My mom was telling me there was much less poverty when she was young...

[gorbal]

(Again) And I actually caught myself thinking, "Ah well they just sugar coated everything better during the "Swell" years". But then I remebered a "United For A Fair Economy" educational I had attended a year ago, and went on their site to dig up some graphs for y'all.

http://www.faireconomy.org/research/income_charts.html



It struck me then, even thought I already knew it, I didn't realize how much better things WERE.


(For those who don't know this is a follow-up of another thread about Sweden)

[Sadie5]

1. My parents went through the depression

Things were not so good then.

[Ravenseye]

5. Yeah and then we got the New Deal

http://64.226.238.78/PA/pk/pk213.shtml

The New Deal, and World War 2 helped create a large middle class and lifted millions out of poverty. As the Krugman article states even the Republicans back then supported a progressive tax structure where the highest bracket was 91%!

Things were bad in the Depression and thirty years before that in the height of the Robber Baron age when the Republican party dominated and was controlled by big business, and used wedge issues to keep the Democratic party and all progressive opposition at bay, playing different civil war cards and such.

The problem was when in the seventies the conservative movement began to start taking apart the New Deal. The graphic shows what's happened since then.

Oh by the way. If we tracked unemployment figures like they did during the great depression we'd actually have a higher rate of unemployment right now than they did then. Just fyi.

[kskiska]

9. Mine, too

My mother says she didn't really know she was poor because everyone else was in the same boat.

[Arkansas Granny]

24. I grew up in the 50's and that's the way it was where I lived. I was

raised in rural southern Missouri and we didn't realize we were poor because everyone that lived around us had approximately the same living conditions. There was some variation between the upper and lower end of the scale, but the majority were in the middle.

[flamin lib]

2. ...

[eleny]

3. If your mom is about my age, she's right

i'm 59. my folks worked in factories to put me through a private university back in the 60s. that would be amazing now. we didn't have a lot of stuff. no phone till i was 8 or tv till i was 7. no car till i was 19. but we lived in nyc. shopping was literally a few blocks away. we walked everywhere or took buses and trains. but we never lived on the edge. did things more frugally and had a terrific life with more good memories.

btw, i checked out your blog and love the art works. i've bookmarked it for enjoying this weekend.

[gorbal]

4. Thank you:)

I'm trying to get more of my stuff online for people to see.

[gorbal]

6. She was telling me how most people could resonably afford a house

....and have health insurance and feel safe walking down the street. I am reminded of what I have read, about how things have gotten much worse since lawmakers began dismantling the New Deal in the eighties.(My mom is almost 60:))


I love that UFE sight. If you go here you can download some spiffy charts and educational materials.

http://www.faireconomy.org/econ/workshops/download/growing_divide.html

Those UFE folks blow my mind.

[eleny]

16. And our population has grown so much

That's a factor. Thanks!

[MichiganVote]

25. Companies helped families purchase homes at one time

They wanted stable communities re: stable workforce, schools etc. These communities still exist but the bungalow's are looking more and more tired. Now going the way of rentals for $5-700 a month. At the current wages structure, few people can afford to purchase even these 60 year old homes. Paper mills have dried up, other manufacturing the same, so neighborhoods are very unstable. Trickle down bullshit.

[SoCalDem]

37. In Kansas in the 50's NO ONE had medical insurance

Didn;t NEED it..

a trip to the dentist was about $5...same for the doctor, and sometimes he GAVE you the medicine you needed..

Hospitals in our town were run by the Methodist church and the Catholic church.. They never asked for money or proof of money.. They sent a very fair bill, and you could pay whatever you could afford.. When my grandmother died at St Mary's Hospital, they never even sent a bill for about 3 months, yet they sent a sympathy card immediately..

Doctors made housecalls and sent you a bill for about $10..

A trip to the pediatrician for all THREE of my boys in New Mexico in 1979 cost me $40, and INCLUDED vaccinations for ALL of them....

[Retired AF Dem]

41. "people could resonably afford a house"

Which begs the question, why is housing so expensive in the "blue" states?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

42. The "blue" states encompass the cities with the most desireable coastal

locations, and the majority of the economic powerhouses in the U.S. (NYC, LA, SF, Boston, D.C., Chicago), so naturally as there has been a housing bubble, it has affected primarily the coastal U.S.

I've lived in those blue coastal cities, and I'm living in the reddest of red suburbs in the Southwest (TX). There's no comparison. While I think the disparity in housing costs is truly insane, and the actual difference in quality of living in no way accounts for the difference in cost, it was WAY nicer living in SoCal and the Northeastern U.S., even aside from the prevalence of wingnut politics here. But I'm here for a job, for a while.

[Retired AF Dem]

43. My wife and me own two houses

One is located in Waukegan IL, 150,000 for a small house with a 1/4 acre yard and almost $3000 a year in property taxes. The other house is located in Al on the TN border. It is a bigger house, 2 acre yard, cost $90,000 and property tax is almost $200.00 a year. It is just a shame that the best places for a liberal to live is to damn expensive except for the richest of folks.

[Breeze54]

30. oh yeah..it was pissa!!

:sarcasm:

No new clothes...ever!, no TV until I was @ 6 or 7, no car until then either!
But that didn't matter because the kids had to walk everywhere or double up on bikes.
Old clothing/hand-me-downs, no radio (one in the whole house!),
used bicycles (rebuilt over and over), please give me a break!
It wasn't "that" special!

Go-karts with baby carriage wheels were fun though! ;)

We did have a phone though. Weighed a ton! :rofl:

I remember getting a big, rectangular, plastic box, clock radio,
when I was around 13 or so...I was thrilled!! gheeze... :crazy:

Although we had seven kids and all were attending parochial school (tuition $$)
but after three or four kids, the tuition was free! LOL! ;) ( or reduced )
But we did eat well, farm delivered produce and my father had a good job but lots of bills.
I guess I was the one who always got the hand-me-downs...I remember being po'd and feeling short-changed!

We learned to be creative and make our own entertainment!

[Just Me]

7. We are in "depression",....just fooled into believing otherwise.

Seriously.

[Ksec]

8. The indifference towards the poor is worse now also

Most of the time, its all about me me me. The richest have become much greedier also.

[bobbieinok]

10. IMO, when Reagan was elected greed became king

It became OK to be for ME ME ME. Everything's been pretty much downhill except for 92-94 (94 repubs took over congress).

[Ksec]

11. Its all about whats good for the stockholders

The new economy. Since so many people have the new retirement 401K's then they can say that most of America are stockholders and whats good for the shareholders is good for everyone. To Hell with your job and your wages. The bottom line of the corporation is what matters since were all shareholders. Thats whats made a lot of the new poor today.

[gorbal]

12. 92-94 were very good years.

My good nineties feelings started ending around 96...when did yours end?

[bobbieinok]

21. when I saw a headline that repubs were 'rethinking affirmative action'

I knew then there was a major plan to delete the 60s.

The whole attack on Clinton was a way to 'redo the 60s and win.' Clinton liked blacks, believed minorities and women were competant and equal in ability and rights to men; he also--horror of horrors--opposed the Vietnam War when it was going on and continued to oppose it in the 80s and 90s. So he was a symbol of everything the republicans hated and wanted to 'fix.'

I got so sick of men who had taken academic deferments in the 60s and then when the war was long over they moaned that they 'had missed the defining moment of their generation.' Of course, protesting the war was also a defining moment of my and their generation. But those guys sat it out, took advantage of their good fortune, and then pretended they 'really would have been gung-ho warriors if only they had known.' WHAT GARBAGE

[fat dad]

40. There wasn't a homeless problem until Reagan.

I grew up near the Cleveland Psychriatic Institute. Every city had one, a place that took care of borderline mentally ill, who had a hard time caring for themselves. When Reagan cut funding for these, and closed hundreds of them, including the one near my home, suddenly there were homelss people everywhere.

[knitter4democracy]

36. I agree.

Remind me sometime to tell the story of the guild member who complained about doing charity knitting who was rich and lived in a huge, gorgeous house. :eyes:

[Skidmore]

13. There are more people who look well off now, but who are living beyond

their means. They have massive debt loads and are, in fact, impoverished. House-poor, we used to say. People did have a lot less when I was a kid, but they were content to live with what their salaries could afford for them. There was shame to be in debt. McMansions, designer cars and clothes, and doodads and gadgets were part of the future. Basic appliances were major investments. It was hard to get a loan, and credit cards didn't exist. You could get a line of credit with your local grocer or hardware store. A page in a notebook that the clerk kept tabs on and you settled on an agreed upon term. No interest rates.

[gorbal]

18. I know people who can't afford health care that have cable

Health insurance is so expensive, at some income brackets there is no way you can afford it unless you get it through work. At the same time, some in the upper end of those lower brackets can afford cable television, video games, trips to the mall and movies, just not what they really need, even if they cut everything else out.

[kskiska]

19. Back then, people didn't have to everything right away

They started with a little, and as their earnings increased, gradually worked up to a level of comfort and didn't go into debt. Today young people want everything immediately.

[onethatcares]

32. I agree with you about that

My dad worked a full time union job (uaw), he also cut lawns almost every nite of the week, he did painting and odd jobs, hell, he walked to work in the snow just so he could be there to get his time in. But, they were able to raise 5 kids, get a newer car every three years, take us all on vacation, but we knew meals of galumpkies, and perogies, and meatless meals. Both my folks realized you didn't get it when you wanted it, you saved and did without once in a while to get it.

Now it seems harder and harder just to keep up with what my wife and I have without taking vacations or having new cars. We're a bit lucky, we both have full time 30K a year deals, but with gas, homeowners insurance, repair and replacement of wornout stuff, it is getting harder and harder to keep up.

Peace

[TallahasseeGrannie]

14. And both parents didn't have to work

to make ends meet. You could even BUY a house on one income. No more.

[johnaries]

15. Wow! Did you see these 2 graphs?

http://www.faireconomy.org.nyud.net:8090/images/Inequality.org/Family_Income_1979-2001.gif

http://www.faireconomy.org.nyud.net:8090/images/Inequality.org/Change_After_Tax_Family_Inc.gif

Follow the link below the 2nd chart: http://www.cbpp.org/9-23-03tax.htm and check out the section on Federal Tax Burden

Contrary to claims that taxes were at or near record levels before the 2001 tax cut, the CBO data show that the percentage of income that most Americans paid in federal taxes declined between 1979 and 2000 and was actually at relatively low levels in 2000, in historical terms.

- Among the middle fifth of families, for example, the percentage of income paid in federal taxes — including income, payroll, and excise taxes — dropped from 18.6 percent of income in 1979 to 16.7 percent of income in 2000. The 16.7 percent level was the lowest during the 21-year period the CBO data cover.
- Among the top one percent of taxpayers, the percentage of income paid in federal taxes fell sharply in the 1980s and then rose part of the way back during the 1990s. Still in 2000, this high-income group paid a smaller share of its income in federal taxes than it did in 1979, amounting to a reduction of about $50,000 in the average tax bill of these upper-income households.
- The CBO data also show that before-tax incomes shot up faster among the top one percent of the population during the 1990s — when their federal taxes were increased — than during the 1980s, when their federal taxes were reduced. These results — and the fact that investment and productivity growth accelerated, rather than slowed, in the 1990s — cast doubt on the simple theory that action to increase the tax burdens of those households is economically destructive.
- The CBO data indicate that changes in the federal tax system exacerbated the growth in income disparities during the 1980s, but narrowed the growth in the 1990s. In both decades the growth in income disparities largely reflected changes in before-tax income, but the different effects of tax system changes in the two decades is one of several factors that account for the more broad-based income growth that occurred in the 1990s. A primary goal of government policies in the decade ahead should be to replicate this more broad-based growth.

Yeah, looks like Bush's tax cuts for the rich were really necessary, huh?

[gorbal]

17. Wow great graphs!

I love what people take what you aready know for the most part and present it in a simplified yet ey-opening format that helps you see the situation in a whole new light.:)

[johnaries]

27. Yes, and thank you for your research!

People like pictures.

Honestly, when you write a long paragraph quoting lot's of numbers the average person's eye's will just glaze over and just get lost, bored, and confused.

When it's laid out in a graph, chart, or picture... well, a picture really IS worth a thousand words.

Thank you for the reference site! It's a whole treasure trove of information! I will be using it again, and again, and again....

:toast:

[Nabia2004]

20. The number of homeless people is the most noticeable

As a teen in the late 60s early 70s, each summer I would travel cross country by Greyhound bus to visit my grandmother. There would be the occasional bum or drifter at the stations, but I don't recall ever seeing so many homeless people. Now it seems like they are everywhere.

[gorbal]

23. I remember having to work late in Los Angeles...

I had to run through the center of hell to get from one bus to another at night. I remember being directed to go down this one street and told it was safe, and what I saw shocked me.

I remember a small part of the middle of the city surrounded by cops and full...I mean chock FULL... of the most harried, tortured looking souls you have ever seen in your god forsaken life. They just walked all night up and down the street, never stopping. They looked like they hadn't slept in months.

[grilled onions]

22. Many Things Were Different

Jobs were mostly plentiful in the unskilled positions. Kids were able to get jobs sweeping stores,hawking newspapers,mowing lawns without government intervention about their age. Not everyone could afford a home but there were ample SRO's in the cities to keep the down and outers off the streets with at least shelter on a nightly basis.
Once you had a job,or worked up to a decent one you knew you had it for as long as you wanted. Jobs did not disappear overseas. Companies fought to keep American employees working.
Many were allowed to grow vegetables in the backyard without redtape from city hall. Some could sell them for extra cash,again without complaints from city hall.
We have a gov't that keeps telling people to be independent yet everytime people try to do so they tack another provision(another cut for themselves or their pals)and people take two steps back for every foot forward.

[Gormy Cuss]

26. I saw a lot more poverty in my youth

I remember the pre-Food Stamps and WIC days when the choice between paying the rent and buying food was real for an awful lot of very poor people.

I don't think the rate of poverty has increased any where near as dramatically as the level of marginalized blue collar workers has. It used to be, post WWII, that hard work and a union card was the ticket to a middle class lifestyle for blue collar workers. Now that segment of the population has shrunk dramatically and been replaced by the 'Nickeled and Dimed' workers.

[gorbal]

28. Check out the graphs

The rate of poverty has increased DRAMATICALLY. You just didn't see it on the news as much until Katrina hit.

[Gormy Cuss]

29. The one in the OP does not show that

It shows that the bottom 40% of households by income experienced a sharp drop off on household worth. It does not address the poverty rate over time. The percent of households in poverty is under 20% by the most generous estimates (using census calculations it's about 13%.)

What the UFE chart shows is that the lower income households, including those who are just above the poverty level, are losing ground dramatically while the top 1% are gaining the most. It's too bad they grouped the lowest 40% together rather than tiering them in deciles and comparing the distribution over time. That would be a better way to project the declining middle class and the hit on the blue collar income workers.

[gorbal]

38. Oh okay, I get what your saying now

If you were young before the new deal started taking effect you definately saw alot more poverty. I was assuming you were my mums age for some reason. 20 percent is pretty darn dramatic in my book.

[Breeze54]

31. That's still happening today...

"pre-Food Stamps and WIC days when the choice between paying the rent and buying food
was real for an awful lot of very poor people"

Even with that help, those are choices, still happening today to the poor.

It's real! :-(

[Gormy Cuss]

33. Of course it still happens. It happened much more without those FNS

programs, which is what I wrote. Both food stamps (no longer in the form of a stamp, but an EBT card) and WIC were responsible for elevating the level of basic nutrition level among the lowest income people. That there are still those who don't have sufficient access to food is a national shame, but it's much better than it was before those programs were introduced.

Back then there was little in the way of charitable food networks like food pantries or soup kitchens either. Today many soup kitchens rely on Federal donations of surplus food to supplement the donations from private sources. School lunch programs existed but on a much smaller scale and other school-based food programs were essentially non-existent. There are many more ways to get basic food needs met now. If you think it's bad out there now, imagine what it would be like without all of those supports.

[Vidar]

34. Turning the mentally ill onto the streets during the Reagan years

awas the major cause of the homelss problem.

[SoCalDem]

35. Poverty was different back then..

If you eliminated the coastal urban centers, you would see that most towns were separated by housing quality. The higher the income, the newer/better the house..or if the town was big enough, the OLD money ensured a palatial existence , in old-money houses near the country club..far removed from the "townspeople"..

Towns had ONE shopping area (the downtown) so everyone "mingled" there. Schools were neighborhood schools, so kids went to school with kids in their own financial strata. There were still many neighborhood grocers.. People did not have more than one car, in many families, so Mom (who were at home mostly) shopped often and a lot of the time..on foot. (almost European-style)..grocers lived above of behind their stores and even delivered gorceries to old people in the neighborhood...or to harried Moms. Pharmacies even delivered..

Neighbohoods were encapsulated... kids stayed IN there to play or go to school..Dads left each day to go to work, but most did not go that far... A sales job in a downtown store WOULD support a family back then. Lots of Dads of friends of mine worked in men's clothing stores, bookstores, printing companies, office supply places, etc..

Kids went away to college, so inter-marrying between the classes was not all that common. The ones who married right out of high school usually married within their own strata. The smart ones who were poor, still got a decent shot at college and once there, they set their sights pretty high, and usually did not return to the local home hown..

The bosses of locally owned companies who hired the poorer folks, also LIVED in the community, and may have even grown up there. Bosses drove better cars and took out-of town shopping trips to Kansas City or Wichita, but they were NOT super-rich, nor were they all that "uppity"..

People who were poor, mostly associated with others just like themselves, so they didn't FEEL poor..

ADVERTISING and TV that came along with a vengeance from the 60's on, made them feel poor....

Consolidated school districts made the kids feel poor, since they were now lumped together with the "rich kids".
Mergers and buyouts of companies, and the layoffs that always follow, made them poorer..
Suburban sprawl made them poorer.. Town people who had done just fine for a hundred years with their small stores, local grocers, and a vigorous downtown, did not have the money to join the "sprawl", and they were just left behind...jobless, poorer than ever, and forgotten..

[gorbal]

39. There are "Truth Commisons" occuring next week

Has anyone ever been to one of these "Truth Commisions"

http://www.economichumanrights.org/actions/nationaltruthcommission.htm

[1932]

44. LBJ cut the number iin poverty in half, IIRC. In the 60s the US reduced

poverty.

It has been going up recently even by our outdated measures.

Since the early 70s, wages have stagnated in the US. Since the 90s, debt has gone up a great deal. That's a terrible combination.