PHOTO: Winning hearts and minds.

[Bluebear]

Protesters hold their party flags as they take part in an anti-U.S. rally in Karachi, Pakistan on Sunday, Jan. 15, 2006. Islamic groups staged nationwide protests Sunday against a purported CIA airstrike that Pakistan says killed innocent civilians instead of the apparent target, top al-Qaida lieutenant Ayman al-Zawahri.

[wtmusic]

1. But...but...there was a 50% chance

this is what happens when you take chances instead of putting boots on the ground.

I am ashamed of our military.

[chefgirl]

5. Don't be ashamed of the military

Most of them are just ordinary guys, sent into an untenable situation and are doing the best they can to follow orders, keep their heads down and get home alive.

Personally, Im completely ashamed of their Commander in Chief. What a fuckstick THAT guy is!!

-chef-

[Journeyman]

6. The only concept of value to emerge from World War 2. . .

is that it is the moral responsibility of all people -- civilian and military personnel alike -- to decide when to say No. "Following orders" hasn't been a valid excuse for reprehensible behavior for over 60 years.

[chefgirl]

7. You might be right

...but following orders IS exactly valid in this case.

The ONLY reason any military personnel has the right to refuse to follow an order, is if it is an inherently illegal order. Considering that its the military's entire function to wage war, they cannot legally refuse to follow an order to drop a bomb/attack a city, etc. You've got to remember that the average pilot who drops a bomb isnt given a full complement of facts. Our military does not work that way. They are given orders, they follow them.

If every soldier was held to the standard of making 'value' judgements every time they are given a 'lawful' order, our military wouldnt be able to function very well when we really do need them to protect us.

Additionally, how willing would YOU be to spend 'X' amount of time in jail for refusing to do what you agreed to do, even considering that when you agreed, you had NO idea your COC was going to embroil you in the midst of an illegitimate war??

Its very easy to throw around the argument that a military member can just refuse to follow an order they are given, because they are politically opposed to the reason for that order, but not such an easy proposition in reality.

As I originally said, its not the men and women of the military at large who are to blame for this. Most of them are just trying to stay alive, and I suspect a whole lot of them ARE politically opposed to this bullshit in the Middle East, but honoring the committment they made is an essential element in the life of the average soldier.

-chef-

[wtmusic]

11. Take your entire post,

apply to the infantry who shoved Jews into the "shower" at Auschwitz, and it becomes clear that there is a point where the lowliest GI is not only able to, but has an unambiguous moral obligation to refuse orders.

[chefgirl]

15. So, blame the troops??

I get REAL uncomfortable with anyone who is so willing to blame the troops, yet not once in either of your posts do you hold the Idiot in the White House responsible. Wasn't that the same mistake people made during the Vietnam War?

Oh and, you didnt answer my question, which truly is the crux of this dilemna for the troops:
How willing would YOU be to go to jail for refusing to follow a lawful order??

I would agree with you that there is a point where the lowliest GI is not only able to, but has an unambiguous moral obligation to refuse orders.. That time is when they are given an UNLAWFUL order. (Abu Ghraib {sp?} ring a bell?)

These men and women made a committment,when they joined the military, to follow orders, not to make value judgements about those orders.
I'm sorry, but the ability to refuse to follow orders is NOT as black and white as you're idealistically trying to make it out to be, nor should it be.
Most of them would go to jail for doing so, and I don't know too many of them who would be willing to make that leap for being given an order to carry out a normal, military operation.

-chef-

[wtmusic]

16. The myth of the "normal military operation"

I would go to jail in a heartbeat before I'd open fire on civilians who weren't attacking me first. That kind of thing is happening in Iraq ALL THE TIME. It's against international law and anyone asked to do it should refuse.

The ability to not follow orders is extremely black and white. It's very simple. You put your gun down and say, "I refuse". They yell at you, call you a fucking pussy, a communist, a terrorist, then court martial you and throw you in jail.

And just because it's simple does not mean it's easy. Here is one of the courageous individuals who took the difficult step:

http://freecamilo.org/

This letter from Camilo's website:
"I am a distinguished graduate of the United States Naval Academy (Class of 1984) who served honorably in the US Navy until 1990. As part of my leadership training at the Naval Academy, I was introduced to the concept of lawful vs. unlawful orders, a subject that I feel belongs at the forefront of the debate regarding the curent war with Iraq. It seems obvious to me, based on my extensive research, that the very top of the US chain of command, from the Commander in Chief and uniformed military leaders on down, have either forgotten about or, even worse, willfully chosen to disregard the importance of adhering to a binding legal framework for waging war against another country in the case of Iraq..." (more at link)

I never would have been there in the first place. The war itself is unlawful. And that is the untold casualty of this war--our own military. We're taking brave young men and women and asking them to do illegal things. How can the military recover? It will be a long, long time.

[chefgirl]

17. Wow

I never would have been there in the first place. The war itself is unlawful.

Well, arent YOU just morally superior to all those poor kids over there who enlisted to protect this country, yet who were unlawfully, immorally used to propogate Bush's war??? Would you tell Cindy Sheehan that her son was immoral for not refusing to follow orders??

I've said it twice, and still it bears repeating. These men and women MADE A COMMITTMENT. They are doing their level best, to honor that committment, do their job, follow orders and come home in one piece. Its following orders that, most often, enables them to stay alive, or hadnt you considered that?

Save your prostelytizing for the REAL criminal element here, the civilian leadership who caused all this in the first place. Or do you prefer spitting on the troops? Its not their fault. They were every bit as duped as the American people.

And, if you're so willing to go to jail for what you believe in, why are you on a message board talking about your idealistic, naive belief in moral absolutes instead of enlisting in the military for the sole purpose of making the political statement of refusing to follow a lawful order so you can sit in jail for however long they decide to keep you?? See how asinine that sounds??

You seriously need a big fat dose of reality.

I'm out.

-chef-

[wtmusic]

20. Thank you for providing "reality"

It's always amusing when a DUer considers their opinion "reality", but whatever. I'm sure it's very real to you.

I don't give a damn about your commitment. Say it as many times as you like. I'm sure many of the troops were duped, as you apparently were. If they were duped, which was highly possible in a military environment (and which is what probably happened with Casey--read some of his later emails) they at least thought they were fighting for a worthwhile cause. Unfortunately there are lots of "poor kids" over there blowing civvies away who know better. I have no sympathy for those people. If you honestly can't see where moral responsibility takes precedence over "doing your job", "honoring a commitment" (blah blah blah) then you need a big fat dose of something (humanity? humility?)--or would you murder someone to avoid jail time? Where do you draw the line?

[chefgirl]

21. You've just made my point, thank you

there are lots of "poor kids" over there blowing civvies away who know better. I have no sympathy for those people.

That's a whole lot different than blaming the entire military, is it not??

As to the rest of your post, do a little research, and you wont sound so ridiculous.

-chef-

[wtmusic]

22. Misunderstanding?

You read my comment as "blaming the entire military"-- and apparently thought I meant they were worthy of the *only* blame.

Of course GWB bears ultimate responsibility not only for deaths in Iraq but of American servicepeople. With any kind of justice he will be prosecuted before a war crimes tribunal. But when I hear stories like this, I am ashamed of our military as an institution--that they can't come up with rules of engagement more specific than firing missiles at civilian houses, on the friggin' CHANCE that an al Qaeda member is inside. That is truly pathetic.

Let's put it this way: you're in the Army. A superior gives you an order to fire on two civilian houses, and there is a 50% chance that there is an al Qaeda member in one. You can assume that two families live there (10 people minimum). Do you push the button?

[Stockholm]

9. True!

The troops have no say in where to go, that privilege belongs to Commander Cuckobananas and his friends.

[neweurope]

10. "Doing the best they can to follow orders" was NO excuse

for German soldiers in WW II, if I may remind you. The Americans said so. Ever since the Nuremberg trials there is no excuse anymore for soldiers who "just follow orders".

-------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[wtmusic]

13. Somewhere someone made a decision to bomb two homes

when there was only a "50% chance" (their estimate) that a criminal was inside. Is that a standard we would apply in the US? Of course not. That's why our military policy is racist (brown people don't count), immoral, disgusting, and reprehensible.

I am ashamed of our military.

[babylonsister]

2. This is still, again, making me ill, in our name. nt

[Straight Shooter]

3. What will the Iran protests look like when we begin air strikes there?

And what are the chances that Iranians who currently make their home in America will seek revenge in this country?

[BattyDem]

4. What right do we have to bomb a country to get ONE man?!?!?

:grr:

[Wilms]

8. No worries.

We'll send Karen Huge!11! back over there to smooth things over.

[Chimichurri]

12. hmmm I wonder if this latest travesty helped our image in the ME?

I'm guessing no, not at all.

Can someone give the Occupier and Theif a blowjob already? Where's Jeff Gannon - I think he's unemployed at the moment...

[IChing]

14. "Hearts and minds? We don't need no stinking hearts and minds".

We got the money, power and are trying to own your souls
Finding"the treasure of Sierra Madra"

[butterfly77]

18. Keep on making friends and allies Georgie boy!

[Bozita]

19. Wow! Bush said he was a uniter, not a divider. He told the truth.

The Pakis in the photos are proof.