ON KILLING KIDS IN HADITHA... let me tell you a true 'Nam story

[Jeffersons Ghost]

In the VA I met a man who would cover his ears and run like hell whenever he saw a child, which puzzled me, so I asked a guy who was there for chronic PTSD nightmares what it was about. My friend said, "One day on guard duty in 'Nam a child came up to some guys at the gate for candy and then exploded killing several of his pals because she was rigged with a bomb. Later, according to my source, he shot another kid who he thought wore a bomb but there was no bomb that day, only a child seeking candy. He's probably at the VA to this very day, hiding from kids.

I don't know why they shot first asked questions later in Haditha, Iraq but I do know what killing kids does to a person in the long term, even if the kids are insurgents.

Instead of putting soldiers on trial for murder and a few low-level leaders on trial for cover-ups, let's put Gen. Peter Pace, George Bush Jr and Dick Cheney on trial for 100,000 counts of murder in Iraq and crimes against humanity.

[babylonsister]

1. Amen! And don't forget Rumsfailed. nt

[Jeffersons Ghost]

2. oh yeah, let's not forget that evil Rum-headed killer. anyone else?

[knitter4democracy]

3. Wow. All those years of pain.

That's awful. Now we have a new generation to take care of and worry about. *sigh*

[moobu2]

4. Let these soldiers get away with mass revenge murder this time

then what’s to stop the next soldier from doing the same thing? It would say that if you lose a fellow soldier to a suicide bombing, it’s ok to go on a revenge rampage. Not good.

otherwise I'm all for charging George Bush Jr and Dick Cheney for war crimes.

[MadMaddie]

8. They should be punished.....but in the military it is ultimately

the leaders who take the hit....(in theory that it is....) in this administration leaders who break laws get promoted...and as we have seen in the the past only the low level soldiers and any women involved will be punished.....this goes all the way to the top....

Supposedly the admin didn't know about it until they read the articles and hear Murtha talking about it....
This is a catastrophic breakdown in communications....or is it? Did Rummy know....I am just betting he did...

[rocktivity]

28. Haditha wasn't rooted in revenge, but in the soliders' repressed rage

at their helplessness, which they can't express because that's against regulations.

They voluntarily joined the smartest, strongest, most sophisticated military in the world. But they're being over-deployed, under-equipped, outnumbered and outwitted by a bunch of yellow rice-happy gooks--oops, I mean, a bunch of brown sand-happy ragheads. And they’re not only fighting a war with no end, but one that they have to keep pretending they can win.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Jeffersons Ghost]

38. err, what about the leaders rocknation? oh yeah another general "retired"

how many generals does that 6 or 7? that's unlike Nam.

[rocktivity]

56. What about the leaders? Who do you think is RESPONSIBLE for

the underequipping, overdeploying, and the troops being outnumbered and outwitted?

:shrug:
rocknation

[SpiralHawk]

5. Bush is responsible for Haditha

George AWOL Bush & his corrupt chickenhawk republicon cronies created the culture of lies and fear that led to this ungodly massacre.

The fish rots from the head down.

If Bush wants to compare himself to Harry Truman, then the Massacre and Torture Bucks must stop on his desk.

Bush failed to serve out his sworn commitment to the Texas Air National Guard, and went AWOL, shaming himself.

Bush failed America on 9/11, sitting on his butt and reading "My Pet Goat," never lifting a finger to lead any kind of a defense. With over an hour of warning, he and his hand-picked "generals" could not even muster a pop gun to defend Washington and the Pentagon.

Bush failed America and the Gulf Coast during KATRINA, continuing his plush vactation at the Imperial Pig Farm Upon Crawford, eating cake, and turning his back on the people of the nation

Bush failed America's soldiers -- including the Haditha Marines -- when he lied to them all about WMD, and lied about the real reasons for his Oil-Profit War.

Almost all of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi Arabians. Here is commander AWOL's response to his Saudi Oil Cronies:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

9. nice pic spiral hawk

that cute couple holds hands too

[deFaultLine]

46. Uh...

Holding hands for Arab men is normal.

We need to understand that America has a lot of bizarre cultural practices...at least from an outsiders viewpoint.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

63. oh that's right, i keep forgetting Ali Busba is Arabian

it throws me off because he looks so western.

[wordpix2]

* is looking pretty gay there!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

34. lol, how about here?

[Poiuyt]

43. Sometimes, Bush doesn't even hide it

[Jeffersons Ghost]

47. lol.

[Renew Deal]

6. I agree

They shouldn't be there in the first place. Start at the top.

[jpevahouse]

7. same old story

I've heard those storys. Doesn't work for me. Often you'll find it's just people trying very hard to appease their conscience for doing stuff no human being would ever do in a normal situation and simply can't face. The only way the guy could ever really understand is if someone killed his child. Then he would understand and I'll bet his attitude would change about killing children.

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. For every dead kid

There seems to be a story about a kid with a bomb.

It seems rather, I dunno, dubious.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

11. and you know what? they ALL work to end the killing in Iraq

kids with bombs, baby killers, photos like this:
and charts like this: it all works.

[NNN0LHI]

12. The VA man you met shouldn't have been over there in Vietnam to begin with

That is probably what is really bothering him.

I don't believe the "kid rigged up like a bomb" story by the way.

Don

[Jeffersons Ghost]

13. that's because you weren't there.. it's easy to believe only what's compfy

I saw the guy run away every time kids came around to see their dads. believe whatever you want or just believe bush. it's much easier that way.

[NNN0LHI]

14. Were you there? n/t

[Jeffersons Ghost]

15. yep read the OP

chicken hawks talk shit but the real deal doesn't need to lie.

[NNN0LHI]

16. I read it. You are passing off what someone told you as fact

Not something you have seen or can provide credible cites for. Its a story. You believe it. I don't believe it.

Don

[Jeffersons Ghost]

18. I was an inpatient and my friend was not a liar

I knew him well and he didn't volunteer the info on the spot, I asked him later because he had been there so long. kids with bombs attached is the oldest trick in the book in wars like Vietnam and Iraq.

[TomInTib]

20. Hey, J G, read my reply #19.

[Blue Diadem]

27. I believe it. I had two brothers over there..one saw it happen, one

was in a different area during different years and was shocked to hear anything like that. The one who saw it happen suffered from severe PTSD. The child was booby trapped..visibly booby trapped and they shot the child. My brother described it in detail to me one night..the first time he'd met my first born son who was about the same size as the child who was killed. I watched the pain and the far away look in my brother's eyes as he stared at my son and I asked him what was wrong.

Sometimes I wish I hadn't gotten an answer.

I never heard anyone else ever talk about such a thing..until a year or so ago on C-span. A group of vets were together giving speeches. A woman stood up and spoke about the booby trapped children..and how one soldier took a chance and saved an infant.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

59. yeah there's lots of stories out there... thanks for yours ourvotes count

that's what made me wonder where those who doubted the OP live... on Earth right?

[Blue Diadem]

62. Makes me wonder too JG n/t

[TomInTib]

19. I knew guys who were killed by a kid with a grenade.

Kid's mother used to come around. She would dispense "favors" in retutn for a small remittance.

Then she started bringing a kid about 5 years old to the firecamp. Just as cute as could be.

One day the kid walked over to mom's bag, pulled out a frag, pulled the pin and walked into a tent where some guys were playing checkers (it was raining).

Killed three guys and the kid. Totally fucked up two other guys.

This was in Quang Tri. 1971 or '72.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

24. and I know this vet too! he doesn't lie either

thanks tom... hows the weather in California?

[TomInTib]

26. Absolutely beautiful weather here.

Man, that was an awful experience.

4 or 5 of us watched the whole thing from about 50 feet away. It just never dawned on us what was going down. Even when it happened we didn't grasp it. One of the wounded guys told us.

[NNN0LHI]

31. You watched it all happen but can't remember what year it was?

OK.

Don

[TomInTib]

35. Uh...

I was in country for 39 months.

We were in so much shit that I have trouble putting events in chronological order, much less remember years in which most things happened.

Qua Viet River, Quang Tri and west into Laos. google that along with 'PBR' and you will understand why.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

49. what only 39 months and you can't remember EVERY minute of it

:sarcasm: it's a damn wonder you're not veging out in some VA.

[TomInTib]

50. Total lack of credibility.

Hell, I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

32. that's a tough one tom and not isolated

i've heard other buddies from Nam tell the same story, with minor variations.

[NNN0LHI]

25. Did you see it happen?

Or was it just a story that was told to you?

Don

[TomInTib]

30. Read #26.

Unfortunately, I not only saw it, I could have stopped it if I had recognized the threat.

[bobbieinok]

22. even anti-war protestors in VN believed that some kids (+ women)

carried bombs. This story is quite believable to me, who was a young adult in the 60s; there were several quite believable stories that such things happened.

If you're fighting a war, especially vs those more powerful, you often use those who are perceived to be non-threatening. See for example the Palestinian girls who have been suicide bombers in Israel. And what about all the stories of the French Resistance where young boys and girls on bikes carried messages b/c they were much more apt to be ignored than adults doing the same thing.

If we accept that such things may happen, then we (if we're soldiers) have a real problem: what do we do about all the kids and girls running around, some of whom may indeed be 'rigged' to kill? I would find such a situation in which anyone except my buddy in uniform could be the next killer impossible to deal with.

War puts us in very bad situations; that's why, IMO, only a defensive war is even remotely justifiable.

[tocqueville]

29. yes but the one doesn't "excuse" the other....

an immediate reaction in panic, anger etc... is understandable (while still being condemnable)

but burning the next village in retaliation isn't excusable. There are plenty of similar stories in other wars where the perpetrators have been condemned with a an absolute consensus. The problem is when it happens to your OWN soldiers (and it applies to any country).

This is a bit the same than the "torture justification". Torturing the suspect who knows where the atomic bomb about to explode is hidden, can sound "justifiable" as an exception under extreme circumstances. But in reality it's very unlikely it happens in reality and is no more than a movie gimmick. But exactly the same "justification" is the used to torture ANYBODY that MIGHT know if SOMEBODY has .. plans... to SOMEDAY blow a bomb etc... and it's exactly how the Bush administration motivates Guantanamo, renditions etc...

My point is that an extreme situation cannot justify a LATER pattern of behaviour which is normally considered as a war crime. That's why the punishment must come both at local and upper level. But I agrre that the higher in the hierarchy, the harsher the punishment must be. I believe it's called the "Medina standard" after My Lai. Th eproblem is that in that later story, Calley, Medina and Nixon practically got away with it...

[bobbieinok]

36. agree that the one does not excuse the other

[Xithras]

51. The grenade thing happened quite a bit.

It's not fiction, and my uncle was in a convoy that killed a kid in Vietnam over the same thing. The VC had no qualms about exterminating people, and on occasion villages, who they thought were cooperating with the Americans. They figured out quickly that Americans like kids, so instead of killing the children of these "traitors", they would take them to the nearest American base or roadway. They'd hand the kid a grenade or strap an AP weapon to them, and tell them to walk to the Americans. The kids generally had no idea what the bombs were, and the VC would tell the kids that the American's had "dropped" it, or that the American's had candy, to get the kids to run to them.

Remember, the VC weren't stupid, and the South Vietnamese had the help of the Soviet Union during the war, including the best KGB operatives they could find. Both the Soviets and the SV knew they couldn't beat the US in an open war, so their goal was to make the war so horrific that we would get tired of fighting it and pull out. It worked.

[Raksha]

65. I believe it. My cousin is a Vietnam vet

and he told me there were indeed kids rigged with bombs, maybe hidden in a basket or something. Like most Vietnam vets, he came home opposed to the war. He said you could not tell who "the enemy" was.

[wordpix2]

17. thank you, amen and I couldn't agree more. Horror story about the kids

[tocqueville]

21. this is a completely different story and a typical "excuse"

1) this story circulates with variations and it's very difficult to know what is true or not.

2) Assuming it's true which is not unlikely, it can explain overreaction, mistakes etc... (I just saw tonight a French documentary where an US-deserter now in Canada told that he nearly killed a child in Iraq after an IED explosion that maimed one of his pals. He didn't because of the safety on his weapon. Then he decided to desert)...

3) But going IN ANGER into a village like in My Lai or here Haditha and killing civilians in cold blood because "they were there" and might in the worst case had ties to an insurgency, is nothing else than a war crime and cannot be considered falling under the rules of engagement. If any other nation (even Western) had done the same thing in a war where the US wasn't involved, the outcry in the USA had been unanimous, even from the rightwingers - maybe for a different agenda, but still...

4) so the right thing to do is to punish BOTH those who participated in the massacre and he higher levels of the hierarchy that permitted such events to take place, such as the General in charge. Going after Bush etc... is another story, because the trial must be over ALL crimes, not this one in particular. Or else we'll get a new "Saddam trial"...

[Boomer]

39. Explanations are NOT the same as excuses

You can understand the reasons people commit atrocities without condoning them. Just dismissing these explanations as "excuses" provides no insight, and therefore no possibility of avoiding these incidents in the future.

Labeling these murderers as "monsters" is a useful way to distance ourselves from the uncomfortable truth that good, ordinary people can be turned into monsters by hellish conditions.

[skylarmae]

23. You are so right. For Men and women to do something like this

is over the edge sure, but war is hell and shit happens....Putting the men and women in the position that an entire Unit is so stressed as to snap, does not warrant trial and prison, but mental and spiritual healings....IMHO, of course.

Our vets returning from Viet Nam had, and so many still have, psychological problems. PTSD is real and nothing to joke about or ignore or wish away...

My heart goes out to these men and their families.

[TexasLawyer]

33. Thanks for that story

Excellent perspective, and an excellent moral at the end.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

37. i can't believe i got so much flack over it. I mean why call my pal a liar

I just hate them getting tried, while we ALL act like ostriches by leaving them "in harms way." Anyone that pays U.S. taxes is guilty. Funding atrocities is consummate to committing them. I feel, we as Americans, must understand how our troops feel but as citizens of humanity, we must look to the heart of an Iraqi mother mourning her murdered child.

[yardwork]

40. I agree with you. I knew this would happen - war breeds atrocities

I appreciate your posts, and those of everyone else who is trying to end this insanity and get our troops home. Thank you for posting the photo of the woman and dead child.

[TexasLawyer]

42. I abhor what happened

but I also recognize that war does things to people and creates situations that spiral quickly out of control.

If I was 18, had been shot at for the last 8 months, had many close brushes with death, had been riding around on aimless "missions" scared out of my wits, and suddenly witnessed my buddy's head blown apart, I cannot say for sure that my mind and basic moral resolve wouldn't shatter. And I am a mild-mannered "soccer-mom".

Especially this war, where the "enemy" is everybody and nobody, where IEDs and mortars appear from nowhere, and where even the "mission" is a mystery. Some soldiers will inevitibly get caught up in a perfect storm of fear, blind anger, frustration, blood-lust and revenge.

That's why wars should only be fought when absolutely necessary. And that's why the people who brought us this war-- Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rice, and the whole lot of them-- need to be on trial for Haditha.

And Fallujah. And for the rest of Iraq. Bastards!

[sproutster]

60. Wow, you have no issues with the one who HEAD SHOTTED CHILDREN UNDER 7??

Screw that, NOTHING short of brainwashing would make me do that.

Sure accidents would happen, sure I could accidently do something in fear, but the story says they were on their knees with their hands above their heads. Yea, it's Bushes fault you blew away that three year old. Get a grip.

Yes, it should go up the chain, but I cannot believe anything in this world would or could make me do that in cold blood. I would shoot myself first.

[Ladyhawk]

44. Yes and then the same poster questioned a direct eyewitness account of

a similar incident. Some people just don't want to consider such things, I guess. :shrug:

[zulchzulu]

41. Shock and Awe = 500,000 Hadithas

I'm just giving a rough estimate.

Bush and ANYONE in his Administration who supported the PNAC plan to attack Iraq unilaterally after they allowed or participated in planning directly in the 911 attacks should simply be treated as cold-hearted, calculating murderers under the laws of the Geneva Convention.

They will fight the law...and the law will win.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

45. i pray you are right but something tells me they will rise above the law

like a phoenix and fly away with their bloody loot.

[malaise]

54. I hope you're listening to the

goons like Dan Abrams and Joe Scarborough bringing on marines on their programs to make excuses for this slaughter. Bush invaded a sovereign state illegally and Iraqis have every right to fight back. Nothing can justify this act. Fuck Bush -to the Hague.

[marions ghost]

48. I couldn't agree more

The criminals at the top are the ones who should pay the most. Let's not lose focus on that while they try to scapegoat soldiers who have stepped across an all too thin line.

Anyone in combat can go insane --esp when a war is insane to begin with.

[wellst0nev0ter]

52. I'll Bet That Guy Didn't Serve Three Tours Of Vietnam

Like the Haditha guys did in Eye-Rack

[Jeffersons Ghost]

53. While I refuse to make assumptions, your right about one thing

our troops are hideously overextended and highly strung right now. We better bring them home soon or prepare to face far greater horrors than Haditha.

[newspeak]

55. yes, I've heard of children and babies being used

as booby traps in Vietnam. Then, there was the explanation the Vietnamese have a different culture, they're not like us-see it's different. I mean we care about babies but they don't--see they use them as booby traps. Yes, Vietnam has a different culture, but most Vietnamese parents do love their children-those few who used children as booby traps are as vile as those who cold-blooded ly murder children. It's an excuse--we know that the phoenix project targeted civilians in Vietnam-cold blooded murder, make them fear us, give a message to the Viet Cong. But, there is no excuse-it was wrong then and it is wrong now. You have a stooge soldier on TV stating how insurgents were putting children in front of them and had cameras to film when soldiers shot--is it true or not? Sounds like an excuse to me. Now, I did read that some American soldiers gave Iraqi children candy in the street so that the children were shields against attacks against the soldiers. The point is, if you have a child staring you in the eyes, tears streaming down their face in fear and screaming-no weapon, no bomb-just a pitiful little face staring at you in fear and you shoot. It is cold blooded murder, I don't care what culture, I don't care what color--it's cold blooded murder. No excuses!!!!!

[ismnotwasm]

57. I wasn't there

But I've talked with VA advocates who knew similar stories. I've heard different types of stories from Vietnam era vets themselves I've cared for over the years. Heartbreaking.

On the other hand, my daughter, before she left the army told me not to be surprised at ANY news I heard. Soldiers who should have been chaptered out were/are not. She spent nine years in the military. She left in disgust.

I'll always believe war is an unnatural extreme stress state, and any human being exposed to it is capable of both the darkest atrocities and the most incredible heroism. No act, and I mean NO act out of war would surprise me. It was only a matter of time before something like this happened, still I hope with all my heart that the stories are not true.

I believe soldiers need to be accountable, but I also agree--Start at the top. If bush is the so-called Commander in Chief, let him go on trial first. Then work the way down. Nothing would please me more than to see those responsible for the war in the first place on trial for war crimes. Or as you say, murder and crimes against humanity.

[slater71]

58. Over the wire

Your story jogged my memory a little. I had a friend of mine I served with during Viet Nam. He related to me a similar story about having to shot a child coming over the wire with a grenade. He was on guard duty out in the bush while his fellow troops got some shuteye. He said they try to come into the camp and jump into a tent and pull the pin on the grenade. He said he had to kill the kid because the next night when he was sleeping he would want the next guy on guard duty would do the same for him. He lives with it every day for some 35+ years now. He did what he had to do. As for Iraq, I am not so sure. They could of snapped. It is not an excuse but a lot of people just don`t know what it is like day after day.

[in_cog_ni_to]

61. The sound of gunfire screwed them up too. The sounds war. : (

I went to school with a guy who came home from Nam a completely different KID. I'll never forget the night we were at our local State park and we had taken some firecrackers with us to celebrate the 4th of July. When the first cracker went off, the Nam Vet took a dive under the picnic table and wouldn't come out. He just laid there shaking and crying in a huddle. It was so damn sad! War screws up everyone...except the fucking warmongers who start them!

The cabal belongs at The Hague and I hoe they eventually end up there.

[newspeak]

64. yes, war dehumanizes people

People must be dehumanized in order to cold blooded ly kill them. Your not killing children or innocent people, your killing gooks, sand niggers, or whatever the flavor of the day. But there is no honor in killing the innocent and there were/are honorable soldiers who uphold their humanity. The hero of My Lai stopped the killing; where is the hero of Haditha? After all, the Jews were not people, they were vermin that needed to be put out of their misery (extreme sarcasm). And as Hitler stated, if he did not have the jews to scapegoat, he would have had to find another. In order to seize power, control the masses and make a bloody fortune for your friends, you must have an enemy; and what better way to advance your agenda by dehumanizing the enemy of the time.