DETAILS OF FINDING MUTILATED SOLDIERS-WILL MAKE YOU SICK

[leftyladyfrommo]

http://www.kristv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5082777

This is so awful - but people need to know this. This is the kind of enemy that we are fighting.

This is what we have set loose on the world. And now we can't get the genii back in the bottle.

[acmavm]

1. Here's what you get at that site.

Our Apologies

The page you requested is currently unavailable. Pages on this site are constantly being revised, updated, and occasionally removed. You may have followed an outdated link or have outdated pages in your browser cache.

Please use your browser's BACK button to return to the previous page.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

[meegbear]

3. Works for me

[leftyladyfrommo]

4. Fixed it - was an S not a 5

When you get old you have trouble seeing small stuff.

[norml]

74. You need to Copy and Paste.

Highlight something, then click on Edit.

[leftyladyfrommo]

76. I don't know how.

[norml]

83. Left click on the mouse, then holding the button down, drag it over some

text. It should then be highlighted in blue.

Lift your finger from the left button.

Then right click on the mouse.

Move the curser to Copy.

Left click on Copy.

Go to where you want to place what you've copied.

Left click on that spot.

Then right click on the mouse.

Move curser to Paste.

Left click on Paste.

That's all.

Next we'll have to work on how to copy and paste photos and graphics.

:)

[leftyladyfrommo]

98. Thankyou. I'll try that tomorrow. It should be easier than

what I'm trying to do now.

[Warpy]

2. Yeah, too bad we abandoned the Geneva Conventions

In the beginning, they were treating our captives one hell of a lot better than we were treating theirs. Then the word about a place called Abu Ghraib got out.

I'm not surprised by this, not at all. I'm only slightly surprised it took so long to happen.

There is a reason this country carefully built a reputation for strict adherence to the Geneva Conventisons in time of war over the last century--IT SAVED LIVES. WWII was full of stories of Germans looking for Americans to surrender to because they knew their treatment would be humane. Without the GC, they'd likely have fought to the death, causing many more Allied casualties than there were.

One of the greatest evils of this bunch is the abandonment of the Geneva Conventions. A reputation it took a century to build has been destroyed in six short years.

I will never forgive any of these men for this. We need to hold them to account. If we don't, this country is lost.

[cali]

5. I have two words for you

Danny Pearl.

Of course, it's shameful that we've abandoned core values, but the people who have been captured by Al-Qaeda in Iraq or Al-Qaeda affilliated groups anywhere would have met the same fates no matter what we did or didn't do.

[rodeodance]

7. gawd, I imagine the fear that is in our troops hearts--if they are capture

d.

[lynne]

12. The lesson here is to NEVER be captured -

- as capture will lead only to torture and death. Fight to the death or take yourself and them out with a grenade if you must but NEVER allow yourself to be captured. That was the advice of a Gulf War vet and career military friend who was discussing this incident the other day.

[leftyladyfrommo]

16. These guys need cianide pills.

Really!

[lebkuchen]

37. or an implant to help us find them more expeditiously

[NNN0LHI]

19. Daniel Pearl was killed in Pakistan not Iraq

Are you getting your evil doers mixed up?

Don

[dogday]

20. You are right

He was kidnapped and killed in Pakistan.....

[cali]

26. No, Don, I'm not even a little confused.

Yes, Danny was killed in Pakistan. He was killed by people who were either Al-Qaeda members or linked to Al-Qaeda. Many of those doing the torturing and beheading of both Iraqis and foreigners in Iraq also claim to be Al-Qaeda members.. Those who think that it's as simplistic as "if bushco hadn't violated Geneva Convention norms, these atrocities would never have happened", are either engaging in wishful thinking or ttheir fury at bushco is clouding their ability to look at the situation rationally. The plain, blunt truth is even had America behaved impeccably, they would still have engaged in these atrocities. Such is the nature of assymetrical war.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Junkdrawer]

22. You mean the reporter killed investigating Al Qaeda-ISI links...

Oh yeah, that's a cut-and-dry example... :eyes:

[Warpy]

30. Pearl was captured in Pakistan

not Iraq. That's apples vs. oranges.

Pearl was beaten and executed. He was not waterboarded, shocked, burned, or raped with light bulbs.

Yes, the Al Qaeda groups have always executed captives, often gruesomely. They don't have the facilities for tidy executions like lethal injection.

Now that we have abandoned the Geneva Conventions they have carte blanche to do whatever they want without world condemnation. Everything goes and both sides are guilty. Two wrongs are finally making a right and isn't the world a much better place for it!

[cali]

57. LOL!!!

How twisted can you get???

"Pearl was beaten and executed. He was not waterboarded, shocked, burned, or raped with light bulbs."

Are you honestly suggesting that beaten, tortured, and brutally beheaded, which is ALL that virtually anyone captured by Al-Qaeda and affiliated groups can expect, is preferable to being captured by American forces? I full throatedly condemn use of torture and murder by Americans. I condemn without equivocation, abandoning the Geneva conventions. There is NO excuse for what we've done, but the vast majority of those captured by Americans are not murdered. In addition, it may take prodding and vigilance, but US military personnel are being charged with murder in several cases. In other words, it is not SOP to murder those we capture. If you believe it is, you certainly have nothing but contempt for ALL of the troops.

Insane. Literally, insane.

Even funnier: "They don't have the facilities for tidy executions like lethal injection." Yep. Poor wittle Al-Qaeda. If only they had the proper means they'd dispose of their captives more humanely.

Danny Pearl's death is NOT apples and oranges, as you so brilliantly put it. I've already explained, in a prior post, in simple language, why there is a direct connection.

"Now that we have abandoned the Geneva Conventions they have carte blanche to do whatever they want....."

They already did what ever they wanted. Our atrocious behavior make it near impossible for us to take the high ground, but it doesn't change the facts of asymmetrical warfare. Might I suggest that you familiarize yourself with this concept?

[davekriss]

111. The French Resistance engaged...

...in "asymmetrical warfare" during WWII. Do you condemn the French too? No objection to bringing attention to the criminal behavior of some towards our own, but I don't agree with your implied blanket condemnation of "asymmetrical warfare".

Just because an oppressed people (I mean the French in WWII) cannot marshall together a traditional military and face their enemy in open battle does not mean they cannot engage in warfare by other means. The French instead rightly sought freedom from their fascist oppressors by every means available.

The Treaty of Westphalia notwithstanding, it can be very convenient to the oppressor state to label their war terror "legal" and label everything else criminal. I'm sure that's what a Nazi would say when pushing the chair out from under another patriot maquis.

This does not justify in any way the purported actions of Al Qaeda (from 9-11 to beheadings in Iraq) -- those are criminal actions and the perpetrators should be brought to justice -- but I do quibble with your broad brush. And I'd like to point out that the U.S., for no imminent cause, has killed at least 50,000 Iraqi citizens, innocent and insurgent, compared to our 2,500. Being ripped to partial shreds by US bombs then left to die a slow death vs. losing your head to the knife of a criminal thug -- to the victim, there's little difference.

[deaniac21]

130. If they really wanted to be more humane all they'd have to

do is shoot in the head.

[Bake]

94. A quick, simple shot in the head would do it. And be tidy.

No need to HACK A LIVING HUMAN BEING'S FUCKING HEAD OFF WITH A MACHETE IN FRONT OF A FUCKING VIDEO CAMERA.

"Tidy lethal injection"???? Get real!

Frankly, I think the world condemns wrong on both sides. I do not in any way condone US torture of prisoners. And we have lost the moral high ground by abandoning the Geneva Convention. But I don't think al-Qaeda EVER followed Geneva in the first place.

We don't HACK PEOPLE'S FUCKING HEADS OFF WITH MACHETES AND BROADCAST IT. Thanks for giving even moderates (you know, the ones whose votes Dems NEED to win elections?) a reason to think we're all fucking crazy.

Bake

[HamdenRice]

36. Been drinking coolaid lately?

Daniel Pearl was killed by Saeed Sheikh, an operative of Pakistan's Inter Service Intelligence agency. He has been convicted and is awaiting his death sentence.

Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan, was headed by a Saudi, Osama bin Laden, and was composed mainly of middle eastern fighters.

Neither Pakistan's ISI, nor al Qaeda, have had much impact in Iraq. The people who killed those soldiers are neither Pakistani ISI, nor al Qaeda.

To conflate them and suggest, this is what "our enemy" is like is to buy into Don Rumsfeld's never ending war against "Islamic civilization"

[Junkdrawer]

41. Thank you.

:thumbsup:

[peacebaby3]

45. The people who killed the soldiers called themselves Al-Qaeda and said

their new leader who took over for Zarqawi did it himself. They bragged about it, but I guess you know who they are better than they know themselves.

I think it is shameful to lump the Iraqi people in with Al-Qaeda who are now operating in Iraq thanks to the * administration.

[NNN0LHI]

50. That is not correct

Our government says they called themselves Al-Qaeda. All we have is our governments word on anything that happens in Iraq. Our government hasn't been very truthful lately in case you haven't noticed?

Don

[leftchick]

53. exactly Don

and I can not remember our government being truthful regarding anything Iraq related.

[peacebaby3]

56. Ah, yes. What was I thinking? Everything is a conspiracy. Explain to me

why when * and his minions were having a couple of good weeks because they could tout killing Zarqawi and supposedly crippling Al-Qaeda in Iraq would the government then lie and say that the new leader had captured, tortured, and murdered two American soldiers? Gee, that would be exactly the opposite effect of what the government was claiming about what was going on with Al-Qaeda and it supposedly falling apart with no Zarqawi.

That would have to be one of the most stupid propaganda campaigns ever!

And we should certainly never think it was Al-Qaeda since they have never done anything like this before? :sarcasm: And they have certainly never videotaped their murders! :sarcasm:

Again, I ask, why is it not acceptable to hate both the * administration and Al-Qaeda? They are both horrible. If it were not for the * administration invading Iraq, Al-Qaeda would not be operating there, but it doesn't mean that we excuse their evil behavior either. It is also horrible to blame these grotesque, brutal murders on the Iraqi people. They had nothing to do with it! The Iraqis are killed by Al-Qaeda as well.

[NNN0LHI]

59. Did you believe the "Winnebagos Of Death" story too? n/t

[HamdenRice]

64. Horrible murder in Somalia! Shows how bad those Colombians are

Your post and the OP are just plain illogical. You are both lumping together unrelated movements as the al Qaeda enemy, which is simply unfounded Bush neo con propoganda. It's like saying that there was a horrible murder in Somalia, and that shows how brutal the Colombians are.

The people who killed those soldiers are Iraqis. Iraqis are fighting for a wide variety of reasons -- because they want to bring back the power of the Baath party, because they resent the diminution of Sunni authority and wealth, because they are disgruntled soldiers, because family members were killed by occupation forces, because they are Islamicists, and most likely because they are Iraqi nationalists who want to drive out an occupying army.

They are organized in a variety of militias, irregular forces and even criminal gangs. A very few of them identify with al Qaeda. But that is like a fringe Black Panther group in Los Angeles in 1969 saying it is "Maoist." It doesn't mean that Mao Tse Tung or the Communist Party of China organized or leads them. It's a statement about who inspires them ideologically.

You and the OP are making a ludicrous claim, which is right in line with the administration's propoganda -- that there is a link between the nationalist insurgency in Iraq and al Qaeda. You might as well be saying that Sadam pulled off 9/11 -- that Iraq, Iraqis or the Iraq insurgency has something to do with the alleged attackers of 9/11.

They don't have anything to do with each other. If there had been no invasion of Iraq, there would be no militias in Iraq beheading American soldiers.

If you believe that al Qaeda or its forces are in Iraq directing the insurgency, you might as well come out and say you believe Sadam did 9/11 and was hoarding (non-existent) weapons of mass destruction so he could turn them over to (his arch enemy) Osama bin Laden.

[peacebaby3]

73. I have actually said the exact same thing in several of my other posts

about the fact that Al-Qaeda didn't exist in Iraq before the invasion, but they do now. Maybe you should read them. I do believe that Al-Qaeda in Iraq killed these soldiers.

You say they were Iraqis that killed the soldiers, true? What is your source?

I don't for one minute believe they were Iraqis. I guess you think all Middle Easterners support torture and murder.

I'm sure there are some Iraqis that have now joined Al-Qaeda, but most of the factions/groups that have formed of Iraqis aren't tied to Al-Qaeda and Al-Qaeda has shown they will kill Iraqis just as quickly as they will anyone else.

It's actually you that are lumping everyone together by stating that Iraqis murdered these soldiers. Why would you associate Iraqis with Al-Qaeda? Al-Qaeda is in Iraq now, but that doesn't mean the Iraqi people support them being there. You are actually helping to support the Neocon propaganda by asserting that Iraqis are the ones who did this. I'm sure the administration thanks you for helping them paint the Iraqis as terrorists.

[HamdenRice]

85. Thanks so much!

You post had me literally laughing out loud with its illogic! Funniest non-joke post ever!

[peacebaby3]

86. Pathetic and typical. n/t

[beachmom]

104. Actually, the virus of al Qaeda has unfortunately spread to the

Iraqi people. The terrorists in al Qaeda are more and more commonly homegrown Iraqis, who have become radicalized. Another sad fact from this awful war.

[peacebaby3]

110. I agree with you beachmom and it wouldn't have had a chance had we not

invaded and turned the country into complete chaos, but the new leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq has claimed these killings and he and many of the leaders of Al-Qaeda are not Iraqis so I don't believe it is fair at all to blame Iraqis for the torture and murder of these soldiers. I also believe just as I would condemn any Americans for torture and murder so will I condemn torture and murder by Al-Qaeda.

[beachmom]

114. I researched it a little, and here from the Council of Foreign Relations

is this about Zarqawi and his death:

http://www.cfr.org/publication/10880/

What does Zarqawi’s death mean for the insurgency?
Experts say his death is important, given Zarqawi's charisma and mythic status among Muslim extremists, not to mention his alleged ties to terrorist cells in Europe and ability to spur jihadi recruitment there. "He breathed life into global jihad by launching the Iraq operation," says Nibras Kazimi, an Iraqi expert at the Hudson Institute. U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad called Zarqawi the "godfather of sectarian killing."

However, military intelligence reports from earlier this year suggest his influence was on the wane and was being overstated by the White House to provide a link between Osama bin Laden and terrorism networks in Iraq. Earlier this year he folded his operations into the Mujahadeen Shura Council, a collection of mostly Iraqi insurgent groups. Further, experts say he lacked support from the bulk of the Iraqi-born insurgents. Of the estimated 20,000 insurgents in Iraq, roughly 18,000 are native Iraqis , according to the Brookings Institution's Iraq Index.

Hence, Zarqawi's death, in terms of squelching the insurgency, will only be "helpful on the margin," says CFR Defense Senior Fellow Stephen Biddle. "At the end of the day, this war is not primarily the activities of al-Qaeda but is an internal conflict between Iraqis, not foreigners," he says. "You could kill every last al-Qaeda-in-Iraq member and still have a war." Kenneth Katzman of the Congressional Research Service says getting rid of Zarqawi does not address the root causes of the Sunni-led insurgency. "It doesn't affect the social base of the insurgency, which is that Sunnis feel humiliated," Katzman says.

I have to concur with this article. I'm not blaming the "Iraqi people". Most of them just want to have a job and live a normal life. However, I think that there is a possibility that some of these Iraqi insurgent groups are doing horrid things and then pawning them onto al Qaeda. It sounds like with the case of these soldiers, it was indeed al Qaeda, but I do wonder if a lot of these atrocities are being committed by Iraqi insurgents. This war has many mysteries to it, and we haven't even talked about Iran . . .

[peacebaby3]

117. I have actually read that same article or one quite similar.

I agree with it as well.

I actually think that Al-Qaeda thought they needed some fresh leadership in Iraq because Zarqawi had become to big of a target and wasn't as effective as he had been in the past so they had someone feed info about him to the right people and end of problem.

I would agree that many Iraqis are becoming more violent and starting to join the "insurgency" and commit horrible crimes, but I think that most all of their acts are against other factions of Iraqis...hence the civil war that is taking place. When you hear many of these stories of finding bunch of decapitated bodies around Iraq that were either Sunni or Shia, you know it was probably a sectarian murder. Do they also hate and come try to kill American soldiers? Sure, I'm sure they do, but this killing has Al-Qaeda all over it and they also took credit for it and stated emphatically that it was in retaliation for the killing of Zarqawi and carried out by their new leader.

I think we basically agree on the issue. Don't you?

Thanks for the research. That was a good article.

[beachmom]

119. No problem, peacebaby3. I remember reading about Vietnam

and it said that if you think you understood the complexities of that war, then you hadn't studied it enough. I think that's the case with Iraq, too. There are SO MANY splinter groups, and leftovers from the Saddam regime, al Qaeda, Iranian agents, and so on, it really is hard to know what the truth is. However, in this case I'll concur with you that al Qaeda did this awful crime against our soldiers. I tell you, I heard more of the details of this on Sunday, and I had a LOT of trouble falling asleep. Those fanatics really do scare the s*** out of me. And they don't give a damn who you voted for -- you're the infidel and must be eliminated . . .

[davekriss]

113. HamdenRice

You are one of the dozen or so consistently lucid truthtellers here at DU. I tip my hat to ya, brotha!! :toast:

[HamdenRice]

127. Thanks!

It's nice to get encouragement to keep posting.

[kiki]

69. Actually, it makes perfect sense...

...if you want your never-ending Orwellian war-on-anybody to work, you have to occasssionally "neutralize" the "leaders" to keep public support going and build up that sweet, sweet right-wing bloodlust - but then it's straight back to "terra terra terra", as fear has always been the strongest motivator.

The poor saps who lived in Airstrip One staggered through life in a constant, befuddled daze as a result of the endless diet of alternating jingoism ("Victory! Victory!") and fear ("The enemy could attack us at home at any time!") that they were fed each day, and your average Bush supporter is much the same...

Do you honestly think Bushco actually wants to "win" this war (whatever the fuck that means)? Everybody pack up and go home? No more oil and terra for Dick and Donny to play with if that happens...

[peacebaby3]

75. Well, it certainly didn't work on any of the people I know. In fact, it

had the opposite effect. It just re-enforced how it made absolutely no difference who was over Al-Qaeda because there was always going to be someone to take that person's place.

A "war on terror" can't be won at the end of a gun. It can only be won by hearts and minds so you can't kill the supposed leader of Al-Qaeda and cripple the group. When the new leader immediately came out and captured and murdered these soldiers as well as taking credit for several bombings that took many Iraqi lives, it made the * admin. look foolish.

[beachmom]

101. Well, there are about 1,000 foreign al Qaeda extremists in Iraq

and 20,000 Iraqi insurgents. And I read a frightening story by an Iraqi (recently from Timeselect "Day to day in Iraq" series) that described things done by the Saddam regime like chopping the heads off of 400 women shortly before the war started. I'm not saying that story is for certain true, since I can't verify it. My point is that in the Middle East, beheading is their form of execution, and al Qaeda doesn't have a monopoly on the technique. As shown by the numbers above, isn't it more likely that Iraqis, perhaps influenced by al Qaeda or even working for them, did this, not foreigners? Whatever the case, we lose some moral footing when we don't have the standards of Geneva. We can't say "hey, what separates us from them is that we don't torture". We can't say that in the face of this extreme evil, and that's just sad.

[NNN0LHI]

102. Who says there are about 1,000 foreign al Qaeda extremists in Iraq?

Our government says it. Right? The same people who brought us a whole lot of other BS concerning Iraq. At this point we believe what our government tells us at our own peril.

Don

[beachmom]

105. This comes from the CIA -- the same people who are very

disgruntled with the Bush administration. John Kerry states this fact often in his speeches about Iraq to counteract the bogus statement by Bush that "we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here". You know, Don, I agree with you that you have to be skeptical about what our government says, especially when we're at war. However, I tend to believe this figure. I think that a country traumatized by so many years of death, terror, and torture under the Saddam regime is capable of these unspeakable crimes today. The foreigners definitely ramped it up with their suicide bomb attacks, but the place was certainly ripe for a horrid civil war, and hatred of a foreign occupying force. You also have to know about the Shi'ite militia Death Squads that are torturing people with drills before they shoot them in the head execution style. It is also an unfortunate fact that many young disaffected Iraqis are becoming radicalized and joining al Qaeda, much in the same way that this happened in Afghanistan in the '80s.

[davekriss]

115. I highly doubt that Saddam Hussein beheaded...

...400 women shortly before the war started. No flame intended, but do you have a reliable source for that claim?

[beachmom]

118. Iraq is the Tin Foil Hat nation of the world; however here is the info

This was in the NYT originally, but here it is from a blog:

http://donkeyod.blogspot.com/2006/06/day-to-day-in-iraq-parting-thoughts.html#links

Day to Day in Iraq - Parting Thoughts: Context, Context, Context

June 16
10:30 pm
Ayad Rahim

A lot has been made of Zarqawi’s televised beheadings, the first of which, of Nicholas Berg, was broadcast a month after I arrived in Iraq, on April 4, 2004. A few days before I left Iraq in April 2005, I saw on Iraqi state television a video from 1998, in which Saddam’s Fedayeen cut the tongues and lopped off the heads of three men in the center of Nasiriya, and then jumped around, waving the heads in the air – having recited Koran verses to begin the affair. In their waning days, the Baathists beheaded 250 to 400 women in Basra (putatively for prostitution; actually, for dissent), and posted their heads in public .

Saddam’s Fedayeen were not shy about their deeds. Huda and Ismail, who arrived in Cleveland in 1998, have told me about a Fedayeen training video that was broadcast repeatedly on Iraqi television. The video showed the men chasing down a dog (I’ve also heard about this, with a rabbit), then pulling out its spinal cord, passing it around and running it through their teeth.

* * *

Much remains unknown about Iraq – in particular, what happened during Saddam’s time. Human rights organizations estimate that he’s responsible for killing 2 million and 5 million people, which puts him behind only Hitler, Stalin and Mao. In addition, nearly 5 million Iraqis were deported or fled. Iraq’s population figures over the past three decades are quite telling. While Iraq’s population has grown by 50 percent, some of its neighbors’s populations have tripled (Syria’s, for example, went from 6 million to 18 million). Put another way, all things being equal, Iraq’s population is missing 25 million souls – its population could be 50 million instead of 25 million.

Something I’ve wondered about for a dozen years is how many people were executed each day in Iraq under Saddam. Former prisoners and guards have reported that prisons had two to three execution sessions a week, with four or five prisoners executed each time. Assuming one prison per province (there are 18), I initially came up with 20 to 38 people executed a day. In the ensuing years, as more information has emerged, I’ve had to keep upping that estimate. Recently, I heard the interior minister say that there are 1100 prisons and jails across the country. Supposing that in a quarter of those, inmates were executed at the rates reported by former prisoners and guards; that would come to 314 to 580 executions a day.

Here is Wikipedia on the author:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayad_Rahim

It's unclear whether he favored the invasion of Iraq or not. But it sounds like he has been studying the crimes of Saddam Hussein for a long time.

[davekriss]

121. You mean the same NY Times that

employed Judith Miller, uncritically publishing article after article of Bush propaganda? The same NY Times showcased so clearly decades ago in Manufacturing Consent? You might want to take a look at the Wikipedia entry and note who is listed as co-author. Laurie Mylroie. Bwwwaahahahaha!


(Sorry this is not a credible source in my book.)

[beachmom]

123. No, it was in the NYT Iraqi blog section -- different perspectives

from different Iraqis, like Zeyad and the Kid, who are highly critical of the U.S. Who is Laurie Mylroie? Does this place this guy with the neocons? Does this mean that we shouldn't believe the story? As I said, Iraqis are famous for their conspiracy theories (the latest involved Brazinsky - yes from the Carter administration - arranging for an Iraqi General to commit a coup and take over the country. I kid you not, and the Iraqis believed it.) I don't know if this guy is a liar or if he sincerely believes what he's writing. I mean -- Saddam was very evil, we can't deny that. Just because the war was a mistake, that doesn't mean these crimes didn't happen (I thought his numbers were stretching it, though). What do you think?

[davekriss]

125. Yes, it places this guy with the necons

Laurie Mylroie is a neocon at the outer envelop. She has only a thin wisp of thread left back to the reality the rest of us occupy. She has claimed that Saddam Hussein is behind kust about every major terrorist attack since the first Gulf War, including the Oklahoma bombings in 1995, 9-11 of course, and even the souring of milk in the elementary schools of our nation (ok, on the last point I exaggerate). Your author could sincerely believe what he wrote, but that doesn't make it true. His association with Mylroie, however, puts his honesty and ethics (imo) at serious risk.

I don't doubt that Hussein was an evil, brutal dictator. But the story sounds too much like Iraqi troops removing Kuwati babies from their incubators and throwing them to the floor. However, the US Hitlerizes every world-leader it seeks to remove since, well, Hitler. I am confident that alot of what we heard in the run-up to our illegal and immoral invasion (and since) was propaganda, not real, meant to manufacture consent and thereafter to reinforce and amplify that consent despite the obvious truths that go against everything Bush.

[beachmom]

124. Oh bother, Davekriss. Now I see the guy's name coming up

in Freeperville. I mean, he's an expat. I'm sorry for wasting your time with this. All the other Iraqi writers are really good, but this guy doesn't live there, so I don't think they should have printed his stuff. Again sorry about that. Information -- so much out there, but the hard part is discerning if it's GOOD information.

[davekriss]

126. No apologies necessary

As I said, just seemed too close to the Kuwati incubator stories to be real. :)

Regardless, I don't think there is any doubt that Hussein was a brutal dictator. However, I also don't think that fact justifies this war. Further, the hypocrisy of the USG with regards to which brutal dictators it will support, and when, and what steps it will take to subvert democracy and confound the will of peoples the world over, puts the probability that our troops are on the ground to foster a future Jeffersonian democracy in the middle east at about the same chance I have to win the lottery when I don't buy a ticket.

[beachmom]

122. Okay, he was a pro-war Iraqi. Here is his blog and this entry;

http://ayadrahimtriptoiraq.blogspot.com/archives/2004_03_01_ayadrahimtriptoiraq_archive.html

Friday, March 19, 2004
It was one year ago, today, that Operation Iraqi Freedom began. Iraq was, finally, about to be delivered from its...dungeon -- about to be saved, at long last.

Two days before, when President Bush gave Saddam and his sons 48 hours to leave the country, I had in my arms my cousin's baby boy. He and his mom, my cousin Seba, had just arrived in Cleveland, two days before that -- from Iraq, via Jordan -- to seek treatment for the baby, who was born with glaucoma. Hasanayn was just a few months old. Well, as President Bush uttered his words -- giving the...what-shall-we-call-them -- whatever they are -- giving them, 48 hours -- I whooped and hollered -- and said to the baby boy, "This is for you! This is for your future."

Actually, as I recall it -- now -- I was sitting, right in front of the TV, with the boy in my lap, and when President Bush said those fateful words -- I jumped up, with the baby in my arms -- gave a...what-do-we-call-it -- a pump of the arm, back -- the other arm, of course -- and, then, spoke to the boy.

What a great moment that was -- followed by many more.

Although he had family in Iraq, and he is Iraqi, he has lived most of his life outside of Iraq, which explains his joy of having Saddam deposed and a war he didn't have to experience first hand. He probably wanted to go back to Iraq and live there, and thought that when Saddam was gone he could. Obviously, his perception is that everything bad about Iraq must lead back to Saddam.

[cali]

67. Make stuff up often, do you?

Saeed was Al-Qaeda, and it's confirmed in numerous sources. Not hard to research. Here's one. Pearl's widow also asserts in her book that Saeed was a member of Al-Qaeda. There's been quite a bit of speculation that Pearl's death was revenge for the Wall Street Journal having tuned over an Al-Qaeda computer they stumbled across, to the US gov't.


"The only cases brought so far in connection with Pearl's death have been those against Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, the British-born al-Qaeda terrorist, who was convicted of kidnap and conspiracy to murder the American journalist, and three others who played relatively minor roles in the kidnapping. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/09/wpearl09.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/09/ixworld.html

"Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan, was headed by a Saudi, Osama bin Laden, and was composed mainly of middle eastern fighters."

So? You realize, don't you, that the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is quite fluid, and Al-Qaeda has indeed been present in Pakistan.


"Neither Pakistan's ISI, nor al Qaeda, have had much impact in Iraq. The people who killed those soldiers are neither Pakistani ISI, nor al Qaeda."

I see no reason to dispute you re the ISI, but why you're conflating the ISI and Al-Qaeda is a mystery to me. Your statement, with zilch to back it up that Al-Qaeda has had little impact on Iraq is less than compelling. I don't know how much impact AQ has had on Iraq, but virtually all reputable sources, not to mention the self-reporting of AQ itself, indicates that they have been present, and they have claimed responsibility for quite a few bloody incidents and kidnappings, including that of the two American soldiers.

Finally, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that "this is what "our enemy" is like", and I don't for a minute either buy into Rumsfeldian reveries of everlasting war, or the notion that Al-Qaeda is representative of Islamic culture.

Unlike some people, I don't buy my ideas wholesale. I research and think. Furthermore, I believe it's possible to entertain more than one idea within the same conceptual construct.

[ShortnFiery]

61. So I'm to understand that being be-headed makes ya "extra dead"?

And our "smart bombs" are oh so much more humane. Our pilots don't see the innocents being torn from limb to limb because it's done in a sterile environment. Guess what? They're just as DEAD and their family grieves just as much. :puke:

We (the USA and Coalitions) have NO RIGHT to claim MORAL highroad. Gee, I remember many countries in Europe using BE-HEADINGS in public squares during centuries past.

We are NO less SAVAGE than al Quaeda. You're sadly deluded if you honestly believe that killing civilians point blank is MORE HUMANE if you don't bother to cut their heads off afterward.

The self righteousness of some Americans makes me physically ill.

NO, we are also an instrumental part of this horror show through the occupation. :puke:

[cali]

70. Nope.

Bombs and missiles and bullets are also to be condemned. Yawn. Isn't that obvious? And it is a truism that if we hadn't entered invaded and occupied Iraq, these horrors would not be unfolding. Having said that, I recognize that it's exceedingly difficult for some of you to entertain more than one idea at a time within the same conceptual construct, but really, try.

I've said repeatedly that the US has forfeited its right to take the moral high ground, but do try and grasp this: I'm an individual. I am not the government of the US. I can condemn the US for waging an illegal and immoral war and condemn the excesses and actions of Al-Qaeda. Why it's not any more difficult than chewing gum and walking.

As far as beheading goes: If I had to choose, I'd rather a bullet to the brain or a quick death by bomb than being tortured and beheaded. Not that either is a good option, but since you seemed to suggest there's no difference, I just thought I'd give you my preference.

And my opinions have nothing to do with self-righteousness, but they do have a great deal to do with research and reflection.

As someone who has marched in DC against the war on three occasions, written many LTE, worked with my P&J group, and demonstrated locally, I do not consider myself culpable of the crimes of bushco.

[The Stranger]

77. No, that is not correct.

The torture at Abu Ghraib and other torture never reported was known to the Iraqis long before the U.S. government and military had to admit it was going on. In fact, the Iraqis tried to blow up the prison to end the torture going on inside.

So your statement that all of this would have happened without the U.S. conducting (and attempting to legalize) widespread torture is wrong.

[AllNamesHaveBeenUsed]

81. It goes back further than that...

There is no shortage of pre-war videos of other victims under the knife of Islamic extremists (e.g., Russian soldiers, Christian missionaries in SE Asia...).

[sproutster]

103. Are you kidding me?!

NM.

I think we should treat our citizens like that too - no lawyers, no release date, no trial and torture. Heck, here in ID we had a guy who not only lopped off the head of his ex, but he killed a mother and her child by driving into them head on.

THEREFORE - Everyone should be treated as animals because all criminals are alike, and if we suspect people they should be locked up and tortured because THIS GUY IN IDAHO lopped off the head of his wife and killed two more people.

[cigsandcoffee]

6. Can you document this?

In the beginning, they were treating our captives one hell of a lot better than we were treating theirs.

I'm not buying it.

[Divernan]

15. That female soldier from West Virginia?

nt

[Warpy]

28. Not sure about the stories still out there

but some of the captives who were released described being beaten, nothing worse. They said the food was adequate. Their lives were threatened, but they were not waterboarded, threatened with attack dogs, chained into uncomfortable positions for hours at a time, piled naked into homoerotic groups for the amusement of photograph taking guards, or raped with light bulbs.

I wish I could help find specific references. I'm seriously brainfarting this morning, can't remember the name of the private contractor who escaped (although I can picture his face) and was picked up by a patrol near Tikrit. If you can remember his name, that will lead you to a story of how the Iraqis treated our captives. There have been others.

[peacebaby3]

35. The Iraqis didn't have our soldiers, Al-Qaeda did and they have always

treated their captives this way. Torture and then beheading if at all possible. They are not a country and have never signed on or followed the Geneva Conventions so even though the * admin. are worthless violators of the conventions, Al-Qaeda is and has always been just as bad and in reality even worse. They are all evil people.

[Warpy]

51. The first aim of propaganda is to dehumanize the enemy

Thanks for reminding me.

[ShortnFiery]

66. Yep, what were "The Gooks" in the 1966 are "al Quaeda" in 2006 ...

Gotcha ... and those body count numbers will just a keep on a coming until we "declare victory" and exit from THE GATE OF HELL! ;)

[beachmom]

108. Well, al Qaeda seems to be very pleased about this propaganda

They're the ones who videotaped Zarqawi beheading that American Nicholas Berg. There is a Dutch website, I think, that captures that stuff, and somebody I know actually watched it. Um. It's not like a guillotine where they lop off the head in one swoop. It's like you're chopping down a tree with an axe requiring several blows. It is absolutely barbaric. And THEY put it up on the internet. So, sorry -- you can't blame the U.S. government for the crimes against humanity committed by al Qaeda. However, once they are in our custody, it would be nice if we had a government that had a moral compass and passed on to the military the absolute necessity that they adhere to the Geneva conventions EVEN IF the enemy doesn't. Why? Because that's what defines America and the West. You take that away and we're just greedy capitalists growing fat on our materialism. No. America is better than that. And holding ourselves to those ideals is absolutely necessary to win the GWOT, which is largely a war of ideas. (paraphrasing John Kerry)

[ShortnFiery]

65. Bugga Bugga al Quaeda (foreign fighters) are in SMALL numbers in Iraq ...

Every dead Iraqi will be deemed "al Quaeda" by the BushBotBorg and their sycophants! :puke:

Aren't they (al Quaeda) a very small minority in Iraq today? Less than 1000 is what I'm hearing?

In asymmetrical warfare, the smaller side has to get "the biggest bang for their buck." The mutilations ONLY affect the LIVING. And that is on purpose. Please note that the individual is no less dead. If I had a choice of being tortured to death OR smartly being beheaded (see French Revolution), I'd choose the latter. For sure! ;)

No, Iraqi insurgents most likely did this act / killing. Hello? We are occupying THEIR country and our bombs, albeit sterile, MUTILATE also.

There is no boogieman here, there are only war atrocities committed on BOTH SIDES.

[me b zola]

99. peacebaby,

Following the dictates of the Geneva Conventions is about who we are, not about who we are in conflict with and whether or not they are signatories to or follow the Geneva Conventions.

Even people toeing the WH line now admit that there are very few foreign fighters in Iraq. It was Iraqis who did this to our men, but the WH doens't want to shatter their purple finger lie about how the Iraqis love us. It hurts to realize that our men & women in uniform are being used as fodder. Most Iraqis had at least neutral feelings about Americans at the beginning of our occupation, but now close to 80% say that it is okay to kill American soldiers. Think about that. There is evil, but it is eminating from the WH, and BOTH our soldiers AND the Iraqis are victims of the BFEE.


Peace

[peacebaby3]

109. me b zola, I have never said anything about excusing this government

for not following the GC, but many on this board have said because the * administration did not follow the GC that this is what happened to these soldiers. I believe what happened to these soldiers would have happened whether or not we followed the GC, but it certainly doesn't excuse our government's behavior regarding this matter.

I do not believe that Iraqis (unless they are now members of Al-Qaeda) killed the soldiers. It has happened before to other people when Al-Qaeda has been involved. Sorry, I think evil resides in both the WH and in the leaders of Al-Qaeda and I condemn both of them for their barbaric practices.

If it was the Iraqi people, I would like to see some proof. Al-Qaeda in Iraq has claimed the killings.

Edit: typo

[peacebaby3]

48. And you shouldn't buy it. We're talking about different groups of people.

There are now many different factions and groups active in Iraq. It's a complete cluster f*ck created by the * admin. so it depends on which group captures you in determining how you will be treated.

Many people on this thread want to lump all Middle Eastern people in together, but it's simply not true.

Al-Qaeda in Iraq/Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia which is believed to be the same group which was under Zarqawi who followed Osama were the group that captured, tortured, and murdered these two soldiers. The have no qualms about killing innocent Iraq men, women, and children either.

[beachmom]

87. Yes, and as McCain aptly said: if not in this war, then in the next

A lot of right wingers will say that this enemy does not recognize the Geneva Conventions, but this is a code for America for EVERY war. Obviously, the Nazis and Japanese abused our prisoners (although not all), yet we stuck with that principle . . . until Bush/Cheney.

[izzie]

8. Well how can any one be shocked

I just read a book about the nurses of Bataan and one on trying to save Jewish children in WW2. It has been a life time of war and killing and we seem to be into it more and more. That really up sets me. Didn't we learn anything?

[leftyladyfrommo]

10. This is what happens when men who have never seen war try

and start one.

I wish the whole adm. had to go to Baghdad and work in the morgue there for just one week.

[Daphne08]

21. Yes, it is. n/t

[izzie]

23. We had no home land deaths in world war 2 and just look

at the figures of all these countries that did not want to go to war. The number of service men was low when you look at Fr. Russia etc so I think that has some thing to do with how easy we now seem to go to war.Plus now we keep the press away from the war and no one even sees the dead come home. I guess if we saw the house next door blow up and body parts around the place we would do some real thinking. I my self have never seen war first hand and feel very lucky but I did make sure when my daughter wished to work at a navy hospital during Vietnam that she could. I felt she should see it and so did her sailor father. A lot of people thought we were just bad parents. Then I have met people who said children should not see old people as they are up setting.

[davekriss]

46. I may be predisposed to my anti-war views...

...but I recall a moment in my childhood filled with grief and revulsion. Time Magazine (or similar -- large format, mostly pictures) did a piece on an Army hospital in Vietnam. It included pictures of maimed soldiers, what looked like people completely ripped in half yet sewn back together again, others with most of their head gone, but gruesome stitching where attempts were made to sew up the holes. It left me believing, at a very young age, that this should not be.

One does not react to natural disasters in the same way. Hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes will happen, people will die. But war and similar crimes -- these things do not have to be. That we bring forth such evils just saddens me. We as a nation should be very very sure before engaging in such incredible violence. Of course, this time, war was unnecessary and we knew it before the first bullet was fired, which makes circumstance even more tragic today.

If I could wave a magic wand...such were the fantasies of youth...

[izzie]

84. I do understand. War has been in the news reels my whole life

Why does it not stop

[davekriss]

43. That is a sad fact

What we observe today really is business as usual, part of the long bloody march of history. We (some of us) can be a sadistic, violent species despite thousands of years of high culture, love, and sweet tenderness at home.

Peace requires strong action by people inclined to other things.

[Toots]

9. The USA will reap what it sows

It ain't so pretty or just a college prank when they do it is it? I blame the GOP for these horrible happenings around the world. These soldiers want to fight for the GOP instead of America then they have no bitch.

[cali]

11. Care to respond to my post about

Danny Pearl? Or is it inconvenient?

[Toots]

24. I'm sorry I don't recall Danny Pearl

If it happened during the Bush* Administration though I won't find it surprising no matter how brutal it may be. America does not want or support torture but the GOP does. Remember they are "Outraged at the outrage" and not at the act itself.

[dogday]

25. Danny Pearl was a Wall Street Journal Reporter

who was investigating the shoe-bomber story..Looking into Al Qaeda links in Pakistan... It was a very dangerous thing to do on his part...


http://www.time.com/time/search/article/0,8599,411458,00.html

[The Stranger]

79. Danny Pearl wasn't in Iraq, and this was pointed out to you above.

[cali]

82. That. Was. Not. My. Point.

For about the tenth time, I was pointing out that even before the US invaded Iraq, before the US abandoned the Geneva conventions, and before US forces committed crimes against the Iraqi people, AQ's treatment of those they captured was predictable.

[The Stranger]

91. Then. Your. Point. Is. Wrong.

Before the Iraq wars of the past few decades, the U.S. was chummy with Al Qaeda, supported them through the C.I.A. and provided them with the latest anti-aircraft missles and technology. They sure as Hell weren't beheading U.S. forces back then.

[cali]

95. That has nothing to do with my argument.

Zippo. None. Nada. Yes, the US. funded an embryonic AQ- as well as other groups fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. It does not negate my point, that before the US invaded Iraq, Al-Qaeda's treatment of those they captured was much the same as it is now.

[The Stranger]

106. Of course it does.

You responded to a post that said "The US will reap what it sows" with something about Daniel Pearl.

[texasleo]

13. people who compare us to them are shameful

give one example of an Iraqi tortured and beheaded.


ONE!

[HamdenRice]

39. It may not be up close and personal, but when an Iraqi

gets hit by a 50 cal machine gun for failing to understand American hand signals, or is blown to bits by a bomb dropped by an F-16, the gore is just as bad.

If there never had been an invasion, there wouldn't be American soldiers being beheaded.

Or do you agree with bush that we have to fight em over there so we don't have to fight em over here?

[dogday]

40. I can assume that people were killed

by our bombings.. Trapped underneath the rubble, left to die.. That must of been torture in itself... I would also assume that people's heads were removed by force of blast of rubble falling on them...

Bombs are no kinder to people than beheadings... :shrug:

[davekriss]

47. See post #40. Think Abu Graib

I think being pummeled to death or sliced to death, either way, it's torture and immoral.

But don't lose sight of my point in post #40, and that is we should judge the criminals, and not generalize from these particulars -- neither to America as a whole, nor about the "enemy we face" in Iraq.

[rman]

55. It is shameful to ignore our own atrocities

You don't mean to say that you believe the Bush admin when they say the US doesn't torture, do you?

[raccoon]

60. Tell that to Ali Ismail Abbas. nt

[ShortnFiery]

62. Hey the Brits and all our illustrious EUROPEAN Ancestors

have relied on be-headings to "make their point."

Damn, it's racist to claim that we (white Europeans) are LESS SAVAGE than those "little brown people."

This SICKO self-righteous delusional perspective reminds the talk about "Savage GOOKS" during the Vietnam War.


Bugga Buggs the NATURE of their COMMIE DNA makes THEM (GOOKS) less than human. :sarcasm:

Bullshit! Check yourself, you're embarrassing the rest of us. :thumbsdown:

[The Stranger]

80. One example of an Iraqi tortured? There have been thousands.

THOUSANDS!

[Divernan]

14. Other report said ID was only possible using DNA

So this report gives no new details about what was done to these soldiers before or after death - other than that booby trap/IEDs were set up with their bodies. And that is nothing new - bodies have been boobytrapped in this war and in earlier wars.

I expect that the grisly details have been circulating throughout Iraq, meant to frighten Iraqis out of serving in the Iraq military forces. It tells me enough that DNA was the only way to identify the bodies - I've experienced maximum horror looking at photos of victims on both sides of Bush's war already.

As to the Geneva Convention, abandoning it did not set civilization back only a hundred years. While it was adopted on August 12, 1949, and went into force on October 21, 1950, it took milennia - thousands of years of human combat for rulers/governments to jointly reach a level of "civilized" warfare to put it in place.

[Virginia Dare]

17. We invaded and are occupying a country...

where, contrary to what most Americans think, we were not invited to do so. There is deep hatred and anger about this occupation. It will only get worse.

[NNN0LHI]

18. Who was that guy who said "Bring 'em on!" by the way? n/t

[npincus]

27. why unable to determine whether both had been beheaded?

wouldn't that be obvious? No disrespect intended to those poor men.

[leftyladyfrommo]

31. I wondered about that, too.

But I think that the bodies were just so disfigured that they couldn't be identified.

[azurnoir]

32. Gee but Haditha has all but

disappeared hasn't it? Gee isn't it lucky for *co that those soldiers just happened to be left alone? I suspect the reason that DNA had to be used was not due entirely to mutilation, but infarct that they had been left to the elements for 2-4 days ie: heat around 100 degrees, scavengers(vultures etc) a body will decompose rapidly in those kind of conditions.

[lebkuchen]

34. We had 8,000 Americans looking for them

and they were found "not far from where they were abducted," and even then, were found based on a tip from an Iraqi.

How is it that with all the space technology we have, and all the troops on the ground/helos in the air, that it took so long to find these guys, giving their abductors plenty of time to plant bombs all around them?

Can we assume the Triangle of Death is completely out of the US's control? If so, then what was this small unit of low ranking soldiers doing there in the first place?

[ptolle]

128. tactical/strategic decisions

The last graf in the previous post asks a question I've been asking myself since this incident took place- just exactly how and why did this small group come to be placed in such an exposed position? Whatever the reason, It would seem to me to violate any precepts of sound military doctrine and sensible tactical decision making.

[ShortnFiery]

63. OK we immorally killed THEM just as dead, but we are some how

morally BETTER because they were not then mutilated. Right. :puke:

[peacebaby3]

88. Who has said we are morally better as a country? Some of the initial

reports in this case have said that many of the wounds were peri-mortem and I don't believe most Americans or Iraqis practice or support torture and if those initial reports are accurate then it would have had a lot of affect on what the victims had to endure before death.

[lebkuchen]

33. This happened the week Bush was full of mirth and merriment

How many Americans share his sentiments now?

Bush sent troops to Iraq for no good reason.

[radwriter0555]

38. No baby, these are the "enemies" the USA created. They weren't set loose.

They weren't caged criminals.

These are still people fighting savagely to defend their nation from the unlawful occupation of the USA.

[genie_weenie]

42. Can anyone reference a War in which

the rules of "Civilized" murder weren't routinely ignored? Sure, in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870/71 Napoleon the III was treated with deference and respect upon his capture but I'm not talking about the isolated incident or a half-remembered story, but an entire War which did not devolve into rampant murder and destruction.

This is asymmetrical warfare so this War in Iraq will begin to look more and more like: The 2nd Boer War, The Philippines Insurrection against the US, the French-Indochina War, The French/Algerian War, Vietnam.

I think all the kids over there should follow my example and get dog tags which show their religion as ISLAM.

[Roland99]

44. Oh, come on. They were just "letting off a little steam"

The Geneva Conventions are "quaint" anyway.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. The mutilators were under "stress". Like the guys at Haditha.

I have no sympathy for any of them.

[leftofthedial]

52. the payback for illegal, repressive occupation

including our own torture and other war crimes

is a bitch

by emplying barbaric treatment of detainees, including enemies and non-enemies alike, king george has let a terrible genie out of the bottle indeed. We can't expect our enemies to follow the rules we won't.

[The Straight Story]

68. So then, we need to step up our killing

They use all the tools they have, payback to us in any way they can. So if we are the same as they are, we should just drop a nuke and toast em all?

Wrong is wrong. Why is it so many excuse the wrongs of others or say it is all our own fault - and then spend hours bitching at us soldiers/bush/america and such, but give a pass to other people who do something evil?

[leftofthedial]

100. you must have misposted this

as it is wholly unresponsive to and apparently unrelated to what I wrote

wrong is indeed wrong. it's wrong when we do it. it's wrong when someone else does it. no one gets a pass.

but it's also now impossible, thanks to king george and his court jester alberto, for us to claim the moral high ground when torture, mutilation and other brutal acts are uncovered.

[Maestro]

54. The savagery knows no bounds.

I have little sympathy for those that mutilate bodies of American soldiers and at the same time I have little sympathy for those, neocon chickenhawks, that promote this war. What I am concerned with are the soldiers who, for the most part, are just pawns in this neo-con wet dream. It disgusts me. If we really wanted to get Al-Qaeda, we would have concentrated on building infrastructure and helping the poor people of Afghanistan while at the same time getting Osama Bin Forgetten. Al-Qaeda or those claiming to be Al-Qaeda never would have been in Iraq if it weren't for the neocons and the war. The only solution to protect our soldiers is to get out of Iraq now! Otherwise, this savagery will continue.

[ShortnFiery]

58. "This is the kind of enemy that we are fighting."

Guess what? Our torturers are no more humane than their torturers. :thumbsdwon:

The BushBotBorg will try to paint all Arab (and Persian) people as SAVAGE. :(

Bull Shit! We are *all* capable of such atrocities given the right DEPRAVED LEADERSHIP. :puke:

[LittleClarkie]

120. Seems to me a Pogo quote comes to mind

We have met the enemy, and he is us.

Something like that.

[Igel]

129. Isn't that pretty much

equivalent to painting all the US soldiers as savage?

Taking the properties of part of a group and asserting on the basis of group membership that those properties belong to the entirety of the group is ... a classic fallacy.

[Generic Other]

71. And this is somehow more brutal than white phosphorus bombs?

Of burned bodies of women and children? Of shooting at anything that moves on the streets? Of dragging men out of their homes and murdering them in front of their families who are begging the soldiers for mercy?

Just who is the enemy we are fighting? Iraqis? Or our own inhumanity?

[gkhouston]

72. this makes me sad. What would make me sick is discovering a

year from now that these poor boys were actually killed by U.S. operatives in some misguided attempt to stir up outrage and shore up lagging support for a misguided war. And frankly, given everything else that's happened in the last six years, that would sicken me, but it wouldn't surprise me a great deal.

[dailykoff]

116. Bingo.

Here's the giveaway: if it wasn't important to get this story out while Junior was in Vienna, do you think ANYONE would have known more about these two casualties than the other 2,500?

The DoD isn't exactly generous with information and when they are, there's always a reason.

[dysfunctional press]

78. what was the part that was supposed to make one "sick"...?

i didn't see anything new, or 'in-depth' reported in the article.

[peacebaby3]

89. Not much new in the article for me either, but I would hope that this

incident as well as all the other incidents from the debacle of death created by the * administration would make all of us sick.

[dysfunctional press]

96. what they're doing doesn't make me 'sick' at all.

i'm used to it from repukes...it's their nature.

it mostly just makes me angry.

[MrSlayer]

90. Not really much detail.

I was expecting graphic detailed descriptions from your headline. Still though, this is why I hoped that these guys had cyanide capsules on their person when it was first reported that they were captured. All the soldiers should carry them in case they are captured. You do not want to be at the mercy of these maniacs.

[Generic Other]

93. And should Iraqi citizens also be issued "capsules"?

"You do not want to be at the mercy of these maniacs." Unfortunately, that goes both ways.

[MrSlayer]

97. Perhaps they should.

Apparently you do not want to be captured on either side over there. But the soldiers especially should take this precaution because they are never going to be given a chance. Not every person we capture is tortured but every soldier captured will be. Every Russian soldier in Afghanistan was issued the pills in case of capture back in the 80's. The natives can be quite....creative in their methods. I've read some accounts that would chill you to the bone.

[applegrove]

92. Oh - don't post it then.

[LittleClarkie]

107. I hear what the Japanese used to do to their enemies wasn't too pretty

either.

Welcome to war.

[dailykoff]

112. If NeoCon propaganda MAKES YOU SICK, stop swallowing it.

:shrug: