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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 03:37 PM
Original message
An Army of Children
To those of us who aren’t fast writers, it’s been a tough couple of weeks. First there was the whole issue with the calls from various prominent pundits for the arrest, and in at least one case, the execution of those journalists at the NYT who published details about an anti-terrorist program that was already quite well known. Then the right-wing blogosphere followed suit by declaring war on the NY Times travel section, publishing the addresses of a publisher and a photographer and inviting readers to… well, do something with the information. It wasn’t clear what but no doubt there were plenty of godfearin’ patriots who had some pretty interesting ideas on that score once they’d heard about what terrorist loving traitors these people were. Then there was the case of Nedd Kareiva’s Anti ACLU website posting the address and phone number of a Jewish family who had already been bullied ut of Indian River Delaware for daring to complain about Christian harassment of nonChristian students at a local school. (And boy did the good citizens of Indian River prove those carping heathens wrong!) And while that sordid matter was unfolding, someone pointed out Michelle Malkin’s post-mortem smearing of Denice Denton, the UC Santa Cruz Chancellor who’d recently committed suicide.

In short, there has been what can only be described as a sort of glorious blossoming of jaw-dropping right-wing venom. It’s kind of like watching one of those acts in a circus where a little bitty car drives into view and suddenly ejects an endless procession of clowns who cavort about the ring competing for the audience’s attention, turning cartwheels and somersaults, blowing raspberries at the onlookers and waving plastic hammers. You just don’t know where to look.

I’m glad to report that in at a couple of cases at least, partial sanity prevailed. One blog that had offered the happy suggestion that its readers “hunt down” not only the reporters involved in the NYT travel story, but the reporter’s children, vanished completely in the face of widespread revulsion. Nedd Kareiva’s project of posting the addresses and phone numbers of anyone even suspected of being an ACLU plaintiff collapsed in a flurry of impotent threats and, for the moment at least, has disappeared into a single unseemly whine about the very good advice Nedd’s lawyer gave him about it.

Other, better writers have already done a good job of characterizing these nasties for what they are. Both David Neiwert and Glenn Greenwald have pointed out the profoundly serious underpinnings of these incidents, the manner in which they reflect, not just the rants of a fringe element, but what Neiwert calls an “eliminationist” mindset that has been increasingly mainstreamed and poses a genuine threat to political freedom in this country. I’m not going to rehash those arguments here, though I would like to point out to those inevitable hopefuls who talk about the far right “panicking” and “imploding” and at last going “too far” that these acts have been part of an escalating trend over the past two decades and therefore likely indicate not “panic and desperation” but a sense of impunity.

All these things popping up so close together have highlighted a certain characteristic shared by the likes of Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, and various less famous right-wing bloggers. The word that comes to mind is “callow.” I’m reminded of children, and not the beauty, hopefulness and openness of children. Rather, these cases bring to mind the callousness of extreme youth, the eagerness of kids to attack as a group, and their inability to grasp context, assess consequences, or take responsibility for those consequences.

When we speak of the “innocence” of a child, it often refers to the slack we’re willing to cut the very young because they have not yet had the chance to learn lessons most of us have grasped by the time we hit our thirties. A group of fourteen-year-olds who think it’s clever to write threatening and abusive letters, mock another person’s appearance or disabilities, and sneer at that individual’s personal tragedies might inspire disgust among the older and wiser, but there’s also the knowledge that, ten, twenty years down the road, most of them are going to be adults who remember those acts with shame. A group of middle-aged people who think it’s clever to write threatening and abusive letters, mock another person’s appearance and disabilities, and sneer at that individual’s personal tragedies, is another matter entirely.

That’s what makes the 40-something Ann Coulter so creepy, and why my own reaction to some of the faceless bloggers who’ve been posting names has come dangerously close to the empathy of a big sister who sees a sibling burst into wails after the cat he’s been torturing leaves a red line of scratches on his chubby little cheek. As an incurable bleeding heart, I’m afraid that while my first response to the collapse of Nedd Kareiva’s “Get-the-ACLU-plaintiff” was relief, my second was the urge to pat him on the arm and murmur “There, there. We’ve just learned an important lesson now, haven’t we?” After all, when someone posts a message online that refers to “all the Looney Left Liberals from the likes of The Daily Kookoos (KOS with 3 extra O's), Jesus (Armchair) General, (Hair) Salon and others” the image of the writer that’s conjured up is that of a downy adolescent, still awash in puppy fat, sipping a Red Bull in between sobs and pounding out his rage and frustration late at night from his Dad’s old computer down in the basement.

I know, I know. Many of the people I’m dismissing as teenagers are probably well past the age when they deserve that level of forbearance. It’s gut reaction I’m describing here. In the long run, I think what we’re seeing is cause for more serious action than wiping away the tears of a brat. For far too long, these incidents have been shrugged off with the comments, “They’re crazy,” or “They’re kids.”

Even if the overwhelming majority of the online right wingers engaging in this kind of garbage range in age from thirteen to their early twenties, the danger they pose should not be underestimated. Proddy kids may be endemic on the internet and may cut across ideological lines – I’ve read some pretty callow and stupid postings on Democratic Underground too – but when there are no adults willing to restrain them or worse, when unprincipled and influential adults are willing to use them as a means to an end, they can do genuine damage. Whether an address or phone number was posted online with invitations to pile on by a normal fifteen-year-old or a 50-something case of arrested development does not make much difference to the private citizen now fielding death threats and worrying about whether his or her kids can walk to school safely.

And the fact that Michelle Malkin is an over-indulged cutie whose youthful good looks have insulated her from the hard knocks her venom would inspire if her waist were fatter and her nose bigger, does not make the popularity of her bloody-mindedness any less worrisome. One very cherished American myth is that average, God-fearing Americans who engage in violent rhetoric will, as a group, draw back in horror if the rhetoric is acted upon. As I’ve observed elsewhere, both American history (Kent State, the Black Civil Rights movement, the Red Scare) and the willingness of many of these people to dismiss and even celebrate actual tragedies that befall liberals strongly indicates otherwise. We’ve reached the point where equating disagreement with treason is part of mainstream political rhetoric. It’s no great step to move from that to treating political opponents as literal traitors.

The worst possible reaction, and one that worries me more than any other, would be for the left to respond in kind. It’s not as endemic as it is on the right, but the ugly fact is that are young and/or callow liberals who are positively chomping at the bit, eager to leap into the fray and post the addresses and phone numbers of people they dislike. I’m not going to pad my assessment of liberals who do this with phrases like “well meaning” or “understandable” because I don’t use those terms to describe Freeping or other examples of online thuggery. It’s stupid. It’s irresponsible. It’s contemptible. And any liberal or leftist who advocates it is no friend to the cause.

Nor will it do any good to ignore it, as if Malkin, Coulter, etc were primarily about annoying us liberals. Don’t flatter yourself, guys. They aren’t. They are about firing up a grassroots base of people who can be counted on to respond with Pavlovian fervor to the singling out of anyone deemed an “enemy.” We can deal with them now, or we can deal with them later -- after they’ve gained even more influence and respectability.

The way to deal with them is to expose them. Don’t politely ignore their more outrageous comments. Bring them up. Force their apologists to defend them. Demand that the implications of their statements be examined in the cold light of day. Make it an issue, because it is an issue, and a damned important one. Be angry and be assertive, but don’t resort to insult or name-calling. A slanging match is the only fight they can really hope to win, and they’ll do everything they can to entice you into one.

Remember, these people don’t avoid reason because reason is an inferior weapon. They avoid it because reason is their enemy.
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LouisianaLiberal Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for another thoughtful post.
Recommended.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. HAH! and I thought it was so we wouldn't notice
The Supremes said that this administration has committed war crimes.

Rec'd

-Hoot
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Nazi Brown-Shirts in our country........
are alive and well and multiplying at an alarming rate. Civility has gone out the door and anyone deemed "different" is in B-I-G trouble with these fierce "patriots". :puke: The people ARE NOT patriots, they're bigoted, nationalistic cowards that have have forgotten where THEY came from and now want to close the door to anyone else.

Coulter is getting her comeuppance now with her plagiarism "problems" and Malkin is...well, Malkin is just an asshat. She should know better than anyone the price of printing people's private information for all to see. Has she learned? Apparently not. With a neanderthal cranium as thick as hers it will take multiple jolts to the head to smarten her up.

And they always say that Democrats are "so angry". :eyes: If we spouted half the vitriol they do we'd still be far behind their record levels of hate and venom.

You're absolutely correct. These assclowns must be slapped down instantly when they start their vicious screeds. It's up to every one of us to hold them accountable for their words on a local as well as national level. Let's get to it!
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Actually, I'm surprised at the gut reaction you have...
It never hit me that ignoring these individuals would make them go away. Maybe its my own youth experiences, but children can be extraordinarily vicious to one another. Should that disposition to ferally attack perceived enemies survive to adulthood, a dangerous situation exists indeed. Immediately sensing this in Coulter, Malkin, O'Reilly, and many of the bloggers you speak of, contraindicates their fading into the background. I've always been puzzled by people who say "don't respond", "ignore them", because a child proceeding from a perceived point of strength and aggression with the backing of like-minded children in number (a bully and his/her clique) are not typically dissuaded by being ignored or the subject of deference... in fact, it often encourages further aggression. Bullies back down only when confronted by potential victims who choose to fight back (and even then, its usually the particularly callow bully that backs down).

I am glad to see that most liberals are coming around to this realization and are choosing to engage rather than defer. I am particularly happy to see that some with access to the mass media have chosen to do precisely this, confronting them and calling them on their vituperous blather.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. i agree
it should be clear that making nice and trying to be civil is seen as weakness. just like a sort of prison mentality, where weakness MUST be exploited for the sake of exercising control and the animal rewards of an aggression jag.

elbows to the teeth always and do not pause even to look back.

i also never miss a chance to say the name of the traitors - Republicans.
this is necessary.
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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. I didn't say "make nice."
I said be angry and aggressive but not stupid and irrational.

Do you understand the difference?
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. k&r. . . . . n/t
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. The last line covers everything
Reason is their enemy. This nation was born on the principles of The Enlightenment. The Age of Reason rooted in logical deduction and thought brought us to where we are, and the wingers are trying their best to snuff the Enlightenment and return to the Dark Ages.
To which of the two major political parties id the Klan most closely aligned? Ask any repube that question and they'll start babbling about Robert Byrd, failing to say Byrd quit the Klan over 50 years ago. All the Southern Democrats became Republicans except for Byrd, Hollings and Zell Miller, and we know Zig Zag Zell belongs in a straight jacket.
Republican policy is to divide the populace, turning one group against the other and stealing everything in sight while the peasants are feuding.
There are laws on the books against treasury looting and war profiteering and someday (the sooner the better) the bill for all their transgression against this nation will come due.
If they try to get physical with their perceived enemies it may be time to foreclose on their health. Usually a mean snarl is enough to make them turn tail and run.
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CAcyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
29. I thought so, too
That last line should be the first line. It's a brilliant statement.
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. This reflects why the Bushbots disturb me so much
I was a fairly loathsome "Tory Boy" when I was a teenager in England, but the thing is, I grew out of it. To see fortysomething pundits use the same rhetoric that I did when I was 15 is, as you say, creepy. That's why the Daily Show's "Great Moments in Punditry" makes me laugh so hard.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. Great post, K & R n/t
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mzarathustra Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. callow?
I'm not sure "Callow" is the word you were looking for...

callow- Not young; advanced far in years or life; having lived till toward the end of the ordinary term of living; as, an old man; an old age; an old horse; an old tree.

I would think 'sophomoric' would be a better term.

Interesting commentary... the first paragraph is a grabber, but I get bogged down in the middle.

My take on the question of 'do we condemn or empathize?' is, "both."

But getting caught up in such a question is the standard liberal "bleeding heart" syndrome that has been partly responsible of late for shredding liberal activism into ineffectuality. When someone's ripping off your purse, you don't sit there and ponder their childhood woes that led to such antisocial behavior. You do something to stop them.

Wealthy conservatives are ripping the rest of us off, even many who vote for them. Plain and simple.

It's hardly compassionate to mince words about the Emperor's nudity because you're afraid to hurt his feelings. Just get on with it. "Dude, you're nude!"

When it comes to intelligent revelations of truth, it's time to stop pulling punches.

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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Where in the world did you find that definition of "callow?"
callow: lacking adult sophistication: IMMATURE.
Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.

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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. welcome to DU mzarathustra!
:hi:
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. A humble request:
"Both David Neiwert and Glenn Greenwald have pointed out the profoundly serious underpinnings of these incidents" -- anybody have links to these pieces?
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. David Neiwert is one of the best commentators today
http://www.dneiwert.blogspot.com

Possibly his essay on eliminationism?

....

When we hear the drumbeat of eliminationism, we know where it always ends up. Those who join in may not conceive of themselves as fascists, but they join in anyway.

After all, the drumbeat feels good. It's about scapegoating, telling people that their problems, and the problems of the world, are not their fault -- it's someone else's.

Boom ba boom.

It keeps drumming, and the louder it gets, the more people join in.

Boom ba boom boom boom.

And when they name their enemies, they're just getting started. First it's "illegals." Then it's "homosexuals." Then it's "Muslim radicals." Then it's "liberals." Then it's "the liberal media."

Boom ba boom boom Boom ba boom boom

And it just gets louder and louder. And pretty soon no one knows how to make it stop.

(the end of this essay)
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. "And pretty soon no one knows how to make it stop."
That is why Democrats have no chance. They have allowed this to go on for too damn long. Hell they even allow Rush Limbaugh to preach his hatred to our military. The Military should never be politicized but apparently Democratic leaders don't care. When they allow the likes of Rush Limbaugh to have a daily show on Armed Forces Radio telling our young men and women in uniform that Liberals are traitors and are aiding the terrorists we have bigger problems than Ann Coulter or Malkin. They truly "have no shame" and I am referring to our Democratic leaders in Congress as well as the Republican thugs that are terrorizing America.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. and lots of good stuff here
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thanks to you both!
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Blutodog Donating Member (291 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-07-06 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Excellent Post!!
e have to stand pat now and not be intimidated by these howling monkeys. Yes, the writer si correct they don't do this out of desperation or fear but out of a sense of impunity. Bu$h ahs signalled them that it's ok to let the bully in themselves go on a ramage. he wants us to lash back and strike out now because they/he knows how angry and frustrated we all are. They need our angry reaction and they would love for us to talk and commit acts of violence. Let's not give them what they want. Malkin, Coulter all of them are just trying to provoke us to rage. They aren't worth the time of day. Ignore them.
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
18. Cheers !
:toast:
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drduffy Donating Member (739 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 05:34 AM
Response to Original message
19. I have a problem with knowing
Edited on Sat Jul-08-06 05:36 AM by drduffy
just what to do in response to acts of verbal/written terrorism against the left.

Just what would have been the correct responses to the Nazis' growing verbal and then physical attacks against their enemies in the late twenties, early thirties in pre-WWII Germany? Merely attacking them with reasoned anger would have been sufficient? I think that what some have alluded to, the priming of the pump of irrational violent hatred towards liberals, progressives..... will, if not confronted, lead to violence and probably the 'camps'. I think it is high time that members of this forum begin to address in a coherent and directed manner, the most -effective- means of countering these spouters of hate and bile. I know that I struggle with this dilemma. Particularly in light of our inability to have much voice in the MSM.

But these demagogues and haters on the right will not go away simply because we confront them with light and reason. I think things have reached the point in Amerika where such tactics simply are inadequate. It is going to get much worse. Prepare yourselves.


edited for errors
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Please see my post immediately below.
If you've spent time around law enforcement, military or intelligence officers, you will know that most of them are reasonable, intelligent and dutiful people who want to the right thing. Give them the opportunity to do the right thing. Involve them in the process of protecting your rights and freedoms.

Many of us on the Left need to get over our stereotypes that all people in authority are fascists. That simply is not true. May I suggest that progressives get involved with local police in neighborhood watch or school safety programs. If there are military or intelligence families where you live or work, get to know and develop a personal relationship with them. If and when you or someone you know are threatened, it will be a lot easier (and more effective) to talk to a friend about how to deal with it. It will also be educational for you and them -- you'll probably discover that their perceptions about the insane state of current national leadership really aren't that different from yours.

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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. The same thing you do in response to acts of verbal/written terrorism
against anybody else. Contact the authorities and make sure they know about them. Expose the people who do this to the light of day. This needs to be done, however, EARLY. Don't let this kind of behavior pile up and hope it will go away, like the Gore's did in 2000 after a large, scary crowd of wingers gathered outside their house. I'm convinced if they had been willing to publicize that incident, it would have gone a long way towards showing Americans a side of the Bush Right the would have been unwilling to accept at that time.

>Just what would have been the correct responses to the Nazis' growing verbal and then physical attacks against their enemies in the late twenties, early thirties in pre-WWII Germany?

Well, the correct response was NOT responding in kind, because that's pretty much what many in the German left did at that time, and the result was political violence in the streets and fights in which the left were inevitably outnumbered and outgunned. Unlike the right, the left cannot count on having a significant number of powerful people in law enforcement or the media or the justice system or high finance to back them up, and the result is that reducing the fight to a slanging match or a contest to see who can knock out more teeth is a surefire formula for failure.

> Merely attacking them with reasoned anger would have been sufficient?

Since rewriting history is impossible, I don't know what would have been "sufficient." I can tell you that one conclusion that many historians made who studied the Third Reich is that Hitler COULD have been stopped -- not by invective or violence, but by vigilance early on. What helped propel him into power was the complacency of many in the middle who thought he was either too much of a crackpot to be taken seriously or that he was a tool they could use and control. So they either ignored him, or cloaked his sins and excesses, and the result was that, with the help of Streicher and Goebbels, he inured the grassroots more and more to atrocious statements and atrocious acts.

You know what Hitler seemed to truly fear? Mass demonstrations by Germans within Germany -- and not violent demonstrations either. The Nazi party relied very heavily on at least the illusion of widespread public support. When word of the euthenasia program against disabled children got out, Germans actually blocked the entrances to institutions for the disabled to prevent the removal and eventual murder of those children. Hitler quietly backed down and the program was scaled back. When the Jewish husbands of German women were locked up, their wives marched and demonstrated outside the building where they were being held. Eventually the men were released.

< I think that what some have alluded to, the priming of the pump of irrational violent hatred towards liberals, progressives..... will, if not confronted, lead to violence and probably the 'camps'. I think it is high time that members of this forum begin to address in a coherent and directed manner, the most -effective- means of countering these spouters of hate and bile. I know that I struggle with this dilemma. Particularly in light of our inability to have much voice in the MSM. But these demagogues and haters on the right will not go away simply because we confront them with light and reason.

No, they won't, and when I debate these people, it's not under the illusion that I'm going to convince them of everything. Most debates, however, in particular debates online, have silent spectators who can be swayed one way or another, either conservatives who can be awakened to what they are close to embracing, or moderates who need to see just how dangerous the situation is becoming.

Your point is quite well taken, though. We need to talk in detail about the best way to respond to a situation that is already dangerous. A few of my own rules are:

Know your facts. Carry them with you like bullets in a bandolier. Never, NEVER talk through your hat. If you are going to debate global warmng with people, for God's sake read up, not only on global warming, but on the arguments typically used by people attempting to debunk it. If you are arguing with someone about comparisons between the Third Reich and George Bush's America, make d*mned sure you actually know something about the Third Reich and are not making those comparisons merely because you want to be insulting. You'd be surprised, once you do that, how much easier debate can be for you, and how much more confident you'll be going into it.

When you confront many of these people with facts, they will often very quickly get out of their depth and resort to ad hominems. They're hoping to inveigle you into a slanging match, and nothing will reassure them more than you responding in kind. Don't take that bait. When it happens, call them on it. Repeat your point or your question and demand that they address it. When they don't, point that out.

When they lie -- and they very often will -- point it out once, but don't allow yourself to be sidetracked into a long discussion about the lie. Quite often these lies are less serious attempts to sell the lie than an attempt to get you off the subject. For instance, one repulsive bit of historical revisionism I keep encountering from the right is the "Hitler was a leftist" screed (because, you see, the Nazi Party's full name was the National SOCIALIST Party.) I start by briefly pointing out that the Nazis simply added the term "Socialist" to their party name in order to attract more members of the working class, and asking if the person making this claim considers Saddam Hussein's REPUBLICAN Guard a branch of the GOP. They will ignore that and insist on making the claim. When they do, I refuse to go any further down that road simply ask them why they are so intent on selling this lie. What interest do they have in pretending that Hitler was not a right winger? Quite often the person will vanish in a puff of sulphur at that point, but it does give many lurkers valuable food for thought.

> I think things have reached the point in Amerika where such tactics simply are inadequate. It is going to get much worse. Prepare yourselves.

Yes, I agree. I think it is going to get much worse.


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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. One thing would be for our Democrats in Congress to try and remove
Rush Limbaugh from Armed Forces Radio. There is absolutely no justification for politicizing the US Military. Period. I don't want balance I want all politicization removed. I don't want someone on there every day saying Liberals and Democrats are traitors and aiding the terrorists. Yet there are many here that don't seem to find anything wrong with that. That is one reason Democrats will not regain power for many many years. Unless we stand up soon we will never be able to.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
20. Thoughtful and penetrating post. Would like to add something.
Edited on Sat Jul-08-06 05:38 AM by leveymg
The aggression we are seeing from the loony-toon Right comes from something real. They sense, quite accurately, that there's a crisis of leadership created by the collapse of "respectable" Right-wing leadership, and the pitchfork and shotgun crowd is being sucked up by the vacuum into visibility.

These people are dangerous. If you feel threatened in any realistic way, particularly if there is a hate-crime element, document it and call the FBI AND the ACLU AND the NYT, as well as blogging about it. Do not be afraid to drop a dime when and if you sense that a line has been crossed, particularly if a loony threatens actual harm to people or property. That is a crime.

We are civilization, for what it's worth. We have every right to defend it.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 05:42 AM
Response to Original message
21. www.yaf.org...go there and read about it. I posted this last week
Edited on Sat Jul-08-06 05:46 AM by Skidmore
and only one or two people even bothered. THis is the Young America's Foundation, an organization started by Reagan. CSPAN broadcast a conference to HIGH SCHOOLERS, and these children were being indoctrinated in the most vile way. This group also schedules the events which crank out the little hatemongerers we've seen crop up on our nation's college campus. I gave up on kicking the damned thread up because no one appeared to be interested. The combined dumbing down of our educational system while systematically replacing critical thought with slogans we ignore at our own peril. An important battle has been enjoined in the schools and our side is not really engaged.

www.yaf.org check it out and learn.

My previous thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1562465
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I missed this. Our side isn't paying attention. The Right
has caught on to the effectiveness of the madrasah.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
24. On shame: they have none even as adults. Look what they did
Edited on Sat Jul-08-06 06:24 AM by sfexpat2000
to Andy Stephenson and to everyone around him. My information was posted to the net, we received threats over the phone, they compromised the urgent treatment he needed.

This culture is dysfunctional socially in the first place. It's already predisposed, as it were, to these behaviors. An example that comes to mind: We own this building (condo conversion) with another couple. We live in it, they don't. They are selling their interest and their workers have been here for the last two weeks.

They park in my space, use power tools at all hours of the day and night. Yesterday, they wanted to paint a porch my tenant has to traverse to get to her home -- without giving her the legally required notice. It's just the law. They have no problem violating the rights of others, none.

In that sense, as a society, we are truly predisposed to these behaviors and I don't see the Right having to work very hard to achieve their aims through these tactics.

We can't take this seriously enough.

/typo
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
25. Reason would require thinking - That is something these people
are not capable of. For them it is much easier to follow the leader.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
CAcyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
30. I am very,very impressed.
Welcome to DU!
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The Animator Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
31. but don’t resort to insult or name-calling.
A slanging match is the only fight they can really hope to win...


Sorry, but if I'm drawn into a brawl of insults and snarky comments there is no way in hell they have a chance of winning. I have a Grandmasters Black Belt in Smartass.
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Pamela Troy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. How proud you must be.
Edited on Sat Jul-08-06 11:44 AM by Pamela Troy
I've never met anyone who engaged in this kind of cr*p who wasn't convinced they were a master of it.


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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
34. The "serious action" that is taking place is,imo, being funded
by the Bush Admin. I would dearly love to see the money trail exposed.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
35. The point you make about....
the adolescent mind set of Coulter types is a very good one.

I've often found myself wondering, when reading the mouthings of those with Coulter's kind of "politics", if these folks are literally adolescents, or are just stuck at that stage of life emotionally and experientially. The self-righteousness of youth is a very dangerous thing when it's flames are being fanned by more experienced people with an agenda. A stellar example is the role young people played in Nazi Germany.

However, I do think we are seeing an increase in the outrageousness of Coulter's remarks, and the attack on the NYT because these people are losing their hold. You're correct that we need to fight them, now more than ever, when they are panicking.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
36. Great advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
quote:

The way to deal with them is to expose them. Don’t politely ignore their more outrageous comments. Bring them up. Force their apologists to defend them. Demand that the implications of their statements be examined in the cold light of day. Make it an issue, because it is an issue, and a damned important one. Be angry and be assertive, but don’t resort to insult or name-calling. A slanging match is the only fight they can really hope to win, and they’ll do everything they can to entice you into one.

Remember, these people don’t avoid reason because reason is an inferior weapon. They avoid it because reason is their enemy.

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timontheleft Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
37. This is great stuff
Thanks for the post. I agree - expose and confront. Make them defend their position; they won't be able to, because - as you state so well - ". . . these people don’t avoid reason because reason is an inferior weapon. They avoid it because reason is their enemy."

I'm sick of being nice to idiots that threaten the peace and security of my country. :grr: They need to realize that we are not going to just sit around and watch while they try to destroy the principles and values this country was truly founded on.

:dem:
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WatchWhatISay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
38. Read and appreciated
DU is so deep with great writers
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
39. The Demise of the "Fairness Doctrine" and the passing of Telecom Act
allowed Big Business & Repug RW Interests to flourish. It's easy to see in hindsight the results of these two major losses for free speech. What I wonder is why no one saw what was coming. When Rush Limbaugh first opened his mouth.

It's very hard to fight back against Mellon-Scaife and Repug RW Lobby Machines along with Legitimate Global Business interests.

All we have are us scrappers here trying to fight back ont he Liberal Blogs. Until we have a voice in Congress to pushback the telecom advantages that the RW and Big Business/Think Thanks have...it's going to get worse.

We have to hope for a change in attitude from the public who will start to feel enough pain from the Bush Policies that the Malkins and Coulters and the rest will suddenly sound much more "cruel" than the "yuk fest" they've inspired out there in the game of "Entertainment" for ratings.

We live in a terrible time that shouldn't be. Not after what some of us remember of the 60's and 70's. The environental movement and "back to earth" excitement of that time is all but dead.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
40. I don't think of the likes of Coulter and Malkin as childish
but as callous, calculating, narcissistic opportunists who feed on other grownups' ignorance and stupidity. Maybe it's naive and childish, in a way, to assume they're not sincere - but I don't believe they are. If you ask me, comparing them to children is an insult to most children.

I do think it's a good idea to engage them, indirectly, by attempting to engage the grown-up idiots who believe their bullshit in calm, rational analysis of said bullshit. The operative word being attempting. It can even be effective to compare the bullshitters to children, when you're speaking to people who don't respect children, but it's still an insult to children.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
42. Take a look at this thread: an illustration.
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