When it comes to illegal immigration I have yet to hear ONE word against

[noahmijo]

going after those who are actually RESPONSIBLE for illegal immigration-The private businessmen who actually HIRE the illegals so they don't have to pay ::gasp:: an AMERICAN worker a fair wage instead they get to fuck over some brown person.

Not ONE every single Republican running for Janet's spot here in the White Christian Republic of Arizona is centering their campaign on "Conservative Reform!! build more walls!!" "Bring more troops to the border!!" "Let's slap schoolteachers with felonies if they fail to report illegal immigrant children!! (prop 200)

But not a SINGLE solitary bill or even idea that states any sort of punishment against the guy who hires illegals to clean his hotels or do the housework so that his wife can fry herself at the nearest tanning salon.




The stupidity and bigotry is just astonishing to me in this state I really really hope this state turns more progressive in the coming years otherwise that's it I am getting the fuck out I will not live in a state that overwhelmingly agrees to force my fiance to report every brown skinned kid who happens to be in her classroom.

[genieroze]

1. Got to punish the brown people for being slaves. Is history repeating

itself?

[MadMaddie]

2. Of course they are not going to go after the businessess

The businesses pay taxes....they pay big money to the Republican party....

What they are focused on are Hispanic immigration....they aren't looking at any other culture...this is going to blow up in their faces....

[babylonsister]

3. I've been chastised for calling it racism, but that's what it seems

like to me. Living in Texas, I have a friend who refuses to go to any establishment that closed to allow their employees to demonstrate. Stupid and bigoted? Yep. My only consolation is she hates Il Dunce with a white-hot passion. Where she got her passion to hate Mexicans? I don't know.
As for holding companies responsible, in this era of corporate excess encouraged by this admin, ain't gonna happen!

[hansberrym]

7. Perhaps her white-hot hatred of Bush has nothing to do with

the color of his skin.

And maybe, just maybe, her opposition to illegal immigration has nothing whatever to do with the color of the illegals skin.

[babylonsister]

47. Now there you would be wrong; she's been prejudiced for

as long as I've known her though I don't know why; especially odd when I know she has Hispanic friends.

[jerry611]

9. It appears like racism because the situation is out of control

If we controlled the immigration and secured the border...there would be no evidence of racism at all.

[Scoody Boo]

16. I'm from Mexico...

and I thought the whole protest thing was a farce. I came here legally and feel that it I jumped through all of those hoops why should everyone else.

[noahmijo]

21. How long ago did you come here legally?

Because it's VERY different today than it was 10 years ago...back then it wasn't so bad today it is ridiculous----you're looking at a 7-15 year waiting period and that's if the govt doesn't lose any of your documents.

I have a friend who earned his citizenship by joining the army and fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.....and they still lost his fucking papers.

The whole protest thing is completely misunderstood by my fellow Mexicans which is amazing to me. The point of the protests was essentially based on this scenario-employer entices illegal to come over and work. Employer and illegal establish relationship possibly employer even says he/she is working to get illegal to become a citizen but it may take time but who knows with luck it can happen within 4-5 years.

Illegal busts his/her ass for about 2 years, does not commit any crimes, actually pays taxes (they purchase things just like you and me at the same sales tax rate) and all of a sudden they're told that pretty soon they're gonna have to pack their shit and go away regardless of what relationships they've established regardless of what their employer promised them or the fact that maybe the employer is only 2 years away from having the illegal gain full citizenship-but that's too much time under the new bill.

THAT'S what the "farce" protests were all about here in Az

[Scoody Boo]

49. The "farce" was...

waving the Mexican flag in the face of the country they "supposedly" want to be a part of.

I came here to be an American and it stands as the proudest moment of my life when I fially became one.

If a person wants to immigrate here but his loyalties will be else where, they should not even be allowed to be here.

If it takes that long to immigrate here it is because of how many are here already.

[Tansy_Gold]

55. Waving the Mexican flag?

I have to laugh every time I hear people get outraged over this issue.

Nobody (much) protests the many St. Patrick's Day events that honor "Irish" heritage. I've personally spent a lot of time and money at Celtic Festivals that feature Canadian, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, British, and other banners of national/ethnic heritage. I don't see anyone suggesting that people from European backgrounds should do away with their "pride" in their ethnicity.

And that's all I see the waving of the Mexican flag is -- it's not a slap in the face of "America" so much as it's a claim that someone else is proud of their heritage, glad to be where they are, and eager to be recognized and treated like a human being.

Now, I'm not a flag-waver. I don't believe Mother Nature painted lines on the planet that indicate where a person is and isn't "legal." I don't believe in borders of any kind, and walls not at all. Maybe someday a US border guard or Minuteman (ugh) will shoot some poor kid climbing over The Wall and let them die a slow horrible death in front of the media and everyone, the way I remember the East German guards doing back in the 60s in Berlin. His name was Peter, that's all I remember, but the incident stuck in my memory as one of the most barbarous ever commited by humans against their own kind. And I don't ever want it repeated, not in "my" country or any other.

No, I'm not Mexican, to answer any questions. I live in Arizona where I have a lot of friends and acquaintances of Mexican heritage. I never ask to see their papers.


Tansy Gold

[Mugu]

72. National pride is a two way street.

The incident of Mexican flag waving during the protests did tremendous damage to their cause. I was sitting in a coffee shop when they showed that clip on TV. People that usually didn’t pay much attention to current events were glued to the television. The only attitude that I heard was that if Mexico is so wonderful then maybe it’s time to go home.

That was one of the worst cases of political tone deafness that I have ever witnessed.

Regards,

Mugu

[noahmijo]

59. That's your outrage? something tells me that someone else worked

hard for your legal status here and once again you just like the white supremacists here in Arizona you direct the negative energy towards the Mexicans-no peep towards the very reason for them being here the very entity that is creating demand for them-the employers who hire them.


It should also be pointed out that the Mexican flag flew over the land of Arizona LONG before Betsy Ross was even born.

[RagingInMiami]

23. Where were you born?

[Scoody Boo]

48. I was born in the state of Coahuila. n/t

[RagingInMiami]

85. I knew you were a troll

You were everything and nothing but a bullshitter.

[No Exit]

45. Heartwarming anecdote:

You'll be pleased to know that Il Dunce's (great name!) eagerness to keep illegal immigrants flowing into the country actually caused my usually-rather-bigoted repuke-loving friend to say something nice about... Mexicans! "Well, one thing you gotta say about them... they sure do work all the time."

I dropped part of my sesame chicken when he said it. (We were eating in a Chinese restaurant.) I wanted to burst out laughing: this man is the typical Bush-lover who usually revels in his parochialism.

So I seized the chance to try out my new patented Wingnut-Head-Exploder on him. I said, "Let's have Jeb as our next president so we can have a Mexican-born first lady!"

I love it when they get all conflicted!

[RagingInMiami]

4. I hated Arizona when I lived there

I now live in Florida, which has a fair share of problems, but it beats Arizona and its anti-Hispanic attitude.

[951-Riverside]

5. The whole immigration "debate" is a smoke screen

These repukes know they can't win on record so they need something to fool the people, immigration is the perfect smoke screen to throw in peoples faces. Since Bush decided to put National Guard troops on the border I haven't heard a peep from these so-called immigration activists you'd think Lord Pissypants decision would bring out immigrants in droves but NOOOO nothing. I think the repukes were secretly orchestrating and funding the protests and walkouts.

As for the fringe immigration exploitation activists who like to call people that don't support full blown exploitation names such as racists, nazi, skinheads, etc they are no better than the freeps who called people "un american" during the 2004 debacle. They have nothing but stupid one liners and slogans they can't sensibly argue.

Edit: If any are here illegally they should have their asses sent right back to , our immigration has no problem deporting cubans, africans, europeans, asians, etc.

[jerry611]

10. That's BS

The GOP is being torn apart with this issue. Look at the polls. Congress got sent 10,000 bricks in the mail by voters. Bush's approval rating is about as low as it can possibly go. And the polls show the GOP losing major ground on this issue.

[951-Riverside]

12. Re: "The GOP is being torn apart with this issue."

Oh really?

Because as I see it the "morans" on the right who are against illegal are also going to vote republican anyway also the GOP is looking beyond Bush and reaching out to potential hispanic votes. Just like the Democratic party win over the black vote because of their stance on civil rights the GOP is desperately searching for that same assured vote and they believe they are going to getting it from the hispanic base.

[jerry611]

17. Most arn't even going to vote

And dont be mistaken, there are MANY democrats very much against illegal immigration. My father is a big-time liberal. He's liberal on everything. But he told me several times already that he will not vote for any candidate that favors open borders or amnesty.

And this issue will just continue and continue to grow. Because every year anther million comes across that border.

You can sit there and live in your little fantasy world that this is a made up issue, but it isn't. I know the GOP has made up issues in the past. But this isn't one of them. This and the port deal has destroyed the GOP base. And in 2008, it will destroy the Democratic base as well.

[Cleita]

14. The GOP framed this issue. That is the GOP who is in power.

The rest don't matter. You won't hear a thing about this after November.

[jerry611]

15. Wanna make a bet?

This issue is going to spread into 2008 if it isn't taken care of this year. And it will hurt Democrats at that point.

Look at the polls...the people want the border secure. It is a major issue.

[Cleita]

19. Yes, it is going to spread into 2008. That's the plan.

But you know that don't you? So why are you siding with the Republicans? Democrats couldn't be anymore hurt by RW cheating by now. By letting them frame the debate, like we have in the past we lose like we have in the past. It's time to speak the truth and call the BS what it is "caca del toro".

[jerry611]

25. Beacuse I think it is wrong

It is wrong for corporations to exploit foreign workers. It is wrong to not secure our border and protect our soverignty. It is wrong for the American tax payer to pay and provide for 50 million new arrivals within 20 years when we can't even afford to provide for our own people. It is wrong to allow just anyone to walk across our border. It is wrong to allow 10-20 million illegal aliens in the United States to stay and apply for citizenship before the countless millions waiting in line outside the country.

I am not looking at this as potential votes down the line. We are talking about human beings being exploited by both parties for political and/or economic gain of a few elites.

I want the border secured. I want the corporations and businesses (no matter how large or small) prosecuted if they hire illegals. And I want illegals to leave the country in order APPLY for citizenship.
And I don't give a flying rats ass who benefits politically in the end. I want to do what I think is right for the United States of America.

[Cleita]

26. Anyone who thinks we can secure our borders is naive.

What we need to do is prevent criminals and terrorists from crossing our borders, not people who want to work.

Fences don't do that. Good intelligence does. However, what we have for the FBI and CIA today is a joke thanks to President "bringemon".

[jerry611]

27. It worked for the Chinese and Israelis

China built the Great Wall and it stopped the Monguls.

In the areas that Israel built their wall, terrorism has dropped almost 90%.

I know it won't stop everyone, but right now 700,000 to 1 million illegal aliens are coming across the border each year. If a fense drops that number to 100,000.... it is worth it.

We cannot take care of our own people. Yet you think it is OK that over the next 20 years we can take in 50+ million people? All of whom don't have two pennies to rub together. We are going to be $10 trillion dollars in debt by 2008. Our schools are filled to capacity and we don't have enough teachers. 40 million Americans don't have health insurance. Social Security and medicare are failing. And you want to add 50 million poor to our population?
That right there is pure 100% insanity.

How stupid this country has become! Dumb! If we don't stop this invasion of immigrants, we will become a 3rd world country by 2030.

[Cleita]

31. The Great Wall of China didn't stop the Mongols.

The Kublai Kahn, who was emperor of China when Marco Polo went there was a Mongol, who had conquered the Chinese by breaching the Great Wall of China with his hordes.

[GreenArrow]

61. nice irony

.

[Tansy_Gold]

62. "How stupid this country has become!" Well, yeah, but. . . .

. . . . not for the reasons you're suggesting.

First of all, if there are 12,000,000 undocumented persons in this country already, what do you propose be done with them? Round them up and send them back? At what outrageous cost? Sure, there are a lot of them in Arizona and Texas and California. . . and Colorado. . . and Iowa. . . and Illinois. . . and ohmifreakinggod, they're everywhere! Who do you suggest to do the rounding up?

A lot of these people have fraudulent ID papers. How do you propose we sort out the legals from the look-alikes? Just ship 'em all back and let Vicente sort 'em out?? :sarcasm: Don't forget, mijo, that there are millions of very legal Americans of Hispanic descent, and under some scenarios, you'd have us shipping ALL of them back.

Many of the "employers" are individuals who need a little yard work done or some construction or some clean-up. They cruise into the local Home Depot or Lowe's parking lot and select a couple of "day laborers" who are waiting in the shade of a palo verde tree for just that kind of opportunity. The workers get paid in cash, no paperwork is ever filed, and everyone's happy. The workers aren't taking "jobs" away from "Americans," because the employers in this case don't want employees. They want someone to do a one- or maybe two-day job.

Going after long-term employers, whether they're restaurant or hotel operators, construction companies, food processing plants, whatever, isn't on the GOP agenda. It's not going to happen because the business community WANTS those low-wage workers and it wants them kept silent and afraid and vulnerable. The GOP wants the $$$ from the businesses, so it's going to do nothing to change the status quo. The GOP wants the VOTES from the anti-immigrationists so it will hype the rhetoric about plans to "do something," but in the end it will be sure nothing is actually done.

As far as courting the VOTES of the Hispanics -- whether they are Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Guatemalan, etc. -- the GOP does not really want them, because then they might put up their own GOP candidates. It's a fine line the GOP walks when they want to sucker in some votes but not give any real voice to those voters. (Their history with African Americans is a good example.)

There's no PRACTICAL solution that involves removing the people already here, and there's no PRACTICAL solution that keeps more from coming in, because those are just band-aids on a sucking chest wound.

Sadly, too few people on either side of the issue are really willing to look at the real causes and do anything about THEM.

Tansy Gold

[Alcibiades]

81. Cleita is right

The Republicans have had unified one-party control of the government for 6 years (except for the senate early in Bush's first term), yet they have not addressed this issue until now. Why? Because the Republicans are trying to change the subject here, and focus attention on anything other than their disastrous performance in government. I think it would be far better to address this issue when we have a Democratic Congress.

In the meantime, I keep thinking they will do a prop 187 on this one by proposing something so outrageous that Hispanics become a 95% Democratic voting bloc for a generation.

[ComerPerro]

60. But who do you think these idiots are gonna vote for? Dems? Fuck no

as bad as they think the Republicans are, they are constantly reminded that the Dems are worse.


The new talking point:

Republicans aren't doing anything, but only because Democrats stop them (somehow)

[unlawflcombatnt]

6. Do you really want employers prosecuted?

If you've been reading this board, you've seen plenty of people advocating prosecution of employers, including myself.

But that's not really your point, is it? It's just another fake talking point that you Bush-loving open-borders advocates barf up until someone calls your bluff. Then you change back to your old tactics of calling everyone that disagrees with you a "racist" or a "xenophobe."

My preference is to throw employers in jail who hire illegal immigrants. Is that what you'd really advocate? Or do you really just want to eliminate our borders and let all workers from any country come here and compete with American citizens, and drive down American wages to those of a 3rd-world country? I think it's the latter.

I don't think you're the slightest bit interested in "prosecuting employers." It just makes for a good opening for your race-baiting rant.

[noahmijo]

8. Wow. Did you pick the wrong person to throw this at

For starters buddy I am of Mexican descent-my first language was Spanish.

Secondly I have many family members who are directly impacted by our bullshit immigration laws-from my cousin who was born here legally who was accused of being here illegally and was forced out of school for two weeks until my aunt got a lawyer and threatened to sue the school, to my other cousin who was educated here and despite this is constantly put on waiting lists to become a citizen here.

The main reason I hate the notion of illegals being hired is because they have no rights here-they can be abused they can be spit on by employers who would they turn to? that is the main reason I hate employers who hire illegals-because more often than not they really do treat them like subhumans-I'm sure with your boldness in responding to my post you all about this don't you because like me you've seen this sort of behavior firsthand right?


This isn't a "race-baiting" rant this is just a rant due to the excess number of Republicans I see campaigning out here on the illegal issue all with one thing in common which the people eat up like breakfast cereal-GO AFTER THE ILLEGALS NOT THE EMPLOYERS and it pisses me off

[Cleita]

18. Actually, the term is "unauthorized labor" among those who

actually study the issue, meaning that both parties are guilty, the employer and employee.

That "illegal immigrant" phrase is calculated to inflame and create division among the working class. It's being deliberately thrown out there by the RW for elections. It suggests that the blame is only with the worker for breaking the law.

I personally think the law is unjust and should be changed with immigrant quotas increased to meet the labor demand.

[unlawflcombatnt]

28. Labor "Demand"

The supply of labor already exceeds demand. We don't need any more workers to "meet the demand." You're just repeating Right-Wing talking points when state we need to the "quotas increased to meet the demand."

The reason real wages are declining is because the supply of workers is exceeding the demand. When the supply of workers exceeds demand, it drives wages down. That's exactly what's happened over the last 3 years -- real wages have declined. Below is a chart of real wages from the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics.



Notice that real hourly wages have declined from $8.29/hour in December 2003 to $8.18/hour as of March 2006. That's a 1.3% decline in real wages. Weekly wages have declined from $279.50/week in December of 2002 to $276.33/week in March of 2006. That's a decline of 1.1%.

These wage declines indicate we don't have ANY increased "demand" for workers. In fact, it indicates exactly the opposite. It indicates the supply of workers is already more than the demand. We don't need to increase any "quotas" to meet the labor demand. The demand has been more than met by the 7 million illegal aliens currently working in this country.

[Cleita]

30. So who are all these farmers I see on my teevee from

the border up to Washington State who say they cannot get their crops in without the extra labor from south of the border? They aren't talking about cheap labor but ENOUGH labor.

The fact is that your good paying jobs have been outsourced to other countries and that is what is driving the wages down in those sectors, but the labor demands of the service and agricultural jobs outstrip the supply. I haven't seen any stats that state that these jobs are lower paying because of the immigrants. In my area the agricultural workers make about $10 an hour.

In the service industries like the hotel and restaurant industries they make minimum wage, which they always did as far back as I can remember and that's a long time.

[unlawflcombatnt]

39. Cheap Labor

Wrong.

The reason they don't have enough workers is because they aren't paying enough. If they paid enough, I'd go up there and help with the harvest.

If they can't get enough workers for $10/hour, then they need to pay $15/hour, $20/hour, or more. That's simple supply and demand dynamics. Increase the pay and you'll get more workers. This has nothing to do with not having enough workers and everything to do with keeping wages down.

Regarding workers in the hotel and restaurant industries, did it ever occur to you that the minimum wage may be less than the market rate? Maybe hotels and restaurants need to pay more than the minimum wage to get enough workers. Of course, they'll never have to if we let them keep hiring illegal immigrants for less, will they?

The labor demands are NOT outstripping the supply in ANY industry. Those industries that need more workers need to raise wages. It's that simple. We have 227 million working age Americans in this country. Of that, 143 million are employed. We have more than enough workers in this country. We just have a "shortage" of employers who are willing to pay enough to hire them.

[Yupster]

77. Not down here in the oilpatch it doesn't

We're screaming for workers down here, and not just in the oilfields.

The well paid oil jobs are sucking workers from every other occupattion from teacher to parks department worker so that just about every business in town has a help wanted sign.

The only employees available are Mexican or Mexican-American, and they are moving quickly up the employment ladder in the oil industry.

Most people wouldn't guess it, but the oil industry in America is becomming largely a Mexican-American occupation, only because they are the only ones available down here looking for work. They are hard workers in general and are moving up the ladder quickly, and the oil companies are recognizing the talent and going with it.

I see posts from time to time to the point of "I've been unemployed for three years and there are no jobs," and I try not to be mean when I say "come to West Texas man. We're crying for workers down here. Any kind of workers."

By the way, if we're going to arrest employees of illegals, I'm first in line. I use yard crews to do my landscaping and I haven't checked their green cards in years. My guess is more than half of them have been illegals over the years.

[The Straight Story]

11. Who is more responsible? The business or the person?

If you snuck across a border to get a good job, would you be responsible or the business that hired you? Maybe both?

Both know it is wrong and illegal. Both do it for selfish reasons (money). So both need to be curtailed IMHO.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lib Grrrrl]

13. I Agree With You

I don't want the immigrants here because they DO drive down wages. But I would like to see the fucking assholes who underpay and exploit these people cut off at the knees. Make other businessmen think twice before fucking over their workers!

[Cleita]

24. People keep saying the undocumented workers drive down wages

yet no one is able to provide any studies on this. I think these talking points have been passed along from the mouths of Rush, Sean and Bill. I hate to see them repeated on DU all the time

The studies I have seen show that only the newly arrived immigrants work for less that minimum wage and not for that long. The longer they are here, the more money they earn and it's comparable to what Americans are earning in the same fields.

Now there are legal worker immigrants who work for government contractors.It was a story on the news last week. They are paid less than minimum wage. They are hired from their countries and brought here. They can't change jobs and are indentured to the companies the work for. But they are here working legally.

There is widespread abuse of these immigrants IMHO and it appears the legal ones who are guest workers are the ones making less money than minimum wage.

[unlawflcombatnt]

29. Plenty of Studies Available-you just don't want to read them

You'd rather just keep making knowingly false and illogical claims that there's no "proof." It's illogical to even claim to believe that increasing the supply of labor does not suppress wages. But you Bush-loving open borders advocates don't let that stop you. You just rant on despite the facts and when all else fails you start calling people racists.

According to economics professor George Borjas, immigration reduces the average annual earnings of U.S.-born men by an estimated $1,700, or roughly 4%. (See http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=1804778&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 )
If that reduction is applied to the roughly 143 million employed Americans, that reduces aggregate annual worker income by $243 billion, or $0.243 trillion. That's roughly 2% of our $12 trillion GDP. That's a loss in consumer spending of $243 billion (less taxes). Given that our entire GDP growth in 2005 was $384 billion, this is a significant amount. Considering that consumer spending is approximately 70% of GDP, that makes the "growth" in consumer spending around $269 billion.

Again, the loss of that $243 billion is no small amount. And it is also $243 billion less money that could have been taxed, costing the Federal government anywhere between $36-61 billion per year. (Increasing the taxable income of a single taxpayer making $42,500/year by $1700 increases Federal income tax by $425. Increasing taxable income of a married taxpayer filing making $42,500/year by $1700 increases Federal income tax by $255. Multiplying these numbers by 143 million amounts to $61 billion and $36 billion, respectively. Thus the income tax revenue lost is somewhere in between.)

Right-wingers will argue that this wage suppression is offset by business profits, and that these profits fuel investment. But investment capital is OVER-abundant at present. Increasing this excess even further will not result in more capital investment. It will result in higher CEO salaries, further overinvestment in the stock market, and further investment in foreign production facilities, the latter of which puts even further downward pressure on American wages.

Furthermore, business profits don't fuel consumer spending. And consumer spending is the engine that drives our economy, not investment. Without consumer spending, there are no returns on investment. And if no returns are anticipated on investment, no investment takes place.

The immigration-fueled reduction in wages does NOT help our economy. It hurts it. It reduces aggregate consumer income and the consumer spending it finances. The reduction in consumer spending reduces consumer production demand, further reducing demand for the labor to provide that production. The reduction in labor demand drives down employment and wages. The resultant labor demand reduction further reduces aggregate consumer income and further reduces consumer purchasing power.

As consumer buying power declines, so do investment opportunities, since those opportunities are created by consumer demand for production. Thus the increased profits resulting from reduction in labor costs create even more excess capital, while reducing investment opportunities still further.

Does anyone really think that wage suppression is "good" for the economy? Doesn't someone have to purchase the goods produced for business to profit? Won't reducing consumer income also reduce consumer goods purchasing? Won't a decline in consumer goods purchasing reduce business revenues and reduce potential profits? Once again, is immigration-fueled reduction in worker/consumer income really "good" for the economy?

[Cleita]

33. I don't read the right wing shit.

I have found the PEW Hispanic Center studies to be very non-partisan. Yes, and ABC, rubber stamp to all things conservative and Republican is so reliable.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unlawflcombatnt]

75. What do you read?

Anything you disagree with, you just claim is Right-Wing. The truth is, you don't want to read anything that doesn't agree with your pre-determined ideas.

Clearly there are plenty of studies showing immigration suppresses wages. There's really no debate on the issue, nor any logical argument against it. So truthfully, you really don't need to read any studies. Increasing the supply of anything reduces the price. Increasing the supply of labor reduces the price (wages) of labor. Most everyone already knows this. Again, studies to "prove" this aren't really necessary. It's fairly well accepted economic reality.

[Bridget Burke]

50. An article by George Borjas--who writes for VDARE?

Warning: Not for the weak of stomach. (Michelle Malkin also writes for VDARE.)

http://vdare.com/misc/borjas_heaven_door.htm

Peter Brimelow founded VDARE:

Keeping America White
At a meeting of 'paleoconservatives,' former Forbes editor Peter Brimelow and others sound the alarm on non-white immigration
By Heidi Beirich and Mark Potok

NEW ORLEANS -- They came from near and far, gathering inside the ritzy St. Louis Hotel for their 14th annual meeting.

There was Srdja Trifkovic, who says he is a "Byzantine man," not a Renaissance man, and who thinks that total economic collapse would be a good thing for white people. Former bank CEO David Hartman came to say that Social Security and Medicare should be halted so that whites will have more children to take care of them in their old age.

Sam Francis was there, too, comparing non-white immigrants to "foreign colonizers, like space aliens."

And then there was Peter Brimelow. Some might have expected the well-heeled financial commentator, book author and influential nativist intellectual to feel somewhat out of his element at this gathering of the very far right.

But these were very much Brimelow's people.

They call themselves paleoconservatives — but a more accurate term, and one that is actually used by many of those who attended the New Orleans meeting of the Rockford Institute's John Randolph Club, might be racial nationalists.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=285

Find a better source. If you can.

[Alcibiades]

80. Paul Craig Roberts also

For the most part, most of the stuff on VDARE is material that their members (various wingnuts, for the most part) have cross-posted from their own websites.

Still I do find myself agreeing with Paul Craig Roberts, who appears to be the token sane person. Here's his latest, from VDARE:

snip

The Evil In Our Government

By Paul Craig Roberts

Is the Bush Regime a state sponsor of terrorism?

A powerful case can be made that it is.

In the past three years the Bush Regime has murdered tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians and an unknown number of Afghan ones.

US Marines, our finest and proudest military force, are under criminal investigation for breaking into Iraqi homes and murdering entire families. In an unprecedented event, General Michael Hagee, the Marine Corps commandant, has found it necessary to fly to Iraq to tell our best trained troops to stop murdering civilians.

General Hagee found it necessary to tell the U.S. Marines: "We do not employ force just for the sake of employing force. We use lethal force only when justified, proportional, and most importantly, lawful."

The war criminals in the Bush Regime have dismissed the murders as "collateral damage," but they are in fact murders. Otherwise, there would be no criminal investigations, and the Marine commandant would not be burdened with the embarrassment of having to fly to Iraq to lecture US Marines on the lawful use of force.

snip

[jerry611]

34. I dont need to see studies

It happened to someone I know. The layed him off and gave his job to an immigrant that would work twice as much for less pay.

The unskilled labor pool will be flooded. And just like what happends with supply and demand. When supply is quickly increased and demand falls....prices drop. When unskilled labor increases faster than the demand, competition for the jobs increase and wages will decrease. That's the foundation of capitalism.

Right now, corporations don't like the middle class American worker. Americans want high wages and lots of benefits. Mexican immigrants don't. They will take jobs for below minimum wage with zero benefits. Because they are sending a lot of that money back to Mexico where, with the exchange rate, ends up being a lot of money. And the corporations LOVE that because it is saving millions of dollars.

It is estimated that illegal immigrants are sending $60 billion dollars back into Mexico every single year. This is why Vicente Fox is encouraging immigration into the US. He likes that money being flooded into his economy.

[Cleita]

35. This is the problem, it happened to this friend, this relative

and so on. This isn't evidence. This is a public forum and this is the only thing that is circulating around, no concrete evidence. I live in a highly hispanic area and when I ask around no one can tell me that they are making less because of immigrants.

Because this is a vacation and agricultural area the wages are much lower than either of the cities of SF or LA, north and south of here, but wages have not been driven down by anything and the unions are alive and well around here. All I can say is, if you aren't getting paid enough, move somewhere else where you can make more money.

I feel really bad that DUers who should know better are letting the RW define the debate and are falling for the talking points trap.

[jerry611]

38. This isn't about RW propaganda

I've felt this way for 20 years! Since 1986 I have supported no amnesty and a secure border. It has nothing to do with some RW propaganda. Stopping illegal immigration and securing our borders and ports has been a very strong political issue for me for decades.

[Cleita]

64. Yes, there are those like you and that is why the right wing

galvanized your base and you are following them right over the cliff leading those who hadn't even thought about the issue until it became a "threat". It's called baiting on wedge issues.

[Bridget Burke]

52. Those stories are "anecdotal evidence"....

Of course, sometimes they are "lies."

Since this topic became "hot" at DU, I've learned far too much about the racist underbelly of the anti-immigration movement. You are kinder than I for feeling "really bad" about DU'ers who swallow this spew without researching the sources.

[JuniperLea]

73. Not everyone who is anti immigration is racist

Why must you paint and insult with such a broad brush?

[Lib Grrrrl]

56. It's COMMON SENSE!!!

The more people to accept less jobs...the lower the going rate will become. Simple supply and demand.

If there are 3 people available for 2 jobs, you will have to pay the two a lot more than you would if there were 5 people available for the 2 jobs...it just makes common fucking sense!!

that is why I don't want immigrants here at all...legal or otherwise!

When there's enough to go around for born Americans (including and especially ME) then we can talk about immigration. Till then I say we slam the door and double dead-bolt it.

[Cleita]

63. This is something that has been drummed into our heads by

our right wing leaning teachers in economics classes. The reality is that unless you are a very specialized individual, who can do specialized things, then this might be true.

In the real world of the working class drone, lack of workers doesn't affect what an employer is willing to pay for a job. They will cast a wider hiring net, or they will scale down their operations. The only thing that forces employers to pay more is bartering whether by an individual or a union, or a law that tells them they have to pay a certain wage.

For instance, if the farmer can't get enough workers to pick his crops at a rate that he's willing to pay, he will let the crops rot in the fields. Either way he wins. The picked crop will bring him a profit. The rotting crops will bring him a profit. Why? Because when lettuce becomes scarce he can charge more for what he could get picked. It's the consumer who loses.

But go ahead and shoot yourselves in the foot again with the gun (right wing panic issues) that the neo-cons have handed you.

[Alcibiades]

82. While most economists

are right wing, this applies to economic issues, not social ones. Economists, even the right-wing ones (if not especially the right-wing ones) are in favor of the free movement of the factors of production (capital, labor, raw materials), as this is supposed to maximize efficient utilization, and thus social welfare.

From what I've read, illegal immigration does lower wages, particularly for poorly educated workers, low-skilled workers and/or those without union protection (often these things go together). You are right to say that the only thing that makes employers pay more is bartering (bargaining?) on the part of the worker, but you should recognize that the ability of any worker to demand higher wages is related to the labor supply, and the substitutability of laborers for one another.

Your lettuce argument assumes that folks don't have other sources of lettuce. If the farmer in the example is in a competitive market with many other farmers, the effect of the lettuce rotting in his fields on the overall price will be low, and he will lose out to those farmers willing to pay better wages to get more of their lettuce picked.

For support for the view that illegal immigration can lower wages for what the economists call "low-skill" workers, see:

Searching for the Effect of Immigration on the Labor Market
George J. Borjas, Richard B. Freeman, Lawrence F. Katz
American Economic Review, Vol. 86, No. 2, Papers and Proceedings of the Hundredth and Eighth Annual Meeting of the American Economic Association San Francisco, CA, January 5-7, 1996 (May, 1996) , pp. 246-251.

[Cleita]

84. Speculation.

As far as the lettuce, the major lettuce producers are concentrated in certain areas and they supply the main urban markets all over the continent. There just isn't that kind of competition you describe. Most of these are mega-corporate agricultural business, the major suppliers are.

Bargaining on wages for the so-called unskilled, low paid worker, has to be collective to be effective, which means it includes all the workers, not just the acceptable ones.

[High Plains]

65. The US economy is not a zero-sum game.

If there are more people here, they will create more jobs. Someone has to feed them and sell them things.

[unlawflcombatnt]

32. Amen

That's exactly what should happen to them.

[wiley]

22. The stupidity and bigotry in every state and every country is astonishing

Hang in there mija. The hardest working, most honest, politest group of peaceful and respectful people I know are Mexican-Americans. That's not to say that other groups of people in this country don't earn the same respect, and have over many years. The issue is the criminal elements and real security - those people of any race or ethnicity that mess it up for everyone. What is really astonishing is that Republicans and their leaders break laws at their whim and for their political and financial gain over the good of the American people and they are rarely held to account. I truly understand how some Democrats have become ardent proponents of punishing immigrants because the corporation worshipping Republicans have encouraged and ignored this lawless immigration. Fight the real enemy, not just "the other". Frustration and retribution has failed to resolve violent and nasty immigration issues for almost 250 years in this country.

[951-Riverside]

36. Hmmm.

Had I said...

The hardest working, most honest, politest group of peaceful and respectful people I know are White-Americans.

I would have been picked to pieces. I am so sick of people of a particular descent getting jobs and special treatment because they happen to be from a certain country and will work for shitty wages.

My solution: Jail the employers, get out of iraq, stop wasting money on pakistan, israel, etc instead help mexico build their nation and economy

[unlawflcombatnt]

40. Excellent Plan

Excellent Plan. As the arguments from the Bush-loving open borders dupes get weaker, their race-baiting gets louder.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[951-Riverside]

57. If you're talking to me I've never been to that site n/t

[Bridget Burke]

58. I'm responding to a message .....

From someone who HAS been to that site. Or, at least, likes posting articles from contributors to that site.

Who's next? Michelle Malkin?

[High Plains]

66. I'm getting tired of all your insults. They don't serve you well.

[wiley]

67. If your experience justified making that statement as an observation

no one would jump on you for making it. I'd ask for some examples or a reason for the statement, as I expected to receive. But a reflexive or memorized response about "White Americans" came out. I was talking ethnicity. You introduced race and the "special treatment" phrase. Really, just say what your real issue is.

[951-Riverside]

71. Fine my statement is justified by experience and observation.

Happy?

no one would jump on you for making it.

Sure.

I'd ask for some examples or a reason for the statement, as I expected to receive.

Okay you first :)

But a reflexive or memorized response about "White Americans" came out.

:cry:

I was talking ethnicity.

Actually you were referring to nationality but lets not nitpick over wording.

You introduced race and the "special treatment" phrase.

That is correct I mentioned special treatment (so?) and you introduced race, ethnicity, nationality or whatever the hell you want to call it but hey I'm nitpicking.

Really, just say what your real issue is.

I don't have an "issue" its more of an opinion and I've stated it numerous times in this thread but hell I'll say it again.

Its my opinion that illegal immigration exploitation activists are no better than the freeps. It is also my opinion that the immigration walkouts and protests were secretly funded and organized by repuke interests, like I've said before when Bush introduced his national guard plan no one organized massive protests or spoke openly against it on national TV.

[wiley]

74. Mexican-Americans is about nationality, not ethnicity

I live and interact with a very large Mexican American community that is comparable to any Italian American or Irish American community in the number of very hard workers, law abiding, respectful patriotic men and women. I was not talking about illegal immigrants from any specific nation.

Your last paragraph sounds important, but I honestly don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that Repukes secretly funded walkouts and protests to make Democrats look bad, or to rally the anti-illegal immigrant voters? If you are saying that was done at local or regional levels, I would tend to agree but have no proof other than that is the type of sleazy deceptive politicst hat define Repukes. Besides, a lot of big companies have made no secret of the fact that they really don't give a shit about where their underpaid unempowered workers come from. That doesn't mean that some or many individuals didn't decide all by themselves to participate

The national guard plan to patrol the Mexico/US border? If that's what you're talking about there may have not been massive protests but many governors, states and individuals made their opposition known. Stupid, hare-brained idea meant to pacify the more hysterical about the fact that this administration has no idea what national security is or how to even institute a program.

In any case, I have friends who have been trying to get a legal residence status in the US for almost a decade. They have renewable work visas or permanent resident cards that must be re-evaluated every 18 months. If the Repukes are unable to provide appropriate armor and supplies for the military, protect the records of tens of millions of veterans, stop the huge prostitution rings of smuggled children in the US, or establish simple laws and guidelines to facilitate legal immigration into this country, does anyone really believe they have the ability to provide the benefits or even bureaucratic structure to facilitate legal residency for 15 million illegal immigrants, while creating and running a smooth after the fact legal guest worker program?

The current Repuke administration and the gaggle of elected Republican leaders throughout the country are totally, completely incompetent. Anyone who believes that the Repukes will resolve the immigration issue better than the most inexperienced Democrat will get what they deserve. An even worse problem. I'm surprised that some Repuke moron hasn't come up with the idea of building huge production and manufacturing warehouses in Mexico and outsourcing the jobs to the 15 million illegal immigrants.

For well over 6 years the Repukes have run the House, Senate and White House, lying, stealing, cheating the American people . So if there are 15 million or more individuals who are illegally in the US, capable of evading law officers on at least a daily basis, why would anyone who cared about this country ever vote for a Repuke again? Why are they still in office? Why aren't they in jail? Gee, guess who the attorney general is.

[No Exit]

42. Long ago, G. Gordon Liddy used to talk about this.

Yes--I'm talking about that pathetic, bald, weird, Nixon-era creep, G. Gordon Liddy. He had a radio show (might still have it, I don't know) and he'd say things like, "Hey, I know a way they could check out some of these construction sites... just go stand there and yell 'IMMIGRACION!' and watch 'em disappear!"

That said, I agree that it's always about somebody's goddam PROFITS.

Yes, the employers are making (stealing) money by paying these people slave wages, and they know darn well the immigrants can't do a thing except accept whatever they, the employers, choose to pay.

But there's another dimension, too, and once again, it has to do with someone's damned PROFITS: these repuke-loving businesspeople want the immigrants here so they can sell them shit. Lots of it. If you listen to the Mexican radio stations, this becomes crystal clear. Ads, ads, ads, about "camionetas" (I think that means "truck"), etc., etc., etc.--everything from doctors to clinics to health care products to stuff to make men's erections last longer to trucks, trucks, trucks.

Isn't their altruism wonderful? They want to help the nice brown people to find The American Dream... while selling them all sorts of shit much of which they probably don't need... what a country...

To quote a very smart member of my family, "This is what happens when you have an economy instead of a culture."

[Yollam]

44. It's what I've been trying to say.

And I'm for strict border enforcement, just not for scapegoating the people who are just victims of poverty and circumstance.

[noahmijo]

46. gotta do both not just one

Strict border enforcement is the second phase in my opinion-primary source is going after the entity that creates demand i.e those who employ them.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

51. Air America Phoenix was saying go after the employers way

before this became a hot issue.

A lot of whacky ideas meet a quiet demise before being implemented here in AZ. Let's hope the one you refer to does likewise.

[Yupster]

78. The problem is that down here

the illegals I know about work for small restaurants run by Mexican-American immigrant families, they hire themselves out to do lawns, prune trees etc, and they do day labor in construction.

Go after the corporations is fine, but I don't think that's where most illegals, at least down here near the border, work. It's not nearly that organized or formal down here. It's more of catch on with who you can, often relatives.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

83. I'm down here in AZ too.

I do believe that a lot of illegals have been exploited by larger employers, corporate or not.

To me it is all such a non-debate. We've allowed it to go on all these years. I've heard story after story about exploitation, dangerous border crossings for years.

Border security when it comes to terrorism is an entirely different issue.

I think we oughta acknowledge that it has been allowed, not try to deport people merely for being illegally in country.

Focus on port security and things that will actually help homeland security rather than being a wedge issue.

Or something like that.

[tyedyeto]

54. I never hear about fines/punishment for...

companies and corporations who are hiring undocumented workers. With all the blustering by many in our gov't, no one seems to want to talk about the people hiring these workers. Why not? They also never talk about the deplorable and enslaving conditions the companies/corporations place these people, especially in the agribiz sector. Why not? Because sending them back to their home country is what many Americans want to hear.

[unlawflcombatnt]

76. Not me

I want to hear that the employer who illegally hired them was sent to jail. That's what I'd like to hear about.

[lies and propaganda]

68. well Bushie said l;iterally ONE wrod about it

he said hed go after them, what you dont believe him? :sarcasm:

That is THE problem hands down. I live in Phoenix and we need to go after the rish fucks who break the law and hire them.

[sendero]

69. Perhaps you haven't been listening..

... the only feasible solution for preventing mass immigration is to dry up the work. The easiest and best way to dry up the work would be to:

1) publicly note that as of 07/31/06, LE is going to start enforcing the law against hiring illegal workers. Punishment will be swift and severe as already provided by laws on the books

2) actually prosecute and throw the book at a few employers.

The idea that we need to round up millions of folks and deport them is nonsense spewed by people who want nothing at all to happen.

Don't worry, nothing at all is going to happen, Republicans love their slave labor and Democrats could care less about the working American. So rest easy!

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. I KNOW! THAT is where the issue lies, IMCPO. Fine the corporations

MEGA bucks for EACH illegal they hire and it would stop in a heartbeat. No jobs? No illegal immigrants...easy, peasy.

[Yupster]

79. Maybe it's different up north, but down here

near the border we see illegals mostly working in much smaller jobs than corporations.

Washing dishes and bussing tables for family owned Mexican restaurants, hiring themselves out to do yardwork, etc.

If you fined corporations down here for hiring illegals, I don't think you'd make any impact at all.

It seems like a complete disconnect from the reality of the situation at least where I live. Maybe it's different in large cities.