Pentagon FORBIDS troops to buy better body armor

[kpete]

Army Orders Soldiers to Shed Dragon Skin or Lose SGLI Death Benefits


By Nathaniel R. Helms


Two deploying soldiers and a concerned mother reported Friday afternoon that the U.S. Army appears to be singling out soldiers who have purchased Pinnacle's Dragon Skin Body Armor for special treatment. The soldiers, who are currently staging for combat operations from a secret location, reported that their commander told them if they were wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin and were killed their beneficiaries might not receive the death benefits from their $400,000 SGLI life insurance policies. The soldiers were ordered to leave their privately purchased body armor at home or face the possibility of both losing their life insurance benefit and facing disciplinary action.



The soldiers asked for anonymity because they are concerned they will face retaliation for going public with the Army's apparently new directive. At the sources' requests DefenseWatch has also agreed not to reveal the unit at which the incident occured for operational security reasons.

http://www.sftt.org/main.cfm?actionId=globalShowStaticContent&screenKey=cmpDefense&htmlCategoryID=30&htmlId=4514
via:http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/1/16/133331/558

[sproutster]

1. F'ing murderers!! Corrupt fu...heads!

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. What?! What the heck?!

[bpilgrim]

3. they are DAMAGING rummy's IMAGE, don'cha know?!?

ssshhhHHHH... we're hunt'n terrorist!

more...
http://GlobalFreePress.com

peace

[rodeodance]

12. simply unpatriotic isn't it

insert sarcasism

[napi21]

4. Can't we send that to McCain or some other influential Sen on

the Armed Services Committee? I wouldn't want to get the soldiers into any trouble but the only link would be to the reporter who wrote the story.

[rodeodance]

7. soldiers claim Dragon suits are more protective than US issured armour.

....As of this report Saturday morning the Army has not yet responded to a DefenseWatch inquiry.



Recently Dragon Skin became an item of contention between proponents of the Interceptor OTV body armor generally issued to all service members deploying in combat theaters and its growing legion of critics. Critics of the Interceptor OTV system say it is ineffective and inferior to Dragon Skin, as well as several other commercially available body armor systems on the market. Last week DefenseWatch released a secret Marine Corps report that determined that 80% of the 401 Marines killed in Iraq between April 2004 and June 2005 might have been saved if the Interceptor OTV body armor they were wearing was more effective. The Army has declined to comment on the report because doing so could aid the enemy, an Army spokesman has repeatedly said.



A U.S. Army spokesman was not available for comment at the time DW's original report (Friday - 1700 CST) was published. DefenseWatch continues to seek a response from the Army and will post one as soon as it becomes available. Yesterday the DoD released a news story through the Armed Forces News Service that quoted Maj. Gen. Steven Speaks, the Army's director of force development, who countered critical media reports by denying that the U.S. military is behind the curve in providing appropriate force protection gear for troops deployed to Iraq and elsewhere in the global war against terrorism. The New York Tiimes and Washington Post led the bandwagon of mainstream media that capitalized on DefenseWatch's release of the Marine Corps study. Both newspapers released the forensic information the Army and Marines are unwilling to discuss.

[rodeodance]

8. WaPost and NYTimes being praised for their stories on this.

......A U.S. Army spokesman was not available for comment at the time DW's original report (Friday - 1700 CST) was published. DefenseWatch continues to seek a response from the Army and will post one as soon as it becomes available. Yesterday the DoD released a news story through the Armed Forces News Service that quoted Maj. Gen. Steven Speaks, the Army's director of force development, who countered critical media reports by denying that the U.S. military is behind the curve in providing appropriate force protection gear for troops deployed to Iraq and elsewhere in the global war against terrorism. The New York Tiimes and Washington Post led the bandwagon of mainstream media that capitalized on DefenseWatch's release of the Marine Corps study. Both newspapers released the forensic information the Army and Marines are unwilling to discuss.

[rodeodance]

9. Rummy is probably busy making up a story on this.

[libertypirate]

5. Ahh freedom /nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

6. I will take a deep breath.

A couple of points. If the dragon skin does not work as well as the standard issue, and this is intended to save their lives, I can see that.
If the dragon skin prevents them from doing their jobs, I can see that.
If they fear that this will cause an escalation of potential problems, (troops picking their own weapons, transport, uniforms, etc,) I can see that.
If, however, this is the rummie rum rum rum decision intended to prevent news of how bad our troops are treated, I CANNOT SEE THAT.
in that case I will join the poster above and add more emphasis.

[C_U_L8R]

10. On a related note....

what's this about "currently staging for combat operations from a secret location"

Who are we invading now??? (as if I have to ask !)

[rodeodance]

11. read also the purchasing armour is a tax break--looks like has

to be particular kind of armour.

[benburch]

15. What does a suit of this stuff run? nt

[Richard Steele]

19. According to that article, six thousand dollars.

"Another soldier's story was corroborated by his mother,
who helped defray the $6,000 cost of buying the Dragon Skin, she said. "

[One_Life_To_Give]

62. The Cost explains the problem. Destroys unit moral.

Try to order six soldiers to go do something. When half have $6000 a piece body armor and the other half don't.

Either everybody has it or none have it.

[Richard Steele]

88. You make a fine point. Thank you; I hadn't thought of that.

"Try to order six soldiers to go do something, when half have $6000 a piece body armor and the other half don't. "

That actually makes alot of sense when you put it like that.

Of course, in a world run by SANE people,
the obvious solution would be to provide the better
armor to the 3 who don't have it.

[PegDAC]

90. Either everybody has it or none have it.

Then this is what the Pentagon should be buying! It reminds me of the old saying: "Nothing's too good for our troops. And that's exactly what they'll get!"

[Just Me]

13. UNFUCKINBELIEVABLE!!!!

,...not,...

Rummy NEVER GAVE A DAMN about our military,...except as profit-protecting fodder.

EW!!!! :grr: These neoconfreaks piss me off to NO FRIGGIN' END!!! :mad: Damnit!!!

[Nikki Stone 1]

14. So the lack of body armor was no accident.

The Bushreich is trying to destroy citizen soldiers in favor of mercenaries.

[sakabatou]

16. Bakana! (Impossible!)

Kore wa baka desu yo (This is so stupid)... :grr:

[Art_from_Ark]

57. Sonotori!

(You said it!)

[LittleClarkie]

17. The worst part of the article

was when they pointed out on Dkos that a major Republican donor owns 6% of the company that makes the crappy body armor. And that the generals go around in the good stuff (Dragonskin) they say because they are testing it out for suitability, while letting the rank and file go around in the crappy stuff.

And the Repubs had the gall to lambast Kerry for supposedly voting against said body armor. Why, because this guy wouldn't have gotten his money?

"Support the Troops" my ass!

[quiet.american]

30. I knew there had to be a Bush "Ranger" or "Pioneer" involved.

Thanks for the info. As soon as I read about this, I knew it had to involve a Bush crony who's involved with this inferior product and complaining about Dragonskin cutting into his profits.

[hobbit709]

44. "9 generals are testing the body armor in a combat environment"

RIGHT!!!! How many generals see combat up close and personal where they need the body armor?

[ClintonTyree]

82. Testing it within the Grren Zone.........

there's a lot of action there :eyes: You never know when a splinter of Lobster shell may come flying your way!

The horror.........the horror!

[aquart]

69. The Generals wear dragonskin?

THE GENERALS WEAR DRAGONSKIN!

There's your meme.

[yorkiemommie1]

79. aahh... my question answered

n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

18. This is outrageous!

They always keep doing something more outrageous to make me even more sick!

[wakeme2008]

20. Who's getting a kick back

"Currently nine U.S. generals stationed in Afghanistan are reportedly wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin body armor, according to company spokesman Paul Chopra"


The Fu_king Generals are wearing this product and I bet they did not pay for it.....

[Dunvegan]

60. You're right...accornding to the Pinnacle Armor website news page...

Pinnacle Armor awarded DOD contract for development of
"Flexible-Modular Body Armor For Armor Piercing Protection"

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/in-the-news.php

Fresno, CA (July 07, 2003 - 2005 extended) -- Pinnacle Armor announced today that it has been awarded a Phase 2, Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) contract by the Department of Defense (DOD) for the development of “Flexible-Modular Body Armor for Armor Piercing Protection.”

Pinnacle Armor’s Phase 1 contract successfully demonstrated a novel projectile defeat mechanism that could lead to a new, flexible, light-weight, multiple-repeat hit capable armor system to replace the current rigid body armor plate systems. The U. S. Army Research Laboratory, Weapons & Materials Research Directorate (ARL) in Aberdeen, Maryland, is administering the twenty four-month Phase 2 contract.

[Nikki Stone 1]

21. Who do we write to?

I get the impression that Feinstein is a waste.

[w8liftinglady]

23. Start with letters to your local paper,and go from there

Chances are,most people aren't even aware of this.Needless to say,I will.

[Nikki Stone 1]

29. I am pretty bad at writing LTTE. None of mine ever get published

But it's worth a try. I'm really mad about this.

[quiet.american]

39. It's definitely worth a try.

Mine didn't get published either, but I resolved to write one a day, and lo and behold, the NYT published one of my letters last week -- if only to stop me from writing to them every day, no doubt. :)

Keep on keeping on.

[baldguy]

76. That means you start writing TWO every day.

[quiet.american]

87. :) n/t

[htuttle]

22. The Bush Mob gets very cross when they don't get their 'cut'

Obviously, they make money off the contracts for the 'approved' body armor, and make nothing from the Pinnacle Dragon Skin. When troops buy their own armor, they don't make any money.

Come'on people, everyone's gotta have priorities! The Bush Mob's priority is making money.

[w8liftinglady]

24. A soldier's review of Pinnacle Armor

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_PArmor2,00.html






However, we were involved in a IED (improvised explosive device) attack and small arms fire on the XXX of XXX 2005.


After the contact, when I removed my tactical vest, I saw that I had taken hits in the back of my vest. They were 7.62x39mm (AK-47) and they were inches apart. I was hit in the back (and we checked, if I was wearing any other body armor, I would not be writing this to you), as it were both low hits (below the typical 10”x12” plate coverage). In terms of bruising, nothing whatsoever. I did not even KNOW that I was hit twice until I took off my tactical vest (this was after about 2 hours after the contact) and saw the damage. It was only then that we took a close look at my body armor that we realized I was hit twice by an AK-47. I had another ricochet hit around the top end of my back that may have caused serious injury to my lower neck.

I'm including some pictures of the vest (and the vehicle I was in, I was the vehicle commander, sitting right front.) I have no doubt in my mind that the vest saved my life. I lost three good men in my vehicle in this contact. I have to say that no amount of body armor could have saved them. The fact is, thanks to your product, I walked away from this (and I stress the fact “walked”.)

[Ready4Change]

32. Sounds like a merc. "Contractor." Not US soldier.

After reading the article I found the letter quoted came from a contractor, not a US soldier.

Not that that should degrade the worth of the anecdote. If anything, it should make us more outraged that a contractor, likely a merc, is equipped with better gear than we are allowing our own soldiers to use, for whatever fubar logic is involved.

Makes me wonder what Bush wears?

[ClayZ]

25. Holy Shit! They are stark raving MAD as hatters!

SHAME!

[w8liftinglady]

26. an interesting article from Navyseals.com

http://www.navyseals.com/community/articles/article.cfm?id=8354

-just read it-makes mention of the fact that pinnacle armor was superior,but really rips the exclusive contract given to armor holdings.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

27. Unbelieveable, even for these thugs. n/t

[roguevalley]

28. send this to your hometown and statewide papers. DEMAND ACTION!

[w8liftinglady]

31. more details-and some email addresses

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=827
Breaking News: Pinnacle Armor Dragon Skin vs. Interceptor Body Armor--Fight's On

[donheld]

33. Just when you think this country can't stoop any lower

Something like this comes out. Our leaders have NO shame.

[NuttyFluffers]

34. a death sentence... straight from their commanders.

they are murdering my fellow citizens, my soldiers who are trained to save me and my nation during our darkest hours. now my soldiers need me to save them from their darkest hour, and their enemy is the gov't of us all...

this must end now. all else is subservient to the quest to end this gross evil now. evil, utter evil -- and the only thing that matters is it must be stopped.

[OneBlueSky]

35. I have outrage fatigue . . . you think it can't get any worse . . .

and then you read something like this . . . unbelieveable . . .

[cornermouse]

36. If they're dead, its a one time comparatively small pay out.

If they survive in an injured state due to armor, the costs of medical care can be much higher when looked at in the long term.

Its a financial decision.

[Canuckistanian]

37. I'm at a loss here

It never stops. Like Mike Malloy says, just when you think you've reached bottom, there's something else.

[FighttheFuture]

38. WTF is wrong with Bu$hitCo now?!!! Scared of surviving vets?!!

Hmmmm.... interesting. It would seem they want the most effective killers to die off as fast as possible. Guess they figure it is only a matter of time when these trained prodigal pigeons will come home to roost and they will be in their crosshairs!!! Absolutely Pathetic of Bush, et. al.!

I feel sorry for any soldier cowed enough to leave their best armor behind, regardless of orders "from very high up". Ignore the order and go with it. Deal with it afterward, ALIVE!!!

Poor soldiers, cannon fodder, as always; fighting old mens' and a coke addled President's wars on the cheap.

[DeepModem Mom]

40. Outraged K&R.

[greiner3]

41. WYF? n/t

[Arkham House]

42. I Don't Get This

Is there more to this than we're seeing? Is there some *reason* the brass are giving about all this, some justification for their stance? I can't believe that *all* the top Pentagon people are the corrupt lackeys they appear, ostensibly to be... Do they have a reason, no matter how half-assed?

[tuvor]

43. It's cheaper to bury than to rehabilitate.

Sorry, I'm being cynical. :eyes:

[SpiralHawk]

45. "All your war-profiteering contracts are belong to us." - BushCo & Cronies

So shut up and sit down.

And don't forget: Big BushCo loves you.

[Dunvegan]

46. What I Demand to Know: When Bush, Rice, Cheney, Rumsfeld...

...Wolfowitz, et. al. are in-country in Iraq WHAT BRAND BODY ARMOR ARE THEY WEARING?

If it's Pinnacle (like the generals) I want to know...and I want to help that be known.

[IronLionZion]

47. Another case of Bush cutting costs to pay for his tax cuts?

yeah, way to support the troops. Clinton was president when I registered for selective service. Seemed patriotic at the time. Damn, I hope there's no draft.

[Dunvegan]

48. How about this 2003 promise to equip every soldier with armor?

New Body Armor Being Rushed to Troops in Combat Zones
from American Forces News Service
By Rudi Williams, American Forces Press Service

Nov 1 2003
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/weapons/a/newbodyarmor.htm

FORT BELVOIR, VA – The Army and Marines are rushing to get enough body armor into Iraq and Afghanistan by December for everyone who needs it, as fast as it comes off the assembly line.

"Body armor is saving lives," Moran emphasized. "There have been dozens and dozens of instances where body armor has saved lives of individual soldiers. We're producing that as quickly as we possibly can."

Army Col. John Norwood, PEO Soldier's project manager for soldier equipment, said all soldiers in Iraq will have body armor by December {2003}.

[Minnesota_Lib]

49. Oh the madness....I am for once at a loss for words....

[progressivebydesign]

50. Follow the money.

My first reaction is that that DoD and Rumsfeld are protecting their vendor, and their deal. From the info I read, it's a crony that is getting rich off of the body armor contract with the DoD. This new directive, if not based on anything concrete, is an outrage. If the DoD feels that there is some detriment to the troops by having competing armor, for whatever reason, then they need to spell it out immediately. If anything happens to those troops who were forced to leave the Dragon Skin behind, there will be hell to pay... their families will not take it well.

[Kurovski]

67. Yep. the following is from the DailyKos:

"... I asked myself, "Whenever something totally irrational threatens the safety of U.S. citizens, what is the underlying reason?" And, of course, the answer is simple: money."

"Now, if you had to hazard a guess as to who owns almost 6% of the shares of Armor Holdings, Inc. - shares with a current market value of $88,000,000.00 - who would you guess? Maayybeeee - a company owned by a top Republican campaign donor?...Yep, it turns out that the company that has the exclusive contract to supply body armor to the Army and Marines is home to a very heavy-hitting Republican campaign donor. Foster Friess, individually and through various family members, has contributed more than $575,000 to Republicans in the previous three campaign cycles, and has chunked in $51,000 so far for 2006."

...So much for the vaunted Republican theories on "free markets". The Pentagon is enforcing the purchase of an inferior form of protection by threat.

I'm outraged all over again. Bush has the most callous contempt for our troops I've ever seen, and his contempt results in death.

[Time for change]

51. Jesus -- Don't they even have an excuse for doing this?

It's unbelievable to me that they can get away with this crap. I guess that's the way it is when you have the CM protecting your every step.

[Dunvegan]

52. Found it...the Secret Service Wears Dragon Skin by Pinnacle...

If the Secret Service is wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin...then by extension we have to think it only reasonable that Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, et. al. wear it when in-country in Iraq.

But DynCorp and Blackwater (see red highlighted quote below) get their Dragon Skin, youbetyerlife.



From http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,78927,00.html

Getting America's Best?
DefenseWatch | Nathaniel R. Helms | October 19, 2005

It is good enough body armor that nine American generals in Afghanistan are wearing it in place of the standard "Interceptor OTV" armor issued to the troops they command. It offers such great protection that the U.S. Secret Service agents guarding the President of the United States wear it, and it is good enough that a civilian contractor in Iraq was shot eight times in the torso at close range and survived without even suffering soft tissue trauma. But the same armor, already in mass production, is apparently too expensive to provide to the men and women fighting and dying in the Global War on Terror (GWOT) every day.

The armor is called Dragon Skin and there is nothing particularly new about it. Dragon Skin has been made since 1997 by Pinnacle Armor, a small Fresno, California company with 30 employees. It is called Dragon Skin because it is manufactured from small overlapping armor plates that lay atop each other like ancient chain mail, explained Pinnacle spokesman Paul Chopra, "or like fish scales, but my boss didn't think it sounded too sexy calling it "Fish Skin."

[Dunvegan]

53. We need to get this out there LOUD: If Dragon Skin is good enough for Bush

...why is it illegal for our troops to wear it...even if has to be privately purchased?

This is a troop-hating outrage!

Support the Troops stickers on SUVs indeed. Bah.

[tanyev]

54. Pentagon to families: Go ahead, laugh

When the stress of the war in Iraq becomes too severe, the Pentagon has a suggestion for military families: Learn how to laugh.
With help from the Pentagon's chief laughter instructor, families of National Guard members are learning to walk like a penguin, laugh like a lion and blurt "ha, ha, hee, hee and ho, ho."

No joke.

"I laugh every chance I get," says the instructor, retired Army colonel James "Scotty" Scott. "That's why I'm blessed to be at the Pentagon, where we definitely need a lot of laughter in our lives."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-12-pentagon-laughter_x.htm


I think this article needs to be posted to every military thread from now until the troops come home.

:grr:

[Kurovski]

70. Go ahead and laugh Bushco out of Government...

now and forever.

I'm all for that.

[Dunvegan]

55. Why have they virtually "outlawed" Dragon Skin...I have a guess...

It could be this:

"A secret Pentagon study has found that as many as 80 percent of the Marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to their upper body could have survived if they had had extra body armor."

Well...if there is a subsequent study of casualties among soldiers wearing the official-issue Bush crony armor company's product in contrast to the non-issue and superior Dragon Skin...well, you fill in the blank.

Protect profits among friends at ALL costs.

[Qanisqineq]

56. Shut the fuck up

Just shut the fuck up. This is ludicrous. No, it just can't be true, it is too... beyond words. What the fuck? The world has gone insane.

[dwp6577]

58. It's incredible that I'm not even shocked...

I've been numbed by chucklenuts (thanks Mike) and Co. I doubt I'd be surprised if he were lining up dissenters for execution...USA (aka bizzaro-world)

[newyawker99]

85. Hi dwp6577!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Kalisiin]

59. WTF?!!??!

What does the Army want these boys and girls to do?? sit up there like clay ducks for our enemies to pop away at??
Pro-life, my ass!!

[Horus45]

61. Someone high up is taking bribes from Interceptor!

<EOM>

[JPZenger]

80. $10 Million Bat Mitvah Paid for with armor profits

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/11/29/164552/71

The above story describes how the CEO of the sole supplier of the Army's crappy body armor spent $10 million of his profits on his daughter's bat mitvah. Of course, the guy is politically connected.

[Virginian]

63. This war may not really be about oil.

It might be all about war profiteers.

[Dunvegan]

64. You mean it can't be about both?

[Virginian]

68. OK, Both. Not JUST about Oil.

[BattyDem]

65. So this is how they "Support the Troops"

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[stevietheman]

66. It's clear: Rumsfeld likes seeing our boys die. n/t

n/t

[AngryOldDem]

72. That's the sick, sad impression one gets, isn't it?

I've always had the image of both Rummy and Bush playing war with plastic soldiers on a desktop in the Oval... much like the colonel in the Bill Murray movie, Stripes.

Pisses me off.

[AngryOldDem]

71. Then if they don't want them using this armor....

THEN ISSUE THEM SOMETHING THAT IS ACTUALLY WORTH A DAMN!

Oh, I forgot...that would cost money.


:mad:

[Trevelyan]

73. Where is that link to the story about the $10 million Bat Mitzvah by a War

Profiteer who had a contract for the very defective armor and who was being investigated by the SEC and I think had contacts with the Abramoff scandal??

Make sure you write everywhere to STOP ALITO, so that the Abramoff and Cunningham scandals are fully prosecuted.

[Trevelyan]

74. I have read that Sen. Dodd is Bilderberg - Don't know - write to him since

he has a section on his website about armor for our soldiers.

http://dodd.senate.gov/

Attention Military Personnel and Families

Did you know that Senator Dodd authored legislation which was signed into law last year, requiring the Department of Defense to reimburse troops, families, and charities for any equipment they purchased for use in Iraq and Afghanistan? This year he authored a bill to provide expanded coverage for those purchases. If you purchased body armor or other safety equipment for use in Iraq or Afghanistan between September 11, 2001 and July 31, 2004, you might be eligible for reimbursement. Download the Defense Department's Reimbursement Form DD-2902. Air Force Discharging 4500 Personnel

[w8liftinglady]

75. Point Blank armor-RNC contributor;

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?city=WESTBURY&st=NY&last=brooks&first=david

[Gronk Groks]

77. At least we now know what armor to buy for the upcoming revolution...

...because if we don't get these criminals out of the government in 2006 (or at least indited), that is what it is going to come down to.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vinca]

81. If you "support our troops" you might want them to have

body armor that will actually protect them. This is beyond outrageous.

[ClintonTyree]

83. Let me get this straight........

"The soldiers were ordered to leave their privately purchased body armor at home or face the possibility of both losing their life insurance benefit and facing disciplinary action".

So if they're killed in action wearing this armor not only could they lose their life insurance benefits........but they could face disciplinary action as well? I know I'd sure as hell hate to face disciplinary action if I was dead. :eyes:

I know what they mean, but this is just plain nuts. Rummy the Dummy is always crowing about how, "we have the best trained and equipped Army in the world". I guess not Rummy! :wtf: If there's better body armor out there but our soldiers can't wear it because some bush donor's contract with the Pentagon won't allow it, then we DON'T have the best equipped Army in the world. We have the best BUSH DONOR'S equipped Army in the world.

The Dragon Skin Company better start heavily contributing to the RNC if they want to do business with the Pentagon! And our soldiers? They should be thankful there's a bush donor that makes body armor, as crappy as it is, or they wouldn't have any at all! :sarcasm:

[Joe Chi Minh]

84. I won't take up this point, as I fear a heart attack. I'm going to

pretend I didn't read it. It's too much to take onboard after everything else. I keep repeating to myself what I'd do if I were one of those squaddies. Or, rather what I wouldn't. I'd want a notarised certification from the Pentagon and the insurance company that I would not be penalised for wearing that dragon-skin armour... which they'd doubtless forge anyway. Actually, they'd just have to come round, or else.

If they did tried to deny to invalidate their insurance claims, I should think there would be such lawsuits and such a scandal back home, it would be the end of the Republican party. Period.

And just when everyone must have been wondering whether these snakes could sink any lower.

[Pacifist Patriot]

86. I'll say it again. If one of my boys were deployed right now I'd...

be heading to Iraq to bring my baby home. I'm all in favor of a volunteer military. As an army brat of a Vietnam Vet, I know the risks. But it's quite another thing to commit troops to an unjust invasion and fail to provide for their basic needs and protection. This is bullshit. I'm wondering when we're going to start seeing mass desertions.

[w8liftinglady]

92. it's bad when you're glad your kid was wounded-and won't be going back...

my kid is resigned to a desk job for the rest of his enlistment. bless these brave kids.I won't rest until they are all out of that place.

[Blue Velvet]

89. "YOU GO TO WAR WITH THE BODY ARMOR WE HAVE"

Now, why don't I think Rummy will bust out with that ol' chestnut o' justification this time around? Then again, nothing would surprise me anymore. Outrageous.

[PegDAC]

91. When do they f***ing end?

When do the outrages frigging end? I am (at least for the time being - Management is threatening to fire me.) a procurement official for the U.S. Army. If it were up to me, the troops would have the best and damn the cost!