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Remind me - the invasion of Iraq WAS illegal, right?

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:25 PM
Original message
Remind me - the invasion of Iraq WAS illegal, right?
Or am I just imagining that b*s* never complied with the provisions of the (stupid-for-Dems-to-support, but I digress) Iraq War Resolution?

War was never declared, right? Or did I miss where Congress declared war?

And that bit when Kofi Annan, UNSG, said the war was illegal? Was that all in my head, too?

Are aggressive wars against countries that didn't even THREATEN to attack us still illegal under international - and thus our own - laws, or did I just dream that up?

It seems that every six months or so, newly-aware DUers, or longtermers who are less than aware, argue that the invasion and occupation of Iraq wasn't and isn't illegal.

Can you all help refresh my memory on the legality of the war, so that I know I'm not crazy in remembering it to be a blatantly illegal and immoral attack and brutalization of a people whose leader wasn't a threat to us?

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, UN Charter
Article IV of the Constitution states that "all Treaties made...under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land."

The purpose of the UN, as stated in its Charter (1945): "to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war". It is a treaty signed by 7 representatives of the US and requires that "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state."

Article 51 specifies that "Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations."

The key phrase is if an armed attack occurs. Thus the US has no legal right to attack Iraq--unless Iraq attacks it, or an ally, first. This is a fundamental moral precept, the origins of which go back 400 years to the Treaty at Westphalia.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. So I WASN'T crazy in remembering the facts!
To read some comments in the long "turn your back" thread, you'd think I just imagined the whole illegality thing...

I mean, shit, someone on that thread says b*s*as elected in 2000!

:rofl:

(Don't they even READ the About section before registering at a website?)

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thecrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Now, isn't that especially QUAINT ?
:sarcasm:

The neocons don't honor any treaties, dontcha know?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Well, duh. Criminal leaders often don't!
:hi:

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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
2.  the invasion of Iraq WAS illegal. The occupation of Iraq is illegal
The shrub was illegally Selected in 2000 and stole the election in 2004.
There is nothing legal or legitimate about DimSon's entire Administration.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. You dreamed it all up. A Homeland Security Positivity Squad is on its way
to assist you. Be sure to leave your door unlocked.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. LOL!
Yeah, HS raaaaaaaawwwwwwwkkkkkkkssssssss!

Thanks for the smile, Jim. :)

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Good Lord, Gentlemen! Is The Apocalypse Upon Us?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. No, Madge. You're just dreaming about the apocalypse.
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 09:57 PM by Jackpine Radical
It's all a hallucination. You are a butterfly dreaming you are a man. Take your soma allotment. All will be well.

Edit: Speling. Duh.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Nah, we've agreed and gotten along before.
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 10:15 PM by Zhade
Besides, that apocalypse mythology is so middle-school D&D nonsense. :)

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. You mean, Zhade and me on the same side?.
Yeah, that RRRRRRRAWWWWWWKSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!

if w can unite us, he can unite the world. :D
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. ROFL!
Dyin' here, man!

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Indeed, Sir
Having formed my acquaintance of you both down in the "sand trap", you will understand my pleasant surprise....
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. This was an unprovoked, preemptive war. An attack on a sovereign nation.
Like 'em or not.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. Illegal accoring to what?
If you're the biggest dog on the block, you do what you want. I know we like to think we live in a world where that no longer happens, and we've beaten the out of the human condition, but we haven't. How is the UN supposed to enforce anything when the enforcer is the one doing whatever it wants?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I mean "according to international law".
Whether international law still means anything is another debate entirely!

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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
12. That Is Officially TABOO; You Cannot Talk About It.
After all, it would dishearten the TROOPS if they knew it was an illegal war; especially if it was to embarrass our Commander in Chief! (that might be what a republican might say IF they decided to admit part of the truth)

It just a bunch of :puke: .

Worst of all, the above seeming admission that it's wrong, not only implies that even if it is, it is even more wrong to talk about it, then it builds in the assumption that even if it was a crime, such crimes only amount to an "embarrassment" to the Pepetrator in Chief! (no one could ever even think about prosecuting our President and Vice President and key members of their Cabinet for intentionally violating such important, solemn laws--nor for the subsequent death and destruction that occurred as a direct result... and unwillingness to identify/punish criminal offenders is a crime itself!)

Yes. Talk about "the Elephant in the Room"; who cares about WMDs and spreading Democracy doesn't matter when the very act of being there is a Crime. The war was illegal, no ifs, ands or buts--and to continue the invasion is no different than holding people against their will (Kidnapping) following a case of Breaking and Entering & Home Invasion. Piling crime on top of crime.

Alas, there's no power on Earth that can or would consider trying to enforce the breeches of international law and U.S. treaty violations. None save the American people--if they finally come to their senses and take back their government.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. And this is the very reason why...
reading DU and remembering the TRUTH is so very hard sometimes. We feel so frustrated and seemingly helpless to do anything about this. We (most of us) have grown up in a society of laws. When someone does something illegal, most of the time they get punished. Especially when it is especially egregious, like this illegal war. We who have grown up with LAWS want there to be someway to bring this injustice to justice. But it just isn't happening. Its very difficult to keep ones chin up.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. After Iran-Contra, do you believe they will?
I don't.

These guys got away with that, and wound up back in power.

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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Hope Springs Eternal.
Do I believe they will? Alas, not really; I would be surprised... We, the people, have not truly held power in this country in the several decades since I became aware; though the illusion was once stronger. Alas, given the shape we're in, I don't see us taking it back.

Then again, if the dollar does collapse and even if it just continues to weaken, the people's share of the pain will increase proportionally. However, given enough suffering, the motivation to change things will grow. It's just possible, when the time is ripe, that if there are enough people highlighting our collective lack of control/power, the motivation will be directed in a way that actually brings back government of, by and for the people.

Right now, I'm tempted to say that's all we're missing. Alas, there's something else going on as well, some kind of weakening of people's sense of truth/honesty, integrity, justice, fair-play, tolerance, empathy and compassion. A kind of egotistical laziness or corruption. Interestingly, it's most commonly and severly affected victims belong to a (religious) group that claims to prize honesty, compassion and the golden rule--yet they've largely given in/given over to their baser emotional instincts (dishonesty, bigotry and selfishness come to mind--but that's just the tip of the iceberg). It's astonishing really, to see so many Americans behaving so antithetically to what were once considered to be American "Values". Yet these same people are loudly taking pride (another one of their seven deadly sins) in having pure/proper "values"... but what are they? Intolerance of, bigotry and hatred of Liberals, Gays, Muslims/Arabs, Foreigners and Immigrants. They hide behind other "values" such as Patriotism and Personal Responsibility. Yet the mis-define these things and equate them with illegal war/violence and their own ability to obtain money/income or wealth (which is more based on luck of birth or circumstance than only any special personal hard work). The real definitions would involve supporting the Constitution, Freedom and Liberty and being Honest and bearing the consequences of one's actions--all things they eschew (though they might claim otherwise--which would either be a lie or they're simply mistaken).

So, I've managed to all but convince myself that even if our government was working as it should--and our "representatives" actually bothered to honestly "represent" us--we'd only barely do much better. That is, I think the forces of rationality, honesty and goodness, if you will, do hold the majority--but it's not very big (as evidenced by the fact Bush managed to come within striking distance of winning in the last two elections--we all know how he got from there to actually occupying the Presidency). Sadly, I begin to wonder if we, as a people, even deserve better than we have. Yet, somehow, I know that the corruption of the people's minds and values is really mostly a result of some mostly covert effort by the wealthy power base (whoever is really behind the Bush Administration). One related result is the "consumerization" of the lives/lifestyles of Americans by the Corporations (which are just the "fronts" for those unidentified wealth-corrupted power elite (elite has nothing to do with "liberal")). It's insidious. They've mesmerized most people such that everything they think and all that they know comes from Corporate controlled media (be it video/audio/text or TV/movies, radio, newspapers/magazines); we hardly think for ourselves anymore. Many are influenced to think as the rest of the mob by hearing how other's think according to the ubiquitous "polls". Education has been eroded through the poor funding of schools/teachers, but even moreso by the distraction of young people/students through multi-media, cellphones, gameboys, xbox, cable/satellite tv/radio, and even the internet... 25% of the population is 'functionally' illiterate (estimates vary from place to place from 10% to as high as 50%)! A population that can't understand what it reads is in deep trouble, but when they don't even get a basic understanding of our Democratic Constitutional Republic and know what Congressmen do or are supposed to do, or what the "rule of law" is and why it's important, or what's covered in the "Bill of Rights". Say goodbye to our so-called "Democracy" (and few even understand why that is an inadequate way to decribe what's important about our form of government, much less why a "Pure Democracy" is a terrible form of oppression--one we seem to be working towards).

We have to clean up our own house before we can "spread Democracy". That means, somehow reminding people of what made America great--and doing so before it's too late. As soon as the generations of people who experienced even a modest sense of what was great begins to retire, it's either too late or very nearly too late to remind anyone--since the younger generations won't know what you're talking about. They already believe people should subjugate their rights to 'Authority' in exchange for 'security'. (Remember: "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security" --Benjamin Franklin) So, we "might" be able to bring back the power of the people--if we get enough liberals/progressives (disguised as Democrats) elected to have enough power to even participate in Congress. But it's going to be a long road and hard line to tow in order to restore the proper values to our culture. The first step to do that is to disband the Media Oligopoly and apply pressure to create quality programming and demand the "Truth" be provided by the new News and Information companies (ideally, give PBS control over all programming--a sort of Propaganda (joke) of Truth and Education--it can ensure "Free Speech" as well; a "free market" whose final evolution is monopoly is not the only source of free speech in programming, we would just apply quality standards on the free speech provided via 'mass' communications to the entire populace, and it's needed and acceptable because such communications are 'special' in how powerful they are--we currently see it's corrupting power, and that must be avoided in future).

Oh, and lastly, in order to win back that desperately needed power in Congress, we have to ensure that our majority--and we are "the" majority--barely, demands/ensures our votes get counted. To do so is simple and yet complex. Simple in that all we need are paper ballots and supervised hand counts the like of which are used in Germany, Spain and many other "advanced" countries! Complex in that we have to organize to implement this in thousands of precints across the country--against the will of at least that many who would oppose any such change. Will we do this? Alas, no. We're stuck trying to follow the rules which are designed to prevent such outcomes. Thus, the only way to win will be to achieve political wins by such a majority that we exceed the capability of Republicans to fraudulently shift the vote (by everything from dirty tricks to ballot stuffing and electronic fraud). Will we win. I'm not nearly so confident as most others seem to be. I'll believe it when I see it, at which time I will celebrate.

Egad, I wrote an article sized response again... sorry.
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