How is hiring an illegal different from hiring a legal under the table?

[eeyore]

This morning I drove by one of the corners in my city where the latino guys wait to get pick up for day work. You can just drive up to the corner, tell them how many guys you need, and they will get into your vehicle to go work your job. I assume that most of these guys are illegals, but maybe some are legal and just looking for under the table work.

So, I got to thinking - how is hiring an illegal any different than hiring someone under the table to do a job? I think most of us could admit to paying someone to do a job for us without reporting it to the IRS. Ostensibly, paying for that work is just as illegal as paying someone who is not a citizen. The end result is the the same - supporting an underground economy that sidesteps any reported income or tax payment.

I personally have been paid as a graphic designer and musician under the table very often. I also didn't report all of my tips as a waiter, which is very standard practice. I cannot judge anyone who is just trying to survive, which is what I believe they guys on the corner are trying to do.

I have a feeling that most people who are adamantly against hiring illegals have either been paid or hired someone under the table. Hell, it's the American dream to find an employer who won't report all of your income! So, how do people justify the difference in attitude? Is is racism, xenophobia, or classism?

[Fountain79]

1. It's different...

A person who is here without permission is breaking the law just by being here. They don't have to be working to be doing anything illegal.

[Sherman A1]

2. Precisely

While the hiring comes out to be pretty much the same in the end. You have summed up the arguement very well....

[Homer Wells]

3. That sounds like Hair-Splitting to me!

Hypocrisy is hypocrisy no matter how you look at it. A rose by any other name.......

[1932]

5. I think that's the rationalization people make to convince themselves

there's a difference.

But there's really no difference.

Why do people object to poor immigrants who take low paying jobs? One reason I hear all the time is that it drives down wages. So does a US citizen getting paid under the table. But why doesn't anyone complain about those kinds of law breakers? Because people see the US citizen breaking the law as a victim and aren't comfortable punishing him or her. But take that same person and make him and immigrant, and suddenly, and somewhat irrationally, the resistance to punishing the worker is a lot lower and the enthusiasm for seeing this is a huge social and political probalem is a lot greater.

[Fountain79]

21. Could you answer this question...

is there or is there not laws pertaining to how people enter this country?

[tyedyeto]

26. Could you answer this question...

Are or are there not laws pertaining to hiring employees? How often are employers who hire undocumented workers ( I refuse to call them illegals ) fined or jailed for hiring them?

[Fountain79]

32. ok...

Illegal: not according to or authorized by law .

Alien: An unnaturalized foreign resident of a country.

Attaching those two words together seems to make sense to me. An illegal immigrant is an unnaturalized foreign resident of a country who has not sought permission or authorization to live here. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

As to your main point, I think the harder one makes it for illegals to find work here the more likely they will try legitimate means. That being said I do believe that our current immigration system needs to be overhauled for the changing times.

[melnjones]

11. please see post #10 eom

[Fountain79]

20. Again....

It goes back to the beginning. The person who is here illegally is already breaking the law just by being in this country.

[SoCalDem]

23. AND, I would guess that even a guy working "under the table"

has, at times, actually paid into the system, and probably will again at some time.. The people I know who work under the table, are usually doing day work to get by until they find something permanent. It's a rare person who can support themselves for a lifetime on "day labor"..

as for tips.. I think they should be TOTALLY free from taxes... I look at tips as gifts..

[eeyore]

24. I've been audited as a waiter....

I worked for a chain of brewpubs, and the entire company was audited. The IRS just came in and asked to see all of the servers' tipbooks. Things have gotten a lot stricter with tips now that many places have point of sale computerized cash registers. It's really easy for the IRS to come in and look at your sales, estimate a percentage of tipping, and bust you if you are reporting anything significanty below that percentage.

I know many restaurants now that actually withhold tips and disburse them in paychecks. That way the company is in control of the situation, and no longer relies upon the (cough) "honesty" of their wait staff. We used to report about 5% of our tips before the audit, then we upped it to about 25%, still making off 75% tax free.

I've heard that many illegals in the agricuture and food industries actually have fake SS#s, so in theory they are actually paying into the system. It's pretty rampant at this point.

[Cocoa]

4. the illegal is more exploitable than you are

in your under-the-table jobs, it was more of a choice on your part and market forces played more of a role in what you got paid.

In the case of the illegals, they don't have a whole lot of bargaining power.

[1932]

8. But shouldn't that make the outrage greater over domestic tax-avoiders

Not only do you have the employer circumventing the law in order to pay low wages, you have a relatively more powerful (than an immigratin) citizen engaging in a scam which drives down wages for people who play by the rules.

[bahrbearian]

13. So If I want my lawn mowed, and the 13 teen year old neighbor

wants to do it ,, I should go to the Union hall first?

[Cocoa]

14. of course not

but if you were to ask if you wanted your house cleaned would you go to an agency that does their paperwork or would you get an undocumented cleaning person, I would answer go the legal route.

[bahrbearian]

16. I agree, hire legal workers,,punish the illegal employers.

[1932]

19. That's not under the table. It's contract employment and it's the

kid's job to report the income if it's above a couple thousand a year.

We're talking about people who work under the table on a much larger scale that does exceed limits for reporting income and on a scale that actually impacts prevailing wage rates.

[RB TexLa]

6. haven't you heard, in this country one is considered a human being the

other is not.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. Whites are "smart". Browns are "illegal".

Besides, true-blue, salt of the eath, American workers, avidly believe in "the rule of law"....except when it applies to them.

[nealmhughes]

9. Economically, there is no difference.

Legally the only difference is that one might pay taxes and the other not (a person without a legal right to work/live in the country might have forged papers or the employer just not be up on the requirements and a legal fiction exist where the taxes are paid as if to a legal employee).

Both might be considered two separate "underground" economies.

In one instance, the person who is paid in cash and not an official employee with witholding, etc. but should be reporting the income from a freelance job vs. the person who does not have a legal right to work, but still is employed as a "regular" employee, only usually at substandard wages and with no legal evidence of the employment: also a member of the "underground economy."

The main difference is that the free lancer who wishes to avoid taxes can get caught and the consequences can be dire. My sister's sister-in-law has a sister whose husband had been working off the books for 25 years as a travelling bulldozer operator: Lincoln SUV, house with a pool, a wife and a baby. He died suddenly in New Orleans doing some work. When his widow went to apply for benefits for herself and the baby, it was revealed that he had not paid any federal or state taxes in 25 years and that he did not have the 40 quarters for being vested in the SS program. The state had mercy and gave her and the baby food stamps. The SUV and the house with the pool are gone and the IRS has a huge lien on his estate. Why? He didn't like to pay taxes...considered it a protection racket. I call it the price of civilization.

[melnjones]

10. Frequently illegals DO pay taxes...

Often illegal immigrants DO pay income taxes...they just have an illegal SSN, which means they cannot file to get a refund. They end up paying more than their share. How do we then compare illegals who do pay taxes to American citizens who don't?

[nealmhughes]

17. Please note my first paragraph, in which I mention those who do pay taxes.

[sam sarrha]

18. they are both sub sets of 'What part of illegal dont you understand'.

it is a tragic situation, but the Fascist corporations are to blame, along with psychopathic murderers the like of Negroponte and Rumsfeld.. and poppy Bu$h

in counseling there is a primary given..'the genesis of a problem usually has nothing to do with the resolution of that problem'.

we have to consider the consequences of amnesty, the amnesty that RayGun initiated is the cause of this problem, along with the likes of the Bu$ crime family and Negroponte types destroying the economies of central and south america and mexico.. creating the poverty that is being exported here to raise the standard of living for the have it alls there.

if we give amnesty to the present illegals we will have to deal with an extra 50% population increase in the next 20 years.. we dont have the infrastructure to assimilate them.. property values will increase astronomically.. the rich will scoop up all the middle class has, which they will spend just trying to survive a couple more years.

farmland necessary to feed the nation will be built over with housing.. and we must consider the catastrophic effects on the economy due to global warming.. which will send many more across the boarder when famine hits the southern americas.

there are going to be some hard decissions to make.. but it looks like we the people wont have a hand in making them.. the Fascist porporations and politicians will screw that up for us

[Freedom_Aflaim]

12. Its not illegal to hire someone for a casual task

There is no law that requires you to check citizenship, nor do you report payments under $600.

Hiring someone for a job is different. SSN withholding, I9 forms etc.

[Gman]

15. Beside the fact that

an illegal will work for a fraction of what the illegal works, anyone you hire like that can be considered a contractor. As long as you comply with the rules for contractors and you don't pay them more than (I think it's) $600 in a year, you don't have to file a 1099-Misc for that person. Now it is up to the person to report the income theirself. But I think that's the rules. I believe you may have to have an I-9 on file, but maybe not for day work.

[eeyore]

22. In my experience only large companies will bother with a 1099

I have received 1099s, but normally only from larger companies and universities. You are correct about the $600 rule.

The guys who stand on the corners here do not work for less than minimum wage. They actually are more savvy than most people would give them credit for, and will drive a pretty hard bargain. The problem, of course, is that they have no recourse if the person hiring them turns out to be a total bastard.

I know from experience, however, that it can be next to impossible to find a legal citizen to move a pile of bricks, dig a trench or most other manual labor intensive work. I don't hire anyone whose not licensed for liability reasons, which does cost me more, but I just don't need to think about the consequences of someone getting hurt without insurance.

I do think that many illegal workers are wary of getting taken advantage of, and are careful who they work for. They know what labor is worth, and know that there are lots of jobs that will pay them at least minimum wage if not more.

[pitohui]

25. well you are a criminal no offense it's a technical description

you committed a crime to evade taxes and like many if not most criminals you think "everyone" does it and if "everyone" does it then somehow it becomes OK

everyone does not do it

i report all money i earn, even when paid in cash, i am not a liar or a cheat

believe it or not, i would guess the majority of people do NOT lie or cheat but we all tend to think we are the average joe, i suppose

there is no difference in attitude to justify, if you commit a crime, you need to do the time

[readmoreoften]

27. Hiring a "work-for-hire" isn't illegal, that's ridiculous.

It's not lying either. I'm a filmmaker. It's not an "everyday" thing, it's a year event usually. If I hire a make-up artist on set and pay her $500, I'm not doing something illegal. It's up to her to report the money on her taxes. She's a freelance artist!

If you hire a webmaster to build you a website, that person doesn't fill out a W-2 and you're not their employer.

But if you hire a kid to clean the toilets and kitchen of your restaurant every day from midnight to 4am, and you do it under-the-table, you're breaking the law. Hire the same kid to landscape your lawn, or restaurant's lawn, and it's legal.

[pitohui]

28. tax evasion as the OP admitted to is a criminal offense

read the original post again, he admitted to multiple counts of tax evasion, i don't suppose working as a waiter he was in a position to hire anyone but he does confess to evading taxes while working as such


all criminals justify crime as being OK because "everyone does it" but as an honest person i resent being classed with the criminals

and guess what, everyone does NOT do it, if you do, knock it off


by the way, if you pay anyone more than $600 in a year and you don't properly report it, you TOO are a criminal altho you will likely experience civil penalties (fines) rather than jail, you have still committed an offense and one day it WILL catch up to you if you insist on breaking the law repeatedly

honesty is the best policy in the long run in my humble opinion

[readmoreoften]

30. And not-reporting your tips as a waiter has nothing to do w UTT jobs.

He was working as a waiter. Whether or not he reported his tips to the IRS has nothing to do with the original paradigm of illegal worker vs under the table worker.

[readmoreoften]

29. So, who on the indie film set goes to jail for paying a gaffer $600?

the executive producer, the producers, the director, the writer?

We're not talking about a corporation here, we're talking about a conglomeration of individuals who throw their talent and money into a one time project?

Certainly a sub-chapter s corporation or an LLC would have to report payments over $600, but work-for-hires are different.

[treestar]

31. Not different at all; still "illegal" labor

We need to quit trying to control who hires who. It's too much to enforce and just hobbles the economy.

The citizens who work under the table still benefit in some ways from everyone else's taxes, too. Though they can't be deported.