783,936 people die in US each year from conventional medicine mistakes?

[Quixote1818]

Is this true? Holy Crap!

Toxic Drugs or Terrorists: Which One Kills You Quicker?


This Newstarget article argues that the horrible tragedy that was 9/11, and the lives lost that day to terrorism -- some 3,000 Americans -- is small compared to the number of Americans who die needlessly every day as a result of the mistakes of conventional medicine.

Six Airplane Crashes a Day

According to the medical report Death by Medicine, by Drs. Gary Null, Carolyn Dean, Martin Feldman, Debora Rasio and Dorothy Smith, 783,936 people die in the United States every year as a result of conventional medicine mistakes. This is the equivalent of six jumbo jet crashes a day for an entire year.

Another 1995 study stated, "The iatrogenic death rate dwarfs the annual automobile accident mortality rate of 45,000 and accounts for more deaths than all other accidents combined." And that study was issued before the Vioxx disaster killed 60,000 people all by itself.

104,700% Deadlier Than Terrorism

Since 2001, 490,000 people in the United States have died from prescription drugs, while 2,996 people in the United States died from terrorism, all in the 9/11 attacks; prescription drugs are therefore 16,400 percent more dangerous than terrorism. If deaths from over-the-counter drugs are also included, then drug consumption leaps to being 32,000 percent more dangerous than terrorism. And conventional medicine viewed as a whole is 104,700 percent deadlier than terrorism.

Continued: http://www.mercola.com/2005/aug/13/toxic_drugs.htm

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. practice makes perfect.

but remember, 9/11 changed EVERYTHING!

[Quixote1818]

2. True! I am just glad Bush has our priorities in line!

:banghead:

[beam me up scottie]

3. Mercola's a quack with an agenda.

He wants to sell you his "alternative" medicines.

But if you want to believe that he's doing this because he really cares about you, you'll have lots of company.

[Quixote1818]

5. I was going to say

Almost a million a year seems incredibly high. Do you know what the real stats are?

[beam me up scottie]

9. I think that statistic is fairly accurate.

But he uses it the same way freepers use poll numbers.

I had a link somewhere...I'll see if I can dig it up.

[SOS]

107. The number is way off

Dr. Barbara Starfield, of the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, writing in JAMA (vol.284, No. 4, July 26, 2000)
puts the number of iatrogenic deaths at 225,000 per year.
225,000/year makes iatrogenesis the 3rd leading cause of death in the US, after heart disease and cancer.

[Warpy]

7. Naw, even alternative medicines cost too much to waste on workers

He wants to sell you on the power of PRAYER, my brothers and sisters, let JESUS heal that cancer, cure that heart condition, make that crippling arthritis go away! Jesus is free for the asking, my friends, and prayer will never be recalled by the FDA!

For those who are dim tonight, that was :sarcasm: . But I certainly think that is where the party of the idle rich and the religiously insane is headed. They want to get our healthcare off the backs of the sainted corporation and put it squarely onto us, and we all know what that means.

Yep, you got it. Pray away, 'cause that's the only medical care we'll be able to afford.

[Bellamia]

25. I wouldn't put it "squarely on us"........

but one's health is very much in one's own hands, so to speak, regarding diet, exercise, smoking, drinking, even accidents could be largely prevented if people drove sanely.I acknowledge your sarcasm, but did you know that it IS possible to heal yourself; change your thoughts and you change your life.?

[raccoon]

94. What if somebody else is driving INsanely? nt

[KittyWampus]

79. JAMA Says Taking Prescription Drugs Is 4th Leading Cause Of Death

does JAMA have a "quack agenda" :eyes:

[MrMonk]

101. link it, baby.

I want to see JAMA's own words.

[SOS]

108. JAMA

is subscription only. To see it in JAMAs own words you'll have to pony up some cash.

[Horse with no Name]

4. The healthcare system is broken

The shortage (real and self-induced) of healthcare personnel creates mistakes.
When you are overloaded with patients and/or forced to work mandatory overtime and don't have time to slow down to think or adequate time to rest, mistakes happen.
The broken healthcare system should be the most important agenda item in our country.
Sadly, it is not.

[Warpy]

8. Well,don't forget that this figures likely includes

the patients who were unable to understand the dosage instructions on their medications and who injured or even killed themselves by taking powerful drugs improperly.

That happens a whole lot more than people are aware of and it results in a whole lot of unnecessary hosptial admissions a year.

[Horse with no Name]

13. read in AARP magazine this month

that acetominophen overdose (unintentional and intentional) is the most common cause of liver failure in the United States.
Acute cases liked to the drug rose from 28% in 1988 to 51% in 2003 (according to researchers report in the December issue of Hepatology).
I think this particular problem is due in part to the fact that acetominophen is included in just about EVERY OTC cough/cold/sleep/pain remedy, and more people medicate themselves because they can't afford to go to the Doctor.:shrug:

[MrMonk]

14. It also includes

situations where the doctor had to make an educated guess as to which diseases were causing the presented symptoms, where the doctor missed the disease because the expected symptoms were not presented, where the treatment of one disease masked the symptoms of another . . .

Mercola would have you believe that doctors are out there cutting on people and dispensing medications willy-nilly. The facts are that diagnosing and treating illnesses are based largely on inference. The correct diagnoses and most effective treatments are not immediately clear.

[knitter4democracy]

89. Amen to that.

My hubby, when he was in residency, would find that he'd written orders and given prescriptions to nurses during the night that he didn't remember the next day. That can happen when you're working 36 hours straight and 120 hour work weeks (yes, I added it up, and that's the real number).

Our healthcare system is a mess because of the profit motive, I think. If the nurses were in charge, things would be a lot better.

[Jeanette in FL]

6. This is what the AMA admits to

Can you just imagine if every day the headline in our newspapers were "Another 2000 Americans dead from Medical errors". I personally stay away from the medical community and only use alternative medical therapy.

[Quixote1818]

10. Do you have the AMA link? nt

[beam me up scottie]

11. Because they're not doing it for the money?

And of course, they're held to the same standards as science based medicine.

Right?

:eyes:

[MrMonk]

16. Alternative therapies can be dangerous, too.

I suggest that you stay away from both, and just wish your illness away.

[beam me up scottie]

20. Homeopathy.

Because the water remembers, you know.

[Odin2005]

12. Definitely sounds like a AltMed quack.

The use of the word "toxic medicine" shows this guy is preying on people's chemophobia.

The only reason alternative "medicine" works is the placebo effect, nothing more.

[Ladyhawk]

44. Yep. When my father was dying of cancer he and my mother

went to Mexico. I have no idea how much they spent on alternative medicine, but in the end, my father still died. I think the cancer came back because he stopped his chemo treatments. My brother thinks the cancer wouldn't have come back had my father never started the chemo treatments.

And as for health, my father did everything right after his surgery and was in better shape than most twenty-year-olds. Before the cancer he was an avid "juicer," making carrot, spinach and apple juice for himself every day. This is a response to an above poster who thinks that most illnesses and accidents can be avoided by good diet and exercise and driving carefully. Yeah, you can do all that and still end up dead in your early fifties from colon cancer. I'd just like to point that out. Quite probably my father was exposed to a carcinogen on the job. As an aside, he also let hatred of Bill Clinton and the "liberals" eat away at him, so that may be a component of his health he did not properly control.

All I'm saying is we're all going to need health care at some point, even if we treat our bodies very well. Me? I'm a walking chronic health problem. :( I'm trying to change that, but once an illness has taken hold, it's hard to fix it because you're too busy suffering.

[SPKrazy]

15. Never trust yourself to health care practitioners

without family or trusted friends looking out for you.

Too easy to get killed.

Hospitals are no place for sick people. Most iatrogenic deaths happen in hospitals: infections, wrong drugs to wrong person, bad reactions to procedures, etc.

[MrMonk]

17. Call a witch doctor instead.

:sarcasm:

[beam me up scottie]

19. Ooooo, even better, call

his holey-nest KEVIN TRUDEAU !

:rofl:

[MrMonk]

26. Do you mean this guy?

http://www.infomercialwatch.org/tran/trudeau.shtml

http://skepdic.com/trudeau.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Trudeau



And for another chuckle:

http://www.newstarget.com/011224.html

Comes right out and says that since sick people take prescription drugs, people who never take prescription drugs will never be (seriously) sick.

[beam me up scottie]

29. And lookit all the feebs who believe him.

You can't teach these people anything.

They believe the quacks because they tell them what they want to hear.

Pseudoscience is the new religion.


Like when they Sand Hill fundies tell the kids that the snakes won't bite if they believe in Jeebus.

And when someone gets bitten, it's because they didn't believe.

Of course.

Makes perfect sense.

Critical thinking is in short supply.

[serryjw]

39. I suppose that you think Johanna Budwig is a quack also

Most of western medicine is more dangerous than alternative/holistic treatment will ever be.

http://lightsv.org/bud1.htm

If you read as much about alternative healing as you do about politics you might have a more informed opinion. ALL of western pharma is poison. You don't get well from poisoning your body

[beam me up scottie]

40. All of western pharma is poison, eh?

Sorry, Kool Aid Fan, I read up on snake oil a long time ago, before I decided to partake.

And western pharma has kept my father alive and cancer-free for years, helped my friend stay alive by managing her diabetes and helped my mother live until she was 60 even though she suffered from many different health problems because was denied medical care as a child.

How many people do you know that would be dead now, or crippled without it?

Oh, wait, nevermind.

I forgot I wasn't talking to a critical thinker.

Altie health claims by snake oil salesman and proselytizers such as yourself are dangerous because they are touted as an alternative to science based medicine, not to be used in addition to and under medical supervision.

Many scientists and doctors are more than willing to look at alternative treatments, they just don't feel comfortable lying to patients about their benefits like Mercola, Trudeau and whatever other anti-science idiots you listen to do on a daily basis FOR PROFIT.

Or are you still under the delusion that alties only do this because they CARE about you?

[serryjw]

41. Afraid to read the link of Johanna Budwig?

You certainly believe what ever you like but there is a different between staying alive and living You created an atmosphere of dis-ease and you can change that and get yourself well. Every pharma drug has enormous dangers. Hundreds of thousands of people every year either die or have life threatening problems from western pharma.

I will never understand why people defend this crap when the alternative is available for next to no money. I suppose you don't believe in the benefits of meditation or visualization in healing yourself, either?

[beam me up scottie]

43. Oh, I read it.

I am in awe of your obviously superior critical thinking skills.

[FM Arouet666]

55. Woo Woo

Where are your facts? Yes, yes, every year hundreds and thousands die due to western medicine, and many thousands more survive because of western medicine. Alternative medicine, for the most part, is without any sound scientific basis, and can be just as dangerous.

'Next to no money' BS, the alternative med crowd is pushing cures and treatments for big dollars, a billion dollar a year business....

[Baconfoot]

58. I think you meant to say most alt med is without "any" basis.

O8)

[FM Arouet666]

62. Quite right, oopsie

[Bill McBlueState]

98. almost a tautology there!

Alternative medicine, for the most part, is without any sound scientific basis

Exactly. If it had a sound scientific basis, it would just be called "medicine."

[beam me up scottie]

42. Oh, yeah. She's definitely a Quacker with a capitol Q!

She used her methods to successfully heal terminal cancer patients, people with heart diseases, arthritis and other ailments after they had been given up as hopeless by the conventional medical practitioners. Her methods were so simple that any housewife could use her techniques with no special training and with good results. In fact, this is exactly what happened in many cases, People with serious diseases were curing themselves to the astonishment of the conventional medical practitioners. However, in spite of the simplicity of Dr. Budwig's discoveries, they also reveal a profound relationship to not only the harmonious working of the human body, but man's relationship with the Cosmos itself.

The Cosmos, eh?

To really understand her work, you will have to study her writings or the work of later nutritionists who are following in her footsteps. Please see the bibliography. However, I will just give a bare outline of her methods to give an idea of what it is all about.

In the course of her treatment of ill people, she studied blood samples to see if there is any correlation between the blood quality of ill people and healthy people. After studying thousands of blood samples, she discovered that the difference was that healthy people had a higher content of Omega3 oils in their blood than those who are ill. Omega3 is one of the essential fatty acids, or EFAs, which is necessary for the proper functioning of the body. She experimented on finding the best ways to get the Omega3 oils properly absorbed into a person's system and ultimately found that the richest source of Omega3 oil is flax seeds. However, only oil that has been protected from heat and oxidation, caused by oxygen and light, is sufficiently pure enough to be of benefit to human health. Oils not prepared this way quickly become rancid and are detrimental to human health. In fact, Dr. Budwig, with further research, came to the conclusion that the vast majority of chronic illnesses today are caused by the improper mass processing of foods and oils, plus poor nutrition as well as the world-wide use of dangerous pesticides which contaminate the food and destroy the electrons.

Based on these observations, Dr. Budwig began treating her patients by giving them a combination of high quality flax seed oil, which is rich in Omega3 oil, and quark, which is something similar to cottage cheese or yogurt in that it is rich in high quality protein. Quark is difficult to obtain in the U.S, but either yogurt, cottage cheese, skim milk, soy milk or rice milk is a good substitute. (For the proper ratio of oil to protein, please see experiment.) The reason for the mixture of the oil with a high quality protein is that by combining the protein with the oil, the oil becomes water soluble in the body and can be absorbed more readily. It can enter the smallest capillaries, dissolving any of the undesirable fats and cleaning out the veins and arteries. It also strengthens the heart, dissolves tumors and cures arthritis.

WOW! It does? Really? Tell me more!

It sounds like a lot, but it really works. Dr. Budwig worked with many patients who were terminally ill and some who had only hours to live. She gave them the combination of oil-protein plus organic foods, plus exercise, fresh air and used the healing powers of the sun to cure these "hopeless" cases who sometimes started to show improvement within days. Following is a quote from one of her books:

"I often take very sick cancer patients away from hospital where they are said to have only a few days left to live, or perhaps only a few hours. This is mostly accompanied by very good results. The very first thing which these patients and their families tell me is that, in the hospital, it was said that they could no longer urinate or produce bowel movements. They suffered from dry coughing without being able to bring up any mucous. Everything was blocked. It greatly encourages them when suddenly, in all these symptoms, the surface-active fats, with their wealth of electrons, start reactivating the vital functions and the patient immediately begins to feel better. It is very interesting to ask how this sudden change is possible. It has to do with the reaction patterns, with the character of electrons. I will return to these electrons later. In the last two years, I have come to be very fond of them. A friend of my work in Paris, wrote to me how wonderful it is that you have discovered the original birthplace of the electrons in seed oils to be the sun. That's how these connections are made!"

Dr. Budwig's cures are well documented and have stood the tests of opposition from the conventional medical establishment.

Sure they did.

Although there are many excellent doctors and nutritionists who are following in her footsteps, I am especially fond of Dr. Budwig's approach to things because she is not only a brilliant scientist and researcher, but also a high minded idealist who approaches the subject also from a philosophical and spiritual point of view. Unfortunately, only two of her books, that I know of, have been published in English. Please see the bibliography.

One of the significant aspects of Dr. Budwig's work is that she has discovered, (or rather rediscovered) the affinity of the human body with the sun. If the body has the right balance of oils and proteins, it has a magnetic field which attracts the photons in sunlight and thus is open to the healing powers of the sun.

That's what they're doing wrong! (smacks forehead loudly)
They weren't taking advantage of the body's magnetic field to attract photons!

I tried Dr. Budwig's methods for general health improvement, and I was amazed that within even less than the three days she predicted, I felt an incredible improvement in so many areas that it would take too much time to describe it here. I then recommended it to several members of our Ashram and those who took it seriously had similar experiences to mine. We all felt an increased feeling of general well-being, a feeling of lightness, more energy, better circulation and, when in the sun, I felt the healing power of the sun affecting my skin much differently than before. Also, every week or two, I become aware of feeling better in different ways. Old aches go away, my skin improves and I am able to do things better. One woman felt so good about it that she gave it to her children and said that right away she could see improvements in their skin tone. As she spoke, I saw that her own skin had more color and was radiant. And this was only about two days after she started taking the oil-protein combination.

How could those stupid scientists have missed that?
Why a simple housewife could figure it out!

Where do I send the check?

[serryjw]

45. You conveniently left out that she is a world class

biochemists with 7 Noble Prize nominations.Oh ..she is definitely a quack
Why is so difficult to accept that nutrition places a major role in all our diseases? Do you think if you eat well, exercised and didn't smoke and drank in moderation you might be a lot healthier?

I lost my aunt at 85 after a lifetime of debilitating migraines. She was definitely a junkie. You would not believe what drugs she lived on for 50 years. Her doctor of 40 years died and he sold his practice to a young asian doctor. He put her on Vitamins that she was never on her entire life. The migraines curtailed by 75% in frequency and severity

[beam me up scottie]

47. She's a liar and a morally bankrupt individual.

I don't care WHAT else she did in her lifetime.

She's telling people she can cure them of debilitating and fatal diseases when she CAN'T.

How fucking low do you have to be to prey on the sick and the elderly?


On edit, how low do you have to be to help someone prey on the sick and the elderly?

[FM Arouet666]

65. Just sad

Biochemist, so what, she has a degree. The seven Nobel prize nominations? Who nominated her, what distinguished scientific body endorses her work? I understand that she has even nominated herself. Great, a giant in the world of science, Madame Curie would be proud.

Yes, nutrition does play a major role in disease and recovery. However, you need to understand the difference between legitimate claims, those which are supported scientifically, and pseudoscience, those which are not supported. Sure, you can cite a number of incidences in which an alternative therapy was initially dismissed, later supported by science. But that does not mean every alternative medicine claim has validity, many will be shown to have no benefit.

Lovely anecdote about your aunt. Anecdotal 'evidence' is useless. Based on your recommendation, all migraine suffers should take vitamins? Or perhaps, they should only take them from young Asian doctors? Perhaps, just on tuesday, from asian doctors wearing glasses?

[Posteritatis]

105. Nominations? So what?

Bush has what, five Peace Prize nominations under his belt so far? Six? That must mean he's an astonishingly successful peacemaker and humanitarian of the highest order, right?

Or do nominations only start meaning something at seven?

[salvorhardin]

46. More importantly

With all these wonder cures available for next to nothing that people apparently have known about for centuries and centuries, then you've got to ask yourself... How come we're not having dinner tomorrow with our great-great-great grandparents? You'd think they'd be alive with all these miraculous medicines.

[beam me up scottie]

48. Jeesh.

I tried to hold back, I really did...but come on.

[MrMonk]

53. You beat me to it.

One of the most important and far reaching health discoveries of the Twentieth Century is that made by Dr. Johanna Budwig, a German biochemist who is a leading European authority on fats and nutrition.

Over an hour's search found no evidence of Budwig's work or reputation except for claims related to her flax oil and cottage cheese diet.

She has been nominated for the Nobel Prize seven times.

Which Nobel prize(s)? Some have more riqorous requirements than others. Generally, any academic can nominate someone for the Nobel prize in their field. Since the nominees themselves aren't supposed to know, the nominators aren't supposed to tell, and the Nobel Foundation is keeping mute for the next half-century, the claim is a meaningless credential.

She used her methods to successfully heal terminal cancer patients, people with heart diseases, arthritis and other ailments after they had been given up as hopeless by the conventional medical practitioners. Her methods were so simple that any housewife could use her techniques with no special training and with good results. In fact, this is exactly what happened in many cases, People with serious diseases were curing themselves to the astonishment of the conventional medical practitioners.

Some personal endorsements, but no links (or publication data) are presented for any articles or notes documenting these cures.

However, in spite of the simplicity of Dr. Budwig's discoveries, they also reveal a profound relationship to not only the harmonious working of the human body, but man's relationship with the Cosmos itself.

Dr. Budwig's discovery appears to have deep foundations. :eyes:

To really understand her work, you will have to study her writings or the work of later nutritionists who are following in her footsteps. Please see the bibliography. However, I will just give a bare outline of her methods to give an idea of what it is all about.

In the course of her treatment of ill people, she studied blood samples to see if there is any correlation between the blood quality of ill people and healthy people. After studying thousands of blood samples, she discovered that the difference was that healthy people had a higher content of Omega3 oils in their blood than those who are ill. Omega3 is one of the essential fatty acids, or EFAs, which is necessary for the proper functioning of the body. She experimented on finding the best ways to get the Omega3 oils properly absorbed into a person's system and ultimately found that the richest source of Omega3 oil is flax seeds. However, only oil that has been protected from heat and oxidation, caused by oxygen and light, is sufficiently pure enough to be of benefit to human health. Oils not prepared this way quickly become rancid and are detrimental to human health. In fact, Dr. Budwig, with further research, came to the conclusion that the vast majority of chronic illnesses today are caused by the improper mass processing of foods and oils, plus poor nutrition as well as the world-wide use of dangerous pesticides which contaminate the food and destroy the electrons.

A novel theory. Contrary to chemistry and physics, but novel.

Based on these observations, Dr. Budwig began treating her patients by giving them a combination of high quality flax seed oil, which is rich in Omega3 oil, and quark, which is something similar to cottage cheese or yogurt in that it is rich in high quality protein. Quark is difficult to obtain in the U.S, but either yogurt, cottage cheese, skim milk, soy milk or rice milk is a good substitute.

No miracle cures for the lactose intolerant? (Rice milk is not high in protein, especially compared to dairy products.)

(For the proper ratio of oil to protein, please see experiment.) The reason for the mixture of the oil with a high quality protein is that by combining the protein with the oil, the oil becomes water soluble in the body and can be absorbed more readily. It can enter the smallest capillaries, dissolving any of the undesirable fats and cleaning out the veins and arteries.

Chemistry, chemistry, chemistry! IF there's enough oil in the blood to dissolve fats, it will also disrupt the blood cells and capillary walls.

It also strengthens the heart, dissolves tumors and cures arthritis. It sounds like a lot, but it really works. Dr. Budwig worked with many patients who were terminally ill and some who had only hours to live. She gave them the combination of oil-protein plus organic foods, plus exercise, fresh air and used the healing powers of the sun to cure these "hopeless" cases who sometimes started to show improvement within days. Following is a quote from one of her books:

"I often take very sick cancer patients away from hospital where they are said to have only a few days left to live, or perhaps only a few hours. This is mostly accompanied by very good results. The very first thing which these patients and their families tell me is that, in the hospital, it was said that they could no longer urinate or produce bowel movements. They suffered from dry coughing without being able to bring up any mucous. Everything was blocked. It greatly encourages them when suddenly, in all these symptoms, the surface-active fats, with their wealth of electrons, start reactivating the vital functions and the patient immediately begins to feel better. It is very interesting to ask how this sudden change is possible. It has to do with the reaction patterns, with the character of electrons. I will return to these electrons later. In the last two years, I have come to be very fond of them. A friend of my work in Paris, wrote to me how wonderful it is that you have discovered the original birthplace of the electrons in seed oils to be the sun. That's how these connections are made!"

Mumbo-jumbo. There is no difference between electrons in seed oils and electrons in a rock.

Dr. Budwig's cures are well documented Where's the documentation? and have stood the tests of opposition from the conventional medical establishment. Again, where's the documentation?

Although there are many excellent doctors and nutritionists who are following in her footsteps, I am especially fond of Dr. Budwig's approach to things because she is not only a brilliant scientist and researcher, but also a high minded idealist who approaches the subject also from a philosophical and spiritual point of view. Unfortunately, only two of her books, that I know of, have been published in English. Please see the bibliography.

One of the significant aspects of Dr. Budwig's work is that she has discovered, (or rather rediscovered) the affinity of the human body with the sun. If the body has the right balance of oils and proteins, it has a magnetic field which attracts the photons in sunlight and thus is open to the healing powers of the sun. Mumbo-jumbo. (Electro)magnetic fields can divert charged particles, but photons are not charged. They are not attracted to such fields.


I tried Dr. Budwig's methods for general health improvement, and I was amazed that within even less than the three days she predicted, I felt an incredible improvement in so many areas that it would take too much time to describe it here. I then recommended it to several members of our Ashram and those who took it seriously had similar experiences to mine. We all felt an increased feeling of general well-being, a feeling of lightness, more energy, better circulation and, when in the sun, I felt the healing power of the sun affecting my skin much differently than before. Also, every week or two, I become aware of feeling better in different ways. Old aches go away, my skin improves and I am able to do things better. One woman felt so good about it that she gave it to her children and said that right away she could see improvements in their skin tone. As she spoke, I saw that her own skin had more color and was radiant. And this was only about two days after she started taking the oil-protein combination.

So you say.

[beam me up scottie]

54. I couldn't find any research either.

Just a lot of woo woo sites linking to each other and touting her miracle cures.

Never heard of the woman before tonight, now I'm sorry I did.

[FM Arouet666]

60. Destroy the electrons.....

Thanks for the dissection, I was too lazy to read on.... Destroy the electrons, Got to love the woo woo in this.
On the Nobel Prize, she apparently nominated herself a few times. What a gas........ :rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

64. I nominate FM Arouet666.

Do I need to know your real name or will that do?

[FM Arouet666]

66. I second the nomination.

And the Nobel goes too.......

Will Satan please come to the podium to accept the award.

I would like to thank you all, the academy, the nice little woo-woos whose souls will be mine, VERY SOON.....

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

67. When do I get paid?

I mean, congratulations!

:applause:

[FM Arouet666]

68. Attracting photons from the sun??????

If the body has the right balance of oils and proteins, it has a magnetic field which attracts the photons in sunlight and thus is open to the healing powers of the sun.

What a crock. Why don't these oily protein people have a higher rate of skin cancer? Guess they attracted only the good photons, those bad old cancer causing rays are meant for the non believers.

:woohoo: :rofl: :woohoo: :rofl: :woohoo: :rofl:

[Bill McBlueState]

99. dammit, will they stop with the magnets?

it has a magnetic field which attracts the photons in sunlight and thus is open to the healing powers of the sun.

If magnetic fields "attract photons," I'm going to have to completely rethink my dissertation. Actually, I could disprove huge chunks of modern star formation theory, not to mention f'ing Maxwell's equations, with that little tidbit.

Famousness, here I come!

[beam me up scottie]

111. Oh, Hell. Just flush your ethics down the crapper and sell this stuff.

It's quicker, much less work and guaranteed to make you rich.
And you'll never run out of sheep, I mean patients.

[FM Arouet666]

57. If it quacks like a duck......

http://www.corante.com/pipeline/archives/snake_oil/

Budwig a seven time nobel nominee. What a laugh, she even nominated herself. Great, I will nominate myself too. What an advance for medical science. Lots of claims, damn little evidence. Quack.........

Healing terminal cancer patients with diet, you believe this nonsense? Again, no studies, no documentation, just empty claims. Tell ya what, if you get diagnosed with mid stage colon cancer, are you going to opt for surgery and chemo or the flack seed oil?

How about the flu, try some ocillo.... http://www.ritecare.com/homeopathic/guide_oscillococcinum.asp What a crock, no studies, no evidence, in fact, the "ocillococcinum" has never been seen, except in the mind of the quack who first proposed this nonsense cure.

I would happily dismiss your nonsense as eccentricity, fear of the modern world, etc However, I wonder how many people suffer because they shunned traditional medicine for alternative therapies, realizing too late that the cures promised are not to be realized.

[beam me up scottie]

63. Ah, yes.

Water with a memory.

What other product is known to have absolutely no medicinal properties and still have people swearing it works?

Even when shown the formula proving that not a single molecule of the original substance survived the dilution, people still angrily defend it.

Faith based medicine.

Perfect.

[Horse with no Name]

23. I really liked the witch doctor on Gilligan's Island

He seemed to really know his stuff.;)

[knitter4democracy]

85. Always have an advocate, that's true.

I say that every family needs a nurse or a doctor (or both), if just to explain stuff and know when to scream for a better doctor or treatment. My hubby explains stuff to his mom all the time, even though he's not her internist, especially now that she's been through breast cancer and a horrible autoimmune disease that's not yet under control.

As for hospitals, they're not as bad as you're imagining. Most have figured out ways to fix the wrong drug to the wrong person thing, and most have patient advocates available. If they don't, you need a good friend who can fight for you or a family member not afraid to make noise. In any medical system, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[ISUGRADIA]

18. Quacky Crap

[KittyWampus]

81. Ignorance is bliss. Are you a "skeptic"? Read Death By Prescription

or go to the JAMA's archives.

Death by Prescription: The Shocking Truth Behind an Overmedicated Nation
by Ray D. Strand

* The leading drug problem in the U.S. today is not the use of illegal drugs-it is the use of legal drugs.
* The fourth leading cause of death in the U.S. is properly prescribed and administered medication. By adding improperly prescribed medication to that equation, it becomes the third leading cause of death.
* There are over 2 million hospital admissions and 180,000 deaths each and every year in the U.S. due solely to adverse drug reactions
* When the FDA approves a medication for use by the general public, less than half of the serious drug reactions are known. You-the patient-become the final clinical trial.

If you aren't aware of these facts, and you don't have the tools and information to counter them, you are at risk.

Experienced family doctor Ray Strand writes his patients prescriptions every week, but he also believes that prescribing drugs should be a last resort in most medical cases-not a first choice. In Death by Prescription he provides simple guidelines to help readers protect themselves and their families from suffering adverse reactions to prescription medication.

[knitter4democracy]

86. He's right.

Americans always want a pill to make it all better. Much of the time, though, it doesn't. Doctors are pressured to give the prescription, so they often do, hoping it will help somehow. It doesn't always.

My hubby's an internist, and I live with chronic pain from endometriosis. We've tried a few of the medications out there, and I've had bad reactions to all of them except ibuprofen. Hubby feels awful that he can't think of anything other than surgery anymore, and we're going to see a specialist this week about that.

In other words, it's not that the doctors always want to push the pills--it's that they really want to help and hope the pill works. That, and patients often don't want to hear that they don't need a pill. My hubby's had a ton of heart disease patients, and not one wanted to hear about diet and exercise and lifestyle changes. They all wanted the expensive pill. Trust me, it really bugs him.

[beam me up scottie]

21. Here's an example of the fuzzy math Mercola uses:

We could have an even higher death rate by using Dr. Lucien Leape?s 1997 medical and drug error rate of 3 million. 14 Multiplied by the fatality rate of 14% (that Leape used in 1994 16 we arrive at an annual death rate of 420,000 for drug errors and medical errors combined. If we put this number in place of Lazorou?s 106,000 drug errors and the Institute of Medicine?s (IOM) 98,000 medical errors, we could add another 216,000 deaths making a total of 999,936 deaths annually.

Quite the research scientist, isn't he?

[PBass]

24. Mercola is kooky, agreed...

However there are plenty of incompetent doctors out there, too! Just because somebody went to medical school, it doesn't mean they are ethical or competent.

Just like any job, you have a good amount of folks who are trying hard, people who care, the ones who are doing a good job... then on the other hand you have the slackers, the nincompoops, the people who only care about the money, etc.

[beam me up scottie]

30. Who said that there weren't?

I have personally been the patient of more than one incompetent doctor.

But I knew they were incompetent because I did my own research, not because I listened to some skanky quack who's trying to sell me snake oil.


The Mercolas and Trudeaus of the world are far more dangerous than the incompetent doctors.

How many people have they injured or killed by telling them to NOT seek professional medical advice because doctors can't be trusted?

[serryjw]

49. Simple question?

IF you were terminally ill with cancer would you try anything or go home to die?

[beam me up scottie]

50. It's not about what I would do.

It's about the ethics of selling snake oil to desperate people.

I know I wouldn't do that.

[KittyWampus]

82. Death By Prescription- Just to show how un-skeptical you really are

and how wrong that ends up making you.

(I'll also look for the link to JAMA's own citation of the evidence).

Death by Prescription: The Shocking Truth Behind an Overmedicated Nation
by Ray D. Strand

* The leading drug problem in the U.S. today is not the use of illegal drugs-it is the use of legal drugs.
* The fourth leading cause of death in the U.S. is properly prescribed and administered medication. By adding improperly prescribed medication to that equation, it becomes the third leading cause of death.
* There are over 2 million hospital admissions and 180,000 deaths each and every year in the U.S. due solely to adverse drug reactions
* When the FDA approves a medication for use by the general public, less than half of the serious drug reactions are known. You-the patient-become the final clinical trial.

If you aren't aware of these facts, and you don't have the tools and information to counter them, you are at risk.

Experienced family doctor Ray Strand writes his patients prescriptions every week, but he also believes that prescribing drugs should be a last resort in most medical cases-not a first choice. In Death by Prescription he provides simple guidelines to help readers protect themselves and their families from suffering adverse reactions to prescription medication.

[beam me up scottie]

109. Blah blah blah...nobody pays any attention to you, haven't you noticed?

What the fuck does your insipid book review have to do with ANYTHING I posted, you ID believing twit?

Leave science to the scientists, sweetie, your views on ID disqualify you from the valid opinions group in my circle.

[NMDemDist2]

22. I saw a gal on GayUSA who just did a report that 200,000 die every

year from hospital infections of the 2 million that get them from filthy hospitals

Disgusting.....

http://www.hospitalinfection.org/

[wookie294]

27. I heard it's more like 98,000 people die from medical errors

Experts estimate that as many as 98,000 people die in any given year from medical errors that occur in hospitals. That's more than die from motor vehicle accidents, breast cancer, or AIDS--three causes that receive far more public attention. Indeed, more people die annually from medication errors than from workplace injuries. Add the financial cost to the human tragedy, and medical error easily rises to the top ranks of urgent, widespread public problems.

http://www.nap.edu/catalog/9728.html

[Quixote1818]

31. That sounds more reasonable

nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

28. I almost died from a mistake last year. The OR had a staph infection.

I was not given anti biotics prior to surgery...I ended up with a staph and a yeast (:puke:) infection in my lungs that collapsed them. If not for the efforts of my husband, I wouldn't be here. You can't leave it up to them. You must take wellness into your own hands. I will never again leave a loved one in the hospital. :hi:

[MrMonk]

32. I'm sorry that you became infected,

but, if you had been given antibiotics and *not* become infected, you might have been considered a victim of unnecessary treatment, according to the standards set by the author linked by the OP and by that author's sources.

[ScreamingMeemie]

34. You know from where I sit...It doesn't fucking matter. The truth

is the truth. Hospitals kill many, MANY people...by accident...every year.

[FM Arouet666]

61. Just curious, what kind of surgery did you have?

[ScreamingMeemie]

71. I had an open Nissen Fundoplication on January 6, of last year.

On January 7th, I told my husband that I could not breathe...he told the nurse, they gave me nasal spray. On January 8th, a resident passing in the hall heard my cough, entered the room and noticed I was cyanotic. I was moved to the 4th floor (telemetry..what a joke). The evening of the 8th, I was transferred to the I.C.U. and placed on a vent. I was in the I.C.U. for almost three days over a surgery that should have had a post op hospital stay of two.

This was not my first experience with this procedure. In 2001 I had a laparascopic Nissen. Which worked quite well for two years. If you still don't believe me, you can search the archives. The surgery of last year, and especially its aftermath, is well documented by PassingFair, a good friend IRL. She'll vouch that this is a sick, sad actual event.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=2396962

[Beausoir]

78. Wow. That is a huge procedure.

My best friend went through one 4 years ago. Fortunately, he had no complications and is now feeling much better.

[ScreamingMeemie]

92. It has basically been awful. We were really hopeful after the lap...

and then it came back. Because of the staph related pneumonia after the second, my doctor believes there is some issue of scarring and adhesions. And the world spins round.

I just can't stand that the poster had nothing other to say then to question the procedure I had done.

[NMDemDist2]

33. see my response above and check this out

www.hospitalinfection.org

so glad you made it, 200,000 people a year die!

[beam me up scottie]

35. And how many people die from lack of medical care?

Hmmm?

[NMDemDist2]

51. these hospital infections could be reduced by 95% if the hospitals

followed sanitary practices

Infection accounts for more deaths than lack of health insurance. The federal Institutes of Medicine recently estimated that as many as 18,000 people may die prematurely because they don't have health insurance. <12> That's tragic. But consider this even more tragic fact. Five times that many people die each year from hospital infections, and most of them are insured. Having insurance is no guarantee that you and your family will be safe in a hospital. The only way to ensure that is to clean up this deadly problem.

[beam me up scottie]

52. I've seen it before.

And I agree that it's appalling and unnecessary.

But I take issue with people who use numbers like this to malign science based medicine.

Pseudoscience and ignorance are far more dangerous.

edit:
I meant how many people TOTAL die from lack of medical care, not just an estimate of how many might die here.

Like comparing adverse reactions to vaccinations to the deaths caused by not vaccinating.

[knitter4democracy]

90. Always have an advocate.

It's the best thing you can do. Always have someone who doesn't mind making some noise or bothering people to make sure you're okay and getting the treatment you need.

When my mom was in the ER this fall, I flat-out told the nurse that I was a b****y doctor's wife, and I bugged and bugged them all just to get the tests and all that we needed and ultimately to get her the bed she needed for admission. I didn't mind what they thought of me that Sunday morning--my mom needed it.

[Xenotime]

36. * doesn't do anything about it...

if you are not 1.) white 2.) in iraq 3.) giving him money (halibuton)

[Clara T]

37. I think the stat is actually 80,000 or so

Still alot.

24,000 die each day worldwide from hunger related disease.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Ah, perspective!

There's no money to be made trying to help the poor folks, you know.

Meanwhile, our tax dollars are paying for another quack cure, teaching abstinence to people in third world countries!

Because condoms promote promiscuity.

How about we let the scientists and doctors determine health care policy, not quacks, pseudo-scientists and religious fundamentalists.

[Neil Lisst]

56. over 100,000 die a year in hospitals from infections they got there

But the medical-pharma-insurance world doesn't want that out.

They will cerainly tell you about that list of illegal drugs that kill a tiny percentage of that number, however.

[Baconfoot]

59. Would this number count an infection due to life-saving organ tranplant?

I know the answer.
Do you?

[FM Arouet666]

69. Yes

That is the problem with statistics. The number accounts for all infections. If you are 100 years old, bad heart, bad lungs, come into the hospital for a broken leg, get a wound infection or pneumonia and die, it counts as a death from infection acquired in the hospital. Never mind that you were next to death on the way in from advanced age and concomitant medical problems, modern medicine killed you.

[AZCat]

70. 100% of all hospital patients die.

For some the effects are delayed just a bit.


For that matter, I have yet to meet anyone who has survived contact with dihydrogen monoxide, another vicious killer.

[knitter4democracy]

88. Like that scene from Scrubs my hubby quotes all the time.

All doctors fight death but know it's a losing battle. All patients will die, and some will die from the meds but have lived a better life for awhile on those meds. It's part of the job.

[beam me up scottie]

112. Hey, don't mess around with dihydrogen monoxide.

I heard one of the quacks went to prison for killing a patient with that.

It's still widely available on the black market, but you never know where it comes from.

[Neil Lisst]

76. Excuse me if I don't take your word for it.

100,000 preventable deaths due to unclean conditions in hospitals.

[hellbound-liberal]

72. Does the word "Vioxx" mean anything to you people?

It doesn't take much of a "critical mind" to see that the "for-profit" pharmaceutical industry runs the American health care system and that their priority is to show a profit to their shareholders. Their influence is felt in all areas of health care from the people in Congress who do their bidding to the pill-pushing doctors who are recruited in med school. I agree that the wonders of modern medicine have done a lot to improve the lives of many but I also believe that we all need to take better care of ourselves and stop relying on so-called experts,including the AMA and the FDA to do our thinking for us.

[trotsky]

77. The profit motive also guides the "alternative medicine" industry.

"So-called experts"? I dunno, I'm kind of inclined to trust the opinion of someone who studied medicine for 7+ years. Just as I'm more likely to take my car to a mechanic when the transmission fails than fix it myself. Yes, I will do research, and make sure I can trust a doctor, because there are quacks and frauds in every field. But let's not buy into the traditional right-wing anti-intellectual bias, ok?

[area51]

73. such a large # as this...

... would surely have to be counting all the people who die due to lack of money for medical treatment, since we're too barbaric a nation to have universal healthcare.

[BiggJawn]

74. 100% of people eventually die, anyway.

Might be soon, might be YEARS, but there's no use in trying to deny it, some day, you know you're gonna buy it.

In reading some of the responses to this thread, I'm left with a sense of amazement over the idea that "PHARMA"=bad, Woo-Woo-ism=good because "Pharma" is in it for the bucks.

So, just exactly where DO you get these "alternative" treatments for free? Last time I was at the health food store, they were getting a pretty good price for Chromium Picolinate.

Yes, I tried that alternative crap that was supposed to be SO good for me. Chrome and Cinnamon, and whatever else the flavour of the month to treat diabetes was supposed to be...

It didn't work.

Granted, a LOT of these "Alternative Treatment Plans" include a regimen of exercise and dietic changes, but you know what? you'd get the same effect of the expensive "supplement" and food and exercise as you would from eating right, exercising and and taking 2 Sweet-Tarts every day.

I used to have some respect for Andy Weil, UNTIL he came out with his own line of rather pricey "Weil Approved" snake oil.
Now I see where he's coming from.

So breath your floral vapours, drink your silver water and sleep under a $2500 aluminum rod pyramid, you ain't gonna live forever anyway.

[sweetheart]

75. people die each year

Its a conundrum that people who die are usually on medication, medication
that has given us much longer lifespans.

And as all medications, even perscription ones, are poisons if overdosed,
and who doses medications most accurately when they are near death?

There is a strong case for taking away the monopoly of doctors to perscribe
drugs, and that this right be retained by the citizen. Then we will know
that people were responsible for their own states of affairs and we needn't
get in a social concern for early death.

[knitter4democracy]

87. Ummm

How would we know we're dosing it right? My hubby has shown me the complex algorithms and all that he uses to figure dosage and to figure out which drug to prescribe in the first place. He spent three years in internal medicine residency figuring that out. There are tons and tons of drugs available, and many interact with others--and it's hard to know which to take, how much, and how to balance it all. If even doctors screw it up (while dealing with it thousands of times a year), how are we supposed to manage?

[sweetheart]

95. Who is responsible

I am more careful about any drugs i take than any doctor. I know
my lifetime medical history, the doctor does not. I know the sorts
of things that work with my body, the doctor does not.

I certainly would take a doctor's advise in to consideration when
adjusting my perscriptions, a doctor whom i trusted, but i am the
ultimate person responsible for my body, and no matter how well trained,
no doctor is as careful with my life as i am.

[knitter4democracy]

97. I agree that you're ultimately the one who lives with it.

I can't take most of the drugs available for my health condition, and that's been after trial and error (mostly error, it feels like). I'm quite the B****y patient when I need to be.

The doctor should know your lifetime medical history and what works with your body and what doesn't, though. That's part of the doctor-patient relationship. If they don't know, then the advice they give is suspect (which they find as frustrating as you do). If a doctor doesn't know that you can't tolerate something and ends up prescribing it, it's considered a medical error but shouldn't be her fault if it wasn't in the chart or told to her somehow. Doctors only know what they're told, what's in the chart, or what tests and trial and error tell them.

Many doctors are as careful with your life as you are, though. They're scared of lawsuits and scared to lose you under their care. They think through everything over and over to make sure it's right, and proceed carefully. Yes, there are many out there who aren't careful, and they're playing with fire, frankly.

All I know, though, is that my hubby was up until three in the morning last night working through the loss of a patient. She died suddenly, and he got a suprise call from the ME's office. He'd just seen her last Friday and was worried about her, having tried everything he could think of to help her and had been wracking his brain all weekend trying to think of how to help her pain only to get the phone call Monday afternoon that she'd died Sunday night. He's still upset and worried about her husband and trying to understand what happened. Not all doctors are callously playing with patients' lives.

[KittyWampus]

80. JAMA Itself Admits Taking Meds Is A Leading Cause Of Death

and that's taking medications AS PRESCRIBED. It's the leading cause of death just under heart attack and stroke.

Further, this doesn't include meds that cause permanent damage.

Taking medication is only marginally better then the placebo effect and yet it leads to a very significant number of deaths.

[SidDithers]

83. Yup...

I hear that placebo insulin works wonders...:sarcasm:

Sid

Edit: added smilie for sarcasm impaired.

[KittyWampus]

84. Do you even what JAMA is? What does taking insulin have to do with ADR

what's the matter are facts disturbing to you?

Just so you know, ADR means Adverse Drug reactions. And they ARE the fourth leading cause of death.

And here's a link to the Journal of American Medical Association article

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/279/15/1200

[SidDithers]

91. It was your statement, not the AMA's...

"Taking medication is only marginally better then the placebo effect..."

or are you suggesting that the AMA sees little difference between real meds and placebos.

Yes, the placebo effect is real. No, it can't replace real meds for millions of people. Real meds are not "only marginally better than the placebo effect", they are often significantly better. I suspect that perhaps it is you who are disturbed by the fact that evidence-based meds actually work much of the time.

Sid

[MrMonk]

103. According to the abstract that you've linked

ADR are between the 4th and 6th leading cause of deaths in a hospital setting. That number includes ADR that resulted in hospital admission. I'd be curious to see how many of those ADR result from self-medication.
I'd also be curious as to how many ADR are due to conventional medications, rather than those indicated by rare or extreme conditions.

[beam me up scottie]

110. Dang it, Sid!

I told you not to play with the fundie children!

This always ends badly...

[MrMonk]

102. Link it.

or cite the issue and page of JAMA.

[Clara T]

93. kick for info

[sendero]

96. These numbers sound high..

... but the basic premise is sound. Too many doctors are prescribing too many drugs and interactions and intolerances are not easy to manage.

Personally, when I am prescribed a drug, I go home and research it first. If I like what I find, I fill the prescription and take it. If not, I don't.

There are way too many drugs out there that are only marginally, if at all, an advantage over the condition they are supposed to be treating.

And there are lots of drugs that everyone knows are actually quite dangerous to a significant portion of the populations (the statin drugs for cholesterol control come to mind) but lots of doctors and all pharma companies want to act like the problems are exceedingly rare. They are not.

on edit: There was a time when the FDA did a reasonable job of insuring that only safe and effective drugs got to market. The FDA has become a political organization, worried more about their own empire and power than fulfilling their mandate.

[Bill McBlueState]

100. hi everybody!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

104. On Its Face It Seems Like A Crock To Me

First, there is nothing of substance, fact or data to back up any claim in the article.

Secondly, which number is it?? 783,936 a year? 100,000 a year? (490,000 since 2001, referenced in same article), 106,000 a year or 250,000 a year? (last link to additional story on bottom of page)

I don't know, right now I take this as spin and propaganda, but I will definitely research this more to see if it is true and if not, what the true figures are.

On edit: I think medicines are way too prevalent in our country and most definitely dangerous. It is not that concept I am refuting, and this article intrigued me on what the figures would be. I do however, feel this article is not accurate in its portrayal and would rather find a more solid source of info.

[conflictgirl]

106. Mercola's a quack, but that doesn't make his basic point invalid here

I strongly suspect he's overstating the numbers, here. Even the AMA admits that the rate of medical mistakes is pretty high. (No, I don't have the cite off-hand, but I can look for it.) But to demonize all alternative medicine based on the snake-oil peddlers and the Mercola types is just as bad as those who claim that all conventional meds are dangerous because some people die from them. Also keep in mind that a lot of the conventional Western doctors have their own dubious financial interests influencing their practice, as well. Surely you don't think that the doctor prescribing Lunesta or whatever the latest sleep drug is (for example) is doing so solely because they've done the research and believe it's the best drug out there? And that the pharma rep taking them out to lunch and supplying them with free Lunesta samples has nothing to do with their prescribing decisions?

I've had some health conditions that I've managed entirely with alternative treatments (which I researched, and knew couldn't be attributed to a placebo effect). There are other health conditions where I wouldn't dream of using alternative meds - a serious infection is one. But I do think it's offensive when people flatly denigrate all alternative medicine in favor of the Western model. Many Western medications have their origins in things found in nature, after all. I totally believe that whom/whatever created this universe did put some things in it that can help heal us.

[pinto]

113. Locking

Plenty of info here and links for anyone interested to follow up, but on mod review we are locking since the site originally quoted is a sole source, unreviewed opinion relating to health care claims. And it seems to be a commercially oriented project. Vague, I know, but that's the take. Thanks for your understanding.