My cousin laid waste to an obnoxious fundamentalist yesterday.

[Skidmore]

And it was awesome! She waited till the accusatory rant the woman was caught up in was over. Then she focused on her face with eyes like laserbeams and quietly responded, "It's not Jesus I have a problem with, but the organized church." Woman shut up and looked puzzled and walked away. It was like someone pulled a plug. In retrospect, I think it had a lot to do with her inability to separate Christ and the church, for in her mind they are one and the same.

[fudge stripe cookays]

1. What started her on the rant?

Something your cousin did or said?

I love seeing these people knocked down ap eg. Kudos to your cousin.

[ScreamingWhisper]

2. Interesting. What was the obnoxious behavior?

What was the accusatory rant? What preceeded the rant?
As a Christian, I've always believed, been taught, that Christ WAS the Church,Church WAS Christ. Why would she seperate, when they should be one?

[JuniperLea]

5. My guess is that the OP is talking about "organized" churchs

You know, those that bastardize that what Christ taught.

[ScreamingWhisper]

11. What I find very interesting, further....

... is how many people do (in some cases, rightly so....) criticize the Church and the teaching from The Bible.
I've even heard many say "I can read it for myself, and decide." (which is a good thing) but there is also the nuance of language and customs that the average lay-person will not recognize, that in many instances underlie the Message in the parable / scripture. Only someone with some teaching would have that knowledge.
As an institution, the Church is what stabilized Europe during the Dark Ages, when energy for most intellectual study, was replaced with energy to just survive. Without the Church's efforts and forthought, thousand of tomes dating back hundreds of years would have been lost to the ages, not to mention the art, and music(sheet form) that survived. Pottery, paintings, poetry, literature including the Word of God were preserved. Not meaning to go too off-topic....just interesting.

[JuniperLea]

14. And that is the main problem in giving MY faith to a book

I don't believe that God mad the Bible so difficult to read, follow, etc. The Bible has been bastardized by man from the beginning and has been used in horrific ways to hold people down... and to attempt to take away the free will that God gave us... the reason we are here. Nuance of language and customs... jeez... I'm sorry, but I've had my fill of preachers and churches trying to sway thinking based on this. "Interpretation" can really go overboard.

I have a cousin who is a Missionary in Israel. She and her family had to learn Hebrew, the culture and the language, in order to do this. We were raised in the same church all of our lives, taught the same things and questioned many of the same. She said that reading the ancient, pre-European tampered Hebrew text is an eye-opener. She is currently doing some research into getting an English translation that she is comfortable with. There are apparently, from what she tells me, many versions and there isn't a lot of proof that we have everything.

[ScreamingWhisper]

17. And in that well-stated opinion, is my point.

Not everyone in today's culture has the 1)opportunity 2)aptitude 3)resources to learn an ancient language. Much less decipher the meaning(s) that still baffle learned scholars to this day. It will still fall to "individual interpretation" in your cousin's case, if I may be so bold. Thus, if carried thru to the next sequence, she would become the next "teacher" to the student (listeners) if she directed them on what she has learned. It's a cycle...and in the end, there is only Faith. Either you do believe, or you don't.

[Bill McBlueState]

19. interesting

It's a common belief that the Christian churches' opposition to rational inquiry was a direct cause of the so-called Dark Ages. But you seem to be saying that the "Dark Ages" had a different cause, and that the Christian churches were a stablizing influence against that other cause.

What do you think caused the "Dark Ages"?

[ScreamingWhisper]

22. Climatic changes (shortened crop cycles) coupled with

the Plague. Combined they forced a shortage of food and crops that escalated starvation and disease....to state a few items

[niyad]

24. you are joking, right? the same church that gave us the inquisition,

the crusades, the burning times, that stifled thought, that banned books, that criticized galileo? THAT church you portray as the protector of culture and learning?


what ARE you smoking?

[fudge stripe cookays]

25. Stabilized Europe?

Perhaps for a few years. But look what it what accomplishing in Palestine during the same time. Mindless slaughter of "the infidel."

And then you have the nightmare of the Inquisition, and the back and forth in England between the Catholics and Protestants during the Renaissance. the art and music that went along with it sure were nice, but the the religion itself and the mindless bots promoting it caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

[BrotherBuzz]

3. Context?

[Skidmore]

9. There was a family issue that precipitated the escalated

diatribe the woman engaged in and she was lashing out sideways. She basically started trashing everything external to her belief system as "not of God" and then proceeded on to the "thank God he's sent us George Bush, a true man of God--he's saving this nation" and that "when Jesus comes, ya'll be left behind" It seemed like it went on forever, but her main point was that anyone who didn't hold her world view was unchristian and unpatriotic. A bad combination of Limbaugh/Falwell crap.

You can only take so much of that.

[ScreamingWhisper]

13. Then I'm confused by the post...

What was the issue (without specifics, or names...)?
She just spontaneously started "...trashing everything external to her belief system..."
I can't make the leap for this discussion as BUSH + CHURCH = GOOD compared to what your cousin said: CHURCH = BAD , JESUS = Good?

[JuniperLea]

16. Many will come in His name...

and will deceive even God's chosen...

Boy. That lady should really read more about Jesus. He was basically a gentle person and he fully supported God's gift of free will to his children. However you treat the least of his brethren, that's how you treat Jesus.

IMHO, and professed Christian who does not show compassion is a blasphemous aberration.

True man of God... riiiiiiight. I'm surprised he hasn't had an encounter with God-sent lightening yet.

[gratuitous]

18. There is only so much of that a person can take

Strangely enough, this dovetails quite nicely with a current right-wing talking point, the one espoused by Little Arfin’ Annie and brought up again last week by Rash Lardbutt: You can’t criticize or refute some people. Now, of course, Ann and Rush are usually in mid-criticism and mid-refutation of folks like the 9/11 widows or John Murtha when they say it, but they whine about how you’re not supposed to talk back to widows or veterans, and you can’t trash talk them, as they proceed to do so.

This is similar to the repressive right argument that “God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.” It’s not the beginning of a very profitable conversation when one side claims divine authority for their position, such as claiming that God has installed George W. Bush for just such a time as this. It sort of ends all further conversation (or at least they hope it ends all further conversation). If you say that Bush isn’t the exact man God wants in the White House, you’re either blaspheming God, or you’re just not as in tune to God as the person making the claim. There’s no room for the conversation to progress unless the other person will come off of that unprovable claim. And regardless of what you point out that makes Bush look ungodly, they will say that old George is merely smiting the sinners God wants smited – or are you saying the Bible is wrong, and not everyone is a sinner?

So you’re at a total stalemate, unless you can dislodge the person from their rock-solid belief that God wants you to be his best friend or he’ll kill you and then torture you for eternity, which seems like a very odd sort of belief when applied to an allegedly all-loving God. And sometimes the only way to do that is to take their stated belief to a ridiculous extreme like the prior sentence.

[bobbieinok]

26. these 2 phrases are extremely popular with pentecostals/charismatics

----“God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.”

----such a time as this.

And add 'I know that I know that I know'.

I can't count how many times I heard these phrases over 15 years.

[deaniac21]

4. Arguing with people you disagree with in a public forum is

very rewarding.

[TheDebbieDee]

6. Your cousin is a smart lady........

I myself reasoned this out last fall. I feel that church organizations insinuate (or try to) themselves between you and God in an effort to control you and separate you from your money.

I have since had a lot of success nurturing my personal relationship directly with God. I figure that church is a place that you when you want to praise God while in the company of those who are doing the same thing.

But you can always praise God by your lonesome!

[JuniperLea]

7. What was the deal?

I can't say that I can enjoy your post without knowing what the situation was or what the rant was about. I can't get into Christian bashing for the sake of bashing... there are some Christians who actually walk the talk and bashing for bashing's sake isn't fair to them.

[ScreamingWhisper]

12. Well said. n/t

[xchrom]

8. neither the bible nor the church = jesus.

and jesus would be the first to say so.

[Skidmore]

10. Amen!

[lpbk2713]

15. They just don't get it ..... K&R

She (the fundie lady) might have thought she had special permission to be a PIA cause it was Sunday.




:shrug:

[ScreamingWhisper]

20. Off-topic: Your avatar makes me hungry for "Hot Fries"

....Do they still make those?

[lpbk2713]

21. I've had em before but not lately.

I was wondering the same thing. They were good weren't they?

[ScreamingWhisper]

23. Used to spend 1st period with my tongue and lips burning, trying not

make too loud a "sucking sound" to cool them off. ROFL

[earth mom]

27. All those fundie churches are cults.

The followers have been brainwashed and that's why you see the "lights are on but no one's home" response. They just can't think for themselves. :scared: