Is it safe to say we are Highly Disappointed in our Democratic Leaders?

[Philosoraptor]

I won't call them turncoats, or war supporters, or compare them to republicans, or suggest that they are ineffective, or that they have no spines, or that they seem to be alive even after decapitation, or that they don't deserve the high salaries we pay them, or they don't distinguish themselves from the opposition clearly enough, I'm just saying I'm Highly disappointed in them.

Is it o.k. to express this disappointment?

[Vidar]

1. The official leaders, yes. The real ones, no.

[meganmonkey]

2. As long as you don't openly advocate voting them out of office

Anything goes here at DU :P

:popcorn:

[Warpy]

4. Dunno, I've advocated that

and sincerely hoped that people who read these boards would turn out and vote in their primaries to get better Democrats into office.

Most of the current crop just aren't worth it. There are a few wonderful exceptions, but it seems that "well, we're not quite as bad as the neocons" sums it up for most of them.

[meganmonkey]

7. I'll amend...

as long as you don't openly advocate voting them out office in November :)

I was being semi-facetious, btw.

I agree fully with your assessment of the current crop of Dems in DC.

Peace!

[Philosoraptor]

27. Exactly, there are too few wonderful exceptions, & I support them.

But we are capable of feeling disappointed out here in D land.

[Jackpine Radical]

18. Here, in case you missed it, is a widely ignored post from yesterday:

Goddam it, progressives are missing the boat!

We could be in the process of taking over the entire legislative branch--not just Dem control, but Progressive control. We should be finding good, solid, electable ANTIWAR candidates, BRING 'EM HOME candidates, and running them for every House & Senate seat currently held by a weak-sister Dem incumbent, and taking on and every milquetoast DLC primary challenger facing a pro-war Puggie. The public wants an end to the war, with a 57% majority NOW, when there has been hardly any debate of the issue, and certainly no fair debate that accurately portrays the side of peace. With a little exposure on the issue, we could get 65% of the public behind us & walk all over the pro-war crowd, whatever their nominal party membership.

[Warpy]

3. Try disgusted

We know that they spend 90% of their time fundraising. We know that elective office is now purchased via campaign contributions that pay for television air time. We know they have little time to devote to the job they were elected to do.

Still, you'd think they'd put at least minimal effort into figuring out what the issues are, to surfing the net for an hour every night to find out what they're not being told about the country by their canned briefings from the administration. You'd think they'd know what low wages are doing to people in this country because you'd think they'd know what a loaf of bread costs today, opposed to a year ago (clue phone, guys, it's gone UP).

It seems that when they disappear inside the I-495 beltway around DC, they enter an alternate universe. It's not unique to this bunch, it's happened for decades. The problem comes when they're in there long enough that they think the fantasy is real and the folks back home are the dreamers.

That's why it's necessary to rid ourselves of incumbents periodically. It's not just the other guy's son of a bitch. It's YOUR son of a bitch.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. delete

[Yoda Yada]

5. I'm disappointed that I am witnessing a government takeover....

...a silent coup by the Bush regime.

Don't turn on your own. The Democrats are in the minority.....in ALL three branches of government. They can do very little without some Republican coming over to their side. What we have here is three branches of government being run by one person (or regime). I'm disappointed in the apathy from so many Americans, who stand silent and watch this happen.

[Beelzebud]

6. I've had it with Dem leaders.

We're the party of the liberal, and our fucking minority leader is an anti-choice mormon. Of course I'm disgusted with our "leadership".

[Yoda Yada]

8. Karl Rove counts on Democrat's divisiveness...

DON'T turn on your own.

[LynneSin]

11. Oh they won't see it

It's better to be some dramatic 'THEY DON'T LOVE US ANYMORE' type democrat. It gets more posts

[Supersedeas]

25. or on Democratic lethargy from it's leadership

[grytpype]

9. OH NOES!!!! IMPEACH MENT NOWWWW!!!!!

[LynneSin]

10. Speak for you fricking self

:eyes:

[UTUSN]

14. Thank you. It is extremely difficult being a political minority. n/t

[Philosoraptor]

15. I am. So it' s not good to point out my disappointment?

Should I just agree with the so called leaders who voted for continuting Bush's war yesterday? I come from a long line of D's, and I've always voted STRAIGHT D, so I've earned the right to be slightly disappointed with some of them.

[LynneSin]

19. Well how is whining making a difference?

Other than discouraging people or making feel hopeless and giving up. Yeah, this is a constructive thread - about as constructive as a paper cut or ingrown toenail.

I'll speak my mind as much as you can and I say your thread and attitude is BULLSHIT.

"Whine WHine WHIne oh my democratic party is so sucky and I can't believe just how horribly disappointed I am with them Whine Whine Whine"

This is why the people in the Lounge laugh at us posters here in GD/GDP because we're a bunch of fricking whiners and personally what the hell have ANY of us done to make a difference. Oh sure we've written letters to our senators & representatives so fricking what! Only people who I have any respect for in these "Whoa is me democracy sucks" is anyone from the state of Connecticut - because there is a group of people who have actually done something about it. The rest of us will post these crappy-ass threads which serves no purpose but to divide our party even more - which you know is exactly what republicans want.

And I'll tell you something else - yesterday I was 1100% happy with what my 2 democratic senators (Biden & Carper) did because they took the first steps in trying to do something to end this war. Perhaps it would have been nice to see more support for Kerry/Feingold but I knew that Levin was a smart amendment and written in a way that perhaps even republicans could vote for it.

But the other reason why I'm posting about how I support my democratic senators is because for 10 years RICK SANTORUM was one of my senators (with republican Arlen Specter as the other - who still isn't that great but tolerable). Should we help get more people like Santorum elected? Is that what would make you happy? Let's get rid of all the democrats, let's teach them a lesson and not vote for them. Well I don't know about you but I had enough of Rick Santorum and I'm not a dumbass who is going to do anything whatsoever to allow Rick Santorum or anything like him possibly hold an office again. Because I REGRET the fact that in 2000, I used my same pissy mentality and opted to not do anything to help campaign for Ron Klink because I didn't like him as a democrat. Oh, I voted for Ron Klink (pro-life democrat) but I refused to help campaign and hit the foot trails and work to get out the votes. And my pissy mentality of Ron Klink rubbed off on other democrats who I knew who lost any enthusiam towards helping with Klinks campaign. And ultimately Pennsylvania ended up with another 6 years of Rick Santorum.

So you tell me, what the hell are you going to do to make a difference or is posting whiny "DEMOCRATS DON'T LOVE ME ANYMORE" threads your solution to the problem?

Do you have the right to be disappointed - "YES". But this negativity is NOT going to make a difference. Don't just "talk the talk", get out there and "Walk the walk"

[Philosoraptor]

21. I promise to only use happy language for the war supporters.

You have answered my question quite nicely. Blind obedience to party is what THEY are known for. I am on your side o.k.? Jeez.

[LynneSin]

30. Wow, blinders wrapped around your brain tightly

there were two amendments that served a purpose yesterday and we had strong support for one written in hopes of pulling over some republicans which even still wasn't going to pass.

But even moreso is the sense that the WAR ISN'T THE ONLY FRICKING ISSUE OUT THERE. Democrats have done me very proud even when it came to many issues including that fricking gay-marriage amendment and the estate tax. And that's just the past 2 weeks.

Don't blind yourself by focusing on just one thing. We are making a difference in many ways. Was I disappointed in yesterday's vote - a bit, but I knew that Carl Levin has been a strong ally in trying to end this war and his amendment was just as valid because it would have still forced a timeline. But this is the democratic party and this is the DU GD/GDP posters that if we don't get our way we just whine whine whine.

[Philosoraptor]

31. Allow me to whine just a wee bit more please...

So you CAN feel the emotion of disappointment, good. That's all I wanted to know.

The war is my only issue and it is THE most important one, in my whiney opinion.

Fuck trying to bring republicans to our side of the war issue, fuck that, ain't gonna happen.

War is the issue I addressed, and I revealed my disappointment with the dems who voted for it, which is my right.

[LynneSin]

33. Great then answer me this question

If we had every single democrat vote for the Kerry/Feingold ammendment - when would the war end?

[Philosoraptor]

35. Kerry's amendment was a joke.

As was the republican amendment calling us cut and runners. both amendments are non binding anyway, it's all for show.

I want a Democrat with guts to demand an immediate, unconditional pullout.

[LynneSin]

38. Unconditional Pullout will never happen

I want a democrat who is willing to say we need to turn this mess over to the UN and clean it up. Look what happened in Afghanistan when the Soviet pulled out - it turned into a civil rights nightmare.

There is a simple solution to keeping Iraq from imploding like Afghanistan and that's to get the oil fields up and running. That is Iraq's main source of potential income and without it they'll be no better off than Afghanistan right over Soviet pull-out.

But I do not trust any US leader when it comes to the fate of those oil fields because to them it's just profit for US companies. But if we can do the right thing by Iraq and help them get the Oil Fields producting again then they'll have money to take care of their own, educate their own and hopefully prevent a civil war nightmare that could possibly drag the rest of the region into this mess. I want the UN to make these decisions and as I posted in an earlier thread - help get the US out of the war but the US still working with the UN to help with the rebuilding of the country. For us to cut and run will create another Afghanistan and the horrors of what the Taliban was doing to their own people for years.

[Philosoraptor]

40. They did promise originally that Iraq's oil revenues would pay for the war

And it would too, but that promise was instantly shattered by war.

You and I fundamentally disagree on how to end the war, which I believe we agree should never started.

I think actually look at it as a defeat, then cut our losses and run, but I do understand your point, we just disagree on the method.

[LynneSin]

43. My concerns is that the Oil will pay for this guy & others like him

We need to give this back to the UN

[Philosoraptor]

46. I think Iraq oil belongs to Iraq.

And as a so called free nation, they should ultimately decide how to sell it, or not sell it.

I live in a fantasy land sometimes I admit, I'd like to see the U.S. out of there and let that whole nation do whatever it wants to do, civil war or not.

In fact I'm a bit of a new age isolationist.

[LynneSin]

54. I know, but I've read too much about post-Soviet Aghanistan

and the horrors that occured from Taliban rule. You think Iraq is bad now, if civil war explodes (which it is starting to do) then we might see another civil rights nightmare that could rival what happened in Afghanistan. And the thing is - we, just like the Soviets with Afghanistan, were the ones that caused this nightmare.

There has to be a way to end this war and help to rebuild Iraq and their Oil Industry. I'm just as much as a wishful thinker as you are with the immediate pullout. Sad thing is I don't think either one would happen.

I do know that I can't stop fighting for a democratic majority because at least then I think we have a shot at doing something with this war and a host of other very important issues out there.

I was peeved at another poster because he called Bob Casey Jr. a "Conservative Democrat". It bothered me because there are people here at DU who do not think that Casey is good enough of a choice to oppose Rick Santorum because Casey is clearly a pro-life democrat. But after reading about Bob Casey Jr and his stance on the issues, I realized that outside of the choice issue, Bob is pretty progressive. His stance on the issues fall in line with our thinking when it comes to healthcare, taxes, unions, environment, gay rights, civil rights and a host of other issues. And although Casey probably wouldn't have voted for the Kerry amendment from his issues list he probably would have voted for the Levin amendment. So my beef is why are we calling Casey a 'conservative democrat' on basically one issue where he actually is in line with conservatives? It's a MEME that gets started by one person (and in fact he got the term from a local dem party person in his county) and just grows and grows and grows until people start actually buying into the concept as reality. And this reality turns into progressive/liberal democrats copping an attitude about Bob Casey because they 'perceive' him as a conservative to the point that they just won't vote for him. And not voting for Bob Casey can only help Rick Santorum.

It's the same thing about these threads that I 'perceive' as negative towards how the democrats vote on certain issues. Just two weeks ago we were celebrating the fact that democrats (including Joe Lieberman) stopped the Gay marriage Amendment ANd filibustered the estate tax. Fast foward to today and suddenly our democrats are ineffective and need to be voted out because they don't represent us anymore. Our democratic party sucks at times, but overall they are still better than any republican on any given day of the week.

Ok, enough rambling on :pals:

[meganmonkey]

22. Self-delete

..Not fucking worth it.

Peace.

[KoKo]

26. This is why the "people in the lounge"

laugh at us posters here in GD/GDP. :eyes:

You've got to be kidding. Do you know how many people in GD/GDP are active in the Dem Party? Just because they don't rave on about it and attack Progressives working for change...they are "laughed at by those in the Lounge."

:rofl:

[LynneSin]

28. Do you know how many people in the Lounge are active in their party

Don't make assumptions - makes us look even more stupid then whiny posts. Perhaps the reason they gave up on GD/GDP is because they're tired of this whiny-negativity and would rather just skip right to actually DOING SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE instead

[Philosoraptor]

29. I think they'd rather discuss cats and kudzu over there.

How GD looks to the lounge? Have you read the subject lines over there lately?

All I asked was if it was ok to express disappointment with most of our D leaders around here without getting flamed for it. You answered the question. As did others.

[LynneSin]

32. I post at both places very regularly

Don't let the thread titles fool you over what these people do outside of DU. As I've said earlier - making assumptions is pretty damn stupid. I know more about those people in the lounge then you do and I know that many of them are very active not only in the democratic party but also the anti-war movement. Just because they enjoy having fun in the lounge and keeping in lighthearted doesn't mean they don't have a clue with what is happening in the world.

And seriously, don't even think of assuming that the people in the lounge have never posted here or been involved in fighting the battle. Dealing with the negativity and idiot whiner posts have left many people frustrated that if you actually support a democrat and say they do something right or perhaps disagree with the outcome of a vote then you're somehow not a democrat. People in here are too quick to slap incorrect labels on democrats they don't like and toss out democrats simply because of one issue and not the big picture.

The basic picture here is this - it's difficult to debate the issue when the threads have no goals but whining.

[Philosoraptor]

34. So far you've called me a whiner, an idiot & stupid, & "I'm" a labeler

I thought it was against the rules to call people nasty names here.

[LynneSin]

36. Then put me on ignore or hit the alert button

I'm still going to make my say.

Radfridge started a great thread that debates the issue not complain. This is what we need if we're going to end this war.

I started a thread about Bob Casey where a poster mentioned that Casey was a good conservative democrat - at least what his local democratic poll person was saying. I had issues with that because it takes a few people to cultivate into a delugement of "MEMEs" where people will say "Oh Casey is a conservative" and not once actually visit his website and read about his record to find that outside of the abortion issue, Casey is pretty progressive. He's not going to be the next Feingold but if he's leaning that direction it's a much better choice.

But we get the MEMEs screaming the "Casey is a Conservative Democrat" and suddenly people are jumping on board repeating it. Then what started out as a MEME ends up becoming a reality for some. And that reality ultimately will bite us in the ass.

I want this war to end just as much as you do and I really thought that the Levin amendment might actually pull in some republicans who also agree that we need to build an exit strategy. It didn't happen and that's what disappointed me the most.

[Philosoraptor]

37. I wouldn't do that to you Lynne

I respect you, you've been around here a long time, I would never ignore or alert you, and I didn't.

I believe we see each other's points here.

I value your opinions, honestly, we both want the stupid war to end I know.

I just want it to end immediately, because they want it to go on forever.

[LynneSin]

41. Just cause I was here before you doesn't make me any more in the know

I know we see the same ideas, but I will go on paper as to not wanting immediate pullout. That nation is way too volitile and you only need to look at Afghanistan to see what kind of nightmare could be created with "cut & run".

What I do want (and I've posted this a few times) - is all of this turned over to the UN. I want our war mentality troops pulled out and a small contingency of troops/contractors working with the UN to help rebuild Iraq, primarily the oil industry. Because even though I believe in finding alternatives to oil, I also know that Iraq has no other industry to support the country during the rebuilding phase other than those oil fields. I want all non-bid contracts dissolved and I want the UN to handle all contracts on helping to rebuild. Because if the oil fields are producing then Iraq has their own money then to rebuild the rest of the nation. And finally, I never EVER want sanctions like we had on Iraq to the point that we were starving and making matters worse in that country.

But that's just me - being a DU member since May 2001 doesn't mean this is the best solution

[KoKo]

47. Did we leave Vietnam in ruin when we (as you call it)"cut and ran" after

thousands had died and more thousands were injured and broken for the rest of their lives? Why would you use the Repug term "cut and run" anyway. That phrase was used against us protestors against Vietnam. In fact the same arguments for why we went into Vietnam and couldn't get out are being repeated today.

The UN can't step into Bush's mess and they weren't going to take over Vietnam. It's our mess and we were lied to once again to get us to attack another country.

We need to get out and prosecute those who got us in there. Someone needs to be finally held accountable.

[LynneSin]

53. So what about the people in Iraq

http://www.rawa.org

Is this what we want happening to the people who live in Iraq because this is what happened to Afghanistan.

Difference between Iraq and Vietnam (unfortunately) is the massive oil reserves that Iraq has and Vietnam doesn't. If the no-bid contracts (ie - halliburton) were dissolved and the UN was allowed to open up bid to all UN nations, believe me - everyone wants a chance for those contracts including non-US countries.

And I use "Cut & Run" for anyone who wants immediate pull-out from IRaq because that's what it is. And I can't support anything that could feasibly put Iraq in a worst situation than what they have right now. And after all the things I've read about post-soviet Afghanistan - that was a horrible regime that rose to power with the Taliban. What I don't call "Cut & run" is what republicans call anything that remotely seems like an exit strategy. My believe is we need a strategy and I truly think we can get the UN involved if the plan is to end the war and help rebuild the oil fields - turning control and profits back to the Iraqis

[KoKo]

56. Why not allow the Iraq's to run their own country NOW....We were the

one's who went in there and have bombed the hell out of it...not allowing them to rebuild their own infrastructure which we destroyed so the Halliburtons and other Business interests could take the profits.

We need to get out of there. It's their country not ours. And Afghanistan was very backward compared to Iraq having been under seige for longer. Saddam did have a "coalition." Now a new coalition needs to emerge without our interference.

Afganistan has been a pawn with the Soviets and us working to undermine it.
Our very invasion just prolonged what was going on there. Now the drug traffic is back and who know who is profiting from that business. (I have my views which I wont express here...but think of the "usual suspects.")

[LynneSin]

57. Yeah, that's what I'm sure they thought would happen witih Afghanistan

You're foolish to believe that if we just leave that all will be sunshine and roses in Iraq.

I'm not talking about continuing this war either - but we do hold some responsibilies for the mess we created there.

If I came to your home, destroyed it's contents and ruined you & your family's ability to make any sort of income then just left - don't you think I should be somehow held accountable for my actions. And sure, trying me for my crimes is all nice & dandy but, um - how are you going to rebuild your home & make an income?

We need to end this war, but we need to be responsible for the mess we created. Helping to rebuild Iraq and get their profitable industry running again without the aid of war-profitteers is not only the best course of action but the most responsible of ones. By working with the UN we can hope this happens.

[KoKo]

58. I never said in my post things would be "sushine and roses" in Iraq...

but frankly I don't think they were worse under Saddam that they are now with the carnage to our Troops and the Innocent Iraqi's who are trying to live their lives. At least Saddam was one of their "OWN" flawed as he was and he wasn't a WASP "Emperor" Wannabee who is oppressing folks in his own Fake Democracy (since he came on board) and claiming he's bringing "Freedom and Democracy" to the great unwashed Islamists.. that the Bush Empire with helpers had spent so much money promoting the REGIMES of AMERICAN FRIENDLY HALLIBURTONS!

[Philosoraptor]

48. All of these are good sound ideas.

And I wish we could see this actually happen. If it was implemented just like you layed it out, it WOULD work.

[KoKo]

59. I'm about ready to do that to you LynneSin...I find your posts

very ARROGANT about WHAT YOU DO for Dems...and you assume that the rest of us who don't "blow their horn" are slacker, keyboard whiners...and when you site the DU "LOUNGE" as a place that Laughs at the rest of us...your credibility goes thin with the more "serious of us" who don't find the "DU LOUNGE" a particularly "welcoming place when WE want to unwind."

I think there's a smack of hypocracy about what you say.

:shrug: I think you attack people you don't even pretend to try to know.

[KoKo]

42. Your post speaks for itself in it's superiority.

Calling GD/GDP posters....whiners and saying that folks in the Lounge laugh at those posters sounds kind of superior...doesn't it? :shrug:

[Greeby]

12. Here's a way to get your own back in a month or two

http://www.votemark.org/
http://www.nedlamont.com/
http://www.tasinifornewyork.org/
http://www.carlsheeler.com/

Get yourself some Democrats who WILL end the war :patriot:

[treestar]

13. It may be a hard line to walk because they need the money and

that means corporate sponsors.

It is probably very tricky.

And not supporting the stupid war when it was so popular exposed them to all kinds of name calling that they must have believed would hurt their chances.

It is difficult to find a good way to react to the RW's mudslinging. Trying to be mature and stay above it doesn't seem to work on the sheeple we have now.

Sometimes I think that for every time they call someone a "traitor" someone ought to call one of them a "fascist" and keep it up like they do. It's hard because it's boring. If your intellect works, their level of debate is just tedious.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. *Shrug* Nothing new. Politics as usual.

Expecting things like ethics, principals, honesty, in politicians is an exercise in futility.

[BonnieJW]

20. It all boils down to getting rid of the lobbyists

They have to spend so much time fundraising because of huge donations to the other party by lobbyists. Then everyone is beholden to the big donors and they have to vote on legislation to please the donors, without regard to the wishes of their constituents. If the government funded elections and put a limit on spending and prohibited ANY donations of any kind from lobbyists, you would have the pure legislative body that could concentrate on upholding the Constitution and passing laws that benefit their states and country. And if a toad had wings....

[leftofthedial]

23. leaders?

we have leaders?

all I ever seem to encounter are fundraisers.

[mmonk]

24. The truth doesn't have to be that hard.

Yes, safe to say.

[bridgit]

39. it is no less than daunting watching dems fiddle for answers in rumbled...

clothing while republicans dress like pressed poker cards & cut diamonds lie through their teeth without so much as an intelligent quip yes...it's long, far, and well past time to put this thing in gear or the rest of the world will be lost foe generations to come.

what can they be thinking, are they simply hoping they will stop and be kind to them, let them win an election for old time sake...what folly that dem leaders!

[Philosoraptor]

44. The repubs have a totally unified front for the war. all in agreement

While we appease them, beg them, ask them to consider, break into factions, and walk into walls. We should be just as totally unified as they are AGAINST the war.

[bridgit]

49. they are a culture of death & cronyism but they are united yes...

and america just seems to love someone with a prejudiced, pre-congealed point of view and republicans offer that en masse.

progressives need to be less flighty, airy & effete imo (and no, having a du mod come in here and lambast me for just what my definition of "airy" might be for the moment is little-less than what i am referring to, and don't snigger...it's been done), more focused...fight the battles we know we can win, tackle the big stuff later

[Philosoraptor]

50. I'd like to see leaders who are polar opposites of the repubicans

In every way, on every subject, but especially the subject of war and torture.

[Norquist Nemesis]

45. We don't have any Democratic "Leaders" in D.C.

You have to have followers in order to lead, and all they have is a handful of staffers these days. Frankly, I have a tough time getting behind them when they can't even get together in a room and come out as a group that agrees on a message on something as important as Iraq. :banghead:

[Terran1212]

51. At the politicians: yes ; at the grasroots level: no

The liberal/progressive/Democrat/Green/socialist base has been very vocal and brave against a media/politician blitz that is so far-right at the moment. VERY brave.

The politicians, eh can't speak much good for most of them. Kucinich, Conyers, McKinney, Boxer -- a few have done good.

If only the goodness of the base could enter the Politicians.

[Philosoraptor]

52. If they had true honor, they'd stop taking money & fight the power

If they had true honor, they'd be SCREAMING for the war to end and SCREAMING for the minimum wage to be raised to 15 an hour.

Where's the passion? I wish they'd put their people out here ahead of their bank accounts and chances of re election.

[nolabels]

55. The term "LEADER" is greatly over emphasized

Are the Humans now a broken trained heard?

I only look for great ideas, idol worship is unwarranted

[Cleita]

60. I don't know how safe it is but it's certainly true of some of them.

I think the corruption has leaked to some on our side of the aisle as well. Somewhere we have to figure out a way to take the profit out of serving one's country while in office. There is the problem. Our pols can be bought by special interests and this shouldn't be so.