on our side of the isle understand that wisdom and thought he was actually trying to install the draft.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

8. Iraqis KNOW it happens all the time. nt.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

10. K&R!

end the killing. we are the majority.

[rustydog]

13. What do you think the attack on Fallujah was?

3 mercenaries were ruthlessly murdered, their bodies burned and hung from a bridge.
the Moral old USA surrounded Fallujah because maybe those who did this vile act lived there or ran into the town to hide.

America sealed off the town, snipers picked off civilians right and left. the carpet bombing of Fallujah was collective punishment for the offense of persons unknown to American troops so we destroyed the town.

How is this different from Haditha except that children had their brains blown out a close range?

[UTUSN]

14. Why, don't they know it's "just a few bad apples"? n/t

[LibertyorDeath]

17. Iraqis killed by US troops ‘on rampage’

Hala Jaber and Tony Allen-Mills, New York
Claims of atrocities by soldiers mount
THE villagers of Abu Sifa near the Iraqi town of Balad had become used to the sound of explosions at night as American forces searched the area for suspected insurgents. But one night two weeks ago Issa Harat Khalaf heard a different sound that chilled him to the bone.

Khalaf, a 33-year-old security officer guarding oil pipelines, saw a US helicopter land near his home. American soldiers stormed out of the Chinook and advanced on a house owned by Khalaf’s brother Fayez, firing as they went.

Khalaf ran from his own house and hid in a nearby grove of trees. He saw the soldiers enter his brother’s home and then heard the sound of women and children screaming.

“Then there was a lot of machinegun fire,” he said last week. After that there was the most frightening sound of all — silence, followed by explosions as the soldiers left the house.

More http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2103695,00...

[Tom Joad]

18. It does happen all the time. The responsibility rests on the commanders

not the gi's.
We must do all we can to help gi's resist this war.

See
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1316940&mesg_id=1316940

[mmonk]

20. About a year ago,

a woman we know said her son said it was alright, they shoot low at the children. I guess they don't shoot low all the time though.

[CoffeeCat]

21. Of course it happens all of the time...

How many Iraqis have we killed since we've been there...100,000 or so?

Are Americans so numb that they don't understand what those numbers mean?

Innocent Iraqi men, women and children are killed almost daily in this lie-based farce.

[Scoody Boo]

23. Most of the DU members feel it happens all of the time, also.

As someone who did spend a year in Iraq, I can say that it doesn't. Haditha was THOSE Marines not being controlled by their commanders and fucking it up royally.

You have acussations of Marines killing 24 civilians in cold blood. This they should be punished for once they are tried and found guilty of it.

24 civilians is not even a good daily total for car bombing insurgents in Iraq.

[Catrina]

24. You're forgetting the over 100,000 thousand (latest reports are way higher

than that) dead Iraqis, the hundreds of thousands of maimed and wounded, the tortured, the theft of Iraq's oil revenues (over $9 Billion dollars to begin with, while the rape of its natural resources will be ongoing). The theft of Iraqi jobs, given to war profiteers leaving them unable to care for their families. Now we are finding out that defense contractors were bribing congressmen to push for this war and to get contracts for them.

So many Republican congressmen were so vocal in their support for this war, Duke Cunningham eg, and more will be named soon as Hookergate unfolds. They were acting so patriotic!! It seems it wasn't about patriotism after all. We know now why they supported it. It was all about money, all that death and destruction, including the unleashing of criminal elements on the Iraqi people (the 'terrorists' you keep bringing up) killing and robbing more civilians.

Who should be punished for all this??

Then there are the crimes against the American people. Just a reminder about the lies we were told:

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11

There were no WMDs and the Bush administration knew it. Any doubts of that are being eradicated as evidence of the plans to lie to the American emerge in the testimony in the Plame investigation.

They lied about the cost of the war.
They lied about how long this war would be ~ 'months, weeks maybe'.
They lied and lied and called anyone who questioned them 'traitors'.

They sent out their sychophants, to the media, on internet boards, they paid fake reporters, to 'catapult the propaganda' so determined were they to have their war. A bunch of cowardly chickenhawks who avoided ever serving themselves as did their family members in the wars they support.

2450 troops have died so far, and tens of thousands are permanently scarred, both physically and mentally.

Who should be punished for all those crimes against the American people?

If you read the Neocon writings you'll see that they want chaos in Iraq. Because they intend to stay there, they are building bases and the largest embassy ever built there. They will never leave that oil to the people who own it. And that's another lie they are telling the American people!

On the day of Bush' multi-million dollar inauguration in Jan. 2005, featuring a display of US military might, the world saw a different picture than the one he hoped to impress them with.

They saw this picture of a little Iraqi girl, covered in her parents blood after their car was fired on coming home after a day out with their children. The title of the picture that day was 'An Iraqi girl screams'.



If the neocons thought their gross display of wealth and power that day would impress the world, they were wrong. That little girl's wrenching pain overshadowed their tasteless display and she symbolized for many, the dangers of the abuse of such wealth and power. It's easy for people who have souls and hearts to imagine their own little girls sitting like that on the side of the road. Not so easy for Bush supporters. Thank God they are in the minority.

I don't know how those who are responsible for this can sleep at night. But they do because profits are worth more than the lives of a million little girls like that.

Anyone who loves this country can no longer continue to make excuses for what this administration has done to it. I just wish so many had not allowed themselves to be fooled for so long.

As far as which deaths are 'acceptable' or not? The first one caused by Shock and Awe, was one too many ~ and it was murder because this whole war was never necessary. Those people did nothing to this country.

[ShortnFiery]

26. This time, unlike the Abu Garib, THE LEADERSHIP should be held accountable

I concur with Murtha and Batiste, sound leadership prevents such actions EVEN with troops at risk. Some LEADER (Officers Field Grade and Above) should be held accountable for their lack of guidance and promoting a culture that allows such *war crimes* to not only HAPPEN, but also COVER THEM UP.

If there is Justice, Officers will be put on trial right along with those who pulled the trigger.

IMO there's NO ACCOUNTABILITY for our leaders. F**k-ups get the Medal of Freedom. What message does that send to the average Infantry troop on his third Iraqi tour?

[Catrina]

28. True. Good leadership would have prevented this.

And also, all the troops were hearing on talk radio was hatemonger Limpballs. I wonder how much affect that kind of propaganda has on people in a warzone? Tom Daschle said 'anal cysts' (deliberatley not using name so we don't have to endure ads) hateful speech towards him caused his family to have get protection from bomb threats.

Troops who support the rightwing view of the world and listen to all this propaganda and read the garbage put out by Richard Melon Scaiffe and Regnery publishing house, imo, are way more likely to act this way towards Iraqis.

Rwanda was proof of that ~ that hate radio can have a deadly effect on an already volatile situation.

The Iraqi ambassador said today that this 'happens all the time' and that his own nephew was killed unjustly by US troops. British soldiers (not exactly an army with a clean record themselves) have also said that US troops are 'acting like cowboys' over there and complained about their behavior.

Karzai went to the WH to complain about the indescriminate killing of his people by the US, including women and children, which was fueling the demonstrations last year and demanded the release of innocent people from Guantanamo. Publicly Bush ignored him, but quietly released 50 of the supposedly most dangerous people in the world to try to calm Karzai down.

We've been hearing about these atrocities since the war began. Independent journalists have written about them like Robert Fisk and Dahr Jamail, eg. It's only because it made the MSM that makes this incident different ~

[anarch]

29. I've probably posted this a couple dozen times, but here it is again:

From chief American prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials, Robert H. Jackson:

"To initiate a war of aggression...is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

So, yeah, I can see not being upset about Haditha in particular.