Attacking the teacher unions

[firefox]

I am prompted to bring up the subject because of John Stossel on 20/20 last night. Here is the relevant webpage with video available for viewing-http://abcnews.go.com/2020/ The picture that is front and center says "Stupid in America- How we cheat our kids". Last nights show was a frontal assault on the teacher unions that centered around the keyword "monopoly".

I did a Google search for monopoly "teacher's unions" to see the language that is going to be used to bust up the "monopoly". This links to those results- http://tinyurl.com/cemv4 What surprised me is that a link to FreeRepublic was second on the results and I will let that drop.

Milton Friedman was on Charlie Rose a couple weeks ago and he had a real dislike for the teacher's unions to say the least. He talked about the need for vouchers and the reasoning behind financing the consumer/student and not the provider. He likened it to food stamps where the money went to the individual and not the store. Then Stossel has a hit piece like the storm is coming.

People here might be pro-union, but these guys have got their strategy mapped out and my opinion is they make a lot of sense. I just wonder when the real marketing offensive will come and I am not so sure it is a bad thing.

I really just wanted to point out the 20/20 website and how direct and one-sided the language is at that front and center picture.

[Warpy]

1. Milton Friedman is a fish faced enemy of the people

and should be paired with Greenspan as the first against the wall come the revolution.

Yeah, they use this hyperbole, improper but loaded language, to sell their idiocy to morons out in TV land. And there isn't a damned thing we can do about it since we're shut out of major media.

Well, except laugh at any fool who dutifully parrots this garbage.

[txindy]

2. Stossel's dad used to toss him ten feet into the air when he was a baby

They only had eight-foot ceilings.

We've all paid for that mistake for years.

[Coexist]

4. I was going to say that Stossel is a dick - but yours is way better

thanks for the laugh.

Remember the "Organic Produce" foolishness of his?! Or his admitting he bought seaside real estate because he knew FEMA would foot the bill if a storm came.

Why does that man still have a job?

[firefox]

7. Last week's show was sickening

He attacked the myths we are told like pollution and chemicals are everywhere like teflon and everything else is not in our bodies and Prozac is not detectible in the rivers and lakes. It was brainwashing at its best.

What is going to make the public education "reform" campaign so sickening is that "the children" will be the pawns in the game. The "reform" campaign is coming though.

[Bill McBlueState]

3. so...

What's the problem with teachers unions? Have people concluded that $30,000 a year is too much money, or what?

[Coexist]

5. I will never get the rationale that teaches, firefighters and

police officers have to fight for pay that makes them barely middle class (and are roundly criticized for holding the system hostage) and CEOs of failing corporations get multi-million dollar bonuses.

[TahitiNut]

6. Labor unions are SPECIFICALLY exempted from all anti-trust action.

Why? Because human labor is NOT a commodity! The "ownership class" continue to regard human labor as something to be bought, sold, and traded - substantively no different than slavery and plantation economics. It's both morally and legally corrupt to treat human labor as a commodity.

[aquart]

9. Thank you.

The problem with buying the crap that a nation can be better run as a corporation is that corporations can fire their people if their productivity diminishes or just for fun.

Nations need to think about why they're different from that. WE need to think why we're different from that.

Is the purpose of a nation merely to facilitate business?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. I have been a member of a teacher's union since 1972

and while they have done many fine things, I have ONE beef about them. They protect some very, very bad teachers and they sometimes appear to celebrate mediocrity in education.

However, lately, they have just been completely inundated with the RW environment nationwide and the testing and no child left behind (referred to in my district at "no school left standing.")

[mediaman007]

11. Beg your pardon, teacher unions protect the process not the

individual. The reason bad teachers are around, is that administration doesn't want to do the work to get them out! Remember, administration hired these people to begin with, not the unions! If administration would develop a case against a teacher and document the case, the teacher could be removed. Teachers' unions make sure that the process is followed, which is only right.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. Yes, the blame

really also has to be shared by timid administrators. However, it is virtually impossible in my district to get rid of a tenured teacher.

Now, have I USED that concept? You better believe it! But I'm a good teacher.

Do you think perhaps the process set up via collective bargaining is too rigorous for the district?

Now, having asked that, I'll also say I am well aware of the need for tenure, given the fact that we evaluate children and it is not unheard of for parents to go after us when we give poor grades. That, and the school board member's wife really likes YOUR job!

As with everything else, balance.

But I pay my dues and guess over the years I've paid about 15 grand.

The unions were much stronger up north, however, than down here.

[mediaman007]

29. In Minnesota the process to "fire" a teacher is defined in state statute.

The statute indicates that there are four grounds for dismissal.
• gross incompetence
• insubordination
• conduct unbecoming a teacher
• signing a second contract, while under contract

The union's job is to ensure that the administration uses factual data and lives up to the statute.

That said, several teachers have been dismissed, when in the union's opinion, the administration had not proved their case. But an independent arbitrator ruled for the school district. The most famous case being in a northern Minnesota city, where a math teacher was removed. The actions for dismissal? The teacher graded his/her high school and middle school students too honestly in math. (Too few A's and B's as I understand it.) The administration backed down to parental pressure and got tired of moving the teacher from building to building and eventually terminated the teacher. The local and state union fought to the bitter end, but the case went to binding arbitration. The decision went to the school district. (Probably because school administration is given too much credit for doing good work, while unions get too much credit for whining.)

[Yupster]

33. In my district bad teachers weren't fired

they were transferred from school to school, subject to subject, and some were driven to quit by giving them six different classrooms, four different preparations, etc.

I always thought if he/she's that bad just fire them, don't torture them, and the kids too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Same practice where I teach

We were saddled with one last year. She has been in the district for 20+ years and she stinks. My principal has spent the last year and a half trying to get rid of her. Now I guess we just have to wait until she retires. It stinks. Sad thing is, she is a nice person. But she cannot teach.

[cmd]

18. You are absolutely right about that

One of my biggest frustrations about serving as an officer in my union was that I sometimes had to defend a less than ideal teacher. However, I had to do it in order to make sure our contract was secure. If the administrators had done their duty, those teachers would never have gained tenure. I offer evidence of that by stating for a fact that I did not have a single evaluation in my last ten years of teaching. My contract stated that I was to be evaluated at least once a year. When administrators do not do their jobs, don't blame the unions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Amen to that

I haven't been formally evaluated in ten years. Contract used to say every other year, now it says every third year. But I am never on the list that administration sends out every fall.

At least I am competent. LOL

[1monster]

10. I was really getting ticked last night listening to super whiner John

Stossel bring on yet another piece about how money doesn't solve school problems and how hard it is to fire an errant or imcompetent teacher.

It is soooo much BULL!

I finally stopped watching it to save my blood pressure, but not before noting that not one word was being said about the intrusiveness of state (and now federal) legislation passed which mandates the content and the method of teaching in today's schools and how detrimental it is.

Two days ago, I was in the lunch room while an intensive reading teacher was telling two other teachers about a seminar she was required to attend regarding teaching level 1 and 2 FCAT (students who score a l or a 2 on the FCAT reading test out of a possible 6).

She stated that not only is the state mandating what the students must be taught, they are mandating how. She said that they were given "minute to minute" teaching methods and plans.

Having just spent a week doing practice FCAT tests with a group of eight graders, I can tell you that, if the actual test is as bad as the practice test, those kids are screwed.

There were questions on the test that asked student to use graphs to determine the unemployment rates in 1932, 1933, and 1934... the graph only went to 1932. Another question asked what was the population growth rate in the colonies up to 1670. The chart stared in the 1700's.

The First Amendment was quoted in another portion of the test, and five or six paragraphs followed describing the whys and wherefores of the Contitutional Convention's decision not to allow Congress to establish any laws regarding religion. The first essay question after that was to ask the students to explain what was meant by the people have the right "to petition the Government for a redress of grievances". The question demanded that the students use passages and points in the article to support their answer. Of course, there was nothing whatsoever in the preceeding five or six paragraphs concerning the right to petition for the redress of grievances.

I pointed these out to another teacher and asked if the actual test contained errors like that. She answered that she certainly hoped not because "we would never know." The teachers ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PERUSE THE FCAT TESTS.

No decent private schools in this area. Home schooling is looking better and better, except that I'm not good enough in math or science to do those jobs...

[mojavegreen]

12. Power of teacher's unions

I think it's fair for citizens to question the power wielded by public employee unions, whether teachers, cops, or firefighters, prison guards etc., and doing so doesn't mean that one is siding with the libertarians or nutcase right. In California the teacher's unions do have tremendous power. And the public schools, especially around LA, are in shambles. Violence is a real problem as is poor student performance. There is a lot of coddling of students, and letting them slide by, or permitting student-athletes to sort of get by without learning any real skills. Some teachers object to the high school party-zone but many don't.

That said,CA teacher's unions can be a positive and progressive force. There is a lot of shallow identity politics going on, but the teacher's unions are taking on the fundamentalist parents and the business boys to some degree, and that is why people like Friedmann and Schwarzenegger fear them. But many of the teacher's unions are unwilling to take on, say, the administrators or school districts and the Trustee system itself.

[MichiganVote]

14. In the US, employees have a right to organize...that includes public

employees. The goal of libertarians is not to question this but to destroy it. John Stossel is a self admitted Libertarian.

"Violence is a real problem as is poor student performance."
School employee unions are not responsible for this

"There is a lot of coddling of students, and letting them slide by, or permitting student-athletes to sort of get by without learning any real skills."
What do school employee unions have to do with this?

"Some teachers object to the high school party-zone but many don't."
How is this in any way related to school employee unions?

..."many of the teacher's unions are unwilling to take on, say, the administrators or school districts and the Trustee system itself."
What exactly are they supposed to take them on about? School employee unions exist for its dues members, not for the general public critics.

There is more than one kind of employee in school systems that have unions. School secretaries do, food service, busing, and even custodians are organized in many locale. Are these unions also responsible for the above mentioned?

School unions serve the purpose of protecting workers from school administration, board and public abuses. They wouldn't exist if one or more of the above hadn't given them reason to. John Stossel is full of it.

[mojavegreen]

15. Tenure

The goal of libertarians is not to question this but to destroy it.

I've never read any libertarians argue this. There may be some around, but I've not encountered them.

As far as teachers not responsible for poor student performance, that may be debatable. There are instances where teachers do a substandard job and the union protects them. Or even when a teacher is charged with a crime of some sort and the union defends them.

Tenure does not imply some right to never being assessed or questioned--that is what some of the people like Stossel are questioning I think. Tenure also may contribute to discrimination against a lot of new teachers, substitutes, adjunct faculty etc. Anyone who has dealt with adjunct faculty issues or substituting sees how the unions often are very protective of the tenured faculty, but do not pay sufficient attention to adjunct and substitute issues, even when the non-tenured people have the same or more education and skills.


Cronyism is not unknown in the education racket. And there are other problems as well which the CTA types of groups don't address, such as discrimination in hiring.

[MichiganVote]

16. Libertarians and education...taken from their platform

Education

The Issue: Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Compulsory education laws… spawn prison-like schools with many of the problems associated with prisons…

We advocate the complete separation of education and State. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended. We call for the repeal of the guarantees of tax-funded, government-provided education, which are found in most state constitutions. We condemn compulsory education laws…and we call for an immediate repeal of such laws. Until government involvement in education is ended, we support elimination, within the governmental school system, of forced busing and corporal punishment. We further support immediate reduction of tax support for schools, and removal of the burden of school taxes from those not responsible for the education of children.

We oppose denial of tax-exempt status to schools because of those schools' private policies on hiring, admissions and student deportment. We support the repeal of all taxes on the income or property of private schools, whether profit or non-profit.
----------------------------------------------
Unions and Collective Bargaining

The Issue: Government interference in the employer/employee relationship has imposed undue burdens on our economy, destroying the rights of both to contract in the free market.

We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or the imposition of an obligation to bargain. Therefore, we urge repeal of the National Labor Relations Act, and all state right-to-work laws which prohibit employers from making voluntary contracts with unions. We oppose all government back-to-work orders as the imposition of a form of forced labor.
----------------------------------------------

School administration has the right and the obligation to initiate termination in the case of poor teachers who are tenured. They don't exercise it. They also have an obligation to the community to assist the teacher to improve. They may not exercise that either. Be aware that although many support staff pay unions dues, many of them are not tenured and they are terminated. The role of the union is to defend its dues paying members. It is not their role to let weak, lazy administrators off the hook and that is what you are asking them to do.

[mojavegreen]

17. Libertarianism (edit)

I am not a libertarian per se and in fact find much of that "platform" objectionable.

Really I don't have much more to say on this issue. Teacher's unions might be good for those who have tenure, and for some teachers they probably do some good. But there are many other issues regarding the teaching business which the unions don't address--such as substitutes, adjuncts, the credentialing bureaucracy.

[MichiganVote]

24. Unions do not regulate sub's, adjuncts, or credentialing

You're making the mistake most of the country makes and that is holding unions accountable for the mistakes of educational boards, administrations and the regulations of policy makers. Unions don't set policy for Districts,Colleges, State or Federal agencies. Unions negotiate contracts.

[mojavegreen]

25. Holding unions accountable

It's not a "mistake" to hold teacher's unions accountable for not addressing hiring issues, substitutes, credentialing, administrative injustices. The union is a group of teachers; the sub./adjunct has the same education as the tenured full-timer; thus it's not unreasonable that he or she have the same right to union representation as tenured teachers. The teachers union members seem to assume that, if someone isn't full-time or tenured, he's not really a teacher, nor allowed the same benefits. Moreover, there is an issue about mandatory dues which even some teachers have voiced concern over. Allowing a sort of check-off list for various causes is not completely improper. If part of my dues go to the Sierra Club, great; if some is going to the fund some marxist-lesbian entitlement program, I'd decline. The present system (in CA at least) doesn't allow that.

If the tenured teachers were concerned about the ethics of education, as well as contracting, they would implement some reforms. They should strike on issues other than contracts, like sub./adjunct rights. And if the districts are corrupt or incompetent they should say so.

[MichiganVote]

26. How about holding taxpayers responsible

You say.

"It's not a "mistake" to hold teacher's unions accountable for not addressing hiring issues, substitutes, credentialing, administrative injustices."

Read my lips-the NEA does not hire teachers, its does not hire subs, and credentialing is set by the US Education Dept. Members in the teaching unions who have a beef with their contract will pursue it through their union. No more, no less.

"The union is a group of teachers; the sub./adjunct has the same education as the tenured full-timer, thus it's not unreasonable that he or she have the same right to union representation as tenured teachers. The teachers union members seem to assume that, if someone isn't full-time or tenured, he's not really a teacher, nor allowed the same benefits. That is wrong................"

Teacher unions are supported by full time and part time permanent employees of a school District / College. Sub's and Adjuncts are not permanent employees anymore than temp workers in a factory are a part of the given union. The practice of not including sub's, temp's or adjuncts in unions contracts is not new and is not restricted to teachers unions. Temp's, sub's and so on are entitled to protection from unfair or illegal activites by labor, criminal or civil laws. Unions do not negotiate for temporary labor in most locale.

"If the teachers were concerned about ethics of education, as well as contracting, they would implement some reforms."

What makes you so sure that teachers are not concerned about the ethics of their profession? Are you forming an opinion without fact? Well let's get you educated instead. Here is NY States Teacher Code of Ethics, http://www.highered.nysed.gov/tcert/resteachers/codeofethics.htm. You'll easily find similar items on other teacher or stated education web sites.

"They should strike on issues other than contracts, like sub./adjunct rights. And if the districts are corrupt or incompetent they should say so."

Yeah, in education we have a saying about the public, "If they aren't bitching about us for one thing, they'll bitch about us for something else. The good thing is that if they hadn't learned anything in school they wouldn't have the ability to bitch at all." Continuing your education, most teachers are unable to strike, its illegal. Others, usually college level do strike and then, predictably, the public does what? They bitch about that. And so it goes. Contract negotiations usually involve many issues, the two most common are the school calendar and health benefits.

If sub's in the workforce want benefits they will have to negotiate with a District. Districts only offer contracts to permanent full time / part time employees. Again--that is not a unions practice.

As to the corruption stuff, you seem to have moved from griping about teacher unions to now griping about the teachers themselves. No matter. Teachers are not responsible for supposed corruption either. But citizens are and school boards are and so are State Boards of Education.

[mojavegreen]

27. Let's put it this way.

That's just it. the tenured teachers want to NIMBY it: "Subs-adjuncts? Hiring-credentialing issues? That's not out baileywick. It's been that way for years." That's the usual neo-liberal line. Then with the power they have, they have the legislature vote in more raises, and pension funds, etc. while the struggling subs/adjuncts are losing money.

Beside, the teacher unions are not like say plumber's unions or electrician's union. PS teachers are already state employees. They have all sorts of rights under the state. They are not like fighting the Boss or company for raises; they are state employees asking the state for more money and perqs. That seems a bit strange. They work for the state and then sort of use their bureaucratic muscle and the union's power to obtain a lot of benefits and a niche that many people just as educated lack.

Teachers enjoy comparing their wages to CEOs, corporate America, etc. and claim they are underpaid, but in most towns away from urban areas teachers are generally the "bourgeois" as they say, along with like lawyers and doctors. They sure ain't the proletariat; tho' they enjoy playing that role. What if all the doctors in town formed a union to campaign for more wages and funds? That would strike many as strange.


Additionally, credentialing is mostly a bad joke, and there are all sorts of PC aspects to it that even some leftists might find offensive. Generally anyone who has completed a real BS or BA realizes that: "Herr Einstein, vee vould like you to teach Physics and Algebra, but you mussen complete Zee Kredential first."

[MichiganVote]

28. mojave--teachers are not state employees, except in state run facilities

such as juvenile detention units and the like.

Whether you like it or not, teachers are hired by local Districts, Colleges, and Universities to teach. That's what they do, they teach. Or they are hired to provide other needed services. They are not hired to advocate for the equivalent of the sub contractors the builder hires nor do they pay their unions dues, usually totaling $500+ per year for the sake of those who pay nothing into the system. You suppose that teachers have more power than they actually have, a RW talking point that is fundamentally flawed. Review information at this site for more detailed information on teachers salaries,
http://www.govspot.com/lists/teachersalaries.htm

Credentialing may be a bad joke to you but its a fact of life. If you were familiear with NCLB you would know that more rigorous standards have been enacted. Teachers must complete a BA/BS in a designated area, take all sorts of education courses and complete a years worth of unpaid internship.
Not cheap but no one cries about that other than the loan holders--teachers. Teachers did not enact the stipulation of NCLB that teachers must be highly proficient or highly qualified, politicians did. Pretty funny given the dismal performance of our great minds during the Alito hearings.

Teachers negotiate with school Districts for cost of living raises and other costs associated with their employment. So what? Is there a law against it? If so, better warn the firefighters, police and state parks workers. Teachers negotiate for a salary, for benefits, and they negotiate a school calendar within Districts, not with the state. They avg. a 1-2% pay raise annually. Their health care costs are rising 15-20% annually. Teachers spend approximately $250-300 of their own money annually on supplies that directly benefit students. Do you? When was the last time you invited a plumber or electrician to your house who then outfitted your home with $500.00 worth of supplies free of charge?

Teachers do not receive stock options, they do not ride around in private planes, have posh parties or drive fab cars. Doctors were beat out of organizing themselves by the HMO's. As a result they enjoy far less for the fruits of their labor than they did in years past. Think HMO CEO's are losing any sleep over it? Hardly. They are a party hardy crew these days.

The plebian/proletariat debate ended with the downfall of the Soviet Union. Class distinctions are meaningless in the US today. It's all about money, all money, all the time.

I think your comments are without factual basis and this has become a tedious conversation. Do some research, you're way off base. And I've got some bad news for you, teacher unions are here to stay. They are not going anywhere. The vast majority of teachers fully support their unions and so long as that is the case, critics will whistle Dixie.

[mojavegreen]

30. "public" schools

It's not that simple. Much as I don't care for the libertarians, they have a point. No parent is obligated to send his/her children to "public" schools. If there were assurances that the schools were safe and that students were learning instead of being exposed to various unsavory influences, then maybe this issue wouldn't be an issue. And really I think you are overlooking what a slushbucket public education is. Anecdotally I know of all sorts of horror stories regarding teachers and public schools. There is a lot of favoritism, bias, profiling. Additionally, it's a feminist stronghold, and there are quite a few reasons--and not necessarily religious ones--for American fathers to be wary of sending their kids into feminist-controlled public schools.


One could argue that citizens are not required to pay taxes for institutions, such as public schools, which they don't support. And some leftists used to argue this as well--they refused to pay that portion of their monies that went to the defense department or something. Maybe that means different types of payments for govt. services--tolls, fees, etc.

I am familiar with the NCLB. It's another edu-crat scam, like credentialing itself. Credentialing is not about education; it's about state control, profiling, "sensitivity training," bogus little standards which have nothing to do with science or quantifiable skills. If you have a degree and pass a CBEST sort of test (as I did) that should be sufficient.

[MichiganVote]

36. Responsing to 'public education'

"No parent is obligated to send his/her children to "public" schools. If there were assurances that the schools were safe and that students were learning instead of being exposed to various unsavory influences, then maybe this issue wouldn't be an issue."

--I invite you to review the following article which states that kids are safer in school than out of it. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindicators/

For questions regarding teacher certification, the make up of the teacher workforce, professional development and other related concerns, review;http://www.questia.com/

"And really I think you are overlooking what a slushbucket public education is."

--Nothing is more of a slush bucket than the Dept. of Defense. The Fed's contribute about 9-10% to states for education. State and local put out the remainder, about 30-40%, depending on local support, which varies. The rest is made up for with grants, donations etc. In my opinion, the day that religious institutions start paying tax on their contributions and property, is the day that I'll happily relinquish parents who school their kids in private or at home from paying toward public education. The fact is, and it is factual, in states that have high drop out rates, there is the liklihood of higher incarceration rates. Drop out of school, drop in to prison. There must be balance in societies between personal self interest and the needs of a community. Education is one area in which community members can and should resolve to seek common ground.

Moreover, research is rapidly showing that even prior to the start of school, at ages 3 and 4, the familiar culture has a dramatic influence on the likely future achievement of students. Public schools can hardly be held responsible for these developmental gaps. Hence, the rise in preschool education and all day Kindergartens.

"There is a lot of favoritism, bias, profiling. Additionally, it's a feminist stronghold, and there are quite a few reasons--and not necessarily religious ones--for American fathers to be wary of sending their kids into feminist-controlled public schools."

--The fact that the classroom is an involuntary educational setting, composed by the school administration; that is, students must be together for set periods of time, accept the teacher, and carry out specific tasks does not entitle one to assume that the teacher alone, male or female, is the sole determinant in learning or interacting. Rather, classrooms, once organized, become a relatively stable micro-community, that develop their own ethos. Classroom character is affected by many factors, among the most important being gender composition of both students and staff. The gender composition of the teacher workforce is largely female b/c of the economic opportunities that women have traditionally found there. This is especially true among private schools. School administration used to be a predominatly female domain until about the 50's. Whereupon, more males were promoted and btw, salaries increased. Male teachers have also traditionally drawn higher salaries or started on a higher STEP b/c 'they are supporting a family'. Today, I believe that more administrative positions are held by men and these positions set policy--not female teaching staff.

[mojavegreen]

42. violent incidents in public schools

From the NCES link you posted:

"Seventy-seven percent of city schools had one or more violent incidents, and 44 percent reported one or more incidents to the police, compared with 67 and 35 percent, respectively, of urban fringe schools. Rural schools were the least likely to experience serious violent incidents (12 percent of rural schools vs. 20-27 percent of schools in other locations) and to report serious violent incidents to the police (9 percent vs. 14-21 percent)."

That is per year. While additional historical or geographical information could be provided with this data, are there any doubts why many parents, especially in urban areas, don't want to send their kids to the public schools?

Those in the teachers unions might claim that violence and crime in schools is not their responsibility, but parents surely think that the teachers have some role in keeping the campuses safe, and in promoting a sort of classroom ethos opposed to violence, crime, and "gangsterism": yet that may not be the case. Many teachers, especially those involved in "social sciences" or humanities, have memorized that sociological "nature-nurture" cliche that the problem kids are victims of their environment and so forth, and there is, I believe, a tendency to coddle the troublemakers and gangsters, and unions again don't address this, though many parents are very concerned about it.

A classroom is a sort of environment which conditions and indoctrinates students to some degree; when that environment is not one that parents--not only biblethumpers either-- approve of, then it's not unreasonable they would object to the public school system, including the curriculum, the teachers, the teachers unions, and the admins.

[MichiganVote]

44. Violence in the homes is a big problem too...and its not going down but up

"Seventy-seven percent of city schools had one or more violent incidents, and 44 percent reported one or more incidents to the police, compared with 67 and 35 percent, respectively, of urban fringe schools. Rural schools were the least likely to experience serious violent incidents (12 percent of rural schools vs. 20-27 percent of schools in other locations) and to report serious violent incidents to the police (9 percent vs. 14-21 percent)."

--Still down overall from where it used to be. Keep in mind, city, community programs to help families with their incorrigible kids are on the wane. Society doesn't stop at the door of the school.

"That is per year. While additional historical or geographical information could be provided with this data, are there any doubts why many parents, especially in urban areas, don't want to send their kids to the public schools?"

--It's certainly understandable why parents of any ilk reject public education for their kids for a myriad of reasons. The word "many" can mean different things to different people. Factually, the majority of students in this country attend public schools. Are Charter and private schools ready for the break up of the public school system inclusive of students with disabilities? I don't see any evidence of that.

"Those in the teachers unions might claim that violence and crime in schools is not their responsibility, but parents surely think that the teachers have some role in keeping the campuses safe, and in promoting a sort of classroom ethos opposed to violence, crime, and "gangsterism": yet that may not be the case."

--Public schools have Crisis Management Committees at the administrative level and at the school level on which both teachers and parents sit. I know, I've done it myself. The process was begun before Columbine but escalated afterward with professional development geared more and more toward topics such as bullying and poverty. Conflict management, anger management and links with area police are routine in both city and rural school districts. Not so in private or charter schools.

"Many teachers, especially those involved in "social sciences" or humanities, have memorized that sociological "nature-nurture" cliche that the problem kids are victims of their environment and so forth, and there is, I believe, a tendency to coddle the troublemakers and gangsters, and unions again don't address this, though many parents are very concerned about it."

--Again, the use of your 'many' is vague and will not define the perameters of problem solving. I'm sure I don't know what philosophical set of criteria teachers have en masse. I do know that Unions contribute to professional development opportunities for teachers, do respond to individual complaints on the part of teachers who have violent kids in classrooms, and do work with administrators to mediate solutions to staff/administrator communication. More than that, they are not mandated to do. Taxpayers, however, can do more than blame teachers. School districts do listen and take the communities concerns seriously. Every month there is an open forum school board meeting at which they can interact with board members. Try doing that with Congress.

"A classroom is a sort of environment which conditions and indoctrinates students to some degree; when that environment is not one that parents--not only biblethumpers either-- approve of, then it's not unreasonable they would object to the public school system, including the curriculum, the teachers, the teachers unions, and the admins."

--Parents can sit in on curriculum committees, I've done it myself. New curriculum is generally set forth the year prior to its use. The publishers are a busy bunch of salespeople and they waste no time selling the 'new and improved' to districts and college prof's. All curriculum must meet criteria set forth by State Education Boards and usually in combination with groups such as the North Central Accreditation Association. Some locale use a different overarching accreditation system. Most curriculum is now aligned with the demands of NCLB.

There's nothing wrong with parents objecting to curriculum and they do it regularly. But remember, public education is a chevy at a time when all kinds of parents want it to be a BMW. It can be a BMW but not by paying teachers the equivalent of Walmart wages and not in buildings that cannot support new technology. Teachers throughout the world have unions or labor associations but nowhere are they maligned more than in the US.

Personally, I think that people who gripe the most about public education have unrealistic expectations and baggage from their own school years. The rest are looking to make a political statement. And some are just plain envious of the fact that teachers in this day and age have managed so far to hang onto the very benefits others in the labor pool are losing. Happens all the time.

edit/spelling

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. You bet it's debatable

Research (and lots of it) indicates that administrators have a far greater impact on student achievement than teachers, who have little or no control over materials, textbooks and curriculum. Teachers also do not hire the incompetent teacher across the hall; administrators do. Teachers get to pick up the slack and clean up the mess left by the less capable in our profession. And you are also allowing them to take the blame. Nice.

Unions also do not jump to defend teachers against criminal charges. I could tell many stories of teachers not only presumed guilty instead of innocent but also fired after little if any help from their union. I ended up hiring my own attorney to get an administrator to cease harassing me. He managed in one phone call to take care of a problem that I had begged my union to solve for five years.

Tenured teachers have one key advantage over new teachers, substitutes, adjunct faculty etc. EXPERIENCE!! (You conveniently forgot that.)

Welcome to DU :hi:

[Fountain79]

19. Question NEA contributions

I am a member of the NEA in Missouri. I am told by my union that only the NEA-PAC gives contributions to political organizations but I am hearing from rw talk radio that it's the uions themselves, anyone know about this?

[dsc]

20. It is only the PAC

It is illegal for the union itself to make donations. On edit I am treasurer of my local NEA affiliate.

[Fountain79]

21. Then what of this?

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007761

[dsc]

23. I don't necessarily consider what you listed to be political organizations

and neither does the IRS to name an example. While, I admit that some of those contributions probably weren't wise they weren't illegal nor were they to political organizations as defined by the IRS. HRC donations are tax deductable for example.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. I used to be president of my NEA chapter in Missouri

and federal law says only COPE funds may be used by NEA for political purposes. So unless you are a COPE contributor, your money to NEA is strictly for membership, not lobbying.

In Missouri, we have the unique situation of a third 'union', MSTA. Their mission is to slam NEA and AFT at every turn. I would imagine they are responsible for any bad news you hear about NEA in Missouri, especially if you can't verify it.

To illustrate how bad MSTA is, I like this little story - Gov. Holden proposed a $3000 anuual bonus for all nationally certified teachers in MO. MSTA opposed it and successfully convinced the legislature to defeat it. Ever wonder why we have so few nationally certified teachers in MO? :)

[Rex]

22. Reagan wanted the teacher unions DOA

he got his wish in the private sector. Today the No Child Left Behind Act destroys poor districts by robbing them of the money needed to pay for stupid tests mandated by the NCLBA. Poor people are kept at a disadvantage by the rich people who make national policy. Same applies to their kids and future generations to come.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. As a former member and leader in two different unions, this saddens me

I belonged to AFT for 15 years. I was a building rep in three different schools and served on the executive board for 5 years. When I left AFT, I joined NEA and became president of my local chapter.

So I know quite a bit about teachers unions.

I now belong to none. I buy liability coverage from an insurance company.

Both unions deserve credit for gains made nationally. They also are largely responsible for the lack of widespread vouchers and charter schools in this country. I commend them for their tireless efforts to improve public education.

But therein lies at least part of the problem in both unions. Their focus is more on politics than on education. AFT is a labor union and trains local leaders to become experts at negotiating contracts with school district employers. NEA is more a political beast and has become a lobbying monster.

I became disillusioned with AFT as it became more involved in political issues. I saw no reason for my union to take a stance on abortion. As a local leader, I saw more than a few of our teachers who were anti choice refuse to join AFT for this reason alone. Every school in my district had a handful of teachers who were not AFT members because it was pro choice. So this was a pretty significant problem while I was involved with my local AFT.

To this day, I do not understand why a teachers union takes any position on abortion. I am pro choice. I donate to Planned Parenthood and expect that organization to defend a woman's right to make a private choice. It just isn't an issue I felt AFT or NEA should go near.

I quit AFT over problems in my local chapter. It became very corrupt, we had a nasty takeover by a group of rebel members and I was on the losing side of a contentious election. I felt like I was a member of the teamsters back in the 50s instead of a teachers union in the 90s.

So I joined NEA and immediately became very involved with my state and local organizations. Initially, I was impressed with NEA's focus on professional issues. But their lobbying was also a concern. I wanted a professional organization that focused more on improving the profession than on lobbying in my state capitol and Wash, D.C.

NEA shot itself in the foot in 1996 when they voted against merging with AFT. The merger would have created the country's largest union, with 3 million members. This strength in numbers was the main reason I (and 98% of my fellow AFT delegates) voted for the merger. NEA delegates cited AFL-CIO affiliation as their primary reason to oppose it.

If they had merged, that strength very well could have defeated NCLB. But ten years later, we are watching this law destroy public education while unions are being attacked by John Stossel.

[Baconfoot]

34. Abortion is a teacher's issue because early pregnancy affects education

If for no other reason, the abortion issue is a teacher's issue because of the effects early pregnancy has on an individual's education even if the resulting child is later put up for adoption. Early pregnancy imposes an enormous, untimely burden on a young woman. It decreases her chances of ever achieving a decent income level by interfering with the quantity of time, quality of time and money she can spend on her education. Surmountable obstacles? Of course. But obstacles, big ones, nonetheless.

Despite what some think, almost all public school teachers do care about the education of children. Caring about that gives one an independent reason to be pro choice.

Some in this thread have complained that teachers unions don't fight for the education of children enough. But in many ways they DO. Fighting for the right of a young woman to choose not to put large obstacles in the way of her education is just one of them, albight perhaps one of the less obvious.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. I understand your point

but I want my union to focus on improving my profession. Period. That is a big enough task. They spend far too much time on issues like abortion, which as I said, cost them members.

[MichiganVote]

39. Abortion is not a teacher's issue unless or until needs arise in the class

I hate to break it to America, but teachers are NOT going to raise your kids. Schools may feed them, cloth them, transport them, and teachers may demonstrate kindness and care BUT---they are still not going to raise your kids.

There are many segments of society that contribute to the needs of young mothers, including alternative schools that often offer child care. Teachers have enough distractions to their profession nowadays. Adding another responsibility will not improve the education of pregnanat teens.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. I think we educators need guilds instead of unions

I would join one in a heartbeat.

A guild focuses on the profession. The AMA is a good example. Look at how successful that organization is. We need an AMA, not a political lobbying firm that repels members over stances it takes.

[MichiganVote]

43. Both would be useful.

[kevinbgoode]

45. Puh-leeze. . .20/20 is nothing but a Right Wing newsmagazine

which has shown itself to be increasingly partisan, thanks to the efforts of Mr. Stossel. Education is not a product like a sack of potatoes - as an educator myself, I resent this increasing attempt to blame the "teachers unions" for the increasingly obvious lack of parental and community assistance in the education of our own children.

If the Right wants to invest in children, they need to start by taking some damned personal responsibility for their own children, who, if you look at the Free Republic web site, have an amazing inability to spell correctly or construct meaningful sentences.

Of course they have a strategy spelled out to market this assault, just as they have one attacking every institution in this country. If I have any frustration, it is how the rest of us play defense all the time, then act surprised when we lose. Instead of everyone working together, every little fringe interest wants complete attention all the time, so nothing gets handled successfully for anyone.