Simple Math question - how is leaving the dem party going to hurt the gop?

[DanCa]

Okay if you want to leave and not fix things fine thats your buisness. I just have one question though; how is your leaving mathmatically speaking, is it going to help the gop? Look at it this way you remove yourself from the party and the biggest best shot at beatting the repukes is down one member. The republicans retain thier size, the dem party is reduced by one short and a third party still far behind on points gets your vote. So how does your departure hurt the republican's? It'll just increase thier chances of staying in power.
Mathmatically speaking the best thing to do is stay in the office, remove the dino dems that vote for alito and start over. Otherwise you'll be playing into the gop hands And thats how the elephants got to were they are by playing on peoples emotion. Anyhow if you do decide to go I sincerly wish you the best of luck. And hope it works out for you.

[Name removed]

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[napi21]

2. Leaving the Dem party is the same as voting for Nader in 2000!

I don't hate Nader, and he had some good ideas, but if he hadn't been a candidate, Shrub wouldn't be Pres!

[stepnw1f]

3. Great way of Framing the Argument

And I agree.

[Dr Fate]

12. Needing to "frame" that we won't fight Bush strikes me as odd. n/t

n/t

[ClassWarrior]

21. What strikes me as odd is saying we're not going to fight with...

...the sword we've been handed because we're too lazy to figure out how to use it properly, and instead we're going to fight for our values with broken plastic sporks.

:eyes:

NGU.

[Dr Fate]

24. Yeah me too-er- I think.

What are some other comforting ways we can frame not fighting Bush, yet once again?

Let's see- we've already used the "rope-a-dope" and "keep your powder dry for the battles to come" line- perhaps "The Base is Lazy" is the way to go- yeah- that's it- pin it on the base.

[ClassWarrior]

25. Let's see... what are some comforting ways we can frame dividing the base?

This "not fighting Bush" meme is lame and doesn't seem to be working, Doc.

NGU.

[Dr Fate]

26. Suggesting that Democrats fight Bush divides the base?

If you say so.

You are right, CW- I've been putting out the "meme" that Democrats be aggressive and creative in fighting Bush for 6 years and it is indeed not working for the most part.

The real purpose of focusing on a hypothetical "exodus" from the party that we know wont happen is a kind of a pre-emptive rationalization/framing of another big let-down.

We both know they will come back to DU and the DEM lever in the ballot booth- but I understand the cathartic need to make them the focus instead of the real problem.

[ClassWarrior]

27. No, leaving the party divides the base, but once again you're trying to...

...twist it to make it about something else.

NGU.

[Dr Fate]

28. I'm not leaving the party or DU and I doubt anyone else is either....

...anyone who was really an active, voting DEM to begin with, that is. We both know that.

What is the purpose of discussing a hypothetical exodus? My guess is that it is easier to focus on that as opposed to the real problem.

If DEMs would show us they mean business with a filibuster, there would be no need to "frame" a damn thing concerning party unity.

[ClassWarrior]

29. I'm guessing that these accounts of hypothetical exoduses...

...are a form of psychological warfare, intended to damage our morale.

NGU.

[Dr Fate]

30. A mix of real-live frustrated DEMS & trolls fucking with us is my guess.

Either way, there will be no "mass-exodus."

I would imagine the "ABB" attitude will be back in '06 & "08- they will just call it something else.

Probably what DEMS who don't want a filibuster are counting on.

[ClassWarrior]

32. I like to imagine brighter, more hopeful things than that. It's the...

...first step in making them happen.

Never Give Up.

[Dr Fate]

33. I'll leave it at that. n/t

n/t

[Name removed]

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[Gregorian]

5. Sometimes I get frustrated.

And sometimes it takes reminding.
Thank you.
And I apologize for my hasty remarks. I see John Kerry discussing Iran, when he (in my mind) should not even go there. He should be forcing Bush to prove his legitimacy. Or something like that.

I was frustrated when the drug war didn't create a revolt. I was screaming about blood for oil, when Bush's old man invaded Iraq the first time. And now I'm crazy with disblief that we are where we are. It's bound to break soon. I just hope we can all stick it out. Even my diehard parents are turning off. It's that bad. We marched in Vietnam protests, but even they can no longer tolerate it.

I suppose I'll vote for the nominee. The alternative is bleak. I suppose I'll never be able to vote my conscience again, in an attempt to ward off the evil opponent.

[ClassWarrior]

11. Don't we all?

You WILL be able to vote your conscience again. You just need to work at it to make it happen. Be the change you want to see. Trust me, you have LOTS of allies to support you.

Be patient, my Progressive friend. We SHALL overcome some day.

NGU.

[ZombieGak]

16. just how can one vote their conscience.......

Just how can one gladly vote their conscience in a two party system unless one believes in either of the two parties thus getting themselves some representation?

I can vote my conscience till the cows come home and never get any representation for my Progressive beliefs.

[ClassWarrior]

18. Not by just voting and hoping your Reps read your mind, that's for sure.

Read posts #27 and #33.

NGU.

[Pastiche423]

6. Who said they were leaving the dem party to hurt the gop?

After thirty two years of being a registered Dem, the party left me. Now as a registered Independent, (IMHO) I no longer have to support just anyone w/a D in front of their name.

No more DINOs, no more DCLers and never again the lesser of two evils.

[DancingBear]

7. Why is the question always framed as either/or?

I am looking to "leave" the Democratic party as defined by the DLC, yet I am looking forward to helping build a new progressive one from the grassroots up.

The only problem with the grassroots strategy is that while it worked brilliantly for the Repubs after '64, they were not staring fascism in the face, as we are today. Hence, they had the time to build the network. We do not.

This of course does not mean we abandon the strategy, for it is sound. Rather, it means that we MUST NOT look at it as our panacea, for by not taking account what George Bush et al. can do to America today, right now, we sow the seeds of our own destruction, as the Republican Party can handcuff the opposition to a point where it effectively ceases to exist.

This, in my opinion, is why the filibuster is so important. It legitimizes a STRONG (not necessarily successful, due to the current Congressional make-up) opposition, and it puts the populace on notice that somebody somewhere sees something very wrong in America today, and is willing to fight for it.

[BillZBubb]

10. Well said!

We need representatives who will really fight for us. A true opposition party. I, along with many others, don't see that in today's congressional Democrats. We'll win back the middle class if we actually start fighting for something.

[Warpy]

8. How is voting for a Repug with a "D" after

his or her name going to help anybody???

I hate to break it to party conservatives, but you guys are wrong and you've been wrong for enough years that you've lost all 3 branches of government.

Imagine what would happen if just 10% of that alienated 51% of voters got energized with a little hope for a better future. Party conservatives just won't be able to do that for us because the GOP has the conservative vote all sewn up.

Trying a new strategy is WAY WAY overdue, folks.

[DanCa]

22. Thats why you vote the senator out.

I still dont know why Lieberman is a standing senator at this point. Has Leiberman's seat ever been challenged by another Democrat?

[Dr Fate]

9. Or, DEMS could filibuster and unify & energize the base like never before.

And then everyone will stand up and cheer and be proud.

Refusing to fight Bush once again wont make me leave the party, it will just make it that much harder to pick up the pom-poms for next time.

[AZBlue]

13. Well said!

Thank you for your post!!
:applause:

[unkachuck]

14. the DINOS won't go easily....

....or quietly and we could spend 10 years fighting corporate financed games in the process....I think it all hinges on whether or not you believe the Democratic Party can be brought back to it's roots....I'm having my doubts....

....besides, what do we have to lose by starting a new Progressive Democratic Party? The current Party is inept on a national level....when did they last control Congress?....face it, the national Dems can not compete with the modern repug party....

....the Dems now stand for very little and feed at the same corporate trough as the repugs....they rarely fight repug policy and when they do they lose....they are little more than corporate/repug enablers....they can not or will not represent the working people of this country....

....so, what do we have to lose? More years of repug rule? We have that and will continue to have that under the current Democtartic Party....

....with new progressive legislation in Maryland mandating Wal-Mart provide healtcare to it's employees, a well funded Progressive Democratic Party could carry this type of legislation nationwide....

....conditions and benefits once found only under the best Union contracts could be written into law for all....

[ZombieGak]

15. how is supporting a party.......

Show me a Democratic Party that stops supporting our dysfunctional electoral/political systems... and fully supports progressive policies/reforms and they'll get my vote.

But I really tire of this attitude that the Dems can give the finger to Progressives and still demand their vote simply because they are less evil than the Neanderthal Right. The local child molester might be less evil than the nut case Right.

[ClassWarrior]

17. What Dems are going to "give the finger to Progressives" if...

...Progressives infiltrate the party?? I don't mean just vote and hoping your Reps read your mind. I mean get involved. Become the go-to volunteer in your local group. Get appointed to issues and electoral and steering committees. BE the change you want to see.

If you don't, I may just give you the finger myself.

NGU.

[ZombieGak]

19. Dems reek of self importance............

While Dems thwart true progressive reforms.... they pretend they are the only show in town.... all because we're a "two party" system.

In reality, depending on the election, active Dem voters make up about 18-25% of the voting age population. And I wonder how many vote Democratic just because they are the lesser of the evils? Hell... that's the only reason I'd ever vote Democratic.

[ClassWarrior]

20. Ahhh, I'm the one active in my local party, but YOU want to tell ME...

...what Dems "reek of"?

:rofl:

The elected Dems I know are good people who will listen to someone who makes an honest effort. But then, I don't count on the Corporate Media for my impressions of how the Dems "reek." I count on my own experience.

NGU.

[f-bush]

23. Good points

This should be kicked

[Seabiscuit]

31. Sure, the current numbers are obvious. However...

Those here who get so frustrated at the spinelessness of many Dems in Washington over the years understandably feel at times that they don't want to associate with such wimps any more.

So there are really only two choices: form a new party or vote the wimps out of office and replace them with gutsy progressives.

Howard Dean is clearly working on the latter. But not enough time has passed since 2003 to gauge its overall success. Certainly it hasn't had any impact on Congress yet.

Although I don't agree on balance that the only choice left is to quit the party and form a new one, I can certainly understand that sentiment and can respect someone's decision to do so because I've been just as disgusted at times with the Dems as a whole for the past 5 years.

You could also pose the same question and pose the same criticisms about those who have left the country and given up their citizenship after the 2004 election fiasco. I've actually leaned somewhat closer to this option myself. I've been so disgusted at the gradual erosion of our democracy during the past 5 years that IMHO this country no longer resembles the one I grew up in and and grew to love, and there are other countries in the world now which more closely resemble the one I once knew here.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. I'm not leaving. Just voting selectively.

In 2006 I'll be voting for anti-war, anti-occupation, pro-choice, progressives...in whatever party they belong to.

[katinmn]

35. Ditto. Anti-war, health care for all and civil rights

which includes a vote that counts.

It would be good if there were a Dem candidate supporting those key issues but I'll gladly vote for a Green, Independent, or Socialist who will work for citizen interests over corporate.

[ClassWarrior]

36. Heck, if you're not doing that, you're not thinking!

B-):thumbsup:

NGU.

[The Straight Story]

37. I say we all change parties, run as R's, get in, and change their party

just for fun :)
Then maybe the neocon voters will back the things we want because we have an R after our name and we can push through our agendas :)

BWAHAHAHHAHAHA (ps - they are doing it now, they have a few republicans playing dems...)

[ClassWarrior]

38. That's actually not a bad idea. Hell, Lakoff says Progressive values...

...are the BEST of American values. We can just run on truth, justice, and the American way.

NGU.