Haditha - "The Girls Died Screaming"

[11 Bravo]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-dreyfuss/the-girls-died-screaming_b_21870.html

My God.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

1. Give us your hearts and minds or we'll splatter them across the walls!

Sick!

[theHandpuppet]

2. That last line is an indictment that should chill us to the bone

"And I doubt Haditha is alone. The story was revealed at all only because Time magazine confronted the U.S. military with its own atrocity. How many more Hadithas are out there? Five? Ten? One hundred?"

So when does Rumsfeld share the dock with Saddam? God, we are such hypocrites!

[Marie26]

3. Did anyone see

the Iraqi ambassador on CNN? He was talking about how his nephew was killed by US troops in Haditha, a year ago. It seems like this might be part of a larger pattern.

[Skidmore]

8. I saw that.

And I commented to my husband that I hope this meant that the ambassador is willing to play hardball with * and the necons on behalf of his people.

[Marie26]

13. I liked him a lot

He was very courageous & sincere. He's not going to let this go, & used his first day on the job to highlight the abuses against the Iraqi people. At the same time, he made sure to say that most troops are acting honorably, etc. I think he's someone who can really speak for Iraqis, in a way that Americans are willing to hear. And it was disturbing to hear his list of past "incidents" in Haditha. It almost sounded like there's been a rogue unit operating there for a while. Which suggests that this was more than an isolated incident, & we might hear about other abuses in the future. It also suggests that there's a real lack of leadership from the higher officials there.

[Jigarotta]

34. Death Squad Negroponte is the high official there.

so it all makes sense.

[underpants]

4. Look let me say this

Those guys, it appears, were completely wrong. This happens in war (so I am told) but with command and control it can be limited with oversight of the brass those who do such horrible things can and are punished.

All the talk of the administration and the Marines "Bracing themselves" for what is about to be revealed really means that the Marines as a whole are getting ready for getting caught ignoring or probably covering this up. The Marines who did this are going to take the fall (as they should) just like the lower ranks did for Abu Gharib the brass is busy "bracing" itself for what happens should their protecting themselves see the light of day.

There are a lot of great Marines out there. This was a few that got out of control and should be harshly punished. Forget what it does for PR or hearts and minds and all that bullshit this is murder and the finest fighting force, a force of citizen soldiers, that the world has ever seen is better than this and they prove it everyday. The real Marines (and soldiers) don't go for this shit anymore than anyone else does.

[11 Bravo]

5. I completely agree.

35 years ago, I was in those guys shoes. On patrol in the A Shau Valley we occasionally came under fire from inside a ville. After every incident, there was usually one snuffie who wanted to zippo the whole fucking place. We never did. Never. Most of today's and yesterday's grunts are good, honorable troops who just want to do the job and get the fuck home. It's not their fault that the people in charge of crafting that job are either criminal, or incompetent, or both.
(I swore that I would never be ashamed of wearing that green suit, but this administration, and particularly this SecDef are sorely testing that promise.)

on edit: Not the SAME green suit. I was Army.

[Virginia Dare]

12. Thanks for your insight...

I never served in the military, so I have no first hand experience, therefore, I'm hesitant to judge the actions that soldiers sometimes must take in a combat situation, lightening quick decisions must be made on the ground, accidents can and do happen, and it's always regrettable.

Having said that, I will say this: If the facts prove that these citizens, including small children, were murdered in cold-blood by American Marines, there can be no excusing them. I cannot support those actions.

I think it further proves what a disastrous situation we have put our military in over there, and we must take the accountability all the way to the top.

[underpants]

14. You shouldn't be

I know you were responding to 11B but I just wanted to say this.

Passing judgement or at least offering opinions on military matters is not only for those who have served I hate hearing that being implied. The military is not parallel or seperate from the rest of the Federal government so it is accountable to everyone just like Agriculture or the CIA or Commerce is. I don't mean this as a slap at the military (many would see it that way) but they are paid by the US Treasury so that is your money and they are government employees.

You should never feel pressured to not discuss or comment on military matters. In fact having never been in the service you would bring an outlook on it that is sorely needed.

See Dhalgren's post below.

[Booster]

42. I kind of feel the same as Virginia Dare. I had this discussion with

my Marine nephew yesterday, and I told him if these Marines did this they need to be dealt the harshest of punishment, but I would not pre-judge them from my chair in front of the TV because I have never been put in the kind of situation they are in. I don't know if I'd curl up in a ball and whimper and cry, or shoot everything that moved in front of me. The most hostile anyone has ever gotten to me was a really, really dirty look or possibly the middle finger, but no one has ever threatened me with bodily harm in any way. Just saying, I really don't know what I'd do.

[Lasher]

15. The Enemy In Your Hands

Remember that card? I think all you Vietnam vets were issued one, which was signed by your Commander in Chief.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/12/7/104826/856

I don't know if the card helped discourage abuse (I wasn't there, I got lucky and was sent to South Korea instead when I was drafted) but at least it was an effort to prevent war crimes. I know of no similar precaution that has been taken in more recent times.

[atreides1]

6. I Agree With You to A Point

But there's a saying we had when I was in the Army, "it takes 10 that a boy, to make up for one oh shit". With 24 dead civilians that number is multiplied a thousanddfold.

And before you start painting the "real Marines" with that broad brush, you better make sure that they "don't go for this shit", because I think you might be wrong, and that only a few find this
act reprehensible, while some are trying to justify what happened.

[underpants]

7. Not to get in an argument...but...

I know that there is a sizeable part of the Corp and those surrounding them who will rush to defend each and every member no matter what. I myself was doubtful (I was a Cav Scout not Marine) until recently. What I mean is that people who step back and don't immediately think they are being attacked see that this is wrong. I talked to a few in my family and they agree-this is terrible and there should be just swift punishment but no making of an example only what UCMJ calls for. They are sickened by this and think that it cheapens the whole Corp AND they think that if it was covered up the brass needs to fall for this too (not just losing some rank either).

We learned from some bad mistakes over the years and this was supposed to be accounted for, it usually is but clearly not always.

[MADem]

9. I'm with you...that "Once a Marine, always a Marine" only goes up to a

point. When you dishonor your branch of service, you're an asshole. And when you do it in this fashion, you're a total asshole, and then some....

It's not the entire rank and file that are involved in this coverup, it's the top brass, and their civilian "leadership" (I must use that word lightly, given the quality of supervision and oversight they provide).

[newspeak]

33. yeah, and there are those who would not

defend their fellow comrades in murdering children. Look at My Lai, it was a soldier who held other soldiers at gunpoint to stop the killing. Little girls screaming while they're being shot? My God, where is the humanity? Right now, I really feel more for the act that was committed than the Marines saving face. I feel for those Marines who live with honor and obey the rules of war, but these acts of violence upon the citizenry, in an illegal war no less, is primary in my mind.

[Dhalgren]

10. Our military is no longer made up of "citizen soldiers".

Soldiers are still "citizens", but they are now "professional" soldiers - more on a par with the French Foreign Legion (also a "fine fighting force"). And there have been many "fine fighting forces" in the past; the Mongol Horde was a fine fighting force, the Roman Legions were a fine fighting force, the Assyrian army was a fine fighting force. Being a fine fighting force does not make that force immune from criminality. And it doesn't make any difference how high up the chain the criminality goes (and I think it goes all the way to Dictator Bush), the one who pulled the trigger has committed the crime. One of the main reasons for having a "citizen army", made up of compulsory conscripts, is that it would be more difficult for the military to function in a vacuum. The government didn't do away with the draft because it was "wrong", they did away with the draft because real "citizen soldiers" are harder to deal with and less likely to "go along"...

[Roland99]

21. Throw soldiers, trained to kill, into an impossible situation and...

it then becomes inevitable that some will crack and slaughter innocents like that. I'm sure it's happened in every war/police action/skirmish/etc. in which the US (hell, any country) has been involved.

What does it mean in the long-run? That the plan has failed and the soldiers have been there too long.

[Solon]

39. That's the "Real Scotsman" fallacy...

The murderers who committed these atrocities are JUST as much "REAL" Soldiers as the rest of the Marine Corps and all other armed servicepeople in Iraq. This "Finest fighting force" shit has GOT to stop, we haven't fought a war against an enemy on EQUAL ground since the Korean war at best. Since then we have been a bully, and the armed forces have been the gun. Plain and simple, we can kick anyones ass, so we do it for kicks, and we are supposed to laud those who participate? What type of bullshit is that?

[flyarm]

11. k&r and sick ..just sick ....i am ashamed ..to be american...n/t

[Loge23]

16. The blame lies with those who ordered this.

The massacre at Haditha were spontaneous, mad, acts of murder, not "ordered". But the true blame lies with those who sent these Marines into battle and out of their minds.
These "men" - the suits - should be brought to justice in an international court. It is a grand farce to haul Hussein into court while prolific international criminals wrap themselves in the flag of so many who fought courageously and selflessly for freedom.
I am against war of any kind. War is a sure indication of how far we, as humans, still have to grow.
So many veterans I know have a strong and silent sense of the horror and senselessness of war. My best hope for this country is that our current military members realize how they are being manipulated by criminals and lead the nation in rising up against them.
They are sworn to defend our freedom. It's time to get started.

[951-Riverside]

17. But but but but they lost a man in that area just a day before

I think we need to think about the trooooops first, they go through alot of stress protectin' our freedoms,.,.,,, if anything these guys en-volved need our love and prayers!!!!

:sarcasm:

[gully]

18. Yeah, and the man was killed by babies on a rampage.

adding to your :sarcasm:

[bdamomma]

27. protecting our freedoms???

Bush should have finished looking for Osama in Afghanistan, and Afghanistan's taliban is in control again. We had no business in Iraq, no business at all. WMD's in Iraq which were non existent.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

19. that's strong stuff at the OP link...

And this:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-dreyfuss/the-girls-died-screaming_b_21870.html

The Marines moved to the house next door...

Inside were 43-year-old Khafif, 41-year-old Aeda Yasin Ahmed, an 8-year-old son, five young daughters and a 1-year-old girl staying with the family, according to death certificates and neighbors.

The Marines shot them at close range and hurled grenades into the kitchen and bathroom, survivors and neighbors said later. Khafif's pleas could be heard across the neighborhood. Four of the girls died screaming.

So far, except for Murtha and a handful of others, there have few expressions of outrage from American politicians. (I did a search for "Hillary Clinton" and "Haditha" and it came up empty. Does anyone know if the warlike New York senator gives a damn about the innocents of Haditha?)

What strikes me is the parallel with the trial of Saddam Hussein. Saddam is on trial for war crimes committed in his name in a small Iraqi city. In that case, terrorists tied to the party of Al Dawa tried to assassinate the Iraqi leader. In retaliation, Iraqi forces are said to have killed scores of residents after arresting hundreds. So what, exactly, is the difference here? On behalf of President Bush, the U.S. Marines - whose culpability reportedly reaches far up the command - slaughtered dozens. Will the president be put in the dock, surrounded by Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, and the rest? It's no wonder that in 2001 Bush opposed the International Criminal Court in the Netherlands. That ought not to stop the creation of a war crimes tribunal.

[newspeak]

20. do any of you remember the story

we had it on DU, where a Lt. was talking about a place in Iraq where they were guarding and some Iraqi men were hired to also help guard there. Another group of US soldiers came to the area and shot the Iraqis that the Lt. and his men had befriended. He was so incensed, he went to his commander who shrugged it off and said it was something like body count. Another words, it didn't matter if they were insurgents or not, they were just a body count for their report. Does anyone remember that story?

[Ms. Clio]

25. I do remember that story

I'll look for it in my archives.

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. They have quotas to meet?

:wtf:

[bdamomma]

28. ICC

I wish they would abandon their policy and say that agreement is null and void and these criminals could be prosecuted.

[Terran1212]

22. "And I doubt Haditha is alone."

"And I doubt Haditha is alone. The story was revealed at all only because Time magazine confronted the U.S. military with its own atrocity. How many more Hadithas are out there? Five? Ten? One hundred?"

[jpevahouse]

31. I agree

This could be the tip of a very ugly iceberg.

[The Stranger]

23. Murder.

[DixieBlue]

24. No words.

That makes me want to sob.

[bdamomma]

26. this was done to avenge the death of their friend

to lash out at innocent civilians, this is sick, this unrelenting death is in our name.

[jpevahouse]

29. Fallujah

He we forgotten Fallujah where a whole city was subject to the revenge of American troops for the killing of four mercenaries?

[newspeak]

32. have not forgot Fallujah.

And, didn't Fallujah happen after Bush was re-selected? After Bush won, I thought the violence is now going to escalate. And, it did. I believe it was Mike Malloy on AAR last night--his voice was so resigned and he sounded so disgusted and sad. Anyway, he was reading quotes from some of our coalition fighters and those quotes were pretty damning about some of our troops. One wrote that he would rather fight alongside a Russian soldier after seeing the inhumanity of some of the American soldiers. Some were comparing some of our soldiers with the Nazis. It was quite disturbing. I am saying "some" of our soldiers because there are good kids over there, ones who still have empathy and a conscience--who do not consider the Iraqis as "towelheads" or "brown people" who should all be murdered. My daughter is in the military, and I can tell you she would disobey an order if it went against her conscience or against the Geneva Convention. She's that assertive and believes in her beliefs--she would accept the consequences of her actions and we would be proud of her for it. We know where the buck stops and it's not at just the soldiers who committed these crimes.

[LaCrosseDem]

35. SUPPORT THE TROOPS!

Vomit.

[lpbk2713]

36. Is this the tip of the iceberg?

And I doubt Haditha is alone. The story was revealed at all only because Time magazine confronted the U.S. military with its own atrocity. How many more Hadithas are out there? Five? Ten? One hundred?



We're shooting little girls in their own houses. We're shooting old men in wheelchairs. We're shooting pregnant women. Christ almighty. We have no shame.

[warrens]

37. This war was never winnable

But this will put the final nail in its coffin. If this is true, and it appears to be, these Marines should never see another day of freedom. Ever.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. If they had called in an airstrike, nobody would've cared.

All those stories about "insurgents" being killed by bombing go unnoticed but the results are the same.

I have no sympathy for the murderers in either case.

Just sayin'.

[Bucky]

45. I'd quibble and say there's a difference in cause; the effect's the same

You're right in the sense that the dead are dead regardless of weapon; regardless of criminality. But the difference that matters in politics--the difference between bombing the wrong house and kicking down the right door and shooting up precisely who you're aiming your weapon at, even tho you see you're aiming your weapon at four screaming girls--well, this story will be told in the street.

Murtha was saying last week that 80% of Iraqis want us out of there. This week, as this story spreads, I'm sure it'll go to 90% plus.

Damn, just damn. This is what hell is like.

[Trish1168]

40. We liberated them! They vote! They get ink stained fingers twice per yr!

We are doing them such a favor having saved them from rape rooms and torture chambers.:sarcasm:

This reminds me of a song by the Who... "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

We won't be fooled again.
Lyrics:
We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

[tinfoil tiaras]

41. Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying.

I'm damn proud to be an American right now...

:sarcasm:

[Warren DeMontague]

43. Hey. Where are all the Iraq war apologists?

The folks who like to ridicule the "loony left peaceniks"?

Hmmmm. My guess is, they won't touch this thread with a ten foot neocon pole.

[tinfoil tiaras]

46. or "peace queer"

I love that!!!! I wish someone would call me that just so I can laugh at them!! :rofl:

K&R for the thread!! :kick:

[Bucky]

44. Kicked and Recc'd. Because this story has kicked me and wrecked us all.

This belies the idea that it was a "few guys who lost control." It was a systemic break-down. We will never atone for this.