Heroes are built up to be torn down...

[kentuck]

Especially political heroes. The last hero that was going to save us was Dr. Howard Dean. Somehow, they managed to tear him down with an over-zealous "hoo-yah". But, the sad fact is there is no one hero that is going to save us - either as a Party or as a nation.

Perhaps in times past, it may have been possible? But with the microscopic interpretations of partisan media, those times are long gone. If we are looking for an Obama, or a Kerry, or a Gore, to come riding into town on a white horse and rescue us and our nation from our present depths of despair, it isn't going to happen.

Todays political heroes will come in the form of groups or movements, perhaps united behind one of the leaders above, but not in the form of one individual. Individuals are much easier to tear down than an entire group, but it is not impossible to tear down an entire group. Until the group becomes acceptable by the majority of the people, it is at risk of being torn down by professional and corporate propagandists.

That said, we need to understand that we are all "heroes" in a movement to save our nation. That is why we are here. We are building a message and a future by our words and our deeds. It is up to all of us and we should not place the burden of "hero" on any one person's shoulders. We are all human and no one person is capable of carrying that mantle under the present political realities.

[Faygo Kid]

1. We don't need a hero. But we could use a leader - Lincoln, FDR - Gore?

God knows, we sure could use a leader - a Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King - who doesn't "triangulate" but speaks to the better angels of our nature. They are usually killed. Your point is well taken, and we need to fight on, but we could use visionary leadership. No more BS, "I support the president" crap; no fear of the right wing talk show thugs. I think Gore comes the closest.

[Warpy]

6. I'm DONE with leaders!

What I want is a TECHNICIAN, somebody who will see the problems and try to fix them and if the fix doesn't work, admit it and try something else.

Leaders tend to be certain of themselves, it's what makes them charismatic enough to be leaders. We've had too many of them who have been charismatically WRONG.

It's time for a break. It's time to cast off that childish hope for a big hero to solve our problems. We don't need a hero. We need a muddler.

[Imajika]

2. Good post...

I agree with much of what you say.

Don't forget, hero's are built up and torn down right here on DU all the time.

Hackett was a hero, now apparently a goat for disagreeing with Murtha and defending soldiers as innocent until proven guilty. Scheuer was a hero here when his book Imperial Hubris came out, only to be torn back down the minute he strays from the prevailing collective DU opinion. How many times has Robert Byrd been built up and torn right back down? The list goes on and on and on and on.

Maybe one reason we are so short on hero's these days is people are all too willing to abandon someone the minute they don't say what we want to hear? Dunno.

I do think your right about hero's mostly coming in the form of groups and movements. Still, there will be more individual charismatic "heros" in the future though. Always has been and always will be. The danger is, very charismatic types can be extremely dangerous because of the extreme's they can take a population - no matter what political package they come in.

[MADem]

4. Lou Dobbs gets it from all sides, too!!

Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer...the list is endless!

Here's how I look at it: if they are with me more than 80 percent of the time, I can live with them. If they're with me 90 percent of the time, they're damn good, and odds are their differences come from a great deal of thought and personal certitude.

If they're with me 100 percent of the time...well, that would be my shadow, eh?

[Imajika]

10. Yup, add Dobbs to the list...

Though I always kinda viewed Dobbs as a xenophobic Pat Buchanan mini me. Never really understood why he was so popular here, but I suppose anyone who bashes Bush will be a "hero" here for awhile - only to be torn down later. Just my opinion on him anyway.

For me, if a politician is with me more than the likely alternative I will generally vote for them. Even if that is just a matter of selecting the lesser of two evils. When it comes to primaries I will look at ideology, but consider electability. I'm from Virginia and just voted in our primary. I voted for Webb even though I'm fairly certain he will wind up being a Democrat in name only. Miller was, in my view, the candidate who I generally liked better. Problem is, I believe Webb has some chance of defeating Allen - whereas, I thought Miller had virtually no chance to defeat Allen. So if Webb wins in November, he probably won't be my favorite Senator - but he will almost certainly be better than Allen and he WILL vote for Reid for majority leader. Just the vote for Reid for majority leader makes it worth backing Webb in my view - assuming you believe the alternative Dem candidate probably couldn't win in the general election.

DU just doesn't reflect American public opinion, and you have to consider where the electorate really is on issues when planning campaigns and selecting candidates. Too many people here just don't seem to get that. Too many folks think because all of the people they associate with on political forums and all of their friends think like them, that this means the majority of people in any precinct, district, state or even nationally view things like them also. No political forum would reflect American public opinion - simply because, for the most part, only partisans and activists take the time to post on these things. There aren't many "moderate" forums around on either side for a reason. Striving for political purity is just silly in my view.

Thanks for your comments.

[MADem]

17. Well, just so you don't get TOO jaded, here's an image to cheer you

as you work towards new representation in your state:



I know what you mean about electability v. purity. I get it, and I agree that there's too many whose ideological litmus test consists soley of what THEY think the key issues are, and if you don't fall in line with THEIR views, then you aren't sufficiently "Democratic." I keep harping on about the Big Tent, and the My Way crowd doesn't go for that. The irony is, I tend to agree with the My Way crowd on most issues, but I can't see cutting off our conservative ass to spite our liberal face, and bleeding to death in the process. Pragmatism is intelligent. Ideological goosestepping is begging for extinction. I don't see the latter as a viable option!

I live nearby an old lady who is a lifelong Democrat, but in some of her stances, you'd think she was GOP. She still pulls the lever D, but she gripes about it. She actually thinks HILLARY is "too liberal"...if she spent five minutes here, she's probably have a tough time reconciling that view with the theory that HC and the Monkey were separated at birth!

I used to know Jim Webb a long, long time ago. He was a baaastid, to put it nicely--but one smart cookie. I've heard he has mellowed a great deal in his old age, and that's a good thing. I agree that he CAN beat Allen--the USN/USMC and other service crossover active and retiree vote in Tidewater and Metro has to have Allen shitting MASSIVE bricks. Sorta ruins his chance to test run his Prez run, too--no chit chats in Iowa cornfields, no strolling the streets of Manchester NH...and all that money he raised, hoping to use it toward 08...well, spend, spend, spend, Felix! He's gonna need a boatload of media buys, and I get the sense that the DNC will see AND raise him.

[Imajika]

25. Ughhh...that image...

Lol. Thanks for the response. I agree with your comments. You are a realist. We need more like you around these parts ;)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. We need to stop looking for "heroes" or "leaders".

In this alleged democracy, we are supposed to be the bosses. Not the self-proclaimed "heroes" and "leaders" who assume the role bestowed upon them by a hero worshipping public. And, we certainly shouldn't promote politicians to "hero" status because they can win elections.

“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

[madfloridian]

19. We have to have leaders.

It sounds nice to all be marching to different drummers, but it could get so loud that way we could not hear each other at all.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Thomas Jefferson disagrees.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to Heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." Thomas Jefferson

[madfloridian]

23. Sounds good, but won't work.

Every movement needs leaders, or no one listens to each other.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Why is that?

I don't feel any great desire to be "led".

As another poster said, "leaders" are really followers of the drift of history. When they become "leaders" in fact, Lord Acton's quote about the corruption of power kicks in.

[madfloridian]

26. I felt that way in the 60s.

I don't anymore. I don't put all my faith in leaders, but I think we need them. We are starting from two different world views.

[kentuck]

27. I agree that we need leaders...

But the ideas will come from the people, The true leaders will recognize the wishes of the people and will communicate and espouse those ideas. If we did not have "leaders", how would we get everyone into the House of Representatives? Without vision, the people are lost.

However, there is a difference between leaders and heroes.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. Just the reverse for me.

I thought that we needed leaders in the '60s. Everyone from JFK to Che Guevara.

Having seen what "leaders" have done to the world, I think we can dispense with them.

[Marr]

21. That's true- and besides, the people who generally get called "leaders"

were just people who saw a popular movement already happening, and attached themselves to it, calling themselves the leader. Like someone leaping in front of a parade in progress, twirling their baton and pretending they started the whole thing.

When people en masse decide they won't tolerate something another minute, things change.

[madfloridian]

5. Oh, wait...

I thought Dean was party chairman now. Maybe he's not the fallen hero after all? Maybe?

The others are speaking out and working for our party and country. Maybe they are still heroes as well.

[kentuck]

7. Oh, wait...

He's now the Party Chairman. He will save us after all. He's not a fallen hero. He will save us. If he were not a hero, he would not be Party Chairman, right?

[madfloridian]

8. A hero is one who picks himself up off the floor and starts over.

I think we have a lot of heroes in our party.

I think I usually respect your posts, but to see you sort of put down so many Dem leaders in one post....well it bothers me.

Yes, I think Dean is a hero. I think our party has a lot of bruised heroes who just keep trying to bring change while Democratic forums do nothing but attack and belittle.

[kentuck]

9. I guess it depends on your definition of a hero...

There are no heroes that are going to be your Savior. Dr Dean is a great spokesman for the Party. But look how easily they tore him down when he was such a threat to the status quo. Don't put your marbles on heroes. Invest in the people and the movement and a belief. Otherwise, you will be terribly disappointed, in my opinion.

[madfloridian]

11. That seems to be talking down to me.

I am not going to play the is Dean a god game with you. We have too damn much work to do.

Please read my posts again if you think I am hero worshipping. I think all of our Democrats who survived 04, survived the battering from the left and the right are heroes.

A hero is not someone I worship, it is someone I admire. I usually admire your posts, but not lately.

We are in such a fragile condition in this country, it hurts to come here and see negativity all the time. We have to have leaders, we have to have people to whom we give power. That is how it works.

I have been on the phone most of the day with our local party leaders. We have such a battle here in this conservative area. It will be years before this part of Florida has any hope at all. Our DFA groups are making a difference, and we are still following the idea that Gov. Dean had that people make a difference.....but they still need leaders and heroes.

[kentuck]

12. I apologize that you take it so personally...

But, I will say again. There is no hero coming on a white horse to save you or the Democratic Party. There are leaders, like Dr. Dean, whom we all appreciate and support, but he is not going to save the Party by himself. It is up to all of us. What else did I say that you found so offensive?

[madfloridian]

13. I am sorry you think I am waiting for a hero on a white horse to save me.

That is rather offensive. I work my butt off here, so does my hubby. We are getting more people involved here, but it is a battle. I am way too old to be waiting on men on white horses.

And by the way, I am not sure the party can be saved anyway. I think it needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up...which is what we are trying to do...no heroes saving us no white horses.

In its present form, the party is useless. I am working to change that. I hope you are as well.

Because of what happened in 04, because of the research our groups have done...we are still active where we were not before.

I am sorry you think of me as some kind of teeny bopper who worships. There has been enough of that talking to each other like that. It went on during 04 here at DU and it nearly destroyed all of us that kind of stuff did.

[kentuck]

15. I'm glad we are in agreement.

:)

[madfloridian]

18. I am not so sure we are in agreement, if you think of me that way.

I am too far along in life to be treated like a teen-ager. We have battles we are fighting in our area of Florida, and unfortunately some of the most vicious are with our own party's former leaders who think the Republicans can do everything better than we can.

So I do most certainly stand with Governor Dean in that way...that change must come or we won't succeed.

DU is pretty vicious to our leaders.

[kentuck]

20. Treated like a teenager??

Please give an example? It was not intentional, I assure you. I tried to make a thoughtful post to help us look at things in an honest and realistic way, so we could avoid disappointment in the future and be prepared to battle those that harming our country. My intent is to offer constructive criticism. I fail to see why or where it could be misconstrued??

[hfojvt]

14. I thought it was kudos to all the little heroes in the grass roots

more than a put down of the leaders. I am a huge fan of Dean, on most days, but one of the things he does will is motivate and inspire the grassroots.

And it is a little bit extreme to say Democratic Forums do nothing but attack and belittle. Newton's second law of arguments is that "for every argument, there is an equal but opposite counter-argument". For ever poster on a Democratic forum who attacks and belittles, there is usually one that defends and upholds. Except in the case of Lieberman, Nader, Tweety, and the DLC in general in which case we run about 19-1 against.

[madfloridian]

16. One can give kudos to little leaders, but we need big ones as well.

And yes, our Democratic forums do a very good job of tearing each other down.

I simply stated that perhaps Dean was a hero...becoming party chair after the way he was ripped apart by his own party and the media. I think the other leaders he mentioned are heroes as well to have survived the 04 primary and elections with all the division in this country.

I think Obama is a hero for daring to speak of his faith while our side bashes him for it.

I admire all of them, and the little people need big leaders. That's how it works.