Why not make gun education a required course beginning in elementary?

[RagingInMiami]

We're never going to get rid of the guns in this country. And as a gun owner, I believe guns are only as dangerous as the people who possess them. But it's no secret that this country is overrun by ignorant idiots, many who own guns and have children.

So why not make it a point to teach gun safety in schools beginning in elementary school? Show kids "scare videos" like they used to do to us back in the day with marijuana, but this would be at least grounded in reality.

For example, never ever point a gun at anybody, whether it is a toy gun, pellet gun, unloaded gun, etc. You just don't do that. And stress the fact that guns do kill. And show actual footage of real gunshot victims. Dead victims and survivors who were left brain-damaged and crippled. And how the families deal with the aftermath.

Show footage of how the shooter ends up in prison where rapes and assaults are an everyday threat.

Children, whose minds are not fully developed, probably have a Hollywood romanticized view of guns and death. Real footage and real stories might scare some sense into them.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. Arrows don't kill people.... Indians do. nt.

[sproutster]

2. I don't own a gun, BUT my son has been through 3 years

of gun safety. He knows how to shoot, and he knows safety. It is my choice not to own a gun with a child in my home.
MY CHOICE.
I am not against gun ownership, and am thinking it might be time to purchase one before it's too late.
I wish I could own a dog instead. :( I hate living in apartments.

[catnhatnh]

3. At 15 I was drinking and running the streets...

...and riding with friends in fast cars...if this kid lives he will be tried as an adult because (unless mentally retarded) a 15 year old has a damn good idea of what a cop will do if you point a gun at him....my real guess is mentally disturbed and heading for suicide by cop.....so in most scenarios-no I don't think "gun education" would do any good and I think imposing that kind of education would cause several riots...

[formernaderite]

9. gun education would do a great deal of good

kids who've gone through firearms education and shooting skills understand that guns kill and can be very dangerous. They don't "play" with guns...most of these street thugs have no clue what happens until they pop someone. Right now all you have is kids with no training acting like idiots.

[leesa]

4. Or nonviolent conflict resolution.

[Coexist]

52. that's a great idea, too

I don't think Gun Safety course would make kids shoot each other any more than Sex Ed makes them have sex earlier. But Conflict Resolution would actually be used by all the kids at one point or another in their lives.

[Gormy Cuss]

5. It's not a bad idea.

Putting aside the issue of who'd pay for it and whether schools would give up time for it, I think it's a good idea to scare kids into an understanding that guns aren't toys and consequences of discharging them in the direction of person are not pretty. It's not that different from other safety day lectures from the fire department or Officer Friendlys. The prison part might be a little over the top.

[MrBenchley]

6. First, because only a handful of people have guns

and are so stupid as to leave them loaded and unlocked where kids can get hold of them.

Second, the NRA's idiotic Eddie Eagle program, whivch is already taught in some elementary schools, makes kids MORE likely to play with guns than not.

[RagingInMiami]

15. If you believe gun education makes kids more likely to "play" with guns

Do you believe sex education makes kids more likely to have sex?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NickB79]

21. Has there been research on the Eddie Eagle program?

"Second, the NRA's idiotic Eddie Eagle program, whivch is already taught in some elementary schools, makes kids MORE likely to play with guns than not."

I would expect that kids who go through the Eddie Eagle program would use guns more, since they more likely to come from families that use firearms. But using a deer rifle when you're 12 is far different that playing Cowboys and Indians with daddy's Glock. Are kids who go through Eddie Eagle more likely to be shot than those that don't?

[MrBenchley]

37. There sure has...why do you suppose Diane Sawyer is on the NRA hate list?

The Eddie Eagle program puts the onus for safety on the kid, instead of on the trigger-happy fuckwit who leavbes a gun out where the kid can get it.

[sierrajim]

42. No, not true at all

MrBenchley is just giving you his one sided VPC talking points that are NOT grounded in reality.

[MrBenchley]

47. Aboslutely true, Jim....

But be sure and trot out some far right wing horseshit to back up the scumbags at the NRA....

[NickB79]

53. See post #51

You claimed the Eddie Eagle program INCREASES children playing with guns. The link you provided says the Eddie Eagle program is ineffective at reducing gun accidents. Your link does not substantiate your claim, so I wouldn't say your position is absolutely true.

[MrBenchley]

56. Why? It's not particularly worthwhile....

[NickB79]

57. OK then

:rofl:

[Solo_in_MD]

76. My experience is via my wife

Who brought some of the material home a a few years ago. From what I read then and recall now, it was pretty innocuous stuff, written at an elementary school level. I was surprised about how well it focused on safety and not on firearms as being good or bad.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[intheflow]

7. This makes far too much sense.

Like you said, it's grounded in reality. It'll never fly in BushWorld©.

[intheflow]

8. Self-delete. Dupe. n/t

[jody]

10. A number of schools already do that but the association that sponsors

those programs is hated by groups and people that advocate banning all handguns or all guns. See "Gun Safety"

[MrBenchley]

11. Hey, the NRA is the scum of the earth, Jody....

And their idiotic fowl is worthless as an educational tool, since he makes children MORE likely to play with guns....

But then you already knew that.

[Paladin]

12. What Mr. Benchley Said

The NRA already has way too much political power in this country. I'll be damned if I want my tax dollars going to some Eddie Eagle NRA recruitment program in my area's schools. I might go for something directed by local law enforcement, but I'd want it very closely monitored.....

[RagingInMiami]

14. Who said anything about having the NRA teach these courses?

[MrBenchley]

40. Jody did...although he tried to be cute and hide the NRA's name....

[Solo_in_MD]

16. Eddie the Eagle is not all that bad.

The program is quite a bit better done than anything a local cop shop could do. While some have visceral hatred of the NRA, they really are not the enemy when it comes to firearms safety.

[jody]

18. "visceral hatred" might make one do stupid things! n/t

[Paladin]

23. See You In The Gun Dungeon

Given your evident admiration of the NRA and your dismissive turn of phrase in referring to law enforcement ("local cop shop"), you ought to fit right in with the other gun-rights "Democrats" down there....

[Solo_in_MD]

31. Appreciate the kind invitation, BTW...

The term "cop shop" is not derisive or dismissive. Its what the LEO's call it.

The facts are that the NRA has more resouces to put into firearms education than local law enforcement. That is not inherently evil.

The NRA has good and bad points. Nothing wrong with using their stuff where it makes sense. The same is true of the Clintons and the DNC. Being an absolutist and purist about people and organizations is dumb.

[sandnsea]

27. They're the reason we even have to talk about this

A very very very small handful of people are against sensible gun regulation and the banning of the worst automatic and semi-autos out there. The ones that gangs and criminals gravitate to, like previous criminals did to Saturday Night Specials, sawed-off shotguns, etc. Even though the vast majority of Americans support various gun regulations, we don't have them. Because of the NRA. They are a gun manufacturers lobby. Much like the Christian Coalition, one of these days we'll run down the NRA's corrupt goings on with Congress too.

[RagingInMiami]

30. Even sensible gun regulation

Is not going to prevent a kid from taking a pellet gun and pointing it at a cop. That is where gun education comes in.

[sandnsea]

36. Not by the NRA

That's all.

[RagingInMiami]

43. I never mentioned the NRA in my OP

Of course, somehow the message got twisted to include the NRA.

[jody]

33. What new laws would you add to current federal laws? See link below.

USC, Title 18, Chapter 44, "FIREARMS" and USC Title 26, Chapter 53, "MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS"

Perhaps the problem is existing laws are not enforced.

[sandnsea]

35. And why would that be???

Gee, cops are afraid of being sued by the NRA. Or pissing off their local gun, uhm, recreationists, and so the DA and/or sheriff doesn't prosecute.

[jody]

45. I don't understand. What groups oppose enforcement of fed laws? n/t

[sandnsea]

63. Cute

Feign innocence. That attitude is why people like me have no use for gun, er, recreationists. Because there isn't a responsible gun owner I know that would pretend that there aren't cops and DA's out there who won't enforce gun laws because of the backlash from the gun recreationists. The gun lobby. The NRA. And I don't care what crap they SAY, I know what they DO, and that's what matters.

[jody]

68. Please provide a source proving the gun lobby and NRA oppose enforcement

of federal laws dealing with crimes involving firearms.

[sandnsea]

70. That's flat denial

You can't find a source that proves this because they're never going to come out and say it. Just like a racist or sexist business isn't going to write in their human resource manual the ways to avoid hiring minorities. But here's a bunch of information on the subject.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=failure+enforce+gun+laws&btnG=Search

[jody]

71. The articles from your search talk about LEO, not the gun lobby or NRA.

I again ask for sources that prove gun lobbies and the NRA oppose enforcing federal laws dealing with crimes involving firearms.

[sandnsea]

72. They deal with lots of things

The only group that could be intimidating local DA's and sheriffs and even the AG is the NRA gun lobby. One entity. There just isn't anything else out there with that kind of power. Pretend if you like, hope it doesn't come back to shoot your kid in the ass.

[jody]

73. I take your reply as "unable to find proof that the gun lobby and NRA

oppose enforcement of federal laws dealing with crimes involving firearms".

Thanks and have a peaceful evening.

Goodnight :hi:

[sandnsea]

74. I take it

you don't really care about enforcing gun laws, just like the posts I gave you said.

[jody]

75. I support enforcing gun laws and maximum sentences for crimes involving

firearms. The executive branch under both Republican and Democratic presidents has been derelict in enforcing such laws.

I'm not aware of a single gun lobby or pro RKBA group that opposes enforcing federal gun laws but I do know that several pro RKBA groups aggressively oppose some federal laws and want to see them repealed.

IMO there is a big difference between opposing enforcement and supporting repeal of gun laws. :shrug:

[sandnsea]

77. You didn't read a thing in that link

There are lots of studies about the lack of enforcement of current gun laws in that google search. Lots of antecdotal stories as to why that is so. Primarily, the fear of backlash from the NRA and/or its members; or the lack of commitment to gun laws by those in positions to enforce them. Because they are NRA members. The NRA is a gun manufacturers lobby. They, and their members, will say anything to discredit anybody except another NRA proponent. I have been down this road so many times in the last few years. NRA members are one of the ONLY groups that you can present statistics to and have them brush them away and pop up an hour later and repeat the SAME SHIT that you just blew out of the water.

[jody]

79. We are recycling our positions. If you have a single source that proves

the NRA opposes enforcing federal gun laws, then please provide it.

You are correct in that I did not read all of about 1,840,000 links from your search but I did browse the first dozen. None of them supported your assertion that the NRA opposes enforcing laws involving firearms.

I don't like the NRA because it supports Republican candidates but I do know it has given some Democratic candidates higher endorsements than their Republican opponents. Such isolated incidents however do not diminish my contempt for NRA leaders.

The issue we were discussing was narrow, does the gun lobby and NRA oppose enforcing federal laws dealing with crimes involving firearms? As regards that issue, I have not seen an article supporting a "Yes" answer. I have read numerous articles by the NRA opposing parts of existing laws and opposing new laws.

[sandnsea]

88. Yes they do

If there's a firearms law on the books, they fight it. Good god, that's what they do. They sue to overturn gun laws. They threaten to sue and drag local agencies through huge court battles. Do you know Alito opposes even machine gun laws? They say they want to enforce gun laws, but have selected a couple of laws that wouldn't begin to make a dent in the problem. A felon can't purchase a gun in a gun store but he can purchase them everywhere else. It's stupid. They will fight any gun law they don't like, that's what they do. And heaven help the agency that truly enforces them because they will feel the wrath of the NRA. Why do you think John Ashcroft changed so many FBI gun regulations. The NRA is a gun manufacturer's lobby. They don't care about the safety or rights of anybody, only clearing the way to sell more guns and stoking public anxiety so they'll buy more guns. It's as big a scam as the Iraq war.

[jody]

89. Which FBI regulation did Ashcroft change? Please provide source

showing Alito opposes TITLE 26, CHAPTER 53—MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS.

[sandnsea]

90. Take lessons from Rove?

See all you guys do is just deny reality and make stuff up out of thin air, anything to support your NRA agenda. You may think you're clever, but you aren't. Your cleverness is responsible for real children dying. Just like Bush's clever Iraq rhetoric is responsible for real children dying. It's the exact same thing. You know full well Ashcroft changed the procedure for retaining background check data. And you know full well what Alito's gun position is, so why be cute about it.

Machine Gun Sammy
http://www.gunguys.com/?p=567

[jody]

91. Your source "gunguys" is a crock. I wouldn't be surprised if you quoted

the Scary Brady bunch. I oppose Alito for SCOTUS but he does raise interesting points in his dissent in Rybar, see US v. Rybar.

Alito wrote "If Lopez does not govern this case, then it may well be a precedent that is strictly limited to its own peculiar circumstances. That may be what the majority here would like, see Maj. Op. at ---- (citation omitted) ("challenges based on Lopez 'lmost invariably' fail"), but our responsibility is to apply Supreme Court precedent. That responsibility, it seems to me, requires us to
invalidate the statutory provision at issue here in its present form."

[sandnsea]

92. See there

All you care about is the rhetoric that supports your NRA bullshit.

Here's another article about how the NRA works against gun laws that would keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2002-11-11-edit_x.htm

[jody]

99. You said the gun lobby and NRA oppose enforcing laws but the article

you gave says they support enforcing laws.

You've had ample time to find a single article supporting your assertion and failed.

Please consider existing federal laws, Title 18, Chapter 44 - "Firearms" and Title 26, Chapter 53 - "Machine Guns, Destructive Devices, and Certain Other Firearms" and tell me what additional laws you would add?

My guess is you have no idea what federal laws already apply to firearms nor do you know how lax the federal government is in enforcing those laws. Of course you can prove me wrong by telling me what new laws you would add and cite statistics showing how many criminals are serving time in federal prisons for crimes involving guns.

You might also browse the Democratic Party's Platform that says, "We will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms, and we will keep guns out of the hands of criminals and terrorists by fighting gun crime, reauthorizing the assault weapons ban, and closing the gun show loophole, as President Bush proposed and failed to do." See http://www.democrats.org/pdfs/2004platform.pdf

The AWB has not had any discernible effect on crime and was not reauthorized. The gun show loophole is a red herring because vendors at gun shows by law must have federal firearms licenses and follow gun laws for each sale.

Do you support my party's position as I stated above on guns? If so, you and I agree except for the AWB and so called gun show loophole which I believe are of questionable value.

[sandnsea]

101. "NRA duplicity on guns"

That's the title of the friggin' article. Just like I said. Typical gun recreationist tactic, just ignore whatever fact that discredits the NRA agenda. When necessary, shift tactics, like you're doing now, by attempting to change the debate.

[MrBenchley]

106. One eventually notes that EVERY

pro-gun argument relies on distortion, dishonesty and denial....

[MrBenchley]

41. It's a piece of crap from the gun lobby.....

"While some have visceral hatred of the NRA"
Geeze, who could hate such a Kuddly Kooky Kollection of right wing shitheads, bigots and criminals?

And they sure as shit are the enemy when it comes to anything political.

[NickB79]

22. What studies show Eddie Eagle makes children play with guns more?

I've spent the past 20 minutes doing Google searches, and can't find anything about a study showing the Eddie Eagle program makes kids play with guns more. Do you have a link I can read?

[jody]

26. Please don't sidetrack the argument by asking for facts.

:hi:

[RagingInMiami]

32. LOL!

[MrBenchley]

46. Geeze, jody, I got facts and you got nothing....

which is why you had to hide th ename of the "association" you were talking about.

[MrBenchley]

44. Jeeze, you must not have looked very hard....

Here's a link that will give you several....including one from the "Journal of Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics" ...

You'll also be able to read how the gun lobby is using the foul fowl to market guns to children (the NRA even publishes a gun magazine for kids) and about the awards and endorsement the liars at the NRA claims to have that they don't actually have.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/eddiecon.htm

[NickB79]

49. Actually I did read that report

The overall conclusion seemed to be that Eddie Eagle Programs were ineffective, not that they INCREASE the rate of children playing with firearms, like you claim. I could not find that particular claim in the link you provided. The Journal of Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics study you mention states: "Results from the study indicated that the intervention was ineffective in modifying the behavior of the children."

The VPC study you linked makes a good point here though:

"And, since gun safety courses like the NRA's Eddie Eagle never address the consequences of mishandling firearms, it is not uncommon for children who have taken such courses to be shocked when faced with the physical trauma of a gunshot wound."

The original poster of this discussion stated:

"And stress the fact that guns do kill. And show actual footage of real gunshot victims. Dead victims and survivors who were left brain-damaged and crippled. And how the families deal with the aftermath.

Show footage of how the shooter ends up in prison where rapes and assaults are an everyday threat."

I agree with you that Eddie Eagle is not the solution to firearms accidents, but your hyperbole goes beyond what the facts support. Eddie Eagle is ineffective, but does not seem to increase the danger of children playing with firearms.

[MrBenchley]

59. So your claim to be unable to find anything was what?

Did you miss the video on that page?

[NickB79]

61. I claimed I could find nothing to substantiate your specific claim

That the Eddie Eagle program INCREASES the chance a child will play with a firearm. Your VPC link did not substantiate that claim, because it simply concludes Eddie Eagle is ineffective at PREVENTING children from playing with firearms. These are two very different things, increase vs. ineffective.

I have now scrolled through every page of the particular Eddie Eagle link you provided twice, and have not found a video link to click on. Is it somewhere else on the VPC site, because all the VPC report "Joe Camel With Feathers" article has is text and data tables.

[MrBenchley]

105. Astonishing you can't find the words

"Follow these links to view clips from ABC News' 20/20, originally aired on May 21, 1999. Follow this link to download a free copy of RealPlayer. " on that page....

http://www.vpc.org/eddie.htm

[NickB79]

114. A TV show tests 40 children with only basic controls

Vs. the "Journal of Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics" study that tested a much larger sample and stated the Eddie Eagle program was ineffective.

[MrBenchley]

115. So that claim you couldn't find the video is also hooey,....

[michreject]

96. VPC citing facts?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MrBenchley]

107. Sure they do...that's why trigger-happy gumps loathe the VPC

Actual facts blow this gun-nut horseshit out of the water.

[enki23]

13. sure. we can use it to fill the empty slots of all the cut music classes

.

[Solo_in_MD]

17. Actually it should be offered like drivers ed

After school and extra cost. The certificate at the end should be sufficient to meet any training requirements needed to buy a rifle/handgun in the local municipality.

[countingbluecars]

19. So who will be to blame

when, despite the gun safety lesson, a kid goes home, picks up a gun, and hurts someone? My guess is the school will be blamed.

[Solo_in_MD]

24. Do we blame the school is a kid steals a car and hurts themself or others?

I am sure in the case of firearms some pol would, but it would be just as bogus.

[juliana24]

85. I agree100%. This is a backdoor way to have guns in more hands.

No way, Jose!

[seabeyond]

20. it isnt the schools place to chose on guns

i dont believe it is the schools place to do sex and drugs either. but they do. that will be the argument for the sex classes along with the gun. we have the sex and drug classes in our school i deal with it. doesnt mean i have to add another waste of time class, taken from academics, being taught to my children with a person that is teaching his/her own perspective of firearm, and not mine

leave my children alone. i dont need society, govt or school to raise my child. i am not willing ot hand over the responsibility. you odnt have to burden yourself with the responsibility. i will do it myself.

(all that was just on your subject line. now reading your words)

you are clearly stating scare children more. we dont scare our children enough. lets scare them into proper behavior, with another issue.

fuck that shit. i am about tired of our society scaring the piss out of our kids so they become hopeless, drgged to make it through this fuckin scary world us adults hae given to our kids. dont even do it in truth or balance. all about scaring the hell out of them.... of course, for their own good

as religion starts chanting we are all sinners, sinners go to hell...... from the time the child is 3

[Solo_in_MD]

25. Which is why I advocate making it like Drivers Ed

[seabeyond]

28. drivers ed is an elective course in high school

outside the school hours.

ok

but then if a child is going to want to use guns, i would hope the parent has started earlier teaching them the responsibility and proper use storage and handling of the gun. if the kid is that old, then fine, he is of the age taking a course. i dont care. parent approval. that is cool

[Solo_in_MD]

34. You are correct, I used that as the paradigm since

some parents do not want their children taught about firearms at all. While I think its a bad decision, especially WRT to safety training for younger children, I believe they should have the right to choose. Thus making it voluntary like drivers ed.

I could be a devils advocate and make a case for mandatory firearms safety training in elementary school for much the same reasons that we teach tolerance in those grades. However, despite the potential entertainment values, I have things i need to get done this weekend so I will refrain.

[seabeyond]

48. i dont now, nor have i ever wanted to have a single thing to do with

guns. are you suggesting you can make an argumet to force me as a child (this has nothing to do with parent, but me, a child, what i want) are you suggesting you can make an argument to force me to learn about a gun. i dont like them now, didnt like them then, yet you could see a reason to force me to learn about guns. i could also see an army state doing the same, doesnt mean i think it is right to create it

no, you dont have the right to decide we all must play with guns. a lot of people dont want to. i want the right respected as much as fighting for your right to have guns in your life

[jody]

51. Can't one use your logic to oppose teaching students to avoid drugs etc.?

Do you oppose K-12 classes teaching students to avoid practices that society believes are dangerous?

[countingbluecars]

58. As an elementary school teacher,

this is the only gun safety lesson I would be willing to teach:

Guns kill.
NEVER pick up or touch a gun.
If you find a gun or see one that is not locked up, tell an adult. Do not touch.

[jody]

60. I agree with that as an absolute minimum.

If you see a gun:
STOP!
Don't Touch.
Leave the Area.
Tell an Adult.

I would rather see students recite that at the start of each school day than prayers or pledges.
:toast:

[seabeyond]

66. bah hahahaha and do you really think that will do it for a child,

a chant. kinda like just say no. false security. just like dont talk to strangers. the way a kids brain works, that is the most absurd thing to teach a child. why i dont believe in school teaching it, i almost think it is more harm than good.

[jody]

67. OK, but what about your children being exposed to other children who have

not been taught to avoid those things that might harm themselves or others?

IMO your position is rock solid libertarian and not consistent with the Democratic Party platform that says:

QUOTE
Teaching good citizenship and good values. We must remain committed to the moral and civic
dimensions of education. Education requires the engagement of the whole community in order to teach
the whole child. Students should learn responsibility in our schools, and students who are
irresponsible—using drugs or bringing violence into schools—must face strict discipline.
UNQUOTE

and Libertarian Party platform that says:

QUOTE
We advocate the complete separation of education and State. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended. We call for the repeal of the guarantees of tax-funded, government-provided education, which are found in most state constitutions. We condemn compulsory education laws…and we call for an immediate repeal of such laws. Until government involvement in education is ended, we support elimination, within the governmental school system, of forced busing and corporal punishment. We further support immediate reduction of tax support for schools, and removal of the burden of school taxes from those not responsible for the education of children.
UNQUOTE

See Dem platform at http://www.democrats.org/pdfs/2004platform.pdf
See Libertarian platform at http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml#educatio

[seabeyond]

80. i am all for disciplining the child that brings drugs to school

or a weapon or has sex in the bathroom. violence, seperate from the other children, discipline, get him counseling, find out why he/she has issue and if there is something we can do as a society to help, i am all for it. i dont know where i signed over my parenting to you, or the dnc, or the school or the govt though. i dont want you to be parent to my child, nor the school. you do not know my children adnd what works best. i do. if kids do something wrong i am all for discipline, but i dont give you my parental right to you nor anyone else. i do a fine job, i dont need you

the school or whoever teaches child dont talk to strangers. i have always thought that was the stupidest of things. firstly my boys and i take great pleasure in talking to strangers everywhere we go. secondly kids really cannot figure out what strangers are. i preferred the method of keeping an eye on my child and protecting them instead of giving them the responsibility of protecting themselves. my job, not theirs. then when they were of the age to better understand i was able to explain the different games adults play to get children. still, i dont trust my child to a manipulative adult. so i keep my eye on them. but dont talk to strangers doesnt work. they look for a boogey man, not a schmo joe.

drugs werent on my kids radar screen. booze was. we have alcoholics in our family. i have talked to them about alcohol, but i dont say NEVER drink alcohol, because that isnt realistic. not going to happen. i would rather teach about alcohol honestly and tell them about the history in my family and teach them to have the wisdom to not abuse.

i dont say to a kid one puff of cig will kill you. or smokers are evil. or or or..... but i give them the reality

i dont like my second grader coming home and talking to me about cocaine. he has no idea, no concept about this world. just fear given to him by the school cause they feel they need to have drug fairs for kindergarteners.

i dont think it is the schools job to be parent.

and it goes the same on the other side. i dont want a teacher teaching my child about their interpretation of god.
nor teaching them about guns

with all that, i know i am not going to get what i want, but.... i do have kids that talk to me a lot and often, so i can use the example of school teaching, how adults use fear to make kids not do things. that is not how i teach my children, through fear..... i teach them thru facts, and give them a strong foundation, and a good example.

my niece came home from her christian school friday...... sub says, boys are no good until 21. (they dont want the girls to be interested in boys until they are way older and are trying to condition them with lie. so i broke it down and went thru it with miece, undoing the damage this silly woman gave to all the 13 yr old girls.

[seabeyond]

81. and i really dont care if i am democratic enough for you

i am not a democrat. i am an independent. i dont like the part of the nanny state democrat. i always fight the nanny, as i fight the other side taking away my right to decide cause they think they can/will make better choices than i. i am confident in my ability. i am not much into group think. i think that is one of our problems today, blindly follow without much thought. i would rather do my own thinking than be dependent on the dem party to do my thinking for me.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

84. many, n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

64. IIRC That is pretty much what the NRA kiddies material does

[michreject]

97. And this from the "Eddie Eagle" program

Created by past NRA President Marion P. Hammer, in consultation with child psychologists, elementary schoolteachers, and law enforcement officers, the program gives children a simple, effective action to take should they encounter a firearm in an unsupervised situation: "If you see a gun, STOP! Don't Touch. Leave the Area. Tell an Adult."

http://www.nra.org/Article.aspx?id=1352

[RagingInMiami]

108. Do you believe that message might come across stronger with videos

I think people on this thread somehow understood that I meant to bring guns into the classroom and have them shoot at targets.

[seabeyond]

111. just asking, you want to bring in videos to my young children of

people being shot with guns. so they can visually see the destruction the pain, the death a gun causes. this is what you want to do with my child. kindergartener thru highschool

are you mad.

you think i am going to set my sensitive child in front of your video to watch people shooting each other.

f****

[RagingInMiami]

117. Yes, I'm totally insane

For even thinking this could possibly reduce the number of senseless gun incidents involving kids.

[seabeyond]

118. you want to put a 7 year old in front of film that show people dying

are you a father? i dont know many parents that would advocate such behavior, even to put the fear of god in them to stay away from guns. i have always chose a different style of parenting beside, such blatant manipulation with fear. one of my main angers to the repug party and the christian rights......

that would be cruel. that .... would devastate my 8 year old. and no school has the right to abuse my child in such an ugly way to fear them to such a point to teach them to stay away from guns

bad parenting, bad.

[seabeyond]

119. btw this is perfect example WHY i dont want school to teach my children

beyond the academic subjects. they fail miserably

[seabeyond]

65. yes i do, but i have lost the fight on that. so when they teach my

children in these things, that arent my way and not how i believe you teach a child to decide for themselves not to do drugs..... then when they come home and we talk about it,.... i approach it different than the school. because i have lost that battle doesnt mean i want to keep throwing things into school to be taught that i dont believe belong, only because, there are already other things in school like sex and drugs.

i understand why society does the sex and drugs, but i dont need school to teach my kids this. they dont know when it is appropriate for my children to be getting this info, i do. they just start at kindergarten, and go from there. i believe it is outrageous to be talking and conditioning kids to the words drug when it isnt even appropriate at kindergarten cause it is not in their world. yet you have the consideration different location adn environment has an earlier age these things come in the childrens life than others. so we just have to treat all children to the very earliest of environment that drugs come into their world regardless if it is appropriate for others.

but i adjust and go along with society, and talk, a lot, with my children

i want school to teach 1, 2, 3 and a, b, c....... and let parent do. unfortunately a lot of parents dont do there job, that is why school and society has adopted my role as parent to do it for me. i dont like it. i am quite capable. still, doesnt mean throw guns in there too.

[upi402]

29. YES, if you bring in dead bodies as part of the gun class

I never understood why we need automatics, semi-automatics, and handguns.
Rifles for hunting I can see.

But tools for killing do not make you safe from a government out of control.
Government has ...well... popguns wont help that situation.

[Greyhound]

38. I went to school in a mostly rural part of the country when I was young

and we had a firearms safety course in the 7th grade, it was part of the standard curriculum. I thought everybody did until I moved to a city.

[sandnsea]

78. My boys went to rural schools

Cripes, I went to a rural school in the 70's. Hunter safety was taught after school and on Saturdays. Never heard of gun safety being taught during school hours. Not in Montana or Oregon anyway.

[Greyhound]

122. AZ

[file83]

50. Considering that Video Games condition children to aim AND shoot guns....

...at people, this may not be such a bad way of trying to counter-act that.

[jody]

54. Should we ban Video Games that involve shooting, cutting, bombing, etc.?

Perhaps we should require a gun-safety course before children are allowed to play Video Games that involve shooting and other dangerous practices.

[Cleita]

55. When we had a draft, most men learned to use guns

properly in the military. Maybe teaching it in school to all kids of both genders wouldn't be such a bad idea. I'll bet if more women knew how to handle a gun, fewer of their menfolk would be keeping guns in drawers and under the bed where their kids can get hold of them.

[immoderate]

62. A child being educated will never disrupt a class.

The human soul thrives on education. I have a fond memory of my father, who was a cop at the time, giving an impromptu lecture on guns to a group of Boy Scouts at camp. We were spellbound. I don't see this as a diversion from education either. All such activities have an accompanying literature, a history, a set of guidelines, standards and methods of measurement, and opportunities for research.

At the very least, children should have guidelines. There is nothing to be gained by the subject being ignored. I might add that some people who debate this subject know little about it and that does not further the debate.

In general, I don't like guns. But I like my gun.

On edit: I bet an ammo loading shop would be a great hit. Condition the brass, set the primer, cast the bullets, measure the powder, load the cartridge. Then, calculate the ballistics, take it to the test range and do the measurements. Summarize with statistics. Tip of the iceberg. I see this as educational. I don't think schools would do it -- politics, insurance, etc. It would lose because of the lead. A word about safety. It's part of every manual arts program and one of the reasons we teach those subjects. Every citizen should benefit from first hand knowledge of what safety in the workplace is, even if they plan to fly a desk. Ammo loading shop is not inherently more dangerous than machine shop or print shop or auto shop.

--IMM

[JerseygirlCT]

69. Not for mine, thanks

They've been taught to stay far away from the things, period.

We don't play with guns, from squirt guns on up.

They're not toys, and they're not needed for our lives.

So, no, I don't want my kids handling the things. Ever.

[Redstone]

82. Oh, sure, let's make fucking guns even more of a fetish

than they are now.

Let's just weave fucking guns into every single second of everyone's lives.

Because they're so essential, after all.

Redstone

[RagingInMiami]

93. Nice of you to hop on the bandwagon

Like you always do. I figured you would come along sooner or later.

[Slowhand16]

86. I wish that would help...

As a youth of today I once watched those 'scare videos'... Many of those same classmates that I watched those films with in elementary school are out there smoking pot, having unprotected sex, drinking, drinking and driving, etc etc, in high school. I find that scare material is just not that effective. The reason these kids act the way they do is because of their lazy parents. Today parents do not want to take responsibility for their children - they are more concerned about 'making them happy' and not dealing with the problem.


Strict parents = smart kids = a moral, thinking individual...

Of course that will not keep your kid from getting shot....






Peace.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. No on many counts

First of all, it is not the school's responsibility. Gun safety should be taught by parents or community groups, like Boy Scouts.

Secondly, we don't have time. Teaching academics is a full time job. PLEASE don't add any more to the overloaded curriculum. Restoring art and music classes is a MUCH higher priority at this time.

Third, as I believe I told you before, it is a violation of federal law to carry weapons on school property. Even police officers are not allowed to carry guns into a school, except in the event of a life threatening emergency. Many of us actually lobbied for this law and will lobby equally hard to keep it from being revoked. Schools are sanctuaries of non violence. NO WEAPONS!!

Finally, I think this is one of the more ridiculous ideas I have heard and I believe most teachers would agree with me. Without the support of the education community, it will never fly. Give it a rest. We have tests to prepare for.

[RagingInMiami]

94. It can be taught without having to bring guns on campus

I'm not talking about a boot camp where we're training kids how to shoot, but videos and education where kids learn that guns are not toys.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. Sorry we don't have enough time to teach Reading and Math

and they take priority.

FYI, such videos do exist. We used to show them to the kids. Then NCLB came along and we don't have time for frills like this anymore.

[michreject]

98. I was taught about gun safety by the Boy Scouts

I was about 6 years old and the course was taught in a school gymnasium. It was a single shot .22 rifle. This was in 1958. I'll remember that until the day I die. I was geeked.

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. I believe the Boy Scouts still do that

[-..__...]

116. There is no federal law prohibiting firearms in schools

There was the "Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990". And guess what? It was revoked (actually though, it was ruled unconstitutional by the SCOTUS, and rightfully so). FWIW, I have to laugh at the logic and stretch of imagination the anti-gun crowd used as their rationale to defend the GFSZA...

"The government argued that possession of a firearm in a school zone can be expected to lead to violent crime, which can be expected to affect economy and traveling in the area, as well as to produce a citizenry with less of an education due to the distraction of the violent crime and in the long-term, a weaker economy. Thus, possession of a firearm at a school falls under jurisdiction of the Commerce Clause."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez

There is the "Gun Free Schools Act" passed in 1994, but it's more like federal blackmail rather than a federal law... it's purpose is to withhold educational funding to states that don't have a law requiring schools to expel students for one year for bringing a firearm to school.

FWIW, I'm of the opinion that any kid that brings a firearm to school needs a serious smack in the head.

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. And how many states don't have such a law?

Bottom line - you can't carry a weapon into any school in this country.

[LisaL]

100. We were actually trained on how to shoot and assemble guns

when I was in school. Those were the days.

[hollowdweller]

102. Sex education, drug and alcohol education, gun education, drivers educatio

They should all be taught. Especially never click a gun even if you know it's empty (this saves lives) Never point a gun at anyone even if you know it's empty, and they should be taught how to check the chamber on various models of firearms. Just these few things would save lives.

[eek MD]

109. Don't we scare kids enough nowadays?

Showing kids "scare" videos will put your cause on par with the anti-abortionists who show gruesome pictures of aborted fetii to sicken people away from getting abortions...

I think all the "scaring" we do to people nowadays is part of the reason our society is so paranoid. Besides, after all the violence they see in movies, some of them may revel in the videos...who knows..*shrug*

[RagingInMiami]

110. I'm talking fear based on reality

As opposed to all the Hollywood movies that show glamorize murder.

[donsu]

112. and teach knife work in Jr. high; shooting missils in High school

black ops in college.

[donco6]

113. BWAA HA HA!

So, in our schools we can't even mention "penis", but we can teach about guns. The sad thing is, I can see it happening.

[SmokingJacket]

120. When I was a kid, my friend's brother died while fooling around with

a gun. Talk about an education!! If more kids heard those stories, maybe they'd stay away from them.

[ragin_acadian]

121. i am all for teaching gun safety, so count me in.

here are some interesting things i found re: Switzerland vs. U.S., gun ownership, etc.
http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/pol-leg/res-eval/publications/reports/1990-95/reports/siter_rpt_e.asp#7.0%20UNITED%20STATES

SWITZERLAND: "The Swiss militia system, developed during the 19th century, has played a significant role in shaping citizens attitudes toward firearms." - SUICIDE: "In 1993 there were 1,416 suicides committed at a rate of 20.4 per 100,000 population (Office fédéral de la statistique). There were 407 suicides involving firearms, a rate of 5.8 (Office fédéral de la statistique)." - HOMICIDE: "Between 1986 and 1989 there were 1.2 homicides committed per 100,000 population, 0.4 per 1000,000 involved a firearm (Killias, M., 1993: 293)." - ACCIDENTS: "In 1993, there were 84 firearms injuries recorded by the police (Bureau central suisse de police, 1993: 2)."

U.S.: SUICIDE: "In 1991 the suicide rates per 100,000 population was 12, the firearm suicide rate was 7.1 (U.S. National Centre for Health Statistics, 1994: 100)." - HOMICIDE: "In 1992 there were 9.3 homicides per 100,000 population, the average recorded between 1987 and 1992 was 9.0. Firearm homicides were committed at a rate of 6.4 per 100,000 population in 1992, which is higher than the average of 5.6 for the years 1987 to 1992 (Hung, Kwing, 1994: table 1)

Homicide rates increased by 13 percent between 1987 and 1992 (i.e., 2.4 percent per year). Firearms homicide rates increased by 30 percent (5.4 percent per year) (Hung, Kwing, 1994)." - ACCIDENTS: "In 1991 there were 1,441 deaths due to firearm accidents at a rate of 0.6 per 100,000 population (U.S. National Centre for Health Statistics, 1994: 100)."

not sure what to make of this data (i have a raging headache, right now) but Switzerland has more suicides per 100,000 people than we do. I doubt it is because of the depressive idea of their government forcibly arming them, :D , but in any event, they don't do it with guns very much, so they must stick their heads in the oven, or whatever. Might be the climate, clocks, chard, cheese, or chocolate: hard to say why they hate life more than we do.

Seems to me, that a state policy on guns (through a citizen militia) is working for Switzerland though.

[benEzra]

124. The Four Rules of gun safety:

1. Always treat any firearm as if it is loaded.
2. Always keep a firearm pointed in a safe direction.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4. Always be sure of your target and know what is behind it.