Breast Ironing? And other awful stuff women put up with because

[leftyladyfrommo]

of idiotic men.

Have you heard of this? I hadn't.

It is a very common practice in Cameroon. Mothers iron the breasts of their young daughters (with hot stones) to try and slow down their development. They feel it protects their daughters from sexual attacks.

Great! Not only do young girls have to endure sexual mutilation now they are actually ironing their breasts.

What a sad commentary on our times. This world is just a very hard place for millions and million or women.

http://www.today.reuters.com

Lokk under "In Depth" Column

[genie_weenie]

1. Well, are you a cultural relativist?

Or do you think we should take up The White Man's Burden and go into these places and stop these practices?

[leftyladyfrommo]

3. I think we ought to help women in this world anyway we can

Usually that means education, education, education. It means upporting UNICEF and other agencies with programs that help women.

Although, I have to admit, it is easy to just think of hitting these men with baseball bats to try and clear their heads.

[Dr.Phool]

5. The first place to start with the baseball bat would be "Mommy Dearest"

The way I see it, she's the one doing the ironing.

[leftyladyfrommo]

8. Just to try and protect her girls from dangerfrom sexually interested men.

That is pretty sad.

[TheWraith]

15. You have a bit of a twisted viewpoint.

If the mothers were cutting off their daughters' nipples, would you still feel it was okay for the mothers to do?

In any event, I don't believe this story. It sounds way too much like the urban legends about perverse practices that everyone believes in because they want to condemn the behavior of others. I'd like to see some proof that this actually happens, and it's not like the last dozen stories of its type.

[Marie26]

17. Of course it happens

And who's saying this is OK?

Cameroon girls battle 'breast ironing' - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm

Breast-ironing: Cameroon's campaign against painful secret -http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060625/lf_afp/cameroonwomenhealth_060625222403

[pnwmom]

79. Thanks for the links. They provide a good background for this.

[havocmom]

12. No, start with the men who molest youngsters

whether they have budding breasts or not.

[ThomCat]

24. I agree. The problem is the molesters

who are so common, and so rampant, that something like this is seen as necessary.

[pnwmom]

74. According to this other article, the problem is NOT men. Or at least,

not men alone.

The problem is teenage pregnancies.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060625/lf_afp/cameroonwomenhealth_060625222403

Unlike many African countries, Cameroon enjoys relative political stability and has a highly rated educational system and one of Africa's highest literacy rates. But on the social spectrum, teenage pregnancy is a real problem here, as elsewhere in the region.

"It's all because breasts are a sign of puberty and that worries parents," said Flavien Ndonko, Ngo'o's co-author.

"Our study found that the practice of breast-ironing exists in practically all tribes, using objects as diverse as stones, spatulas, herbs, pestles, or heated banana peels," he said.

Beyond the uncertainty of whether it works, "the practice generally traumatizes the young girl and creates other problems," said Ndonko, citing a litany of "infections, cysts and even cancer" while other victims later find they are unable to breastfeed their babies.

[pnwmom]

41. What about the teenage boys the girls are getting interested in?

They're not just trying to protect the girls from molesting adults. They're trying to "protect" them from their sexuality, period.

[havocmom]

53. "They feel it protects their daughters from sexual attacks."

"Attacks', not the same as one's own sexuality.

[pnwmom]

70. "I could not stand the thought of boys spoiling her with sex."

"Many mothers have no regrets about ironing their daughter's breasts.

Most tools are warmed before pounding the girls' chests

"Breast ironing is not a new thing. I am happy I protected my daughter. I could not stand the thought of boys spoiling her with sex before she completed school," one woman explained.

"Unfortunately, television is encouraging all sorts of sexual immorality in our children."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm

[Scout]

133. exactly correct. n/t

[LostinVA]

38. No, she's also the victim in this n/t

[cigsandcoffee]

61. When speaking of different cultures...

..."education" can mean "brainwashing to accept a Western lifestyle." Who are you (or me) to tell these people how to live?

[pnwmom]

75. Torture is torture. This country's government recognizes the practice

as torture, and the LEAST we can do is support the people who oppose it.

[Clark2008]

86. This isn't about culture, it's about torture.

Look, I think it's ludicrous that in some countries a man can have more than one wife. I think it's demeaning to women, but, I understand that's their culture and the women might be raised not to mind what I consider blatant adultery.

But, in this case, the victim is a child, the reasoning behind it has nothing to do with her, but rather with the men and boys around her and it's painful - certainly abusive.

Abuse is not culture. It's just abuse.

[Scout]

135. the young girls have human rights ... fuck cultural relativity

girls and women everywhere have the human right to bodily integrity, and to a life free from sexual predation.

Stop the attacks on the girls by sexual predators, and the mothers will not feel a need to keep their daughters' breasts from developing.

Girls and young women wouldn't be genitally mutilated if it wasn't for the belief that men are entitled to young virgin brides, who as adult women will not be able to achieve orgasm (and may have much more serious physical problems) because his stupid ego and manhood and family honor would be damaged if she were able to function as a normal human being. The way to keep your wife from straying to other men isn't to cut out her clitoris, it is to treat her with dignity, respect and compassion.

If I were a young girl, and knew that someone could prevent these awful things from happening to me, but did not, I would be pretty fucking angry at the world.

[Marie26]

10. Spare the cultural relativism

This is not just a cultural practice, but a tactic of desperation because of the lawlessness in that country. The Cameroon government itself has declared this practice to be torture & a violation of human rights.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200606290857.html

[genie_weenie]

25. I'm glad the Government did that but

a Government is not Culture, Examples:

The Bush led Government of the US does not determine the Culture of The US.

The Masai who the Kenyan Government has been trying to absorb and destroy as a seperate people for years.

And from your link:

On arguments from some participants that breast ironing constitutes cultural aspects of some Cameroonians and that perpetrators don't carry out the act with the intention of inflicting pain, one of the panelists, Barrister Tanda Numfor, said any act whether cultural or not, and which is repugnant to social justice is punishable under the Cameroonian law.

[Marie26]

31. What is your argument?

Don't care? Apartheid was a "cultural practice" of South Africa, & no one hesitated to condemn that. I don't get why all of a sudden people argue "cultural relativism" when it comes to women's rights. This practice is not condoned even within Cameroon, where it is viewed (correctly) as a type of torture. So, how is it part of the "white man's burden" to condemn a practice that is condemned by Cameroon itself? Rape is also quite common in many countries, though condemned by the government. Should we argue that rape is therefore a "cultural practice"? No, it's a crime, just like this is. It's kind of beyond me why anyone would think this is something that should be acceptable to the world community.

[genie_weenie]

35. My arugment is how do you stop it.

Period. How do we get the practice abolished.

The reference to the white mans burden is apropos. When Europe went into Africa and Asia to set up their Imperial Empires they also felt it was their duty to stop practices which according to their sensibilities were barbaric, wrong or unchristian.

I never said it was acceptable.

[Marie26]

36. Here's how

You've side-stepped inadvertently into one of my pet peeves. This is not a "white man's burden" thing; it's a human rights thing. This practice has been abolished in Cameroon - the fact that it continues illegally doesn't mean that it's somehow acceptable there. So how does it impose cultural values to condemn this practice when Africans themselves condemn it? That's what I don't get. We abolish the practice the same way the international community abolished genocide, or apartheid, or crimes against humanity. The first step is for the UN & (more importantly) national leaders to speak out against the atrocity; then for national leaders to educate the population & enforce laws against it. That doesn't mean this can stop it completely & forever, but it can reduce the incidence of such practices and inform people about the dangers that it poses. Bad things happen all the time, but that doesn't mean it should be shrugged at or looked at as a cultural thing. That's a sure way to prevent improvement.

[readmoreoften]

71. But your argument isn't "how do we stop it?"

Your argument is that no one should try to stop it. Certainly practices have different meanings in different cultures. If marriages between 13 years olds are common in Cameroon, it may mean something different. But some things mean about the same thing. Should we tolerate the execution of gay men in Egypt because it's "their culture." Especially when gays in Egypt reach out to international organizations. What are they supposed to say? "It's all relative in your culture?"

We don't need to send troops into a country to correct the practice-- although we never send troops to other countries for noble reasons anyway. But certainly, if women are going to their government complaining about this practice-- enough so that they pass a law against it-- certainly we can stand with them and condemn the practice.

[genie_weenie]

128. Please show me my post

wherein I wrote "No one should try to stop it".

Here are the facts, short of troops or sanctions, some nations are going to have segments of their populations which conduct practices many consider barbaric.

As to your execution in Egypt response, if I pointed out antiquated mores and ways of thinking in Islam or Christianity I'm sure I'd get angry responses about bashing religion or for a being racist.

Finally, getting riled up and full of righteous fury at me does not, in fact, stop any of those practices. And standing with those abused condemning the practice really doesn't do much.

[tblue37]

62. Bride-burning is a "cultural practice" in

some rural areas of India.

[pnwmom]

42. And IGNORANCE isn't always culture either.

Sometimes it is just ignorance.

[Marie26]

54. Exactly!

And ignorance is something that can be cured w/knowledge.

[satireV]

120. Actually ignorance is a choice

And merely providing knowledge does not mean they will no longer choose to ignore.

Proof: George W. Bush

[pnwmom]

131. Sometimes it's a choice and sometimes it's just ignorance.

[pnwmom]

76. The practice is spread across different ethnicities

different religions, and different regions of the country -- but 3/4 of Cameroons do NOT practice it.

So where is the "culture"? It's just an old practice, rooted in fear and carried out in ignorance.

[genie_weenie]

130. Please point out my post

where I stated Culture Can only be practiced by 1 type of people or 1 religion or 1 region.

Culture crosses many of those boundaries.

What is your definition of Culture?

Are the 1/4 of Cameroons who practice this to be put down by any means necessary?

[pnwmom]

132. How do you define culture?

Mine would be: a set of customs that belong to a certain defined group of people.

Breast ironing doesn't belong to any particular culture -- it just happens to be practiced in various parts of Cameroon, among people with different cultural backgrounds.

Where do you come up with: "are the 1/4 of Cameroons who practice this to be put down by any means necessary"?
NO ONE ANYWHERE in this thread has said anything remotely like that. People have said that it is sad that practices like this still exist, people have said that more education is needed, but NO ONE has said that it is our job to "put anyone down" by any means at all.

[genie_weenie]

138. Culture & More

Well, ignoring the idea that each human is a culture of one, i'll go with a set of set of values, ideas, beliefs, and behaviors shared by members of a society. And the people doing this do have at least one thing in common, they live on the African Continent.

Post #91 I say lets stamp it out any way that we can.

And I know you've responded to many in this thread. Do you think all the copper wire around the pee pee, grab twist & pull, castration, glue his prick to his ass comments are all Hyperbole?

The problem I have with many posters is their Righteous fury over this inhumane procedure is not going to help one iota. Getting angry and typing some terse statements on the DU is not going to stop this torture.

How do we combat this? You stated earlier that I was offering a False Dichotomy. I don't really think so. If there are not people in the countryside of Cameroon aggressively inhibiting the breast-ironing, IMO it will continue. Do you think standing up and voicing solidarity with the women tortured by this practice will accomplish anything?

Do you think we will be able to get enough Doctors without Borders into Cameroon to teach women not to do this?

Should we write our Congressman to get him/her to vote funds for the WHO and/or the Cameroon Government?

Do we have rallies with "important" people voicing their outrage over this practice?

Should we seek to have the UN send workers or the Peace Corps into the country to teach men not to rape?

Do we try and get education dollars into Cameroon to "instruct" the people that the behavior is barbaric in the eyes of the world?

Let me apologize though if you felt I attacked you personally, which was not my intent, I've just been frustrated with so many posters who think they've scored some major victory or moral coup by posting how much they hate Behavior X or Crime Y. To me, much of it is the tired old method of voicing one's concern in order to feel morally superior.

[idgiehkt]

91. stop with the cultural crap

oppression of women is a system. you could say it's a cultural mind-set only if you believe the entire world is one culture. I say lets stamp it out any way that we can. But kudos to you for endorsing torture. I guess since people pretty much set up their own 'culture' in every setting they are in, we shouldn't have objected to the 'culture of torture' at Abu Ghraib.

[genie_weenie]

125. what kind of baloney are you talking about?

First, I never stated "oh well, it's their culture", we shouldn't get involved.

Second, please define culture. Please define system.

Third, when people start using the I say lets stamp it out any way that we can. argument you have expressed, you endorse the Bush Doctrine of going into Nations. Too bad if that upsets you, but stopping the "horrors" is the exact argument Bush et al have used and continue to use for our continued presence in Iraq.

Fourth, thanks for telling me I endorse torture. In several of my posts I said I disagree with the practices and I asked for realistic ways to stop them. Getting upset at me does nothing.

Fifth, did you get all filled with righteous indignation and puffed up with Zeal at typing such a incisive post. What have you done to stop any of the misogynistic practices on going world wide?

Thanks.

[Triana]

72. thank you...

...it's damn well TORTURE -- as is a lot of this type of crap that is done to women in order to "protect" them from men who are not expected by society to CONTROL themselves - so instead they torture women to try to control THEM.

It makes NO sense at all and it is torture and it is inhumane. Why should women bear the torture and burden of MEN'S lack of control (or society's lack of the expectation that they should HAVE any?).

Bullshit.

[pnwmom]

40. It IS a sad thing that in so many ways, in so many parts of the world,

women face mistreatment because of their sex, and fear of their sexuality.

But you're offering a false choice. The poster didn't suggest going anywhere.

Why is it that some people will try to justify almost ANY practice, no matter how harmful, if it is viewed as "cultural"? Slavery has been a cultural practice. Does that mean we should look the other way?

And I don't know why you call this a cultural practice, since three-fourths of people in Cameroon DO NOT practice it, and it is AGAINST their law.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm

[genie_weenie]

50. Please see post #35.

Laws can be just or unjust. Societies can be just or unjust. Fine. I never justified the action. Foot binding, ear disking, neck streching, lip disking, female circumscion are all done in parts of the world, I do not agree with any of these practices.

But, the prime question is: If you do not agree with the practice how do you stop it? And if I do not take an active hand does that mean I am doing something wrong?

[pnwmom]

69. We obviously cannot stop every evil in the world.

But one small way we can help is by sharing information that we do have. Even if only a tiny fraction of women in Cameroon, for example, have access to this information, THEY can then spread it to others there.

[idgiehkt]

89. oh please

abuse is abuse, regardless of where it happens. Misogyny is misogyny, ditto.

[Catherine Vincent]

2. Cringe!

x(

[leftyladyfrommo]

4. Course we all slept on huge brush rollers when I was young

That was pretty bad. We had to hang our heads off the bed because the rollers hurt so bad.

Or look at the people that are having their feet operated on so they can wear the new fancy in high heels?

But that was different - it was self-inflicted. Whole diffrent ball game.

[MamaBear]

14. Brush rollers!

They were torture! I was so happy when straight hair became fashionable. And I slept better, too.

Thanks (?) for the memories! :hi:

[leftyladyfrommo]

18. How could you forget brush rollers! I still have dents in my head.

[pnwmom]

43. I tried sleeping on rollers one night, and last for maybe an hour.

High heels? Not until Birkenstocks sells some.

[MamaBear]

6. I've got a better idea

Take the guys and iron their penises with hot rocks. I'll bet they won't be in the mood to rape and pillage for a while. Sauce for the goose ...

:popcorn:

[leftyladyfrommo]

9. That is way better. n/t

Or maybe they could just wrap the penises of small boys in copper wire so that they can't grow. Like they used to do to women's feet.

[ThomCat]

26. I agree that men are the problem

but inflicting that on young boys... x(

I figure that you're probably not serious, but damn. Let's not compound attrocities with more attrocities.

[leftyladyfrommo]

27. No, I like little boys.

We just need to help them grown up with a whole lot better attitudes about women.

[ThomCat]

32. Agreed.

Of course, once they grow up and decide to become rapists then I have a lot less compassion for them. I'll help with the copper wire and soldering.
:grr:

[leftyladyfrommo]

56. I've gotten kind of hard hearted. Men do awful things to women.

And it seems to be a pretty commonplace idea that it's OK to rape women - just part of being a guy, I guess. And then shame the women or stone them or something. Like in Darfur. All of those women that have been raped are then shamed and most look forward to a life lived completely outside the community.

For God's sake! It is just too awful for words.

[pnwmom]

73. This isn't just about rape. It's about "immorality" and female sexuality.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm

"Breast ironing is not a new thing. I am happy I protected my daughter. I could not stand the thought of boys spoiling her with sex before she completed school," one woman explained.

"Unfortunately, television is encouraging all sorts of sexual immorality in our children."

Anthropologist Dr Flavien Ndonko says that breast ironing is not an effective method of preventing early sex and pregnancies because many of the girls still become pregnant. He recommends plain talking between parents and their daughters.

"What you have to really do is talk about the issue of sexual reproductive health with the child. So that she is aware about what it means growing up and having breasts or having periods," he says.

[bobbolink]

127. The thought hurts, doesn't it?

[geomon666]

7. Why do the women have to suffer because men are out of control?

How about instead of burning the breasts of these girls, how about you take some of these men and glue their pricks to their asses. I think that'll stop the temptation.

[leftyladyfrommo]

11. Well, that is the big questions, isn't it? Men are out of control

and women suffer. Happens all over the world - all of the time.

Poor women who wear burqas from head to toe - so that men won't become aroused. That is simply pathetic.

[pnwmom]

44. Couldn't the girls themselves have sexual feelings that the parents fear?

Maybe they'll kiss a boy, or get pregnant.

Or are we assuming that these girls are all victims of female genital mutilation, too?

[DesertRat]

16. good idea!

Removing their balls might help too.

[pnwmom]

77. The parents quoted here are concerned about their girls' sexuality

as much as the males around them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm

[pnwmom]

84. The girls are suffering because their parents are out of control.

According to this article, it isn't rape and lawlessness that is at the root of this -- it's unwanted teenage pregnancies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm

[Child_Of_Isis]

13. They feel it protects their daughters from sexual attacks.

Blowing a few dicks off would probably be more effective.

[deaniac21]

19. I'm sure the men would agree to that one.

[leftyladyfrommo]

23. When it comes to this kind of stuff I don't think the men get a vote!

Women everywhere need to unite to help stop this stuff.

The only way women here got rights was by causing the huge stink that could be heard all across this nation.

Now we need to do it again - for the rights and lives of women everywhere.

I think we should make a platform of the Democratic Party - equality and justus for women everywhere!

[MamaBear]

37. Disarm 'em

When a man uses his penis as a weapon, he needs to be disarmed, for the good of the community.

We take away their guns, we take away their knives. Time go to all the way.

Man, I'm in a mean mood today!

[deaniac21]

51. But her wording is

>Blowing a few dicks off would probably be more effective<

the men I know would be rejoicing....

[Child_Of_Isis]

57. LOL...

Okay...you got me. SHOOTING a few dicks off with a shotgun...:silly:

[deaniac21]

67. Fruedian slip?

:blush:

[MamaBear]

60. Too twue.

:rofl:

[pnwmom]

80. If you read the BBC article, it isn't the man that's wielding a weapon.

It's the mother who is afraid of the consequences of her daughter's sexuality.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm

[sendero]

20. Exactly..

.... training the daughters in the art of the scrotum pull and twist would probably be time better spent.

[pnwmom]

87. And what if the girls are actually enjoying themselves?

How come no one seems to have thought of that possibility?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm

"Breast ironing is not a new thing. I am happy I protected my daughter. I could not stand the thought of boys spoiling her with sex before she completed school," one woman explained.

"Unfortunately, television is encouraging all sorts of sexual immorality in our children."

[lukasahero]

92. You really think 9 year old girls are out looking for sex and "enjoying

themselves"? "At 10, I already had fallen breasts and each time I undress I'm ashamed"

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/07/07/cameroon.breastironing.reut/index.html

Talk about the classic "blame the victim"...

[pnwmom]

102. I'm not blaming the girls at all. I'm saying that the mother's fear

of the daughter's developing sexuality appears to have a lot to do with this.

Nine years old is a common age for girls breasts to begin to "bud," so it is not surprising at all that that is when the mother would do this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060625/lf_afp/cameroonwomenhealth_060625222403

Bessem Ebanga, executive secretary of RENATA and herself a victim of breast-ironing, said the practice occurs in all the country's 10 provinces, crossing religious and ethnic bounds. "Though the top prize goes to Littoral province where it affects 52 percent of all girls," she said.

"The aim of RENATA is to prevent young girls from being subjected to what we were," she said.

Unlike many African countries, Cameroon enjoys relative political stability and has a highly rated educational system and one of Africa's highest literacy rates. But on the social spectrum, teenage pregnancy is a real problem here, as elsewhere in the region.

"It's all because breasts are a sign of puberty and that worries parents," said Flavien Ndonko, Ngo'o's co-author.

[lukasahero]

107. Your words: "And what if the girls are actually enjoying themselves?"

Again, I'll ask, do you really think 9 year olds are enjoying themselves here?

[pnwmom]

108. No! I'm saying that the parents are trying to keep them from developing--

in the fear that they may "enjoy themselves" too much with boys when they are teenagers.

But breasts in girls start to develop several years earlier -- as early as 8 or 9 -- when the hard lumps called "buds" form. This is the logical time for a person who wanted to stop breast development to intervene.

[idgiehkt]

93. that's duress.

conform or there will be economic and social consequences. That is not freedom to enjoy oneself.

[sendero]

104. In that case..

.... the pull and twist manoeuvre would most certainly end the fun for both of them :)

[Jax]

137. Repulsive

that is sick "And what if the girls are actually enjoying themselves"

One of the most disgusting posts I have read on DU...

You do like to blame the victim, especially women and girls....

:puke:

[pnwmom]

45. They may say that. But I think they're trying to prevent sexuality

in their daughters, period.

[MamaBear]

49. In order to ensure their daughter's full and happy life ...

:sarcasm:

[MamaBear]

85. Are you for real?

:shrug:

What is to DEFEND here? The MEN attack their girls, so the WOMEN mutilate their DAUGHTERS to protect them from the MEN who think that having sex with a virgin will cleanse them of HIV.

Any mother who wants to iron the sexuality out of her daughter is no better than the MEN who would ruin a young girl's life, either for their own "health" OR for their own pleasure.

In other words, (because you seem to be having a problem with this), if the mothers didn't feel they had to PROTECT their DAUGHTERS from out of control MEN they wouldn't be hurting them.

As for the "sex with virgins" reference, I would introduce you to this handy site: http://www.goggle.com. You'll find plenty of references there.

[pnwmom]

90. Can you read?

"Breast ironing is not a new thing. I am happy I protected my daughter. I could not stand the thought of boys spoiling her with sex before she completed school," one woman explained.

"Unfortunately, television is encouraging all sorts of sexual immorality in our children."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm

Unlike many African countries, Cameroon enjoys relative political stability and has a highly rated educational system and one of Africa's highest literacy rates. But on the social spectrum, teenage pregnancy is a real problem here, as elsewhere in the region.

"It's all because breasts are a sign of puberty and that worries parents," said Flavien Ndonko, Ngo'o's co-author.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060625/lf_afp/cameroonwomenhealth_060625222403

[pnwmom]

96. Who are you answering in this post?

Because I didn't say anything about HIV or sex with virgins.

[Poll_Blind]

21. Holy shit! If I live to be 500 with the imagination of Walt Disney on...

...acid I will never think up the shit people do to each others and themselves.

PB

[porphyrian]

22. I thought that's what a mammogram is. - n/t

[leftyladyfrommo]

29. Were mammograms invented by men?

Most likely.

[porphyrian]

34. I'm sure the current machines were.

It's funny (read "reprehensible") how the bulk of data on women's health is less than 50 years old. As I'm typing there's and erectile dysfunction drug commercial playing on TV. Laugh or cry?

[leftyladyfrommo]

55. Cry! or Laugh! Both help sometimes.

Did you see where something like 65% of women who had breast cancer to do not go back for mammograms. They don't want to know.

I thought that interesting because the "cure" is so awful. And women then have to try and live with that incredible fear for the rest of their lives. I think the fear might actually be more awful than the disease.

[porphyrian]

65. My mom's a breast cancer survivor.

She volunteers at a hospital, and sometimes talks to other women who are diagnosed with it. When she was diagnosed, she went ahead and had a double mastectomy so that she could sleep better, but she still has to get x-rays every so often to be sure, although they've been clean so far. My dad had lung cancer, among other things, and pretty much died of the cure.

It's reprehensible that there is so much wealth in this country, yet no cure or treatment any less barbaric than chopping things off or poisoning people in hopes that the disease dies before the victim.

[Child_Of_Isis]

58. A friend told me

that when men start having their balls squashed with a machine is when she will start having mammograms.:evilgrin:

[ThomCat]

63. Ow ow ow ow ow ow ow

x(

[porphyrian]

66. It's not quite the same thing, but that's true.

Breasts don't rupture as easily when squashed, though I don't doubt that it's painful. However, I would say that just the real threat of doing so would make a cure magically appear in no time.

[KaptBunnyPants]

113. I hope your friend doesn't develope breast cancer...

Dying painfully is hardly a way to express your empowerment. It's not like mammograms came about to make men happy.

[Solo_in_MD]

126. Physics drive the designs of the machines

Painting physicians and medical equipment developers with the same brush as the fashionistas, is less than fair. I know too many women working in onocology to let that one pass.

You may return to the culture vs abuse flamefest currently in progress...

[Tsiyu]

28. Scold's bridle

My summer read this year is Edward Rutherfurd's London.


An excerpt:

" It was not a pretty thing, the scold's bridle. Foul-mouthed women were sometimes sentenced to wear the little iron cage that fitted over the head, with a cruel iron bit to immobilize the tongue."


This in late Thirteenth century London, where the brothels were owned by the Bishop. When the whorehouses became a mess, regulations were drawn up for the brothels, preserved in Latin and English in the diocesan library, those regulations ending with the phrase: "To the Honor of God and according to the laudable customs and regulations of the land."


So, if your wife bitched you out, you could put her head in a metal cage and go hang with the prostitutes.

Modern-day British men can only wish to have it so good, huh?

[leftyladyfrommo]

30. that and the chastity belt.

Why not just make women stay in dog crates.

Why do we put up with stuff?

[Marie26]

33. Don't forget feet binding

And sometimes I think we still see the vestiges of these practices in our clothes today. Corsets & foot binding becomes girdles & high heels. It's all part of the continuous war to control women's bodies. (Oh, IMO)

[On the Road]

52. As far as Foot-Binding Goes...

My girlfriend is from mainland China. Her great-grandparents decided that their daughter could marry up and have better financial security if her feet were bound, so when her grandmother was small, they began the process of wrapping her feet. She fought and put up such a stink that her great-grandparents relented, took the bindings off, and let their child grow up with normal feet.

Gives you a little hope. Things are often not absolute.

[mmonk]

39. Does physical attributes

mind to a rapist? I assumed rape was a power crime, not a sexual attraction crime (unless the possible date rapes). Anyway, these girls shouldn't have to pay like that. I would vote for castration for rapists before subjecting the girls to anything like mutilation.

[lukasahero]

46. The idea that rape is a crime of power

is still relatively new here in this country.

In America words like "she shouldn't have worn that...", "what did she think would happen...", "she shouldn't have put herself in that position...", "she should have been more careful..." are still spoken in all sincerity during discussions of rape. (Seeing a pattern here? "She" "She" "She"...)

Women who are raped in the Middle East can be stoned to death for the dishonor they bring to the family. (Oops, there's that "She" again...)

Why would we expect mother's in Africa to be as "enlightened" about this crime as we are in the west? Obviously education is still needed here as well as in Africa. Someday, maybe, we will stop making women (young girls, children) pay for the crimes of men.




Adding routine disclaimer since I know I'm going to get jumped on for it - not ALL men rape... OK? One might even go so far as to know no real man rapes - at least that is my experience.

[mmonk]

48. I agree this is just another way to blame the victims.

That's the whole problem with this barbaric mutilation.

[ThomCat]

64. That is well said.

Whenever discussion of rape turns to the victim (and it always does) it's to blame her and exonerate the men.

[LostinVA]

78. Thanks, Thommers...

[pnwmom]

81. This really isn't about rape, according to the BBC's article.

It's about putting the brakes on a girl's developing sexuality.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5107360.stm

[lukasahero]

83. According to a CNN article, it is

at least partly: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/07/07/cameroon.breastironing.reut/index.html

"The practice is now more common in urban areas than in villages, because mothers fear their children could be more exposed to sexual abuse in towns and try to suppress outward signs of sexuality, the survey said."

Edited to add: It could, of course, be about both. Ultimately, i'ts about lack of education.

[seemslikeadream]

47. The world's three biggest "forgotten emergencies"

"IT'S THE WORST HUMANITARIAN TRAGEDY SINCE THE HOLOCAUST"


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/seemslikeadream/30

[lonestarnot]

59. WTF?

[Cleita]

68. Wow! This reminds me of the old legends of the Amazons.

They would burn one of their breasts off, when they were children so it wouldn't interfere with the shooting of arrows with their bows. The Amazons, of course, refused to live with men except for short periods to get pregnant and continue their tribe.

[Hubert Flottz]

82. I had a lady at the mall tell me something scary one day!

She said, "Sir I'm going to have to staple your bag, if you come in here!" Needless to say I got the hell outta' there ASAP!

[Ksec]

88. Dont blame men.

Youre the idiots doin these insane things.

The way I see it no matter how bad you wanted me to iron my hoohaw I would never even consider it. If these women would show some pride they wouldnt do such idiocy.

[idgiehkt]

94. I absolutely love threads like this.

I get to find out who the hard-core trolls on this site are without lifting a finger. Thanks.

[pnwmom]

99. And what sort of opinion does a hard-core troll express on this issue?

[KaptBunnyPants]

115. Probably that all men are rapists

Or that all men should be sexually assaulted, humiliated, tortured, or castrated. I never understood why so many feminists hated ALL men, as if we were all in on the grand conspiracy to subjugate women. You would think that they would have found at least one man in their life which would give them reason to hold onto hope for the rest of us - a brother, father, husband, child, or even just a friend. But I guess we all suck...

[pnwmom]

118. Some women may well have had only negative experiences

but I'm not one of them. I had other male relatives and my husband to make up for problems with my father.

And mothering two boys has had a big part in my own growth.

[pnwmom]

121. self-delete (dupe)

delete

[ComerPerro]

95. but why would women do this to other women? You seem to be

overlooking that

[idgiehkt]

97. because of the consequences.

which are always poverty, rape and/or death. The men come in when you looks at who impoverishes, rapes and kills the women that don't conform. That's pretty universal.

[ComerPerro]

101. Its not just men. Condi is impoverishing these people, she's a black woman

[pnwmom]

98. Fear and ignorance. And perhaps it was done to them.

[Ksec]

100. Because its easier to generalize about those evil men

than it is to look at why women are willing to do this shit. Villifying men is a pastime to some of these people.

[lukasahero]

105. Knock it off and read the f'in article

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/07/07/cameroon.breastironing.reut/index.html

These mothers think they are protecting their daughters from sexual abuse and rape. That's the reason they say they are doing this.

[pnwmom]

109. I think you should read the WHOLE CNN article.

It says that mothers were worried about the onset of puberty -- as heralded by breast development -- causing sexual harassment AND interfering with girls studies AND causing stunted growth.

I also think many parents -- even in Africa -- are in denial about their daughter's sexuality. They may SAY they want to protect their daughter from ABUSE when they actually don't want their daughter to have sexual activity at all.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/07/07/cameroon.breastironing.reut/index.html

"You ask me why I did it?" said Moungang. "When I was growing up as a little girl my mother did it to me just as all other women in the village did it to their girl children. So I thought it was just good for me to do to my own children."

SNIP

"The survey found that in 58 percent of cases breast ironing was carried out by mothers worried that the onset of puberty could provoke sexual harassment, inhibit their daughters' studies or even stunt their growth.

"Many mothers were alarmed because an improvement in nutrition and living conditions had caused young girls' breasts to develop earlier than ever."

[lukasahero]

103. According to a CNN article

mothers are doing this to "protect" their daughters from sexual assault and harrassment. They believe that if their daughters are not overtly sexual, then they will not be assualted. (Hmmm... sound familiar?)

It's lack of education on the part of the mothers and it's the victimization of women on the part of men. Both need to be addressed.

If these mothers hadn't been victims themselves, if they didn't think their daughters would be raped, if they understood that rape isn't a crime of arousal, then maybe they wouldn't abuse their daughters like this. If men didn't abuse and rape these women, then maybe we could convince them they don't have to "protect" their daughters.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/07/07/cameroon.breastironing.reut/index.html

I know we would all like to make it a simple black and white situation with a one word answer, but it is more complex. It does however boil down to the abuse and torture of young girls and it needs to be stopped.

[ComerPerro]

106. Its no different than James Dobson advocating beating children

in order to teach them values and protect them from the devil.

Its bad parenting.

[pnwmom]

112. Not just to protect them. To keep them busy with their studies and

to keep their growth from being stunted -- at least, according to the CNN article that you referenced.

[sandnsea]

117. Learned helplessness

When you don't have value in your society and when you can't affect change, you do whatever you think or are taught you should do to protect your daughter or make them fit into the society and not be attacked or ostracized. Burqas, wrapping feet, modest clothing, no makeup, whatever. This stuff doesn't stop in any society until women realize their value as women.

[pnwmom]

124. Right. And societies dictate that women wear burqas or iron their

daughter's breasts or sexually mutilate them in order to control the girls/women, not to protect them.

[sandnsea]

136. Exactly n/t

[pecwae]

110. Very few men can understand

this obviously; except Thom. This is in Cameroon and cannot be compared to life in the US.

[Ksec]

111. Thats because were not as smart as you

[pnwmom]

114. Thank goodness.

[omega minimo]

116. Maybe it would work better

if they ironed the penises :shrug:

"It is a very common practice in Cameroon. Mothers iron the breasts of their young daughters (with hot stones) to try and slow down their development. They feel it protects their daughters from sexual attacks."

[Blue_In_AK]

119. When I saw your topic

I thought you were referring to mammograms.

[pnwmom]

123. Me, too actually

ouch

[pnwmom]

122. HIV risk higher due to lack of info and poor parent-child COMMUNICATION

According to this U.N. related article, mothers are too uncomfortable to talk about sex and HIV with their girls, so they try to delay their puberty instead.

http://www.firstglobalselect.com/scripts/cgiip.wsc/globalone/htm/news_article.r?vcnews-id=326013

SNIP

Flavien Ndonko, an anthropologist with GTZ's German-Cameroon HIV/AIDS health programme, noted that this painful form of mutilation could not only have negative health consequences for the girls, but was also a futile form of sex education.

"Many of the RENATA girls, who are young mothers, say they were subjected to 'ironing', and this clearly proves that it does not work and that it is a futile and traumatic experience imposed on them," said Ndonko.

SNIP

"For the parents, it is very difficult to talk of sexuality due to modesty or for cultural reasons ... So they prefer to get rid of the bodily signs of sexuality in this way," Ndonko commented. "However, the onset of adolescence is exactly the right time to start this discussion."

Because the topic of sex was taboo, young girls remained ignorant of how to protect themselves from HIV infection and were even more vulnerable to the virus, said Bessem Arrey Ebanga Bisong, executive secretary of RENATA.

[ismnotwasm]

134. I was just looking up HIV stats in Cameroon

As well as general info. It's quite possible HIV originated in Cameroon

http://www.banderasnews.com/0605/hb-hivorigins.htm

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cm.html
17,340,702
"note: estimates for this country explicitly take into account the effects of excess mortality due to AIDS; this can result in lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality and death rates, lower population and growth rates, and changes in the distribution of population by age and sex than would otherwise be expected (July 2006 est.)"

The practice is horrible and akin to other sexuality controlling mutilation or suppression or sexuality of young girls or women. I sometimes wonder if the fear of AIDS keeps some of these practices alive. The literacy rate isn't in the cellar.
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 79%
male: 84.7%
female: 73.4% (2003 est.)
When there is some sort of education infrastructure in place, it gives me hope that the loving women and men of the world CAN change these types of practices. There is work being done in many African countries by volunteers and activists. The fact that it's made the news is probably a good thing. If it's not a hidden practice that no one is going to know or care about, these women can be reached.

Governments get in the way of course and that asshole bush manipulating funding for organizations that fight for reproductive rights didn't help.
http://www.reproductiverights.org/pub_fac_ggrbush.html

[pnwmom]

139. I bet you're right. I think it is akin to practices like female genital

mutilation.

And you get the same kind of cultural arguments in that kind of discussion.

But nobody here says "women wouldn't have to wear burqas if men didn't rape them."
So they shouldn't be saying "women wouldn't need to iron girls breasts if men didn't rape them."

[pinto]

129. Just a reminder about civility in discussion forums:

It's a standard we work hard to support in our member discussion forums. Your consideration is appreciated. Thanks.

"The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, some of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior. The fact that the rules do not forbid a certain type of post does not automatically make an uncivil post appropriate, nor does it imply that the administrators approve of disrespectful behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

[pinto]

140. Locking.

Thanks for your consideration.